RP12 Semi Final 2: Leinster v Ulster, 17 May

First topic message reminder :

Leinster Rugby v Ulster Rugby

Saturday 17 May 2014, KO: 19:00
Royal Dublin Society

Live on RTE/BBC NI/S4C

Referee: Leighton Hodges (WRU., 40th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Ian Davies (WRU), Neil Paterson (SRU)
Citing Commissioner: Paul Minto (SRU)
TMO: Gareth Simmonds (WRU)

A. Teams:

I. Leinster


Kearney R, McFadden, O'Driscoll, D'Arcy, Kearney D, Gopperth, Reddan;
Healy, Cronin, Moore, Toner, Roux, Ruddock, Jennings, Heaslip.

Dundon, McGrath, Ross, Cullen, O'Brien, McGrath, Madigan, Kirchner

II. Ulster

C Gilroy, T Bowe, J Payne, D Cave, A Trimble, P Jackson, R Pienaar;

C Black, R Best, R Lutton, J Muller (Captain), I Henderson, R Diack, C Henry, R Wilson.

Replacements: R Herring, A Warwick, A Macklin, D Tuohy, S Doyle, P Marshall, J McKinney, L Marshall.  

B. Previous Championships

I. Leinster

Three (2001-2002; 2007-2008; 2012-2013)

Playoff Record - Played 4, Won 4:
2010 RDS: beat Munster 16-6.
2011 RDS: beat Ulster 18-3.
2012 RDS: beat Warriors 19-15.
2013 RDS: beat Warriors 17-15.

II. Ulster

One (2005-2006)

Playoff Record - Played 2, Won 1, Lost 1:
2011 RDS: lost to Leinster 3-18.
2013 Ravenhill: beat Scarlets 28-17.

C. Form - head to head:

36 Played 36
26 Wins 7
7 Losses 26
3 Draws 3
78 Tries 44
53 Conversions 32
106 Penalties 94
5 Drop Goals 3
829 Points 575
28 Avg. Age 24

D. Form - this season & last:

Fri 21 December 2012, 19:05
Ulster Rugby 27 - 19 Leinster Rugby
Ravenhill

Sat 30 March 2013, 18:15
Leinster Rugby 18 - 22 Ulster Rugby
Royal Dublin Society

Sat 25 May 2013 (Grand Final), 16:45
Ulster Rugby 18 - 24 Leinster Rugby
Royal Dublin Society

Sat 28 December 2013, 18:45
Leinster Rugby 19 - 6 Ulster Rugby
Royal Dublin Society

Fri 2 May 2014, 19:30
Ulster Rugby 20 - 22 Leinster Rugby
Ravenhill

I just have to say, I was at the game, so only just saw some clips. The way the ref allowed Kearney to compete for that ball at the end whilst completely horizontal is an absolute joke.

Referees should be held accountable by some body or other, or have their pay deducted in instances of by errors of judgement.

That sickens me.

a) he was the tackler and didn't release
b) He was not supporting his own weight and basically lying on Payne
c) It was no more that two meters right in front of the refs face in plain view

Ah, I don't think so. The dark arts have a place in rugby- makes it more exciting and gives the game another dimension that can be infuriating, but also brilliant!

By that logic , In 50 years time we could have the game run by cyborgs incapable of error. That sounds like no fun at all to me! The offence was the sort of thing that would have got more attention and subsequently penalised if ulster were at home. Leinster were always going to have an edge at the rds, and deserved the edge finishing first in the league

Congrats leinsterites. The better team won IMO (if not the most dominant). In truth I don't think either were at top gear but you got the points and we didn't. Best of luck in the final. I will be backing you but I won't be overly annoyed with a Glasgow win.

Totally disagree Kunu, I want to watch a sport where the winner is decided by who is more physical or skillful, not who can get away with the most.

And I'd be more than happy to see my own team penalised for their dark arts in equal measure.

Its like any set of laws, people only take the risks in breaking them if the chances of getting caught are slim, or the punishment is lenient.

Just watching the full game now. Henderson is immense.

I really don't like the way we are playing this year. I'll give MOC another season to see if he adjusts the balance between defence and attack.

If he doesn't have us playing decent rugby by mid-season, he's dust. We wont have it. We are Leinster. Not Munster.

George Carlin wrote:

Gibson wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Leinster won't be in the final, Notch.

If you can get Pienaar and Afoa back, then Ulster will take them down - having watched the Leinster-Edinburgh game, I am fairly confident of that.

Ja Georgie?   

But I'm delighted its us two in the Final. As predicted back in Sept.

Bring a decent crowd this time will ye?  

On form and momentum, Id fancy Warriors to win it, but,  it's a real open  Final. No idea how it will pan out. But, if Glasgow win it,  I'll be the 1st one to congratulate a club and team who I feel fully deserve it,  after being so close over the last two years.   Glasgow define all that is good about the PRO12.

Believe.

Fair do's Gib my lad. And yes, you did predict it back in the autumn although with our incredibly weak start to the season, it's a real feat for us to have made it to the final this time.

A sign of a truly great team is the one that can still shut a game out despite not playing very well and that's Leinster all over. For all that your fans may complain about the new coach and lack of Sexton, the fact remains that you're here again. For balance though, this has to be the most beatable Leinster team I've seen for 5 years and it's definitely on. If the game is anything like last year's semi, they're going to have to bring in extra medical staff for the players because it's going to be brutal.

You can bet your pale, celtic petoot that we're going to be bringing a load of mental fans with us. I never, ever needed an excuse to go to Dublin. 10,000 Glasgwegians with a pass from their wives and husbands to go to Dublin for the weekend? What could possibly go wrong? I hope that you've got enough beer.

Still trying to.... ermmm.... persuade Mrs Schiz that we should postpone our annual holiday in the sun and savour the delights of Dublin in the springtime and join the burgeoning Warrior Nation in cheering a mighty Weegie victory. May be last man standing but we are good at that up here !   

Can't bring myself to watch the game again Gibbo but you are right. Henderson was the best lock on show. I would get him in green now and put to bed any notion of him at 6 (barring emergencies). He is putting in consistently good performances at lock now and he will only get better

Standulstermen wrote:Can't bring myself to watch the game again Gibbo but you are right. Henderson was the best lock on show. I would get him in green now and put to bed any notion of him at 6 (barring emergencies). He is putting in consistently good performances at lock now and he will only get better

Totally agree Stand. He's a beast, yet he's still  just a kid. Irish Lock for him. Watch out POC. Joe is watching. Its just great man. I want it all over the park and I want NO one safe. Don't give a schitt who they  play for. Munster even. Want the strongest possible Irish squad to gel under Schmidt.  Its what we both want really, if not all of us bro.

Believe.

Scmitz man,
Play yer missus this subliminally... Works a treat.

Drive her mad like... but ya.

Believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4asSbKhqAGM

Excellent Gibbo   

Was seriously impressed with Henderson. He is really classy. A word too for Toner though who has started making beastly tackles and was it him who sold the dummy and made a 30metre break?

Those 2 with POC, Tuohy and a fit again Ryan is a great lock selection and with Henderson's ability to play 6 too, great world cup options.

Jeysus, that was brown trousers stuff at the end. Nerves were in shreds. Hard luck Ulster, the atmosphere in the RDS was incredible, best travelling support this season (as it was last season).

I only saw the highlights of the Glasgow Munster game but it struck me how Glasgow celebrated making the final as if they'd already won it. Will their head be right on the 31st? This will be their first final, Leinsters 5th in a row.

Good question Mick. I would have been slightly worried about that, except a game happened last year which was formative for the club. It was the semi with Leinster and as every Glasgow player said afterwards, they felt that they lost that game because they just weren't as streetwise as their opposition. Every player and coach said that it wouldn't happen again for that reason and the results have born this out. It's practically the same team that bombed in the semis last year, except wiser, harder and stronger.

We've ground out tight wins against all opposition this season with no team left unbeaten over either the home or away matches. Our win record is starting to look good - more wins than any other team in the league this year (18) and the  current streak of 9 on the bounce is now a club record.

The other important game this season was losing 28-25 at the RDS in March - again, a game that we felt we should have won. Again, a check and a chastener. We have taken our lumps this season when required and the team has always responded.

We know what near misses feel like and I think the determination that it won't happen again is what Leinster should be concerned about.

re the Trimble tackle in the air. Do Leinster fans agree having seen the footage that McFadden did have one foot back on the ground before contact?

It may not be a popular opinion, but I'd far rather see our refs ask to see footage on the screens more often before making snap decisions.

Also, what if McFaddens studs had collided with Trimbles face? Is there nothing in the rulebook to stipulate how a player should jump so as to not endanger other players on the ground?

Mickado wrote:Jeysus, that was brown trousers stuff at the end. Nerves were in shreds. Hard luck Ulster, the atmosphere in the RDS was incredible, best travelling support this season (as it was last season).

I only saw the highlights of the Glasgow Munster game but it struck me how Glasgow celebrated making the final as if they'd already won it. Will their head be right on the 31st? This will be their first final, Leinsters 5th in a row.

That's a good point Mick (mind you you're usually good at making good points so I say this with no surprise), the emotional outpouring at beating Munster was like watching a team lift a trophy. You don't want to dot the ball down on the 22, you want to carry on all the way to the try line and I'm sure Glasgow will do just that. They'll be up for this like men possessed with the attitude that nobody will take this away from them. Taking things away from sides is something Leinster have done over and over and rising to the occasion is second nature to them. If Les Blues don't step up a gear I fear the silverware may well be on it's way to Weegieland. I will of course be backing Leinster, it's in my blood after all. I do however think that Glasgow side are an immovable object at the moment with depth and options we can only dream of.

George and Pete, I hope that didn't come across as condesending towards Glasgow, they've every right to release tension and celebrate after a hard fought and narrow semi final win.

There's absolutely no denying that on form they're favourites.

I've just had to "register my interest" on ticketmaster for a ticket for this one, 13k season tickets into a 9k allocation does not go!

Totally gutted by that result. Thought we were the better side over the 80minutes and had more than enough ball and chances to put Leinster away in the first half

Wasn't happy with the ref - felt he was one sided at times in his reffing of the breakdown allowing Leinster to go off their feet and kill their ball in their own 22 and penalising Ulster for the same.

Overall a great game and Leinster showed why they have won 5 trophies in the last few seasons - they may not be vintage but know how to win big games.

Not sure about Madigan being MOTM but he made a great impact. Their superiority in the scrum was a big factor in the game too.

From an Ulster perspective Gilroy had his best game all season, Jackson played well when he was on and apart from the troubles in the scrum its hard to fault the effort although Pienaar made a number of costly wrong decisions near Leinsters line.

Good luck to Leinster in the final. I think Glasgow are the team in form but the home advantage could be key.

I think overall Ulster will be disappointed with the season but can take positives that we were there or thereabouts in both competitions again.

There's a bit of rebuilding needed in the front 5 but plenty of quality in the back row and back line to bounce back next season.

[quote="Mickado"]George and Pete, I hope that didn't come across as condesending towards Glasgow, they've every right to release tension and celebrate after a hard fought and narrow semi final win.


You didn't at all Mick

Pete330v2 wrote:

Mickado wrote:George and Pete, I hope that didn't come across as condesending towards Glasgow, they've every right to release tension and celebrate after a hard fought and narrow semi final win.


You didn't at all Mick

No, not at all, Mick.

But jaysus, will you look at how close recent games have been:

Fri 23 Nov 12 - Glasgow Warriors 0 - 6 Leinster Rugby

Sat 23 March 13 - Leinster Rugby 22 - 17 Glasgow Warriors

Sat 11 May 13 - Leinster Rugby 17 - 15 Glasgow Warriors

Fri 20 Sept 13 - Glasgow Warriors 12 - 6 Leinster Rugby

Sat 1 March 14 - Leinster Rugby 28 - 25 Glasgow Warriors

6 points or less the difference in every game over the past 2 years.

The above, coupled with the fact that we are going to visit Casa O'Driscoll, means that I genuinely don't think we could possibly be described as favourites for this.

clivemcl wrote:re the Trimble tackle in the air. Do Leinster fans agree having seen the footage that McFadden did have one foot back on the ground before contact?

It may not be a popular opinion, but I'd far rather see our refs ask to see footage on the screens more often before making snap decisions.

Also, what if McFaddens studs had collided with Trimbles face? Is there nothing in the rulebook to stipulate how a player should jump so as to not endanger other players on the ground?

That was never a penalty. The player in the air makes contact back with the ground then they are there to be hit.

Equally the penalty for tackling a player in the air about 5 minutes before shouldn't have been a penalty either as both players were in the air with their arms out to catch the ball.

I find it interesting the complaints about hands in the ruck in the final phases of play when that is Henry/Wilson's party trick all game. Leinster won't get hands into the ruck against Glasgow because they seal off the ball without gettting pinged for having 1-2 support players off their feet at every breakdown.

Curious as well on this thread how the Leinster bench for this game would be 'inferior' for the final. Jack McGrath and Mike Ross are 'decent' enough prop replacements, Dundon is underated in the league and is a solid hooker replacement. I guess a 3 time heineken cup winning captain, pack leader and next years forwards coach as a lock replacement wouldn't add anything to a pack for the final 20-30 minutes of a cup game. Some lad called Sean O'Brien? Luke McGrath is probably our best scrum half and shouldn't be underestimated. Then we have a game changer in Madigan and some SA full back called Zane to bring on in the backs. Granted some of the injuries, esp DK, will rejig the bench around but I'd hardly write that bench off as inferior.

rodders wrote:Totally gutted by that result. Thought we were the better side over the 80minutes and had more than enough ball and chances to put Leinster away in the first half

Wasn't happy with the ref - felt he was one sided at times in his reffing of the breakdown allowing Leinster to go off their feet and kill their ball in their own 22 and penalising Ulster for the same.

Overall a great game and Leinster showed why they have won 5 trophies in the last few seasons - they may not be vintage but know how to win big games.

Not sure about Madigan being MOTM but he made a great impact. Their superiority in the scrum was a big factor in the game too.

From an Ulster perspective Gilroy had his best game all season, Jackson played well when he was on and apart from the troubles in the scrum its hard to fault the effort although Pienaar made a number of costly wrong decisions near Leinsters line.

Good luck to Leinster in the final. I think Glasgow are the team in form but the home advantage could be key.

I think overall Ulster will be disappointed with the season but can take positives that we were there or thereabouts in both competitions again.

There's a bit of rebuilding needed in the front 5 but plenty of quality in the back row and back line to bounce back next season.

I hope that wasn't Gilroy's best game of the season. Attacking wise the fella was brilliant, but defensive positioning was...ahem.... poor. Just look at the Madigan try, he was scrambling across the field like a winger corner flagging. Full back starting position should have been 12-15 yards more in field meaning he would have made the tackle and snuffed out that chance before the crowd stood from their seats.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
Equally the penalty for tackling a player in the air about 5 minutes before shouldn't have been a penalty either as both players were in the air with their arms out to catch the ball.

afraid that one, not sure if it was Dave or McFadden, was a penalty simply because he tackled when he didn't need to. Was cynical more than dangerous

rodders wrote:Wasn't happy with the ref - felt he was one sided at times in his reffing of the breakdown allowing Leinster to go off their feet and kill their ball in their own 22 and penalising Ulster for the same.

never rated Hodges and was poor all game, gave the example earlier in the thread about Ruddock joining the maul from the side and was told to leave at least 3 times in the end Hodges just gave up and didn't penalise him. Such a contrast to JP Doyle from Friday night in the Leicester/Northampton game

marty2086 wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
Equally the penalty for tackling a player in the air about 5 minutes before shouldn't have been a penalty either as both players were in the air with their arms out to catch the ball.

afraid that one, not sure if it was Dave or McFadden, was a penalty simply because he tackled when he didn't need to. Was cynical more than dangerous

He didn't go to tackle the player though. He jumped into the air to regain possession of the ball, same as the Ulster player was doing. If he had stayed on the ground and made contact I'd 100% agree however.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
Equally the penalty for tackling a player in the air about 5 minutes before shouldn't have been a penalty either as both players were in the air with their arms out to catch the ball.

afraid that one, not sure if it was Dave or McFadden, was a penalty simply because he tackled when he didn't need to. Was cynical more than dangerous

He didn't go to tackle the player though.  He jumped into the air to regain possession of the ball, same as the Ulster player was doing. If he had stayed on the ground and made contact I'd 100% agree however.

The problem was that he was shooting past the Ulster player and decided to tackle him mid air to stop him making a break, jumping doesn't mean hes free to tackle it means he can compete for the ball which he was unable to do

100% don't agree but reckon neither of us are moving from our assessments.

McFadden was on the ground so Trimble is entitled to tackle him - surprised that was a penalty.

It was McFadden who was guilty of the dangerous play - to himself mainly by sticking out his leg. Its should have been play on with a ticking off to McFadden about his catching technique in the next stoppage.

rodders wrote:McFadden was on the ground so Trimble is entitled to tackle him - surprised that was a penalty.

It was McFadden who was guilty of the dangerous play - to himself mainly by sticking out his leg. Its should have been play on with a ticking off to McFadden about his catching technique in the next stoppage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPOPEA8EZPE

Just rewatched it and McFadden actually kicked out at Trimble

Kearney also seems to kick out on the ground, seems he playing with a short fuse these days

I think this game will be with all of us for a long, long time. I'll be having nightmares about our wastefulness until September at the least.

Losing is hard to take, but choking is worse

The Great Aukster wrote:Ulster need to learn how to win games. They had only two players who would have made the Leinster team - Henderson and Trimble, so the result was expected.

Agree with the first part that Ulster need to learn how to close out games, but the second bit about Henderson and Trimble being the only Ulster players who would make the Leinster team is one of the more moronic comments I've seen on this thread.

So it would be McFadden ahead of Bowe, Reddan (useless as usual on Saturday) ahead of Pienaar (admittedly not at his best on Sat), Cronin ahead of Best, Jennings ahead of Henry - don't think so somehow.

If Leinster do win the Rabo against Glasgow, then it's going to lull a lot of people into a false sense of security and simply papers over gaping cracks - two sh1t SH's who can't pass, no replacement for BOD, Darcy further down the downslope, D Kearney too slow, no replacement for Leo in second row (McCarthy not up to it and Quinn Roux!!! (Jeez wept - he was dire beyond belief on Saturday), Jennings ageing. And then we have a coach who can say, hey I've got you to a Rabo final at home - but who has simply emasculated what used to be the most feared back line in Europe and turned us into the rugby equivalent of Chelsea - parking the bus.

How Leinster do in next year's European cup will largely depend on the draw, but against the likes of the moneybags teams like Toulon and Saracens, I don't see any of the Irish teams featuring at the death.

brennomac wrote:
How Leinster do in next year's European cup will largely depend on the draw, but against the likes of the moneybags teams like Toulon and Saracens, I don't see any of the Irish teams featuring at the death.

I think all the provinces are some way off based on this season. Munster maybe are in the best position given the relative youth of their side but who knows how they'll do under the new coaches.

Ulster have to rebuild their tight 5 but have plenty of quality in the backs. The back row was exposed a bit this year without Ferris and Williams. Henry and Wilson are too slow to play together and apart from Henderson there is a lack of ball carriers. We just haven't found the right balance.

Leinster look on course for yet another trophy but have a look of an aging side in transition about them to me. There's not a lot of zip in the backs and they have struggled to fill Sextons boots. The pack has gone well except against the big guns in Europe.

Saracens and Toulon look a class apart to be honest.

Leinster are getting by because they are quite possibly the canniest team in Europe and their breakdown work (whether you think it illegal or borderline) is second to none.

It depends entirely on how and where they strengthen. I heard a whisper O'Connor was talking about the possibility of a centre signing but it seems a tad late to be talking in anything other than absolutes regarding signings, especially before a World Cup.

Munster and Ulster are both somewhat up in the air in that Herbst, Murphy, Bleyendaal (at 12) and Smith are all somewhat unknown quantities.

rodders wrote:

brennomac wrote:
How Leinster do in next year's European cup will largely depend on the draw, but against the likes of the moneybags teams like Toulon and Saracens, I don't see any of the Irish teams featuring at the death.

I think all the provinces are some way off based on this season. Munster maybe are in the best position given the relative youth of their side but who knows how they'll do under the new coaches.

Ulster have to rebuild their tight 5 but have plenty of quality in the backs. The back row was exposed a bit this year without Ferris and Williams. Henry and Wilson are too slow to play together and apart from Henderson there is a lack of ball carriers. We just haven't found the right balance.

Leinster look on course for yet another trophy but have a look of an aging side in transition about them to me. There's not a lot of zip in the backs and they have struggled to fill Sextons boots. The pack has gone well except against the big guns in Europe.

Saracens and Toulon look a class apart to be honest.

Toulon are a class apart but Saracens have only won one big game and that was at home against a Clermont team that have been shown to be well past their best.I'd back the big three provinces against any side in Europe bar Toulon.

Sarries lost at home and away to Toulouse,they only scraped into the HC knockout stages and scraped past Ulster by virtue of a ref deciding to change the way the game is played.Look at Leinster v Casters,Ulster v Montpellier and Leicester,Munster hammering Toulouse and you can see that there is one standout team in Europe right now but despite the obvious weaknesses in all 3 provinces they are still the best in Europe after Toulon.

We should have and in all probability would have beaten Saracens... if not for that fateful incident. I didn't see 'class apart' as they struggled to put away 14 men at Ravenhill. Thats what makes it so frustrating. When you play 76 minutes with 14 men and nearly win anyway they've no real claim to superiority.

Saracens and the three Irish provinces are at a similar level. Toulon are class. But I'd like to see them get an away draw to an Irish team to see if they're really a class apart.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Saracens and the three Irish provinces are at a similar level. Toulon are class. But I'd like to see them get an away draw to an Irish team to see if they're really a class apart.

Very much what he said.

They were beaten away this year by Cardiff. I wonder how they'd fair at Lansdown, Ravenhill or Thomond.

They took the HC in Lansdowne last year v hot favourites though.

I'd even support Munster v Saffacens. I pray Toulon win. And I dislike them nearly as much.

Bath for the Amlin! Have a ticket. Pints!

Gibson wrote:They took the HC in Lansdowne last year v hot favourites though.

I'd even support Munster v Saffacens. I pray Toulon win. And I dislike them nearly as much.

Bath for the Amlin! Have a ticket. Pints!

Look, we've all got a grá for ASM, but they're the biggest chokers in professional rugby. Beating Clermont is not an indication of greatness.

Not a real fan of Toulon think on the whole they are bad for rugby (turning it closer to soccer) but baby jesus wept it would be a horrifying thing to see Saracens lift the last ever HCup trophy.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Not a real fan of Toulon think on the whole they are bad for rugby (turning it closer to soccer) but baby jesus wept it would be a horrifying thing to see Saracens lift the last ever HCup trophy.

There's no real good conclusion to this game.

Notch wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Not a real fan of Toulon think on the whole they are bad for rugby (turning it closer to soccer) but baby jesus wept it would be a horrifying thing to see Saracens lift the last ever HCup trophy.

There's no real good conclusion to this game.

Yeah there really isn't it....the Heineken Cup is going out on its knees....