Pro12: any news?

A month to go  until the league season starts......Any news on when the fixtures are out?

None that I'm aware of. I think they are waiting on the internal Welsh situation to sort itself out.

Not taking sides in that one....... Mess of a situation that can't be EXCLUSIVELY blamed on anyone.

St John The Enforcer wrote:None that I'm aware of. I think they are waiting on the internal Welsh situation to sort itself out.

Not taking sides in that one....... Mess of a situation that can't be EXCLUSIVELY blamed on anyone.

Are you sure? what about the PRL?
  

They just saw an opportunity to exploit the situation for their own ends. Roots of the problem go waaaay back before their involvement.....

But good effort.

St John The Enforcer wrote:None that I'm aware of. I think they are waiting on the internal Welsh situation to sort itself out.

Why would they be waiting on that? The welsh teams have been told they are in the league by their Union. They have the weekends all fixed up.

There should be no need to worry about 'the welsh situation' as all the TV partners are sorted out, and all of the teams involved are sorted out. So surely it is just a case of the TV companies working out who is going to show what game, and then telling the teams when they are to play?

However I the general time for the first set of KO times/dates is about a fortnight before the season.

ScarletSpiderman wrote: the general time for the first set of KO times/dates is about a fortnight before the season.

Plenty of time to arrange everything.

[sigh]

Anyone working in the NHS has to give around 6 - 8 weeks notice of annual leave. They are screwed if they are rugby fans supporting any team in this woeful competition.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote: the general time for the first set of KO times/dates is about a fortnight before the season.

Plenty of time to arrange everything.

[sigh]

Anyone working in the NHS has to give around 6 - 8 weeks notice of annual leave. They are screwed if they are rugby fans supporting any team in this woeful competition.

Well it's the only competition in town so have to make the best of it.

doctornickolas wrote:

Well it's the only competition in town so have to make the best of it.

Brilliant attitude.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:

Well it's the only competition in town so have to make the best of it.

Brilliant attitude.

Meaning? There is no other league to play in, so what do you suggest, keep moaning about it?

doctornickolas wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:

Well it's the only competition in town so have to make the best of it.

Brilliant attitude.

Meaning?   There is no other league to play in, so what do you suggest, keep moaning about it?

Well yeah. Hopefully show discontent about it until the powers that be realise that this is a terrible competition which is causing the Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Italians to be left behind by England and France. Although to be fair they probabaly already realise that, and don't really care.

Or we could do absolutely nothing of course.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:

Well it's the only competition in town so have to make the best of it.

Brilliant attitude.

Meaning?   There is no other league to play in, so what do you suggest, keep moaning about it?

Well yeah. Hopefully show discontent about it until the powers that be realise that this is a terrible competition which is causing the Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Italians to be left behind by England and France. Although to be fair they probabaly already realise that, and don't really care.

Or we could do absolutely nothing of course.

So what is the alternative ??

doctornickolas wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:

Well it's the only competition in town so have to make the best of it.

Brilliant attitude.

Meaning?   There is no other league to play in, so what do you suggest, keep moaning about it?

Well yeah. Hopefully show discontent about it until the powers that be realise that this is a terrible competition which is causing the Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Italians to be left behind by England and France. Although to be fair they probabaly already realise that, and don't really care.

Or we could do absolutely nothing of course.

So what is the alternative ??

Campaign for a British and Irish League.
Campaign for the teams to negotiate their own countries tv deals

Chunky Norwich wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:

Well it's the only competition in town so have to make the best of it.

Brilliant attitude.

Meaning?   There is no other league to play in, so what do you suggest, keep moaning about it?

Well yeah. Hopefully show discontent about it until the powers that be realise that this is a terrible competition which is causing the Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Italians to be left behind by England and France. Although to be fair they probabaly already realise that, and don't really care.

Or we could do absolutely nothing of course.

So what is the alternative ??

Campaign for a British and Irish League.
Campaign for the teams to negotiate their own countries tv deals

But the English don't want a British and Irish League (or an Anglo-Welsh one) and the French are very happy, like England, with their own domestic league. So that brings us back to the 4 Pro12 countries. So what's plan B?

We try and try. You have a very pessamistic attitude.

This pathetic league isn't good enough.

Chunky Norwich wrote:We try and try. You have a very pessamistic attitude.

This pathetic league isn't good enough.

Really? I am saying we need to make the most of what we have got and you are the one constantly moaning about it and you say I have a pessimistic attitude.

I am trying to be realistic and asking a serious question. Without a B&I league what would your choice of competition be for our teams?

doctornickolas wrote:
I am trying to be realistic and asking a serious question. Without a B&I league what would your choice of competition be for our teams?

Welsh teams go in Aviva or Championship. Irish and Scots and Italians are left in their fab league.

Chunky Norwich wrote:We try and try. You have a very pessamistic attitude.

This pathetic league isn't good enough.

When it comes to the Pro 12, you're the king of pessimism!   

Chunky Norwich wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:
I am trying to be realistic and asking a serious question. Without a B&I league what would your choice of competition be for our teams?

Welsh teams go in Aviva or Championship. Irish and Scots and Italians are left in their fab league.

So you care just for the Welsh teams?

Where do you expect the Welsh teams to flourish, in the English championship?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:
I am trying to be realistic and asking a serious question. Without a B&I league what would your choice of competition be for our teams?

Welsh teams go in Aviva or Championship. Irish and Scots and Italians are left in their fab league.

So how exactly does that work? Exactly which English turkeys (clubs) are going to vote for Christmas to let the Welsh in? That's what it would take. Ain't gonna happen.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:
I am trying to be realistic and asking a serious question. Without a B&I league what would your choice of competition be for our teams?

Welsh teams go in Aviva or Championship. Irish and Scots and Italians are left in their fab league.

But the English don't want us in there. Never have and never will. So I'll ask the question again, what is the alternative?

If anyone can tell me what plan B is, you'll be doing better than Salmond in last night's independence debate!

If I was Welsh I would rather fight on my feet in the pro 12 than live on my knees in an Anglo Welsh setup. Most Welsh people I meet in the real world seem to feel the same. Although I obvious don't meet as many Welsh people as someone who lives in Wales..... I would suspect that our mate Norwich is probably on the extreme side in his anti pro 12 views.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:None that I'm aware of. I think they are waiting on the internal Welsh situation to sort itself out.

Why would they be waiting on that? The welsh teams have been told they are in the league by their Union. They have the weekends all fixed up.

I thought they messed up the first Anglo Welsh cup weekend and it clashed with one of the Pro12 ones?

Last I heard was the English were waiting on the Welsh to "sort their chit out" before this was resolved.

St John The Enforcer wrote:If I was Welsh I would rather fight on my feet in the pro 12 than live on my knees in an Anglo Welsh setup. Most Welsh people I meet in the real world seem to feel the same. Although I obvious don't meet as many Welsh people as someone who lives in Wales..... I would suspect that our mate Norwich is probably on the extreme side in his anti pro 12 views.

I'm not quite sure thats the expression, but it is one that serves Welsh rugby. From what I gather the PRL really did a number on the regions to divide the Pro 12 grip and stance point in negotiations, the Welsh regions are now left in a league they helped create far more difficult for themselves, and in a european wide tournament that allows them to rot away until the Rabo nations are no longer needed when they will be cast out with nothing.

The Pro12 has the makings of a very good competition. From a Welsh perspective the biggest problem I have is with the relationship between the regions and the WRU. I cannot for the life of me fathom why the WRU needs to, ahem, "negotiate" the TV deal. The regions receive the TV monies (after "sitting" in the WRU accounts for a bit) anyway so what practical purpose, other than acting like a Soviet state, does the WRU have in doing this? The regions have far more at stake on this particular point and besides anything else as things stand are the ones who pay the players wages and provide the product. They are far more motivated to negotiate than the WRU.

That being said looking at the teams in the Pro12, Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Ospreys and Glasgow of late have all been very strong teams with Scarlets and Blues also having some good seasons in that mix. The league has good sides. Now they have something to play for - RCC qualification. With Guiness on board as a sponsor (gutted about the TV deals - could have been done much better) things are indeed looking up for the competition.

It is potentially a great league. Just let the sides have more say in the competition and support them by making sure that test players are available as much as possible in order to keep the fans coming.

I think the league as a whole needed the RCC qualification we just now need the WRU and Regions to sort themselves out.

The WRU don't negotiate the TV deal. Celtic Rugby does (since John Feehan became CEO of Celtic Rugby about 3 years ago).

Up to then, the league had absolutely no money and were dependent on the goodwill of the Unions to keep them afloat.

WRU, SRU & IRFU are equal shareholders of the Celtic League.

Stuart Gallagher was a director of the company, but he retired last December.

Profit/turnover at end of 2013 was 12.6m euro. Compare this to the PRL budget, which is about 35m (and a has a staff of about 20), its fair to say the three shareholders (SRU, IRFU & WRU) must be subsidising it very heavily (whether it is providing match officials etc).

TV Scheduling has been poor for many years but again you can't please all people all the time etc etc

bedfordwelsh wrote:TV Scheduling has been poor for many years but again you can't please all people all the time etc etc

Very few leagues televise pretty much every game every weekend.

Sin é wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:TV Scheduling has been poor for many years but again you can't please all people all the time etc etc

Very few leagues televise pretty much every game every weekend.

Sin,

I agree on that but for those who want to go and see live games it does make it more difficult if its an evening KO on a Friday. That said if they were all Saturday afternoon games then the players from teams within a Region would struggle to see them play if wanted to due to fact they own games kicking off.

As am Embra season ticket holder I love Friday night games.

So different strokes for different folks.

I think in general, city clubs/provinces prefer Friday night games because it suits their supporters to head off after work and not have to travel back in on Saturday/Sunday.

Saturday afternoon suits Munster (around 5) because of the distances involved in getting to the games. Clubs could have their games starting at 2 which would mean if they were not near enough to go and watch it live, they could enjoy it in their rugby clubs on the tv.

Agreed with that Sin. For me leaving work at 5ish then having a pint somewhere in Edinburgh, then rocking up to Murrayfield about 7 works perfectly. Then I get the rest of the weekend to watch more rugby. But appreciate that won't work for everyone.

Sin é wrote:The WRU don't negotiate the TV deal. Celtic Rugby does (since John Feehan became CEO of Celtic Rugby about 3 years ago).

Up to then, the league had absolutely no money and were dependent on the goodwill of the Unions to keep them afloat.

WRU, SRU & IRFU are equal shareholders of the Celtic League.

Stuart Gallagher was a director of the company, but he retired last December.

Profit/turnover at end of 2013 was 12.6m euro.  Compare this to the PRL budget, which is about 35m (and a has a staff of about 20), its fair to say the three shareholders (SRU, IRFU & WRU) must be subsidising it very heavily (whether it is providing match officials etc).

This doesn't change the point. RRW should be selling rights to their own home games in the league. One vote in how many amongst union men? Doesn't cut the mustard.

Sky Sports Rugby tweeted;

Stayed tuned for confirmation of dates and times for #Pro12onSky, coming soon......

At 2pm today. But nothing on their website or twitter yet. It'll be on soon though I'd imagine they are now just waiting to announce their fixtures.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Sin é wrote:The WRU don't negotiate the TV deal. Celtic Rugby does (since John Feehan became CEO of Celtic Rugby about 3 years ago).

Up to then, the league had absolutely no money and were dependent on the goodwill of the Unions to keep them afloat.

WRU, SRU & IRFU are equal shareholders of the Celtic League.

Stuart Gallagher was a director of the company, but he retired last December.

Profit/turnover at end of 2013 was 12.6m euro.  Compare this to the PRL budget, which is about 35m (and a has a staff of about 20), its fair to say the three shareholders (SRU, IRFU & WRU) must be subsidising it very heavily (whether it is providing match officials etc).

This doesn't change the point. RRW should be selling rights to their own home games in the league. One vote in how many amongst union men? Doesn't cut the mustard.

Why should RRW be selling the rights to their home games?

Sin é wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Sin é wrote:The WRU don't negotiate the TV deal. Celtic Rugby does (since John Feehan became CEO of Celtic Rugby about 3 years ago).

Up to then, the league had absolutely no money and were dependent on the goodwill of the Unions to keep them afloat.

WRU, SRU & IRFU are equal shareholders of the Celtic League.

Stuart Gallagher was a director of the company, but he retired last December.

Profit/turnover at end of 2013 was 12.6m euro.  Compare this to the PRL budget, which is about 35m (and a has a staff of about 20), its fair to say the three shareholders (SRU, IRFU & WRU) must be subsidising it very heavily (whether it is providing match officials etc).

This doesn't change the point. RRW should be selling rights to their own home games in the league. One vote in how many amongst union men? Doesn't cut the mustard.

Why should RRW be selling the rights to their home games?

I've already explained that. It's in the post you replied to. It was one of the main points I made.

The WRU do not negotiate the media. The Celtic League does.

What I think you want is for the Celtic League to pay the RRW directly (from the 12m euro pot), by-passing the WRU?

Roger Lewis negotiated the BBCW deal previously (at least he was bragging he did), but it would have been done on behalf of Celtic Rugby

HammerofThunor wrote:Roger Lewis negotiated the BBCW deal previously (at least he was bragging he did), but it would have been done on behalf of Celtic Rugby

That was before Celtic Rugby actually had someone running it. It now has John Feehan as CEO (who is very experienced in this area as CEO of Six Nations & B&I Lions) took over the running of it about 3 years ago (after the last deal).

I did say that the Unions did most the work (obvously for free running the league back then). Roger got a good deal as far as I can remember as well.

Celtic League used to be based in Edinburgh by the way (until they came to realise that Dublin is to rugby what Silicon Valley is to IT).

Sin é wrote:The WRU do not negotiate the media. The Celtic League does.

What I think you want is for the Celtic League to pay the RRW directly (from the 12m euro pot), by-passing the WRU?

Yes, you've made that point before. WRU negotiate with their partners in the Celtic league. A technicality in this particular point. I dont want any union involvement in negotiating TV rights for RRW home games. I dont want the Celtic league to give us the monies and bypass the WRU. I want RRW to go to the broadcasters and negotiate rights to televise their home games directly. I appreciate that this may be different in Scotland and Ireland, but you dont have the same setup as us. The WRU cannot be trusted under Lewis and Pickering and the regions are dismayed at the dismal efforts they have made in selling the TV rights (and there are other missed commercial opportunities). Like I said, RRW have more motivation to get a lucrative deal. Let them pursue it as part of their business.

Neutralee wrote:

So you care just for the Welsh teams?

No, my first choice is a British ad Irish league, as I already said. But the other 3 seem to love this Celtic league - so if it was up to me -and a B&I league couldn't be sorted, they can have the celtic league as they seem to have no problem with it.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Sin é wrote:The WRU do not negotiate the media. The Celtic League does.

What I think you want is for the Celtic League to pay the RRW directly (from the 12m euro pot), by-passing the WRU?

Yes, you've made that point before. WRU negotiate with their partners in the Celtic league. A technicality in this particular point. I dont want any union involvement in negotiating TV rights for RRW home games. I dont want the Celtic league to give us the monies and bypass the WRU. I want RRW to go to the broadcasters and negotiate rights to televise their home games directly. I appreciate that this may be different in Scotland and Ireland, but you dont have the same setup as us. The WRU cannot be trusted under Lewis and Pickering and the regions are dismayed at the dismal efforts they have made in selling the TV rights (and there are other missed commercial opportunities). Like I said, RRW have more motivation to get a lucrative deal. Let them pursue it as part of their business.

Well said.

Private companies not being able to negotiate what are essentially pricing structures for their most prized products is nothing short of archaic.

while I have sympathy for the regions and think the WRU could be doing a lot more to help the situation. (Their plan seems to be "we can't afford to buy the money men out so let's kill them slowly")

The regions do not seem to be the smartest in their dealings. EG Stuart G resigning from the board of the Celtic league. How the F are they going to control their destiny without a voice in the league they play in.

and before someone says they want out of the CL and into the English setup. If the regions ever for a second thought that was a realistic option they are even less smart than I thought.

Even if it was remotely realistic, why burn their bridges before they were sure of it?

St. John, didn't Gallagher also resign from his post at RRW a few months later?

St John The Enforcer wrote: EG Stuart G resigning from the board of the Celtic league. How the F are they going to control their destiny without a voice in the league they play in.

Gallacher is not in the best of health.

and before someone says they want out of the CL and into the English setup. If the regions ever for a second thought that was a realistic option they are even less smart than I thought.

The Scarlets Operations Manager last week confirmed that it was a very real option, and talks with PRL were at an advanced stage in late 2013 as a secondary option if the RCC didn't go ahead.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Sin é wrote:The WRU do not negotiate the media. The Celtic League does.

What I think you want is for the Celtic League to pay the RRW directly (from the 12m euro pot), by-passing the WRU?

Yes, you've made that point before. WRU negotiate with their partners in the Celtic league. A technicality in this particular point. I dont want any union involvement in negotiating TV rights for RRW home games. I dont want the Celtic league to give us the monies and bypass the WRU. I want RRW to go to the broadcasters and negotiate rights to televise their home games directly. I appreciate that this may be different in Scotland and Ireland, but you dont have the same setup as us. The WRU cannot be trusted under Lewis and Pickering and the regions are dismayed at the dismal efforts they have made in selling the TV rights (and there are other missed commercial opportunities). Like I said, RRW have more motivation to get a lucrative deal. Let them pursue it as part of their business.

Repeating again - the Celtic League is run by Celtic Rugby Ltd (which is a private company) with a CEO. Are you saying that John Feehan is incompetent?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote: EG Stuart G resigning from the board of the Celtic league. How the F are they going to control their destiny without a voice in the league they play in.

Gallacher is not in the best of health.

and before someone says they want out of the CL and into the English setup. If the regions ever for a second thought that was a realistic option they are even less smart than I thought.

The Scarlets Operations Manager last week confirmed that it was a very real option, and talks with PRL were at an advanced stage in late 2013 as a secondary option if the RCC didn't go ahead.

Thats a very big 'if' there Chucky.

So the Regions backed the wrong horse again!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:St. John, didn't Gallagher also resign from his post at RRW a few months later?

Not sure mate. I remember him resigning from the ERC ok.

Surely someone should have replaced him?

Welsh rugby seems to be suffering from being neither fish nor foul. They are neither private clubs independent of their union like England or France, nor Union controlled like NZ, Aus, SA and their partners in the CL.

Personally I think sweeping the regions aside and forming new ones under union control is a bad idea, as you will have a lot of disenfranchised fans of current regions who will not support the new ones.

Currently there are fans who do not have a region that they identify with (valleys, north Wales etc.) But to bring them on board at the expense of current regional fans would just make a bad situation worse.

The WRU and the Regions have to work together in some way. Either more towards the Union controlled method or more independence for the regions.

Is there a way of encompassing the Valleys in a "new" region involving the dragons for example? Seeing as they don't seem to like being lumped in with Cardiff.

Yes. I know. I am an outsider and will never have a clue about Welsh Rugby..... Ah well.