ERC Heineken Cup Final thread - Ulster v Leinster

[Glas a du]

First topic message reminder :

All roads lead to Twickenham for the clash of the Titans of Irish Rugby on 19/5/12.

Ulster Flag

Ulster for a long time dominated inter provincial rugby in Ireland. Some see this as the start of something big.

Leinster Flag

Leinster are blessed with an amazing cohort of talent, based around BOD. Is the third final in four years one too far for him? If Leinster do it they will create history with the first back to back wins (since Leicester apparently. Couldn't remember that, must have been devalued for some reason )

"@HarpinOnRugby: Sexton needs 15pts in the Heineken Cup final to become the first player to win back-to-back scoring titles in the competition. #2amrugbyfact"

Ulster have failed to make the Rabo playoffs. Will an extra game against Glasgow this weekend help or hinder Leinster? Will a lack of a competitive game hinder Ulster?

Meanwhile, we conducted a vox pops:

"Leinster all day, all night and all the next week. It's in the bag. BELIEVE"
Mr Gibson

"We are gonna Party like its 1999! SUFTUM!"
Mr Ravavivian

"Ulster are in CRISIS!"
Mr Ravavivian

"If Ulster get to the final then it's a devalued tournament"
Mr Livinguptostereotype

"well at least Nigel is reffing, I'll have my pink cowboy hat on cheering for him!"
Mrs Livinguptostereotype

"where my f***ing whisky, I don't support the Burgh, but they were robbed. It will be Exeter challenging Clermont in next years final mark my words!"
Mr Ofussurvive


NEWSFLASH

ULSTER FANS - IMPORTANT NEWS FROM STANDULSTERMAN

Sorry to get off topic lads. Just heard that Paddy Wallace will be down in the bar on Monday helping give away the heineken cup final prize from 8pm if anyone is interested.



"@WhiffofCordite: Not great news about Kearney and BOD is it? Hopefully just minor niggles. Why must pre-final weeks always be so fraught?"

"Mine's a double..." Mickado

"Can we change the title of this thread please to Three time European Champions v The poor man's munster" Hoog.

Come on Ulster, where's your banter?


"Kiwi, this one will do: -

" Rava

From Twitter:
"@rpetty80: If Ulster win the Hcup then Ireland would have 3 teams that have won it multiple times. England has 2 and France its just 1 #rugby"

There have been 35 tries scored in 16 Heineken Cup Finals. Will this game be above or below average in terms of tries?

[Mickado]

I’d say there will be roughly the same amount of fans travelling from both team, Leinster may have slightly more, but the neutral support (i.e. Munster fans in London / the UK) will probably support Ulster.

Giving Ulster the edge and the 16th man.

Advantage Nordies…

Are you nervous yet? What will you be like in two weeks time?

Not nervous at all, just happy that we’re in the final. We’ll go out, give it a lash against a fantastic team who’ve come a much harder route than us and we’ll see how it goes.

(I won’t be able to keep this up for 2 more weeks, don’t worry pal! )

[Gibson]

I’d say there will be roughly the same amount of fans travelling from both team, Leinster may have slightly more, but the neutral support (i.e. Munster fans in London / the UK) will probably support Ulster.

Giving Ulster the edge and the 16th man.

Advantage Nordies…

Yep. I was reading Munsterfans - for a laugh. As ya do. "Ah jayziz lids, the Ladies are haulding out v ASM here. They've gone and won it! Dont really want to, but have to support The Todgers in de Finil now"



Bless em.

I bet we still outnumber Ulster fans 2 to 1.

The way Ulster destroyed Leicester, beat ASM at home and nearly did it away.... They wont be worrying unduly about us. And why should they? This is going to be some Final.

[Mickado]

There was a thread on there called “who do you want to win the HC final” and one fella said the best result would be to have it abandoned because of fighting.

Keep it up, the bitterness it fuels my soul!

[SecretFly]

I must check out who that one fella is? Don't tell me he's a Munsterman.

[Notch]

There was a thread on there called “who do you want to win the HC final” and one fella said the best result would be to have it abandoned because of fighting.

[Mickado]

To be fair, he was probably messing. I don't really care though.

[UlsterinKildare]

Interested to hear other poster's views on where the final will be won and lost and in what areas either team will have the upper-hand. For what it's worth....

Set pieces: I expect Ulster to establish a sound platform on their own ball in both the scrum and line-out, and while Leinster are not weak in those areas either, I do anticipate that they will be pressurised into conceding some turnovers/penalties in certain situations. Ulster need to win in the tight because if Leinster achieve parity there, then they will have the brilliance out wide to punish any opponent.

Breakdown: Not only do Leinster have more options in the backrow than Ulster but their lock forwards are also much more involved and influential than Ulster's at clearing out and counter-rucking. For this reason, I expect Leinster to be able to generate quicker ball than Ulster going forward and also to be effective in getting their hands on Pienaar at the back of Ulster attacking rucks. They were able to disrupt Parra on Sunday and I'm sure they will try to 'get at' Pienaar in the final. They know that they can not afford to give him any time or space. It will be vital that Ferris, Henry & Wannenburg are heavily involved in protecting their own ball even at the expense of removing their ball-carrying impact wider out.

Decision making/half-backs/inside centre: I actually expect both teams to be fairly evenly matched in these areas. Sexton is superb at bringing his outside backs into play and his kicking from hand has become alot more consistent. D'arcy has got alot of credit for his try-saving tackle on Fofana but, in my eyes at least, he's no longer the solid defender or the attacking threat that he once was. I expect Ulster to try and get Trimble of his wing running down the 12 channel as much as possible. If Reddan starts, then I think that will favour Ulster as he is more of a traditional one dimensional scrum half than Boss. Jackson deserves to start the final but he needs to take some pressure off Pienaar. He must play slightly closer to the gain line in order to keep the Leinster back row honest, and to buy time for his centres. If he is just going to act as a farily lateral distributor then he'll be no threat to Leinster and as a result, Wallace and Cave will find it difficult to break the Leinster defensive line.

Open-play/outside centre/back three: Leinster almost certainly possess the best back three in European rugby and O'Driscoll, while lacking the acceleration that he once had, still has one of the sharpest brains and greatest field vision in world rugby. Ulster will need to be extremely physical in their defensive efforts (here Terblanche is a bit of a liability) and ensure that Kearney, Nacewa and Fitzgerald are not given any space - almost impossible to achieve over 80 mins. Gilroy has demonstrated a real talent for making space, he's a threat, and Trimble will run hard and true, but Ulster will really need to pull something out of the hat in order to achieve anything even close ot parity in this area.

Overall, I hope that Ulster use the same bluebrint as the Springboks did back in 1995 against the ABs in the World Cup Final. Keep it tight, implement a highly aggressive & physical gameplan where the match is largely played between the two forward packs and dominated by set-pieces. Who cares if it's not pretty - just so long as it's effective.

[Gibson]

That's an excellent analysis, UlsterinKildare. I think you are mostly spot on.
Then again, on the day itself, so many unplanned variables come into play. Some players will make crucial mistakes. Some will play above themselves.

I think Leinster have to avoid getting into a forward-orientated scrap with Ulster. At all costs. We can handle it, but I believe we should start with the team to really have a go at ye. That means Reddan starts. When he plays for us, we are far more potent.

[rodders]

That's an excellent analysis, UlsterinKildare. I think you are mostly spot on.

+1 although I'd be more worried about Reddan than Boss. He made a big difference against Clermont.

[Mickado]

That's an excellent analysis, UlsterinKildare. I think you are mostly spot on.
Then again, on the day itself, so many unplanned variables come into play. Some players will make crucial mistakes. Some will play above themselves.

I think Leinster have to avoid getting into a forward-orientated scrap with Ulster. At all costs. We can handle it, but I believe we should start with the team to really have a go at ye. That means Reddan starts. When he plays for us, we are far more potent.

I'd say one nailed on starter for Leinster is Isaac Boss.

[Feckless Rogue]

Who started last years final? Reddan or Boss? I can't even remember.

[Rava]

I generally agree as well UlsterinKildare but you are off the mark with your analysis that Terblanche is a liability in defence. His positional play gives him a head start and he has proved a good few times this season that he can take a man down on a one to one.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Terblanche is absolutely remarkable when it comes to defensive positioning. One on one, as the last man of defence, where 9 times out of 10 the defender is going to be beaten, Terblanche manages to break the odds. He just knows where to be and when.

[Gibson]

Terblanche is absolutely remarkable when it comes to defensive positioning. One on one, as the last man of defence, where 9 times out of 10 the defender is going to be beaten, Terblanche manages to break the odds. He just knows where to be and when.

So true. He is like BOD that way. Sharp brain. Positionally excellent. So experienced at the highest level and it shows.

[Gibson]

That's an excellent analysis, UlsterinKildare. I think you are mostly spot on.
Then again, on the day itself, so many unplanned variables come into play. Some players will make crucial mistakes. Some will play above themselves.

I think Leinster have to avoid getting into a forward-orientated scrap with Ulster. At all costs. We can handle it, but I believe we should start with the team to really have a go at ye. That means Reddan starts. When he plays for us, we are far more potent.

I'd say one nailed on starter for Leinster is Isaac Boss.

You reckon Mick? Maybe so. I have noticed, that Boss always plays a level higher when we play Ulster. Has matched and bettered Pienaar on one ocassion I clearly remember.

But, for Leinster to play our fast open-game - Reddan is the man for me. My call is to go for it from the start.

Big call for Joe.

Another one is Mclaughlin or Jennings. Id go for Locky to start. He's a tireless worker and a extra lineout option.

[Standulstermen]

For me I would rather see McLaughlin start instead of Jennings. Henry could really do some damage at ruck time if Jennings isn't there to combat him.

[Intotouch]

I think the neutrals will be cheering on Ulster, so that will mean most of the crowd.

Why does a minority of the tickets go to the fans of the teams in the finals?

[Mickado]

I think the neutrals will be cheering on Ulster, so that will mean most of the crowd.

Why does a minority of the tickets go to the fans of the teams in the finals?

The HC final is a celebration of European rugby, everyone should have the opportunity to attend. Like an all Ireland final (hmmm, how apt!).

Feckless - Reddan started last year.

[MrsP]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/belfast-city-hall-in-bid-to-show-ulsters-heineken-cup-rugby-clash-on-big-screen-16153204.html

Great to see the city getting behind Ulster Rugby!

[Standulstermen]

I doubt it will happen but it would be great to see.

[Mickado]

However, longstanding UUP man Davy Browne was the only elected member to oppose the proposal. He said: “I would ban it (rugby) if I had anything to do with it. I think it is barbaric.”

What a dick!

[Standulstermen]

However, longstanding UUP man Davy Browne was the only elected member to oppose the proposal. He said: “I would ban it (rugby) if I had anything to do with it. I think it is barbaric.”

What a dick!

Didnt read that far down. Methinks his new leader will have a quiet word with mr Browne. Not exactly a vote winner that sentiment

[MrsP]

At least he has a non partisan reason for disliking rugby!

Belfast City council usually divide on very predictable lines regardless of the issue under discussion!

Quite refreshing to see a dissenting voice for another reason! But, you are right!

[Mickado]

True that MrsP.

We don’t really have a suitable venue to do this type of thing in Dublin. Shame.

[rodders]

For me I would rather see McLaughlin start instead of Jennings. Henry could really do some damage at ruck time if Jennings isn't there to combat him.

I wouldn't stand. McLaughlin is seriously underrated and will help combat the physicality of our pack and strengthen their lineout.

Jennings is an even bigger threat coming off the bench late on in my opinion.

I think we can really take the game to Leinster physically the way we did against Munster and Clermont and our commitment will be off the scale, the question is will we have a plan B the way Leinster do? Whoever they start with is irrelevent because at some stage they will bring the bench on and mix their game up.

As it showed in the SF you can put Leinster under huge amounts of pressure and even better them for long periods but they just have that ability to adapt and change their gameplan, thats why they are so hard to beat. Against Saints last year it was the same.

I have a feeling Schmidt will start with Boss and McLaughlin to soften us up physically then bring Reddan and Jennings on to turn the screw.

[rodders]

However, longstanding UUP man Davy Browne was the only elected member to oppose the proposal. He said: “I would ban it (rugby) if I had anything to do with it. I think it is barbaric.”

What a dick!

aren't Tyrone Howe and Trevor Ringland in the UUP?!

[Mickado]

However, longstanding UUP man Davy Browne was the only elected member to oppose the proposal. He said: “I would ban it (rugby) if I had anything to do with it. I think it is barbaric.”

What a dick!

aren't Tyrone Howe and Trevor Ringland in the UUP?!

Ha, they should give him a hiding for saying that!

[clivemcl]

Ulster reporting their allocation of tickets are sold out! Its ebay or gumtree for everyone else! Hope plenty of supporters manage to get over. I don't want to be surrounded by neutrals!

[brennomac]

I’d say there will be roughly the same amount of fans travelling from both team, Leinster may have slightly more, but the neutral support (i.e. Munster fans in London / the UK) will probably support Ulster.

Giving Ulster the edge and the 16th man.

Advantage Nordies…

Yep. I was reading Munsterfans - for a laugh. As ya do. "Ah jayziz lids, the Ladies are haulding out v ASM here. They've gone and won it! Dont really want to, but have to support The Todgers in de Finil now"



Bless em.

I bet we still outnumber Ulster fans 2 to 1.



The way Ulster destroyed Leicester, beat ASM at home and nearly did it away.... They wont be worrying unduly about us. And why should they? This is going to be some Final.

Anybody wanting a real good laugh should log on to the munsterfans website and go on to their thread about the HC cup final - it's an absolute hoot and needless to say the turnip posters almost to a man are rooting for Ulster - usually because they don't want Leinster to win 3 HC's before Munster do. Jeez, waiting for Munster's third HC - hope they're not holding their breath down in Limerick.

After that it's the usual persecution complex stuff - our Leo it seems is a "scumbag" because he apparently grabbed hold of Rougerie's goolies and Leinster get away with all sorts of underhand stuff while everybody else (especially those with Toyota on their red jersey) always get pinged - the Bull for stomping on Healy's head two years ago, POC for his backhander on Jonathan Thomas last year. Seem to forget all about Jenno's 12 week ban for getting close to Nick Kennedy's eyes v LI and Quinny's scrape across Leo's eye area in the Croker SF in 2009.

[BoyneRFC]

I’d say there will be roughly the same amount of fans travelling from both team, Leinster may have slightly more, but the neutral support (i.e. Munster fans in London / the UK) will probably support Ulster.

Giving Ulster the edge and the 16th man.

Advantage Nordies…

Yep. I was reading Munsterfans - for a laugh. As ya do. "Ah jayziz lids, the Ladies are haulding out v ASM here. They've gone and won it! Dont really want to, but have to support The Todgers in de Finil now"



Bless em.

I bet we still outnumber Ulster fans 2 to 1.



The way Ulster destroyed Leicester, beat ASM at home and nearly did it away.... They wont be worrying unduly about us. And why should they? This is going to be some Final.

Anybody wanting a real good laugh should log on to the munsterfans website and go on to their thread about the HC cup final - it's an absolute hoot and needless to say the turnip posters almost to a man are rooting for Ulster - usually because they don't want Leinster to win 3 HC's before Munster do. Jeez, waiting for Munster's third HC - hope they're not holding their breath down in Limerick.

After that it's the usual persecution complex stuff - our Leo it seems is a "scumbag" because he apparently grabbed hold of Rougerie's goolies and Leinster get away with all sorts of underhand stuff while everybody else (especially those with Toyota on their red jersey) always get pinged - the Bull for stomping on Healy's head two years ago, POC for his backhander on Jonathan Thomas last year. Seem to forget all about Jenno's 12 week ban for getting close to Nick Kennedy's eyes v LI and Quinny's scrape across Leo's eye area in the Croker SF in 2009.

+1

Ive just read some of the stuff. Funny thing about Munster folk (apart from the whole 6 toes thing) is that they write phonetically, with little or no regard for grammar. I kind of think its cool

However, the main point of the turnip juice induced ramblings are...

"Oi cant billeve the ladys are going to win 3 before we do" and "Ulster have never won a HEC before" (1999, no English teams and such....)

It's actually very amusing if you read the bitterness in a Limerick accent in your head...

And you are correct, to a man, they are begrudgingly cheering on Ulster.....

It warms my heart..it really does...

[BoyneRFC]

.....oh and apparently, it's a "soft" year for European rugby, as Leicester and Wasps are now pants, whereas in the past, when Munster played them, they were good...

Very funny.

They are even thinking of making tee shirts "Munster for life, Ulster for 80 minutes"....

I wonder will they be going half price like the Munster jerseys after the HEC SF...

It would be sad if it weren't so bloody funny !!

[BoyneRFC]

I wonder will they be going half price like the Munster jerseys after the HEC SF...

Just to clarify... the one when Leinster beat them in CP... but you probably got that...

[geoff998rugby]

Nigel Owens is the Referee - excellent

[Mickado]

Ah lads, lay off the Munsterfans, they're grand on here. Every supporters board has their own one-eye'd "ultras". Why just this morning i read the Leinster v ASM thread from the Leicester fans site, unreal stuff.

I'm glad other teams don't like us because we're good, but don't give them any more ammo to hate the fans.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Ah lads, lay off the Munsterfans, they're grand on here. Every supporters board has their own one-eye'd "ultras". Why just this morning i read the Leinster v ASM thread from the Leicester fans site, unreal stuff.

I'm glad other teams don't like us because we're good, but don't give them any more ammo to hate the fans.

I suppose you haven't encountered DOD on these forums yet then?

[Mickado]

Ah lads, lay off the Munsterfans, they're grand on here. Every supporters board has their own one-eye'd "ultras". Why just this morning i read the Leinster v ASM thread from the Leicester fans site, unreal stuff.

I'm glad other teams don't like us because we're good, but don't give them any more ammo to hate the fans.

I suppose you haven't encountered DOD on these forums yet then?

Of course I have, we go back a long way. Same with SinE, leave them to it. They're only looking for a rise out of people anyway.

[Biltong]

Now you see this is where I find myself in a bit of a pickle.

I have sworn my allegiance to Leinster, and should therefor support them in the final.

However.

Four of my countrymen and two of them being some of my favourtie players (Terblanche and Pienaar) does put me in a difficult position.

So being between a rock and a hard place, do I go with my sworn oath, or my country men?

[BoyneRFC]

Oath oath !!!

[rodders]

So being between a rock and a hard place, do I go with my sworn oath, or my country men?

Thats easy Biltong, you should back the winning horse.... SUFTUM!..... ...

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

When i am watching a game as a neutral, I sometimes decide in advance who to support. Then sometime after kickoff I find I actually support the other team.

[Biltong]

Oath oath !!!

to be fair it wasn't a blood oath.

[Feckless Rogue]

Biltong, I'm a Leinsterman. But to be honest, if I was you I'd be rooting for Ulster. How could you not with some of your favourite countrymen playing with them?

I have teams in the south that I like. But if O'Driscoll and O'Connell both singed for the Bulls they'd become my favourite.

I while ago I decided to pick a team from each super rugby country that I'd nominally "support", because I wanted to watch the tournament more. For South Africa I picked the Sharks. My twisted logic being that Sharks are slightly scarier than bulls, lions, cheetahs or storms.

Who do you support?

[Biltong]

Feckless, I don't support a specific team in SA, for me it is the Springboks all the way.

The provinces serve a purpose of developing quality rugby and players.

I can tell you however that there is something about each team that I do like.

I like the cheetahs for the type of running rugby they play, and for their ability to churn out new talent every year.

I don't like the fact that the Sharks, Stormers and Bulls pilfer all the young talent from all over just because they have money.

I am a firm beleiver in you build and develop your own squads.

I like the defensive system of the Stormers, and I like the interaction the Sharks have with their forwards and backs.

I do not like much of the Bulls but that is mostly down to their supporters who in my view are mostly one eyed neanderthals who can't see past the colour blue (or as this the case this season pink).

I have mostly sympathy for the Lions (the players, not the administrations) as they went from the best province in Sa during the early nineties to the worst.

[Feckless Rogue]

What's the story with the new South African franchise entering Super Rugby? Were some team promised a place in the tournament but the other franchises aren't happy about it?

[Biltong]

SARU effectively made promises to the Southern Kings (the eastern cape region where there is the highest number of non white players and traditionally seen as the hotbed of non white talent)

The problem is however a little more complex than that. Luke Watson's father a former anti apartheid activist and still very much a person with political aspirations have worked himself into the rugby there and has been promoting that the region gets a spot in the super rugby tournamnet.

This has been going on for about 7 years, now, but instead of using the last seven years to develop a strong team, they are now even poorer than what they were 7 years ago.

They couldn;t even get to the semi finals of the Vodacom cup (our third tier) with a full squad.

Ontop of that the mismanagment of funds and SARU or governement (you take a pick) has been paying the salaries of Luke Watson and some other high profile people to the amount of R200 000 per month ( 18 000 pounds).

So the "entitlement" card is being heavily thrown around by cheeky Watson, whilst he is really just using the Southern Kings as his tool to further his political ambitions (in my view).

So the whole thing is a farce, if the Kings do get their spot at the expence or the Lions most likely, they will lose by record scores.

[Notch]

Maybe they should fold much of the current Lions playing staff and coaches into the Southern Kings?

[Feckless Rogue]

The poor Lions. The idea of a franchise based in an area of non-white talent is a good one for the spread of rugby really.

But that sounds like a mess. How can a team from the third tier of South African rugby compete with the likes of the Crusaders! Unless they poach lots of Lions players.

There should be an agreement. You are guaranteed super rugby IF you can work your way up to the top tier of South African rugby and sustain yourself there competitively for x years first. That seems fair to me.

[fa0019]

biltongbek

I have heard that statement by the EP Kings concerning the hotbed of non-white talent but I think its all rubbish to be honest.

Surely Die Kaap has developed more non white talent then anyone else when you consider the following players all came from the cape;

De Jongh, Aplon, JP Pietersen, Conrad Jantjies, Januarie, Steenkamp, Paulse, Chester Williams, Tobias, Willemse and uh Earl Rose

The only non white talent to come out of EP has been Nokwi, The Ndugane twins, Basson and the new stormers talent Kolisi... the rest are just white guys from the various private schools.

Also WP & the Stormers are managed by Coetzee & if you go and watch the stormers play I would say near half of the fans are Cape Coloured... their fan base is very strong. Contrary to EP who are managed by 2 kiwis and play to near all white fans.

Its not a point scoring thing i.e. we're more integrated than you etc but I do hate it how EP try and wash over true intergration which has occurred in the Western Cape compared to the properganda version cheeky and his cronies spit out..... I mean the Kings are hardly representative of their demographics of the province, either their team or their fans.

Sorry dude just touched a nerve there!

I hope they do get in next year and just get totally destroyed by everyone. Just like the PDV experiment, it will prove to be a total disaster... not because they can't succeed... but because they never earnt their way up, never built a proper side or fan base.

[fa0019]

Notch

When you consider the history of the lions it would just be a travesty if they folded. The lions are one of the oldest clubs in world rugby and one of the most successful. They have some great young players such as Jantjies and Taute. They will get it right, they just need people to get off their back for a while.

They have won 2 Super rugby titles and were the strongest team in SA 10-15 years back but have gone through problems mainly due to finances ever since.

They deserve more than to be replaced by what has been at best an average side in South Africa and only because its controlled by a govt intent on controlling the sport for their own doings... just like when they hired PDV which ended the way everyone predicted.

[chewed_mintie]

They have won 2 Super rugby titles and were the strongest team in SA 10-15 years back but have gone through problems mainly due to finances ever since.

Probably all to do with Louis Luyt....

Had to check the record books on a Super win and whilst it is pre-Super 12, it’s still a win I guess – 20-17 over Auckland in ‘93

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