ERC Heineken Cup Final thread - Ulster v Leinster

[Glas a du]

All roads lead to Twickenham for the clash of the Titans of Irish Rugby on 19/5/12.

Ulster Flag

Ulster for a long time dominated inter provincial rugby in Ireland. Some see this as the start of something big.

Leinster Flag

Leinster are blessed with an amazing cohort of talent, based around BOD. Is the third final in four years one too far for him? If Leinster do it they will create history with the first back to back wins (since Leicester apparently. Couldn't remember that, must have been devalued for some reason )

"@HarpinOnRugby: Sexton needs 15pts in the Heineken Cup final to become the first player to win back-to-back scoring titles in the competition. #2amrugbyfact"

Ulster have failed to make the Rabo playoffs. Will an extra game against Glasgow this weekend help or hinder Leinster? Will a lack of a competitive game hinder Ulster?

Meanwhile, we conducted a vox pops:

"Leinster all day, all night and all the next week. It's in the bag. BELIEVE"
Mr Gibson

"We are gonna Party like its 1999! SUFTUM!"
Mr Ravavivian

"Ulster are in CRISIS!"
Mr Ravavivian

"If Ulster get to the final then it's a devalued tournament"
Mr Livinguptostereotype

"well at least Nigel is reffing, I'll have my pink cowboy hat on cheering for him!"
Mrs Livinguptostereotype

"where my f***ing whisky, I don't support the Burgh, but they were robbed. It will be Exeter challenging Clermont in next years final mark my words!"
Mr Ofussurvive


NEWSFLASH

ULSTER FANS - IMPORTANT NEWS FROM STANDULSTERMAN

Sorry to get off topic lads. Just heard that Paddy Wallace will be down in the bar on Monday helping give away the heineken cup final prize from 8pm if anyone is interested.



"@WhiffofCordite: Not great news about Kearney and BOD is it? Hopefully just minor niggles. Why must pre-final weeks always be so fraught?"

"Mine's a double..." Mickado

"Can we change the title of this thread please to Three time European Champions v The poor man's munster" Hoog.

Come on Ulster, where's your banter?


"Kiwi, this one will do: -

" Rava

From Twitter:
"@rpetty80: If Ulster win the Hcup then Ireland would have 3 teams that have won it multiple times. England has 2 and France its just 1 #rugby"

There have been 35 tries scored in 16 Heineken Cup Finals. Will this game be above or below average in terms of tries?

[Notch]

Reading this makes you see how far Ulster have come in such a short space of time;

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0430/1224315361184.html

In 2008 when I arrived at Ulster, the situation was as bad as could be imagined. There were physical fights between players. Some team members did not talk to each other. Ulster were last in the Magners League with the worst defensive record in the competition. Yet the resolve in team leaders like Rory Best, Paddy Wallace and Stephen Ferris was so strong that it was clear to me that Ulster becoming a major force in European rugby was only a few seasons away. Success was not going to be instant and the pathway was going to be long and rocky but it was going to happen.

In 2008 Ulster had been humbled.

An Ulster man humbled is an angry beast. Channel that anger, born of adversity, into positive energy and with the right rugby structures to nurture it, and success will surely follow. The humiliation of their predicament in 2008 was fuel to their fire and the beginnings of their rugby redemption.

Best thing Matt Williams ever did was get rid of a number of 'poisonous' players behind the scenes. Guys like Neil Best. Sadly the atmosphere in Ulster was so negative other players got fed up and left too.

But guys like Ferris, Best, Trimble, Paddy Wallace- they all had contract offers from other, much more successful teams sitting on their agents desks. They stayed because it's Ulster, it means more to them to play for Ulster and win for Ulster than another team.

And now they are, feic the begruders, I can't help but feel so, so pleased for those guys who were with the team at it's lowest point and just rolled up their sleeves and pulled us forward. Without the commitment of those homegrown stalwarts we'd never have been in a position to get players like Muller, Afoa or Pienaar. David Humphreys as Director of Rugby very much included in that number of homegrown stalwarts by the way.

So proud to be an Ulster fan, and as far as the final goes- well Munster like to say "To the brave and faithful nothing is impossible". In 2008, we were celebrating pippiping Connacht to Irelands third Heineken Cup spot. Since then we've pulled ourselves up by the bootstraps into the Heineken Cup final. Who's to say we can't keep our meteoric rise going for one more game?

[rodders]

Jeebus system overload! Theres far too many threads on the go!

Great article Notch, Glas didn't Leicester win back to back titles?

Can Leinster be beaten?! Not on recent evidence!....mind you Ulster have "the man upstairs" on our side...so that should make us slight favourites!

SUFTUM!

[Standulstermen]

Rory best was fairly misty eyed on Saturday I thought. Well deseved

[geoff999rugby]

Sorry I would not give Matt Williams any credit - he totally failed to arrest the decline.

Neil Best was told he was on his way out before Matt Williams was signed.

We were a mess when he took up the roll in Feb 2008 - we were a mess when he left in May 2009.

We owe everything to Logan and Humphreys

[Notch]

Yeah, he wasn't a good coach but at least he had the baws to leave the disruotive players out.

[Glas a du]

Ulster having it all their own way. Leinster fans will surely make an appearance soon?

[rodders]

Too busy picking out their chinos for the final Glas.

[Rava]

Ulster having it all their own way. Leinster fans will surely make an appearance soon?

Far too early for this article. Lets get this weekends Rabo games over and see who makes the playoffs. Lets park up the HC Final discussion for a week or so.

[Glas a du]

Sorry, I was responding to Secret Fly's request. Silly me

[SecretFly]

Leinster were a elbow's funny-bone away from a loss in France.

Yep, they are beatable. On the plus side for them though, I think they were stifled by nervousness yesterday. I've never seen them so cautious and fearful (of losing the prize that is still alive). Respect for Clermont (induced no doubt by what Schmidt warned them of) almost killed them.

They'll be more familiar and comfortable with Ulster. No, not expecting to win but simply more at ease simply because they play Ulster more often. Ulster too will have that benefit... and whilst a side from England or France might be fretting about the encounter, Ulster won't be feeling any of the awe of meeting the Great European side. "Leinster is it? Oh them again -okay, let's be 'avin' them"

[SecretFly]

Sorry, I was responding to Secret Fly's request. Silly me

It was a request put out there kinda in jest, but thanks anyway, Glas . Anyway, it's here now and it'll be ready for closer to the event. We can put it in an envelope and write on the front: "To be opened a week before Final"

[clivemcl]

I still think Sean O'Brien wasn't supporting his own weight when he turned over the ball at the end. Leinster were on the ropes! Wee buns for Ulster!

[rodders]

Sorry I would not give Matt Williams any credit - he totally failed to arrest the decline.

Neil Best was told he was on his way out before Matt Williams was signed.

We were a mess when he took up the roll in Feb 2008 - we were a mess when he left in May 2009.

We owe everything to Logan and Humphreys

Good piece by Williams in the IT though:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0430/1224315361184.html

In 2008 when I arrived at Ulster, the situation was as bad as could be imagined. There were physical fights between players. Some team members did not talk to each other. Ulster were last in the Magners League with the worst defensive record in the competition. Yet the resolve in team leaders like Rory Best, Paddy Wallace and Stephen Ferris was so strong that it was clear to me that Ulster becoming a major force in European rugby was only a few seasons away. Success was not going to be instant and the pathway was going to be long and rocky but it was going to happen.

In 2008 Ulster had been humbled.

An Ulster man humbled is an angry beast. Channel that anger, born of adversity, into positive energy and with the right rugby structures to nurture it, and success will surely follow. The humiliation of their predicament in 2008 was fuel to their fire and the beginnings of their rugby redemption.

Ulster’s journey to the final of the Heineken Cup is truly remarkable. The magnitude of their achievements has been undervalued in the Republic because of all the white noise, both cultural and political that comes with the province.

[The Great Aukster]

Sorry I would not give Matt Williams any credit - he totally failed to arrest the decline.

Neil Best was told he was on his way out before Matt Williams was signed.

We were a mess when he took up the roll in Feb 2008 - we were a mess when he left in May 2009.

We owe everything to Logan and Humphreys

Williams does deserve some credit, because he was a catalyst for change. He confronted the suits about their small minded parochialism and vision for Ulster, some of which got through and some of which led to his downfall. He was also very influential in the recruitment of Humphreys as Operations Director. On the playing side he did two things of note - sort out the training facilities, and recognise the importance and improve the status of the backroom staff.
On the team front he was very poor with some very mediocre recruitment and didn't recognise what Ulster really meant to Ulstermen. For example it was unforgivable to ignore Chris Henry in favour of Grant Webb.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Key man in the final. John Afoa. Great in the lose and the tight. cornerstone of the pack.
(Of course Ferris and Pinar and Best are key too)

Without him I would not fear Ulster. Not as much anyway.

Court Best & Afoa is a pretty scary front row.

[geoff998rugby]

Agreed the front row is one area where Ulster need to get an advantage in order to win.

[rodders]

Unfortunately the front row is the only area on paper where Ulster possibly have an advantage....mind you thats a decent advantage to have

Possibly the line out too.

Leinster hold nearly all the aces in this one.... they are as close to an unbeatable side as I've seen at club level, very similar to the AB's the way they dominate the breakdown. The strength of their bench is incredible and they can just adapt their game to what is being thrown at them.

Finals are a great leveller though, as the Saints showed last year and the pressure will be off Ulster in this one so hopefully we can produce our very best form and that will hopefully be enough to give us a chance.

If we can get an edge in the set piece and Pienaar brings his kicking boots things might just get a bit close for comfort for the ladyboys......

[geoff998rugby]

Rodders we are better than that.

From 1 to 9, providing everyone is fit, I honestly believe we have the edge.
We compare ok in the second row and the back row and we have the better 9.

However Leisnter have the best 10, centre, winger and 15 on their side and it is in the backs where they have a clear advantage.

[rodders]

Geoff Leinster have a better backrow unit, I have zero doubt about that, they also have the option of using Jennings or switching SOB to 7.

If our first choice backrow is fit then we can give them a run for their money but certainly we won't get the edge at the breakdown the way we did against Munster.

With Thorn there and Toner on the bench I think their 2nd row options are stronger than ours.

Pienaar is better than Reddan or Boss of course but again that option of switching them makes their half back options very strong.

I agree there are areas were we will be very competitive, even in the backline but the scrum and front row is the only area were I would say for sure we are stronger.

[geoff998rugby]

I dont agree re the backrow

Ferris/Wannenberg/Henry - SOB/Heaslip/Jennings or McLaughlin

Not saying we are better but I do think we match up.
I agree that they have more to offer from the bench

Same with the 2nd row

Muller/Tuohy v Thorn/Cullen
I am happy with that

Again not saying better just that we match up.

[Rory_Gallagher]

IMO we have the better tight 5, in the set piece at least. In the backrow I would say Leinster have the edge.

[Rory_Gallagher]

The Leinster backrow operate better as a unit than the Ulster backrow IMO, rather than looking at each player individually.

[rodders]

Again not saying better just that we match up.

Thats what I'm saying too Geoff, we do match up I just wouldn't agree that we have the edge there. We may well be able to get the edge but it will take something a bit beyond anything we've produced before to get that.

Leinster have greater depth in those positions which can't be discounted either. We will have maybe Faloon and Stevenson on the bench, whereas they will have maybe Jennings and Toner. Thats a big advantage to have.

I'm not saying we can't win but we are up against it and will need an unbelievable performance across the board to have a shot.

[rodders]

The Leinster backrow operate better as a unit than the Ulster backrow IMO, rather than looking at each player individually.

Thats what I would say too. Thats not a criticism of our backrow which is extremely good and Ferris is for me the best blindside around but Leinster have an unbelievably good backrow unit and their breakdown play as a team is peerless in the NH.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Rodders we are better than that.

From 1 to 9, providing everyone is fit, I honestly believe we have the edge.
We compare ok in the second row and the back row and we have the better 9.

However Leisnter have the best 10, centre, winger and 15 on their side and it is in the backs where they have a clear advantage.

The clear advantage we have is our bench. That's what could win it for us.

You guys played the same 15 for 80 mins in the QF in Thomond. That may not be enough in Twickers.

[geoff998rugby]

I said from 1 to 9 we had the edge not 4 to 8.
I'll stick by that.

I do agree they have a better bench.

But the gulf in class is in the backs not the forwards.
Our backs are quite good but theirs are simply better.

[rodders]

I said from 1 to 9 we had the edge not 4 to 8.
I'll stick by that.

I do agree they have a better bench.

But the gulf in class is in the backs not the forwards.
Our backs are quite good but theirs are simply better.

I think Gulf in class is the wrong term. I believe we are in the final on merit so deserve to be seen in the same class.

They are simply better than us in a number of key areas so we will have to find another level in our performance across the board.

It's not mission impossible though and in a one off final anything is possible. I believe we have a chance for sure.

[SecretFly]

If O'Brien can support his own weight - we have a chance
I'm hearing he has problems there and I suggest a little wheel barrow to put his belly into.

[Mickado]

Based on the first half of our game on Sunday Ulster have an advantage in the scrum, and based on our general form Ulster have an advantage in the lineout.

Being up in both set pieces is a huge boon to any team, but with Ferris and Pienaar behind those advantages they’re even bigger.

I see us as underdogs for this one. Big time.

[Notch]

I see us as underdogs for this one. Big time.

Spoiler:

[clivemcl]

yea Mickado, I reckon we are gona smash yous

[clivemcl]

ha Notch

[geoff998rugby]

Funny Mickardo funny
Leinster are the underdogs

There is a gulf in certain positions 10 for one
Centre for another in so far that BOD is the best centre in a generation whereas Cave and Wallace are merely only very good players. D'Arcy balances it up, a bit but there is no denying their superiority.

Nacewa is better than either of our wingers
Keaney is better than Terblanche.

Neither is a gulf but Leinster come out on top

[rodders]

Whats the thoughts on how many fans both sides will bring?

Will it be a sell out?

Can Ulster cope with the favourites tag?

[clivemcl]

This is my worry Rodders. I can see the stadium having only about half genuine fans of either finalists. How many does Twickers hold? Pretty sure that less than half the ulster fans in Dublin at the weekend will be in London. Anyone think I'm being too pessimistic?

I just hope I've got fellow Ulster fans around where I'm sitting, rather than a bunch of neutral observers!

[SecretFly]

Won't there be a sizeable population in and around London that will either be Ulsterman or have close relations there?

It's not always the 'travelling' fans that fill away games - the resident exiles do a job sometimes when needed.

And...didn't a lot of Leinster builders go off to London when the building empire collapsed here? They'll be bringing the diggers with them

[rodders]

90,000 I think clive.

Gees the thought of 85,000 people plus Isaac Boss singing 'Stand up for the Ulstermen' just warms the heart doesn't it?

[geoff998rugby]

My guess is you will have a higher % of Rugby fans but a lower % of fans from the competing teams.

That is my experience from the HC finals I have been too.

Most of the people supporting Ulster on Saturday were not rugby fans, as in go to matches on anything like a regular basis

[Notch]

This is my worry Rodders. I can see the stadium having only about half genuine fans of either finalists. How many does Twickers hold? Pretty sure that less than half the ulster fans in Dublin at the weekend will be in London. Anyone think I'm being too pessimistic?

If anything a wee bit optimistic. I'd say about 10% of the stadium will be Ulster fans- around 8000, less than we often get for Pro12 games.

But on the other hand 99% of people there will be genuine rugby fans.

[Submachine]

It will boil down to Ulsters defence and Pienaars boot. If Ulster can prevent Leinster scoring a try, Pienaar will kick them to Victory. If Leinster manage to get over the whitwash once, they will probably get another couple.
Could make for a very dour attritional final.

[rodders]

This is my worry Rodders. I can see the stadium having only about half genuine fans of either finalists. How many does Twickers hold? Pretty sure that less than half the ulster fans in Dublin at the weekend will be in London. Anyone think I'm being too pessimistic?

If anything a wee bit optimistic. I'd say about 10% of the stadium will be Ulster fans- around 8000, less than we often get for Pro12 games.

But on the other hand 99% of people there will be genuine rugby fans.

Ok then to clarify... 10% will be Ulster fans, 99% will be rugby fans and the remaining 1% will be chino wearing Leinster fans? Is that roysh?.........

[Submachine]

This is my worry Rodders. I can see the stadium having only about half genuine fans of either finalists. How many does Twickers hold? Pretty sure that less than half the ulster fans in Dublin at the weekend will be in London. Anyone think I'm being too pessimistic?

If anything a wee bit optimistic. I'd say about 10% of the stadium will be Ulster fans- around 8000, less than we often get for Pro12 games.

But on the other hand 99% of people there will be genuine rugby fans.

Ok then to clarify... 10% will be Ulster fans, 99% will be rugby fans and the remaining 1% will be chino wearing Leinster fans? Is that roysh?.........

Even the stadium gives 110% in a final.

[SecretFly]

Pink cardigan bowtied around the neck is much more classy wear for such a big occasion.

[rodders]

Pink cardigan bowtied around the neck is much more classy wear for such a big occasion.

[Notch]

This is my worry Rodders. I can see the stadium having only about half genuine fans of either finalists. How many does Twickers hold? Pretty sure that less than half the ulster fans in Dublin at the weekend will be in London. Anyone think I'm being too pessimistic?

If anything a wee bit optimistic. I'd say about 10% of the stadium will be Ulster fans- around 8000, less than we often get for Pro12 games.

But on the other hand 99% of people there will be genuine rugby fans.

Ok then to clarify... 10% will be Ulster fans, 99% will be rugby fans and the remaining 1% will be chino wearing Leinster fans? Is that roysh?.........

The 10% and 99% are not mutually exclusive... in fact, its to be hoped they are mutually inclusive

[Mickado]

I’d say there will be roughly the same amount of fans travelling from both team, Leinster may have slightly more, but the neutral support (i.e. Munster fans in London / the UK) will probably support Ulster.

Giving Ulster the edge and the 16th man.

Advantage Nordies…

[Rava]

Rodders we are better than that.

From 1 to 9, providing everyone is fit, I honestly believe we have the edge.
We compare ok in the second row and the back row and we have the better 9.

However Leisnter have the best 10, centre, winger and 15 on their side and it is in the backs where they have a clear advantage.

The clear advantage we have is our bench. That's what could win it for us.

You guys played the same 15 for 80 mins in the QF in Thomond. That may not be enough in Twickers.

No bother Jen, we'll try to get 90mins out of them then

[Rava]

I’d say there will be roughly the same amount of fans travelling from both team, Leinster may have slightly more, but the neutral support (i.e. Munster fans in London / the UK) will probably support Ulster.

Giving Ulster the edge and the 16th man.

Advantage Nordies…

Are you nervous yet? What will you be like in two weeks time?

[Mickado]

Leinster have never won a game in Twickenham, Ulster have never lost one.

Advantage to the red hand men…

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