Degale-Groves: The next great British Trilogy?

After scanning this forum I see a few 606ers writing off Degale as a world title no-hoper, saying he was found out by Groves. He was not outclassed in this fight in any shape or form. In fact, I felt in terms of talent and athleticism he was clearly Groves' superior. At the end of this fight I had myself agreeing for the first time in my life with Jim Watt, and had it 115-114 Degale.

On reflection though, I think Groves hands down deserved the decision. At the end of the day Degale was the one who was made to look silly and made mistakes, I also felt he should've had a point deduction with his dirty tactics incurred by frustration.

The core difference between the two fighters was that Adam Booth formed a perfect gameplan that completely nullified Degale's. To me, the fact that Groves had such a tactical supremacy and discipline over Degale yet only managed to squeak a verdict has convinced me that Degale would win a rematch very handily. He looked a division bigger and Groves was feeling his power, if the fight went another two rounds I think he would've been stopped.

Throughout the fight we saw all of Degale's flaws and none of Groves (except a susceptibilty to cuts), if a rematch occured there are clear cut areas that Degale's camp will know they need to focus on, Groves on the other hand can't really change much of a near-perfect performance and will have to stick with the same gameplan. Hence Degale, if made of stern stuff, will improve enough to take a verdict in a return when it happens in the coming years.

Some 606ers say that Degale will ignore his weaknesses because he felt he was robbed. Utter nonsense. Up to this point Degale has never lost a round, it'll only take one look in the mirror for the swellings and cuts to tell him a in-depth analysis and rethink of his fight game is called for if he is to survive at world level. The only real question for Degale is does he have a pro boxer's brain? Groves follwed his corner's orders to a tee and it paid off in abundance, he never caved into Degale's dirty tactics, and for me he's got it and a lot of it can be drawn from the Kenny Anderson experience.

What concerns me is that Degale was near clueless, at times panicked and never really found an effective counter-plan. If Degale believes he's destined to greatness with his substantial physical talents he need only look at the the two Hopkins-Pascal fights which for me, are the perfect anatomy of the difference between a very good fighter and a GREAT fighter. Hopkins was on his way to career-ending stoppage but changed tactics in the ring to change the tide. Pascal has had five months and 24 rounds to do the same and utterly failed, he will never progress further than he has.

Degale and Groves for me are both future champs who both deserve enormous credit for getting it on and not doing a Hatton-Witter and I can only thank them and wish them the best for the future in making the super-middle and light-heavy divisions as sources of great anticipation and entertainment for this British Boxing fan over the next seven years or so.

P.S. I was rooting for Groves before you jump on that wagon.

I dont think it will be a trilogy as I expect Groves to win any rematch. And this time more convincingly.

I can see DeGale winning a strap and Groves beating him in a unification. I just believe Groves has his number and whatever DeGale brings to the dance, Groves will have a better move to counter it.

That's what my mate says also. Assuming that should/when the rematch occured, assuming Degale would prepare a counter-plan for Groves fighting off the back foot tactic, what would Groves do different to win by a greater margin?

I'm not sure Groves could do anything more than he did to win by a larger margin. I still think DeGale is the more gifted but he might not be as mentally tough as Groves. He also has a tool as a trainer who offered him nothing during there fight.

prettyboykev wrote:I'm not sure Groves could do anything more than he did to win by a larger margin. I still think DeGale is the more gifted but he might not be as mentally tough as Groves. He also has a tool as a trainer who offered him nothing during there fight.

He may be the more gifted, but Groves is the more intelligent. I dont think even if he had a plan B last week Groves would have allowed him to execute it. Groves can brawl and box. Degale it seems cannot fight against an opponent who doesn't stand there to be hit.

I think Groves is seriously underestimated. Prhaps the Anderson fight is clouding people's judgement on him. That was the best thing that could have happened to him in that it taught him that cant walk through everyone or KO people he hits.

Crisprsea wrote:That's what my mate says also. Assuming that should/when the rematch occured, assuming Degale would prepare a counter-plan for Groves fighting off the back foot tactic, what would Groves do different to win by a greater margin?

Groves has better footwork and imo a lot in boxing has to do with footwork. Also he has a better brain and looks more rounded in that he can vary his style according to the opponent. It seems also that he listens properly to corner instructions and adapts mid fight. I believe he has the answer to anything Degale throws at him. Plus Degale is not a big hitter which helps. I dont know how many KOs (as opposed to stoppages) degale has. Many of them have been premature also.

Degale it seems cannot fight against an opponent who doesn't stand there to be hit.

That seems a bit harsh on a novice. Degale had never been in the trenches before this fight and Groves had. It made the world of difference. Degale was tactically stumped and did well to make it as close as it was.

And as to the superior footwork and boxing brain? I can buy into that but I do not think that the difference in footwork was all that much, in fact it was miniscule and it was Groves who was susceptible to loss of balance during the fight. Most of what you say Degale can improve in the gym and groves had better experience and lets face it, a world class corner. My only concern for Degale is the brain department but hey, an Olympic champ can't be completely boxing brainless can he? I won't be surprised if he changed trainer after this, might be a great move. For me Degale looked far more powerful than groves and groves couldn't really hurt him.

Crisprsea wrote: Degale it seems cannot fight against an opponent who doesn't stand there to be hit.

That seems a bit harsh on a novice. Degale had never been in the trenches before this fight and Groves had. It made the world of difference. Degale was tactically stumped and did well to make it as close as it was.

And as to the superior footwork and boxing brain? I can buy into that but I do not think that the difference in footwork was all that much, in fact it was miniscule and it was Groves who was susceptible to loss of balance during the fight. Most of what you say Degale can improve in the gym and groves had better experience and lets face a world class corner. My only concern for Degale is the brain department but hey, an Olympic champ can't be completely boxing brainless can he? I won't be surprised if he changed trainer after this, might be a great move. For me Degale looked far more powerful than groves and groves couldn't really hurt him.

I see degale in a similar manner to eubank in that if his opponent isn't attacking him, he looks clueless. Degale just walked forward and Groves picked him off. I have groves winning by 2 rounds. I dont think he can improve that too much even with experience.

He isn't boxing brainless. Just that Groves has a better boxing brain.

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azania wrote:

I see degale in a similar manner to eubank in that if his opponent isn't attacking him, he looks clueless. Degale just walked forward and Groves picked him off. I have groves winning by 2 rounds. I dont think he can improve that too much even with experience.

But don't you think that's a bit quick to write him off as one dimensional when this was the first time in his career he ever encountered anything like this and hadn't really expected it? It's also worth mentioning that although Groves was dominating most of the first half, Degale was the stronger in the final third, and I don't think Groves was running out of gas. Groves fought a clever clever fight, but's let's not get ahead of ourselves, he followed a rigidly set gameplan imprinted onto him by his trainer which he followed to a tee, if Degale had invented an effective counter-measure to this during the fight, a clever boxer can implement a counter-counter plan b. It can only be a theory until Groves tells us in the ring but my theory is that given Degale was winning a majority of the latter rounds and enjoying greater success, it was a fight that was right down to the wire Groves showed no inclination to alter anything, this suggests to me that he didn't have a back-up plan when plan A was so ingenious. But that's probably harsh on a novice. If he did have a PLan B up his sleeve I'm guessing he didn't want to risk it in a close fight.

Sigh, still haven't got the quote buisiness nailed down.

[quote="Crisprsea"]

azania wrote:

I see degale in a similar manner to eubank in that if his opponent isn't attacking him, he looks clueless. Degale just walked forward and Groves picked him off. I have groves winning by 2 rounds. I dont think he can improve that too much even with experience.

But don't you think that's a bit quick to write him off as one dimensional when this was the first time in his career he ever encountered anything like this and hadn't really expected it? It's also worth mentioning that although Groves was dominating most of the first half, Degale was the stronger in the final third, and I don't think Groves was running out of gas. Groves fought a clever clever fight, but's let's not get ahead of ourselves, he followed a rigidly set gameplan imprinted onto him by his trainer which he followed to a tee, if Degale had invented an effective counter-measure to this during the fight, a clever boxer can implement a counter-counter plan b. It can only be a theory until Groves tells us in the ring but my theory is that given Degale was winning a majority of the latter rounds and enjoying greater success, it was a fight that was right down to the wire Groves showed no inclination to alter anything, this suggests to me that he didn't have a back-up plan when plan A was so ingenious. But that's probably harsh on a novice. If he did have a PLan B up his sleeve I'm guessing he didn't want to risk it in a close fight.

I'm not writing him off as one dimensiona. Its just that his strengths do not include chasing a fight. Even at the end when he was chasing, he didn't impress me. But that can improve but not by much. Groves on the other hand has looked better when he has had to go looking for the other guy.

But why was Degale chasing? It was because he was behind and was forced to delve into an area he has not had to go down for at least 3 years. And let's be clear Groves did what he did very well and Degale lost his head and looked very raw and panicky, he was panicking by the third. A experienced fighter would've played it cool and that in itself would make a great difference. Degale looked shoddy and Groves looked great but the result was a 115-114 for Groves, Degale was seen to be lacking exp in many many areas, Groves significantly less so. As for Groves as looking good attacking, I doubt he would do that against someone as big as Degale and get away with it now that he is at a high domestic level.

Crisprsea wrote:But why was Degale chasing? It was because he was behind and was forced to delve into an area he has not had to go down for at least 3 years. And let's be clear Groves did what he did very well and Degale lost his head and looked very raw and panicky, he was panicking by the third. A experienced fighter would've played it cool and that in itself would make a great difference. Degale looked shoddy and Groves looked great but the result was a 115-114 for Groves, Degale was seen to be lacking exp in many many areas, Groves significantly less so. As for Groves as looking good attacking, I doubt he would do that against someone as big as Degale and get away with it now that he is at a high domestic level.

The answer is why was he behind and having to chase the fight?

Its not experience either as Degale has more experience having fought in high pressure events like the olympics. Groves wouldn't need to attack degale. He can mix it up and change styles whereas degale has not shown any evidence of that yet.

I think Degale was a bit nonplussed by Groves moving rather than coming at him. When he started mixing it at the end he did so much better. I think Degale gave Groves' power a bit too much respect, he didn't look hurt by any shots during the fight but seemed reluctant to press. I agree with the OP in that I think Groves has one way to win a fight between the two, which we saw executed, and in a rematch Degale could well nullify this tactic.