Ian Ritchie, saviour of the European club rugby competition

by quinsforever Tue 15 Apr 2014 - 19:29

First topic message reminder :

Interesting article on main bbc sport page, can't paste link from mobile site...but I thought our Celtic cousins would particularly enjoy this quote from Ian Ritchie towards the end of the article...

"We spent a lot of time with Mark McCafferty and Bruce Craig at Premiership Rugby, and there was a lot of imagination and creativity coming out of them to try and secure this deal as well. So you have to look at this as a team approach.

"I think it's been well worth the effort. We have a very exciting competition ahead, and a great future for the game in Europe."

by quinsforever Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:05

LOL.

6n combined with RWC performance makes the case clearer. Although it's not just Italy or Scotland that fail to make it out of their group stages... Wink

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:08

HammerofThunor wrote:Italy are the most consistent team, followed by Scotland. I think Italy have been either 5th or 6th for all but two years in the last 15 years. Similar for Scotland. That's pretty darn consistent.

Italian rugby has taken a such a huge step backwards this year its scarcely believable. In the space of a year they went from nearly beating the likes of AUS and ENG to conceding 50 poinst against them.

by ME-109 Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:09

quinsforever wrote:Best win ratio. And significantly best net points difference. Over 15 yrs I would say that is quite some margin. And if u reduce the timescale the English relative performance looks better and better actually.

In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.....

If you reduce the timescale the 3 GS by Wales looks impressive. If you increase the timescale the fact that France didnt win their first GS until 1968 that makes their record pretty impressive....at the end of the day if you like losing and having pretty statistics England look er...ok..but if you take GS its 3 all to Wales and France and 1 all to Ireland and England or 5 championships to France (pretty consistent), 4 all England and Wales (only one GS for England) and 2 for Ireland...hmm...all points to across La Manche wouldnt you say?

by quinsforever Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:09

Leinsters 20k+ per game support stems from HC success over the last 7 years or whatever it is. U obviously can't see that this is nothing to do with nor any indication of the viability of commercial attractiveness of the rabo, most of whose teams have no HC success to boost their bums on seats.

by ME-109 Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:11

Crikey didnt realise the English championships were towards the start of the century...kind of goes in line with their club performances in the HEC. Will be interesting to see if the new deal helps the clubs any....

by Sin é Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:11

quinsforever wrote:Best win ratio. And significantly best net points difference. Over 15 yrs I would say that is quite some margin. And if u reduce the timescale the English relative performance looks better and better actually.

Quite some margins me arse!

England lost 23 games. France lost 23 games. Ireland lost 24.

France has won 3 Grand Slams in that period and 5 Championships.

by quinsforever Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:14

I know all those stats by heart ME.

Reality is, there are only 2 NH sides who present a real threat at RWCs. England and France. U know it and I know it.

by ME-109 Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:15

quinsforever wrote:Leinsters 20k+ per game support stems from HC success over the last 7 years or whatever it is. U obviously can't see that this is nothing to do with nor any indication of the viability of commercial attractiveness of the rabo, most of whose teams have no HC success to boost their bums on seats.

Careful Quins you are really getting out of your depth now even more so than usual. Leinster have done an excellent job at cultivating their support regardless of the HC in how they have grown their business, Munster should be getting the same numbers but dont because commercially we made some big mistakes...having said that . I guess the big crowds at Leinster/Munster/Ulster games are all to do with the HC even though we rarely meet, Games with the Ospreys, Scarlets etc are always big crowd pullers...again nothing to do with the HC...

by quinsforever Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:16

Tries scored. Average points difference per game.

by quinsforever Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:17

What were Leinsters avg crowds during rabo before they won an HC?

by ME-109 Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:18

quinsforever wrote:I know all those stats by heart ME.

Reality is, there are only 2 NH sides who present a real threat at RWCs. England and France. U know it and I know it.

Well the English are trying to buy the HC but wont be able to buy the RWC...last time I checked it was Wales and France who were the biggest threat...

by quinsforever Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:22

Are u crazed? Wales and France better bets than England at a home RWC? Go to a bookies. Or maybe look at the IRB rankings? Or ask any ABs, Saffers or Aus test players.

Or not, and stick with your anyone but England mentality.

by Sin é Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:22

quinsforever wrote:Leinsters 20k+ per game support stems from HC success over the last 7 years or whatever it is. U obviously can't see that this is nothing to do with nor any indication of the viability of commercial attractiveness of the rabo, most of whose teams have no HC success to boost their bums on seats.

Leinster v Munster in aviva 51.7K
Watched by 750K (TG4) on tv (29 March)

Meanwhile, back in the English Premiership, they were having their London derbys.

Quins v London Irish - 14,800
Wasps v Saracens - 6,449

Midland derby
Saints v Leicester 13,459
Total at these games = 34,708. TV viewers 151K (according to BARB).

I'd say that rugby looks a lot healthier in Ireland than it does in England going on those figures Wink

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:22

quinsforever wrote:Leinsters 20k+ per game support stems from HC success over the last 7 years or whatever it is. U obviously can't see that this is nothing to do with nor any indication of the viability of commercial attractiveness of the rabo, most of whose teams have no HC success to boost their bums on seats.

Of course! the HC is the biggest club tournament in the world. If you can't grow your support while having success in that tournament something is really wrong with your club.
But your making a totally different point now. Your point was that teams don;t care about that rabo which is obviously false. Don't tell us what competitions we do and don't care about.

by ME-109 Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:25

Look at Glasgow...best crowd of the season last weekend against Ulster....and all for the Rabo...

by quinsforever Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:25

I don't care about the rabo. I enjoy top14 and AP.

Rabo teams who care more about HC haven't had to care about rabo too much as they qualify automatically.

by Sin é Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:26

quinsforever wrote:Are u crazed? Wales and France better bets than England at a home RWC? Go to a bookies. Or maybe look at the IRB rankings? Or ask any ABs, Saffers or Aus test players.

Or not, and stick with your anyone but England mentality.

You will be dropping like stones down the rankings after your next 3 international encounters Very Happy

The ABs won't get the trots back home!

by ME-109 Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:27

quinsforever wrote:I don't care about the rabo. I enjoy top14 and AP.

Rabo teams who care more about HC haven't had to care about rabo too much as they qualify automatically.

oh hang on its QF... Whistle

by quinsforever Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:28

Sin e. Reality is even if we lose it's not gojng to hurt our ranking. At all. It's all in the maths. And if we get one win in NZ we will zip up to 3rd comfortably.

by ME-109 Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:30

Sin é wrote:
quinsforever wrote:Are u crazed? Wales and France better bets than England at a home RWC? Go to a bookies. Or maybe look at the IRB rankings? Or ask any ABs, Saffers or Aus test players.

Or not, and stick with your anyone but England mentality.

You will be dropping like stones down the rankings after your next 3 international encounters The ABs won't get the trots back home!

Oh bless...its the ABE argument. All that was being pointed out were the facts that France have won more championships and GS, and are even with Wales...you said England and France were the only ones capable of challenging for the WC and it was just pointed out that Wales and France did in the last one....

anything else?

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:31

quinsforever wrote:I don't care about the rabo. I enjoy top14 and AP.

Rabo teams who care more about HC haven't had to care about rabo too much as they qualify automatically.

So if Leinster haven't had to care about the Rabo then why have we been in the last 4 finals and getting 20k plus average attendances?

by quinsforever Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:32

U suggested wales and France were most likely to threaten in the next one.

I begged to differ.

by Sin é Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:39

quinsforever wrote:I don't care about the rabo. I enjoy top14 and AP.

Rabo teams who care more about HC haven't had to care about rabo too much as they qualify automatically.

6 English teams qualify automatically.
Only 1 Irish, 1 Scottish, 1 Welsh & 1 Italian team qualifies automatically.

As well as that - Scarlets are 6th in the Pro12 and won't qualify for the Heineken Cup like the 6th place English club.

Scarlets are better than Sales Sharks.

by ME-109 Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:40

`Nope... I said last time the cup was on Wales and France were the NH reps...for the next one...who knows, last time I checked as well IReland had won the recent 6ns....

by Sin é Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:44

quinsforever wrote:Sin e. Reality is even if we lose it's not gojng to hurt our ranking. At all. It's all in the maths. And if we get one win in NZ we will zip up to 3rd comfortably.

What will hurt your rankings though is if Wales, France or Ireland have a win on their tours.
Its like this, if they move up, you move down - you don't stay in the same spot.

Edit - Ireland are going to Argentina so could pick up a few points there.

by Sin é Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 0:48

quinsforever wrote:U suggested wales and France were most likely to threaten in the next one.

I begged to differ.

Good luck to you getting out of your pool with Australia & Wales (even if you are at home)!

by quinsforever Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 1:00

Sin e the irb rankings are points based so absolutely do NOT mean a team has to go up or down. If NZ lose to For example, NZ will still be top but the gap will have narrowed. It's maths innit. Not a ladder.

by quinsforever Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 1:03

ME that's not what u said. Go back and read what u wrote. Maybe in your mind it was clear. Less so when read by someone else.

And anyway regarding the last RWC, England were improving and got knocked out by a France that had lost 2 pool matches but went on to get robbed by NZ in the final. So hardly a ringing endorsement of France's quality or England's inferiority. Did Ireland make it out of the group stage in this one?

by Sin é Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 1:09

quinsforever wrote:Sin e the irb rankings are points based so absolutely do NOT mean a team has to go up or down. If NZ lose to For example, NZ will still be top but the gap will have narrowed. It's maths innit. Not a ladder.

If England stays static at 85.68 and say Ireland (82.13) wins both their matches (away wins), Ireland will move ahead of you.
Similarly with Wales & France if they have an away win.

by Sin é Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 1:14

quinsforever wrote:ME that's not what u said. Go back and read what u wrote. Maybe in your mind it was clear. Less so when read by someone else.

And anyway regarding the last RWC, England were improving and got knocked out by a France that had lost 2 pool matches but went on to get robbed by NZ in the final. So hardly a ringing endorsement of France's quality or England's inferiority. Did Ireland make it out of the group stage in this one?

Ireland beat Australia to top its pool at the last world cup. Only NH country to beat one of the Big 3.

by HammerofThunor Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 7:47

Sin é wrote:
quinsforever wrote:Sin e the irb rankings are points based so absolutely do NOT mean a team has to go up or down. If NZ lose to For example, NZ will still be top but the gap will have narrowed. It's maths innit. Not a ladder.

If England stays static at 85.68 and say Ireland (82.13) wins both their matches (away wins), Ireland will move ahead of you.
Similarly with Wales & France if they have an away win.

England will stay static (unless they win Shocked

).

Ireland on 82.13 and Argentina are on on 79.44 (with home advantage). So if Ireland win they will get less than 1 point (but let's say it's 1 and they thrash them so it's 1.5). For the next game the go would widen so Ireland would get less even if they thrash them. So let's say 1.5 again, just as a too larger, upper limit.

That would be and extra 3 points for Ireland, putting them on 85.13. So still behind England...so no, there is no way for Ireland the to ahead of England this summer. It would have to wait until the Autumn.

[I think it would be about 0.77 (1.11) for the first game]

by HammerofThunor Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 8:01

Sin é wrote:
quinsforever wrote:ME that's not what u said. Go back and read what u wrote. Maybe in your mind it was clear. Less so when read by someone else.

And anyway regarding the last RWC, England were improving and got knocked out by a France that had lost 2 pool matches but went on to get robbed by NZ in the final. So hardly a ringing endorsement of France's quality or England's inferiority. Did Ireland make it out of the group stage in this one?

Ireland beat Australia to top its pool at the last world cup. Only NH country to beat one of the Big 3.

England weren't given a chance as they were knocked out by 2nd at the same stage Ireland were knocked by 4th. Of course this doesn't mean squat in the real world but WTF does reality have to do with this place?

by nathan Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 10:04

Sin é wrote:
quinsforever wrote:Leinsters 20k+ per game support stems from HC success over the last 7 years or whatever it is. U obviously can't see that this is nothing to do with nor any indication of the viability of commercial attractiveness of the rabo, most of whose teams have no HC success to boost their bums on seats.

Leinster v Munster in aviva 51.7K
Watched by 750K (TG4) on tv (29 March)

Meanwhile, back in the English Premiership, they were having their London derbys.

Quins v London Irish - 14,800
Wasps v Saracens - 6,449

Midland derby
Saints v Leicester 13,459 <_ Considering their ground only holds this many people they couldn't of gotten any more.
Total at these games = 34,708. TV viewers 151K (according to BARB).

I'd say that rugby looks a lot healthier in Ireland than it does in England going on those figures

by nathan Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 10:05

Sin é wrote:
quinsforever wrote:I don't care about the rabo. I enjoy top14 and AP.

Rabo teams who care more about HC haven't had to care about rabo too much as they qualify automatically.

6 English teams qualify automatically.
Only 1 Irish, 1 Scottish, 1 Welsh & 1 Italian team qualifies automatically.

As well as that - Scarlets are 6th in the Pro12 and won't qualify for the Heineken Cup like the 6th place English club.

Scarlets are better than Sales Sharks.

Simply not true.

by geoff998rugby Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 10:08

Rumours circulating that the brave new world is getting knocked back by a number of potential sponsors - hence the reported delay till September in announcing

Will be very interesting in seeing the value of the final package

by nathan Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 10:09

geoff998rugby wrote:Rumours circulating that the brave new world is getting knocked back by a number of potential sponsors - hence the reported delay till September in announcing

Will be very interesting in seeing the value of the final package

You got any links to the rumours? sounds interesting.

by geoff998rugby Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 10:14

I'll try and get them

Both Diageo and Amlin have said they are not interested

So no Guiness then Sad

by nathan Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 10:17

geoff998rugby wrote:I'll try and get them

Both Diageo and Amlin have said they are not interested

So no Guiness then

I think Guiness have just renewed with the english premiership

by HammerofThunor Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 10:23

Just the beer sponsor, as they are with the RFU I think.

http://www.sportbusiness.com/sponsorship-insider/guinness-pours-premiership-rugby-extension

by nathan Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 10:38

Yeah didn't mean the main sponsor (Aviva)

by geoff998rugby Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 10:51

With the new competition there will be no main sponsor but a plan to have something like 5 - as I understand it Diageo have said no to any involvement

by Sin é Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 10:59

Surprising that Amlin are not interested since they do business on continental europe.

I'd imagine that alcohol companies would stay away from it if Heineken are having any involvement.

Its going to take a few years to get decent sponsors. At the RFU's Marketing conference, they were saying that companies plan their sponsorships about 4 years in advance.

by nathan Thu 24 Apr 2014 - 11:05

geoff998rugby wrote:With the new competition there will be no main sponsor but a plan to have something like 5 - as I understand it Diageo have said no to any involvement

ah cool, didn't realise that.

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