Barclays Premier League 13/14 Thread Part 'x'

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Post by GSC on Tue 06 May 2014, 10:51 am

First topic message reminder :

I wouldn't be upset, if it were limited to League 2 and below, and had a quota of English players with an age cap.
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Post by GSC on Tue 06 May 2014, 8:10 pm

You really doubt the power of brand United. I'd be surprised if they couldn't hold their own
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Post by Ent on Tue 06 May 2014, 8:12 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Ent wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Why would there be proper crowds? Who'd be interested in seeing Chelsea 'B' v Aston Villa 'B'?

Football would be in the bin.

You do realise once established it would be the likes of united/city/arsenal B vs Barnsley et al.

It's a great idea to have b teams, it is all about implementing it properly.

You do realise that, after a couple of years, the likes of United 'B' and Chelsea 'B' will hit the ceiling (the highest that they're allowed to ascend to is League 1) and they will be playing 46 glorified friendly matches?

It's a terrible, elitist idea, that would ruin the Football League.

It's a great idea, I think you are very shortsighted and doom mongering.

Not all the teams will get to league 1, I mean some of the 1st 11 players at the low end of the pl would struggle there.





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Post by Fernando on Tue 06 May 2014, 8:16 pm

Phil Jones off due to injured shoulder. Vidic on 0-0

Bad news for Jones if seriously damaged

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Post by Ent on Tue 06 May 2014, 8:16 pm

GSC wrote:You really doubt the power of brand United. I'd be surprised if they couldn't hold their own

Around 2000 go to see fc united every week at gigg lane.

I don't think there would be huge numbers but I think people underestimate the interest the bigger b sides would bring to the lower divisions.

Debut goal for Wilson!

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Post by Fernando on Tue 06 May 2014, 8:16 pm

United 1-0 Hull - Wilson

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Post by Ent on Tue 06 May 2014, 8:18 pm

Fernando wrote:Phil Jones off due to injured shoulder. Vidic on 0-0

Bad news for Jones if seriously damaged

He's made of glass, not a great quality for a hustle and bustle centre half.

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Post by Fernando on Tue 06 May 2014, 8:18 pm

Hull fans singing "Stand up if your in Europe"  Laugh  Can see Giggsy heading off into the sunset with Vidic tonight tbh.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 06 May 2014, 8:24 pm

Ent wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Ent wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Why would there be proper crowds? Who'd be interested in seeing Chelsea 'B' v Aston Villa 'B'?

Football would be in the bin.

You do realise once established it would be the likes of united/city/arsenal B vs Barnsley et al.

It's a great idea to have b teams, it is all about implementing it properly.

You do realise that, after a couple of years, the likes of United 'B' and Chelsea 'B' will hit the ceiling (the highest that they're allowed to ascend to is League 1) and they will be playing 46 glorified friendly matches?

It's a terrible, elitist idea, that would ruin the Football League.

It's a great idea, I think you are very shortsighted and doom mongering.

Not all the teams will get to league 1, I mean some of the 1st 11 players at the low end of the pl would struggle there.

I think it's an idea that will destroy tradition, ruin the Football League and cripple the game in this country.

Some teams will get to League 1, that is inevitable. Those teams, reserve teams, will be taking the places of other genuine football clubs whilst diluting the value of the competition. The English Football League is the greatest of its kind in the world; throwing in 'B' teams and the like will completely take that away.

I'm not shortsighted, the idea is. It's not about the national team, it's about something that starts with "mon" and ends in "ey'. What, in the name of Wellington's footwear, will happen, say in fifteen years time, when a log-jam of seven or eight Premier League 'B' sides clog up League One? Have you thought of that? Has Greg Dyke?

Of course not. I suppose teams finishing ninth, in that scenario, will get promotion to the Championship.

What a farcial idea.

And about the attendance, I personally couldn't give a toss if United 'B' attracted 30,000 fans. It would still be a bad idea for lower-league teams, for tradition, and for all the things we can still hold dear in this country with regards to the national game.

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Post by Ent on Tue 06 May 2014, 8:35 pm

Tradition isn't an argument - I'm sorry.

We'd still have 3 divisions, 22 team top division, 2 points for a win, back passes, no pl, one team in Europe etc if we stuck with "tradition".

The English football league structure exists in this format because of the dense population and land mass, smaller professional/semi pro teams in bigger countries couldn't afford the travelling involved if similar structures existed in other countries - it's a practicality not a badge of honour.

The implementation needs to be thought out carefully to avoid such a problem as clogging up of the league. However your dear is unlikely, players will have to be registered to appear for that side much in the way they do for a 1st team - it would be a commitment and not a case of international star a or b isn't in the squad today send them to league 1 for a game.

That and some big clubs are in and end up in league 1, would be very competitive with a b team in my opinion.

It's a very good idea and just needs implemented properly.

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Post by GSC on Tue 06 May 2014, 8:38 pm

I think it needs a lot of discussion before it's workable but tradition should never halt progress
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Post by Ent on Tue 06 May 2014, 8:45 pm

Tradition shouldn't even be mentioned - there have been so many changes to football in Britain and the rest of the world in the last 25 years it is laughable to bring it up.

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Post by GSC on Tue 06 May 2014, 8:47 pm

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting change
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 06 May 2014, 8:48 pm

You're so wrong, Ent. You show a complete lack of understanding of football beyond a elite sphere.

It will be good for the big teams though. The B Team can garner more sponsorship opportunities for the elite teams to prosper ahead of anyone else. And thats what we want.

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Post by Ent on Tue 06 May 2014, 8:51 pm

I presume you disagree with the formation of the premier league then too dolph?

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 06 May 2014, 8:53 pm

It isnt as fundamentally disrespectful of other clubs as this is. Not that I am a massive fan of what has happened to the competitiveness of the league or the agenda of football clubs due to the Premier League era

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 06 May 2014, 8:56 pm

GSC wrote:Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting change
Which makes it all the more ridiculous the FA continue to neglect the real problem, the lack of proper coaches
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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Tue 06 May 2014, 8:59 pm

Ent wrote:Tradition isn't an argument - I'm sorry.

We'd still have 3 divisions, 22 team top division, 2 points for a win, back passes, no pl, one team in Europe etc if we stuck with "tradition".

The English football league structure exists in this format because of the dense population and land mass, smaller professional/semi pro teams in bigger countries couldn't afford the travelling involved if similar structures existed in other countries - it's a practicality not a badge of honour.

The implementation needs to be thought out carefully to avoid such a problem as clogging up of the league. However your dear is unlikely, players will have to be registered to appear for that side much in the way they do for a 1st team - it would be a commitment and not a case of international star a or b isn't in the squad today send them to league 1 for a game.

That and some big clubs are in and end up in league 1, would be very competitive with a b team in my opinion.

It's a very good idea and just needs implemented properly.

i agree 100%

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Post by Ent on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:00 pm

You are 25?

How so you know about the competitiveness of any other era?
In the 80s Liverpool had the most money, set te transfer records etc and won 6 leagues, 2 fa cups and 4 league cups.

People romanticise far too often about past events.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:02 pm

I honestly prefer our league system to the performance of the England team. I am much more interested in the existence of a dramatic Bristol Rovers relegation rather than them playing "BIG TEAM B" who literally couldn't care where they finish. Think of Bournemouth a few years ago. Swansea. Wigan. Real football teams with real fans.

Let alone the fact that if Chelsea have a full B team capable of playing in League Two then why would any youngster stay at West Ham or Palace when they could go out to a team who doesnt actually give a s**t if they're any good or not.

It's big business ideas that hurt the progression of our youngsters in the first place.

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Post by Ent on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:04 pm

Wilson double on debut!

What a miss from fellaini though.

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Post by GSC on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:04 pm

Incredibly naive to think simply improving coaches solves everything. They have a responsibility to consider a range of options including that.
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Post by Duty281 on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:04 pm

Ah...125 years of the greatest football league in the world.

Let's just throw it away for the sake of elitist, monetary ideas.

Can't wait to see Manchester United 'B' versus Arsenal 'B' in League Two with loads of empty seats and no atmosphere.. Hey, it's progress! And it's somehow going to mean that England will advance further in major tournaments.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:05 pm

Ent wrote:You are 25?

How so you know about the competitiveness of any other era?
In the 80s Liverpool had the most money, set te transfer records etc and won 6 leagues, 2 fa cups and 4 league cups.

People romanticise far too often about past events.

Welcome to reading. Welcome to conversation.

People are far too easily driven by their selfish whims. How did Chelsea and Man City break the monopoly? A bucket load of money. How did West Ham nearly win the league in 85/86 smart building across the club with a team of talented players. The only way any team that hasnt won the Premier League (or Liverpool) is going to win it now is some rich f**k with more money than sense. I find that to be miserable.


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Post by GSC on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:05 pm

Odd I didn't hear outrage when a rule was passed to allow big clubs to pick up young talent for next to nothing
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:06 pm

GSC wrote:Incredibly naive to think simply improving coaches solves everything. They have a responsibility to consider a range of options including that.

B Teams is top of that list? Do they really think thats what has won Spain some trophies? I wonder how these kids get good enough to play in a competitive league

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:06 pm

GSC wrote:Odd I didn't hear outrage when a rule was passed to allow big clubs to pick up young talent for next to nothing

Where were you looking?

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Post by GSC on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:10 pm

B teams are part of that list.

What you expected them to show up, agree on coaches then go to the pub.

And if we're being honest the rationale for better coaches is also countries like Spain have them.
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Post by Ent on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:17 pm

You could have chosen some better examples, a welsh team and a rugby league town with a rich owner (check how massively the attendance of this real club jumped on beig promoted to the pl).

Promotion and relegation would still happen.

Youngsters would stay at west ham et al for the reasons they still do. You seriously reckon a youngster would leave a pl side to play in a league one side for a clubs b team?

Fellaini, one of the worst players I've seen in a united shirt.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:18 pm

To be fair, in all this, it does depend how its implemented. But I don't see any reason why they get to start where they want. English football would benefit commercially for the inclusion of Celtic and Rangers too. I don't see where that can be opposed if youre happy to throw a B Team in someone elses place

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Post by GSC on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:19 pm

They aren't going to open themselves up to a lawsuit by bumping a team.
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:21 pm

Ent wrote:You could have chosen some better examples, a welsh team and a rugby league town with a rich owner (check how massively the attendance of this real club jumped on beig promoted to the pl).

Promotion and relegation would still happen.

Youngsters would stay at west ham et al for the reasons they still do. You seriously reckon a youngster would leave a pl side to play in a league one side for a clubs b team?

Fellaini, one of the worst players I've seen in a united shirt.

Well of course they would. Why stay in West Ham's academy when you can play for Arsenal's B Team academy? After all, the B team is securing our young players are better footballers.

Not sure why a Welsh team backs up your point. I could bring up so many clubs who have jumped up though. I don't see why clubs with 100 years existence, why clubs who are fighting financially to run their business for the good of their fans, why these clubs should be brushed aside for the minimal good of the national team.

Ive heard nothing so far that doesnt just see the rich getting richer.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:23 pm

GSC wrote:They aren't going to open themselves up to a lawsuit by bumping a team.

So they extend the league? Or they start these teams at the bottom of the food chain?

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Post by Ent on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:27 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Ent wrote:You could have chosen some better examples, a welsh team and a rugby league town with a rich owner (check how massively the attendance of this real club jumped on beig promoted to the pl).

Promotion and relegation would still happen.

Youngsters would stay at west ham et al for the reasons they still do. You seriously reckon a youngster would leave a pl side to play in a league one side for a clubs b team?

Fellaini, one of the worst players I've seen in a united shirt.

Well of course they would. Why stay in West Ham's academy when you can play for Arsenal's B Team academy? After all, the B team is securing our young players are better footballers.

Not sure why a Welsh team backs up your point. I could bring up so many clubs who have jumped up though. I don't see why clubs with 100 years existence, why clubs who are fighting financially to run their business for the good of their fans, why these clubs should be brushed aside for the minimal good of the national team.

Ive heard nothing so far that doesnt just see the rich getting richer.

Players aren't just free to up sticks and leave. They could just leave for said bigger club now - I don't think anything would change from that point of view.

So what if it suits the big teams?

Cardiff are getting 65 million quid for abject failure this season based on the big teams successes.

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Post by Mat on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:27 pm

Wilson now scored more than RVW this season. Chin up eh Olly

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:28 pm

So what if it suits the big teams.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:30 pm

Good to see the majority of opinion on the BBC site is sensible, which just about maintains my sanity.

Equally good to hear, in all probability, that this shambolic idea will be rejected tomorrow.

Throw it in the bin, just like game number 39.

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Post by Ent on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:33 pm

Good finish from rvp, looks sharp.

This referee has been terrible, missed myler stamping on januzaj.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:35 pm

Ent wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Ent wrote:You could have chosen some better examples, a welsh team and a rugby league town with a rich owner (check how massively the attendance of this real club jumped on beig promoted to the pl).

Promotion and relegation would still happen.

Youngsters would stay at west ham et al for the reasons they still do. You seriously reckon a youngster would leave a pl side to play in a league one side for a clubs b team?

Fellaini, one of the worst players I've seen in a united shirt.

Well of course they would. Why stay in West Ham's academy when you can play for Arsenal's B Team academy? After all, the B team is securing our young players are better footballers.

Not sure why a Welsh team backs up your point. I could bring up so many clubs who have jumped up though. I don't see why clubs with 100 years existence, why clubs who are fighting financially to run their business for the good of their fans, why these clubs should be brushed aside for the minimal good of the national team.

Ive heard nothing so far that doesnt just see the rich getting richer.

Players aren't just free to up sticks and leave. They could just leave for said bigger club now - I don't think anything would change from that point of view.

So what if it suits the big teams?

Cardiff are getting 65 million quid for abject failure this season based on the big teams successes.

exactly

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Post by CFCNick on Tue 06 May 2014, 9:57 pm

Duty281 wrote:Ah...125 years of the greatest football league in the world.

Let's just throw it away for the sake of elitist, monetary ideas.

Can't wait to see Manchester United 'B' versus Arsenal 'B' in League Two with loads of empty seats and no atmosphere.. Hey, it's progress! And it's somehow going to mean that England will advance further in major tournaments.

So I take it you've never been to a League 2 game? There is loads of empty seats and next to no atmosphere. League 1 is hardly a step up and I went to see Coventry at the Ricoh whilst they were protesting the owners. Even in protest the atmosphere was crap because they had 11,000 people in a 30,000 sweater stadium.

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Post by PaulHv2 on Tue 06 May 2014, 10:02 pm

I've been going to watch the lower leagues for years and most places I've been have a great atmosphere.
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Post by CFCNick on Tue 06 May 2014, 10:06 pm

Yeah it depends where you and what time of year and the current form/state of the team.

Majority of League 2 atmospheres are Love sacks.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 06 May 2014, 10:09 pm

I watched Gillingham for years across half the league and the atmosphere was always brilliant, far better than half the morgue's in the premier league.... stamford bridge for instance. I went there in 2000 and us away fans were the ones making all the noise, same story at highbury in 2002, the atmosphere when they came back from 1 down against Sheffield Wednesday was brilliant in 2000 too.

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Post by PaulHv2 on Tue 06 May 2014, 10:12 pm

Gillingham always had a fantastic atmosphere HH, brought a good number of away fans to Wrexham when they came as well.
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Post by Duty281 on Tue 06 May 2014, 10:12 pm

Fine, ignore the atmosphere.

Focus on how the greatest Football League in the world will be greatly reduced in stature and meaning. At how 125 years of history will be given the elbow.

And for what? Money.

Pathetic. Won't ever see the light of day...not yet, anyway.

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Post by Hero on Tue 06 May 2014, 10:19 pm

What I'd like to see is not B clubs so to speak but some form of feeder clubs in which Premier League clubs can send their youngsters out to local lower clubs and keep them financially solvent.
I'm a Macc Town fan, the club is 140 years old this season but now survive month by month on cup runs and club initiatives such as fans playing in friendlies etc. One week of Rooney's wage would put us in the black and if it took selling our soul to City or Utd to stay afloat and take a few of their youngsters on (when in general there's only about 5 players we keep each summer as we can't afford the wage bill over the summer) then I'd happily do so.

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Post by GSC on Tue 06 May 2014, 10:26 pm

And the Football League is all for it if a reasonable compromise on where they'd fit is found.

On suiting the big clubs, these days you need them to get any traction.
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Post by mystiroakey on Tue 06 May 2014, 10:27 pm

Its a tough one but ultimately its a grind on the lower teams and there is no incentive for those teams to create skillfull players.

Gayle is a story that is rarely seen.

2 years ago he scored a hatrick for a conference team
yesterday he scored 2 against liverpool in the PL

There should be 100's of players like that coming through the ranks- but sadly the best ones are picked up by top sides young and the lesser ones dont get to learn the correct skill sets to be able to play in the PL.

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Post by GSC on Tue 06 May 2014, 10:31 pm

And tbf, the success of Spain is largely down to Barca with a sprinkling of Real. There's something to be said for consistency in style and teammates during development I feel.
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 06 May 2014, 10:34 pm

You gotta do it to suit football league teams. If they do it in a way that actually shows respect, more respect than some of the tone flung around here, then I can't have any qualms.

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Post by GSC on Tue 06 May 2014, 10:34 pm

Again you talk about quality coaching, is a prospect more likely to get that at a PL B team or your typical league 2 side.

I can't agree with a system that sees a club get shafted to fit them in initially, but otherwise, tradition can't really be an excuse when traditional English football is lagging behind the rest of the world.
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