Ireland vs South Africa 8th of November

First topic message reminder :

In six days time Ireland will host South Africa in their first test of the November tours. South Africa will have to lift themselves for this one as the standard under Meyer has ben exemplary in Europe, he is yet to lose a test match and the Six Nations champions gets first shot at breaking Meyer's unbeaten streak over the Six Nations teams.

It seems both teams are effected by injuries so their depth will be severely tested.

South African players unavailable due to injury.

Props - Marcel v d Merwe, Frans Malherbe
Hooker - Schalk Brits, Callie Visagie
Locks - Pieter Steph du Toit, Flip v d Merwe
Back Row - Frans Louw, Willem Alberts, Siya Kolisi, Arno Botha
Halfback - Fourie du Preez, Ruan Pienaar (Pending a fitness test)
Midfield - Jaque Fourie

Irish players unavailable due to injury.
Props - Healy, Moore, Ross (Questionable)
Hooker - Cronin, Best (questionable)
Locks - Tuohy, Ryan
Back Row - Henderson, Murphy, O'Brien
Halfback -
Flyhalf - Sexton (Questionable)
Midfield - Darcy (questionable)
Back Three - Kearney, Earls, Trimble, Fitzgerald, McFadden, Bowe (questionable)

Ireland has been rather successful against South Africa in the last decade, managing wins in 2004, 2006 and 2009.

South Africa 31 - 17 Ireland
South Africa 26 - 17 Ireland
Ireland 17 - 12 South Africa
Ireland 32 - 15 South Africa
Ireland 15 - 10 South Africa
Ireland 21 - 23 South Africa
Ireland 12 - 16 South Africa

Likely matchday 23 for South Africa.

1. Tendai Mtwarira
2. Bismarck du Plessis
3. Jannie du PLessis
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Victor Matfield
6. Marcell Coetzee
7. Oupa Mohoje
8. Duane Vermeulen
9. Francois Hougaard
10. Handre Pollard
11. Brya Habana
12. Jean de Villiers
13. Jan Serfontein
14. Cornal Hendricks
15. Willie le Roux.

Subs
16. Coenie Oosthuizen
17. Adriaan Strauss
18. Julian Redelinghuys
19. Bakkies Botha
20. Schalk Burger
21. Cobus Reinach
22. Johan Goosen
23. Patrick Lambie/Damien de Allende

Likely Irish matchday 23. (Help please)

Ireland will be keen to beat the Springboks, even though they are unlikely to meet them in earlier rounds of the RWC it will give them validation and confidence for the Rugby World Cup. Under their new coach I expect them to throw the ball around and attempt to run the SPringboks off their feet, Ireland is also more used to the conditions and could use that to their advantage, I suspect the territorial game will be part of their plans.

It is easier sad than done though, the only team in recent years that managed to run the Springboks off their feet was New Zealand, and that was at altitude. South Africa these days play more adventurous rugby and at a great pace as well, newcomer Handre POllard will be on his first trip to Europe, so it might take him a while to adapt, but once on song he will be the danger man, South Africa attacks a lot flatter without Morne Steyn which does provide more hesitation in opposition defences and creates more space for their outside backs.

One issue with South Africa this season has been their inconsistency in performances, and they will have to be on song from the start.

Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer has warned his team they will need to be at their best if they are to keep their unbeaten record under his management in the northern hemisphere intact.

Meyer singled out the team’s first fixture against Ireland as a crucial one to kick off the team’s four week tour, and one which is the most tricky of all their fixtures.

The Boks know they cannot focus on the Twickenham showdown before getting past the tricky Irish, who have been a team that has plagued them at this time of year under previous coaches.

The Boks will know all too well how a poor opening performance can set the trend for the tour, and with chances to experiment getting less and less ahead of the World Cup, it is imperative that the team kick off the tour on a high note.

“We have a proud record and we haven’t lost a game there. But we have a proud record and this is probably the toughest tour we have faced to the Northern Hemisphere. I truly believe Ireland is an unbelievable team, they were unlucky not to beat the All Blacks last year.

“They’ve got a great coaching staff, a lot of in-form players and their defence is great. They’ve got a good kicking game in those conditions."

That's it boys, enjoy the discussion.

What? Ireland go to SA when SA are in Europe? They'd miss each other wouldn't they when the anthems were played?

The answer though I think is three times in June 2016.

ME, I have a weird feeling we'll be marmalised.  And yet....... oh I don't bloody know!  Maybe all the injuries and shyte play from all of us at Provincial level is just a lengthy con and the guys will hit the ground running with surprise surprise abilities to actually create some sly holes to run through.

I wonder if the Irish can remember where South Africa is, luckily they have one or two Saffers in their squad that can help point it out on a World Map

Biltong wrote:I wonder if the Irish can remember where South Africa is, luckily they have one or two Saffers in their squad that can help point it out on a World Map

In fairness Biltong the name of your country kind of gives it away,it's probably the easiest country in the world to find.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Biltong wrote:I wonder if the Irish can remember where South Africa is, luckily they have one or two Saffers in their squad that can help point it out on a World Map

In fairness Biltong the name of your country kind of gives it away,it's probably the easiest country in the world to find.

You would think, eh?

But it seems it is not so simple.

ME-109 wrote:Hey Fly...I'm with Guns here ( ) we should be expecting a win....at the very least. No ah sure lets be competitive and I dont expect Schmidt believes anything other than a win is possible no matter what noises are coming from the camp. Also I couldnt give too figs how we do it (a 3-0 win would do for me).

Correct. It doesnt matter how we win as long as we win and we should be winning these games. If it means we have to be negative or sneeky or whatever who cares. There is always a way to win even as under dogs.

Lets be competitive is loser talk.

Are Ireland really underdogs?

Six Nations Champs, at home?

Biltong wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Biltong wrote:I wonder if the Irish can remember where South Africa is, luckily they have one or two Saffers in their squad that can help point it out on a World Map

In fairness Biltong the name of your country kind of gives it away,it's probably the easiest country in the world to find.

You would think, eh?

But it seems it is not so simple.

Lol yeah it's really odd that we haven't played you guys away in so long.I wonder what the reasoning for it is,still when we clean sweep you in 2016 you'll be wishing we stayed away longer

Biltong wrote:

You would think, eh?

But it seems it is not so simple.

Who got it wrong? Thats geography 101.

Id understand if someone didnt know what the capital city of SA was.

Biltong wrote:Are Ireland really underdogs?

Six Nations Champs, at home?

According to the bookies we're 9/5 or 5 points on the handicap underdogs,I quite fancy us as that price.I think we'd be closer to 13/8 dogs or 3 points myself.

Biltong wrote:Are Ireland really underdogs?

Six Nations Champs, at home?

I think you should be under dogs if you lose your last game against the team you are playing and we did. If you ask the population of SA Id say 99% would say SA are favorites.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Biltong wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Biltong wrote:I wonder if the Irish can remember where South Africa is, luckily they have one or two Saffers in their squad that can help point it out on a World Map

In fairness Biltong the name of your country kind of gives it away,it's probably the easiest country in the world to find.

You would think, eh?

But it seems it is not so simple.

Lol yeah it's really odd that we haven't played you guys away in so long.I wonder what the reasoning for it is,still when we clean sweep you in 2016 you'll be wishing we stayed away longer

Well, I look forward to your next tour, and will console you with a braai after the match.

That is of course on condition that you have joined the tour to SA

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:Are Ireland really underdogs?

Six Nations Champs, at home?

I think you should be under dogs if you lose your last game against the team you are playing and we did. If you ask the population of SA Id say 99% would say SA are favorites.

75% of South Africans don't follow rugby.

Biltong wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Biltong wrote:I wonder if the Irish can remember where South Africa is, luckily they have one or two Saffers in their squad that can help point it out on a World Map

In fairness Biltong the name of your country kind of gives it away,it's probably the easiest country in the world to find.

You would think, eh?

But it seems it is not so simple.

This point seems to vex you quite a bit over the years, Biltong.  "Where's the Irish?"  

There seems to be a few hints in the query.  One of the main ones, and let's not beat about the realism bush here, is probably cowardice.  "Are the Irish cowards?", seems to be the continuing wink.

Well..................... maybe they are.  It's a possibility.  But let's find an answer to it by putting the question to the only two organisations that can provide an answer.  The Irish and the South African Unions.

Write your letters to both those guys and see if their answers match up.  You see my idea of an International outfit that refuses point-blank to play games in an opponents territory, whilst that opponent freely comes to theirs, is that such an act would be spiffingly unsporting of the rotters.
But then, if such a truth is self evident, I'd also query the stupidity of the South African Union not to make an issue of it: as in telling the Irish bluntly...you don't come and play here then wave bye bye to any game against us at all.  We won't play you unless you reciprocate.

That'd get some mileage in print, I'd imagine  But no......................... seems to be slience on all fronts.  So again - a letter to both Unions might clear the clouds.

Good comment Fly.

As far as the SARU goes they simply don't give a hoot about supporters, I have emailed them on a few occasions and have never received any response.

I do agree with you I find it intriguing as to why SA keeps touring Ireland when they don't reciprocate, and also what the reasons is.

But, to be honest, it has been a great source of entertainment for me over the years as every time I mention it you guys squirm uncomfortably

The reason is because SA refuse to wear their away kit when they play at home v Ireland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7UASkTSJMQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maoFDg0wK20

Lineout

I would say the lineout whilst still very good is heavily reliant on Matfield. Who are the genuine additional jumpers for the boks? Etzebeth no, Vermeulen no

Put the heat on Matfield... make him call moves outside of himself and that will put pressure on the boks to throw to the back. They don't really have a front jumper.

Scrums

I can't recall who packs behind Jannie but I think its Victor. Eben usually packs behind the loosehead. That's the area you will want to target... and where Argentina managed to get a nudge on SA.

Rucks

Coetzee has proven to be quite effective on the floor as of late. He bettered Hooper over 80 mins in Newlands so is showing his worth. Bismarck too adds a lot of steal ability. I think Ireland have to be very careful to retain possession. Too many sole drives could cause turnovers.

Midfield

I would send Bowe thundering down Serfontein at every opportunity. Jan is a good tackler but clever lines and balls at pace will show him up. A BOD of 5 years ago would have loved a crack at him.

Hougaard.

Great with the ball in hand. Ok pass but if you heavily mark Pollard you could enforce Hougaard to clear lines himself more.

Pollard

As talented and composed as he looks I still think you can target Pollard. He's still in his first season of test rugby and whilst he's done very well thus far, put him on the backfoot, see what's he's made of. Remember in 2004 when Burger took the 3N by storm but then came to Europe and got his a.ss handed to him. Got two yellows and was smashed to pieces by Corry... he still says it was the toughest match he ever played.
The NH suits different players and I think they can severely test Pollard.

I think Ireland have it within themselves to make a game of it. Not sure how their injuries will impact their game mind so its difficult to tell.

We have the "system" fa...the Joe "system" can overcome all issues. Our injuries included.

Also Poite is reffing so expect Ireland to flood the breakdown..

Big Victor Matfield reckons O'Connell is the best player he has ever played against:

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/victor-matfield-oconnell-odriscoll-1761465-Nov2014/

POC has never lost at home to SA.

Don't put pressure on him...he's not getting younger.

Pressure makes diamonds.

Unfortunate analogy there as SA know more about them too.

SecretFly wrote:Unfortunate analogy there as SA know more about them too.

Lineout
I would say the lineout whilst still very good is heavily reliant on Matfield. Who are the genuine additional jumpers for the boks? Etzebeth no, Vermeulen no

Put the heat on Matfield... make him call moves outside of himself and that will put pressure on the boks to throw to the back. They don't really have a front jumper.

Line out takes for SA during the RC
Victor 23
Eben 14
Duane 17

Scrums
I can't recall who packs behind Jannie but I think its Victor. Eben usually packs behind the loosehead. That's the area you will want to target... and where Argentina managed to get a nudge on SA.

Argentina concentrate their power on the hooker, imagine a wedge formation. They then also have a low body position and they manage their breathing on a count. This way they can concentrate ther second shove as one collective group with the wedge pressurising the Hooker, that is the reason why Bismarck popped out.

Rucks

Coetzee has proven to be quite effective on the floor as of late. He bettered Hooper over 80 mins in Newlands so is showing his worth. Bismarck too adds a lot of steal ability. I think Ireland have to be very careful to retain possession. Too many sole drives could cause turnovers.

Agree

Midfield

I would send Bowe thundering down Serfontein at every opportunity. Jan is a good tackler but clever lines and balls at pace will show him up. A BOD of 5 years ago would have loved a crack at him.

Serfontein made 53 tackles and missed 7 during the RC, the problem wasn't him though. The Springboks have the tendency to have Jean move to 13 on defence, they also have him shoot out early out of the line so that visually he shows the opposition he is cutting off the outside pass. But when the attack is flat he will wait to shoot out for the intercept or take the man and ball at the same time, on the occasions that he misses the an or ball he creates a gap which can be exploited and that causes undue stress on Serfontein as he has to defend two channels.

Hougaard.

Great with the ball in hand. Ok pass but if you heavily mark Pollard you could enforce Hougaard to clear lines himself more.

Not sure how you are going to do that, at set phase it is not an issue and at the breakdown it depends on how we clear the ruck, Hougaard's pass has improved a lot and he is quick on the ball, on defence he has a hell of a lot of pace and on attack he is strong. His only perceived weakness is his accuracy of his kicking, which in my view is a plus because he kicks a lot less than Pienaar or du Preez.

Pollard
As talented and composed as he looks I still think you can target Pollard. He's still in his first season of test rugby and whilst he's done very well thus far, put him on the backfoot, see what's he's made of. Remember in 2004 when Burger took the 3N by storm but then came to Europe and got his a.ss handed to him. Got two yellows and was smashed to pieces by Corry... he still says it was the toughest match he ever played.
The NH suits different players and I think they can severely test Pollard.

You are comparing a flanker with a pivot. Not remotely the same thing.

Pollard's biggest weakness is he can err in his tactical kicking now and then, but he can also fix his mistakes.[/quote]

GunsGerms wrote:Big Victor Matfield reckons O'Connell is the best player he has ever played against:

Vic's opinion will change when he comes up against Big Dev next weekend

BB

what I'm saying about Pollard is that I think Ireland should concentrate on throwing him off his game. He gets an armchair ride with the bulls and SA. Just saying that there is a lot of hype about him, a lot of it justified but at the moment a lot of it unproven.. a lot like Burger in 2004.

In terms of Serfontein... he doesn't miss many tackles at all. But a greater slow tackler is still slow. And if he can't catch up to a guy his tackling figures stay the same... you don't get a miss tackle for failing to catch up with a guy.

The only weakenss Dev has is he needs two drivers for his feet because he sometimes loses track of where they are when his brain tells them what to do but they only get the message 3 seconds later.

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Big Victor Matfield reckons O'Connell is the best player he has ever played against:

Vic's opinion will change when he comes up against Big Dev next weekend

sounds like a musician's typical shout out at every concert he plays that the audience tonight is the best ever. I wonder if will say that after the match rather than before. They have had some battles though. Probably the most constant as their careers have been in sync in terms of debut etc.

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Big Victor Matfield reckons O'Connell is the best player he has ever played against:

Vic's opinion will change when he comes up against Big Dev next weekend

Well said.

It's all about Paulie's perfect Afrikaans..or his knowledge of it. That's the memory that lingers for Matfield

fa0019 wrote:BB

what I'm saying about Pollard is that I think Ireland should concentrate on throwing him off his game. He gets an armchair ride with the bulls and SA. Just saying that there is a lot of hype about him, a lot of it justified but at the moment a lot of it unproven.. a lot like Burger in 2004.

In terms of Serfontein... he doesn't miss many tackles at all. But a greater slow tackler is still slow. And if he can't catch up to a guy his tackling figures stay the same... you don't get a miss tackle for failing to catch up with a guy.

You and your obsession with Serfonteins perceived lack of speed . The question you need to ask is how many times does he have to run back to make a tackle and even when he has to do that .By definition the opposition player has a headstart if Serfontein has to turn around and chase . As for Pollard I agree he could be rattled and proved ineffective . The main problem with that approach is giving more space to the more dangerous Le Roux on attack at second phase where he so regularly shows up . But your point is very correct Pollard could be exposed in which case Heyneke should do as he's done before when he under-performs .. bring on the LAMB

FA, why do you suggest Serfontein is slow?

He is certainly faster than Jaque Fourie, I doubt Jean is any faster than him.

fa0019 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Big Victor Matfield reckons O'Connell is the best player he has ever played against:

Vic's opinion will change when he comes up against Big Dev next weekend

sounds like a musician's typical shout out at every concert he plays that the audience tonight is the best ever. I wonder if will say that after the match rather than before. They have had some battles though. Probably the most constant as their careers have been in sync in terms of debut etc.

No, its not a one off. Matfield said the same when he retired (you know all these questions they get asked).

Maybe though, he is having a bit of a dig at the Kiwis  

For the record, POC reckoned Pelous was the best lock he came up against!

Biltong wrote:FA, why do you suggest Serfontein is slow?

He is certainly faster than Jaque Fourie, I doubt Jean is any faster than him.

I'd be surprised about that. Serfontein was gassed by Adam Ashley-Cooper over 50 metres. He looks pedestrian. When did you last see Serfontein bust the gut? Adam Ashley-Cooper is not rapid either, quick but not fast fast. One chap is 30, the other is 22 at probable peak speed.

You not heard everyone else worry about his lack of gas. Compare him to Engelbrecht.....

Engelbrecht is wing fast, Serfontein is centre fast, I tried to find a clip on youtube to compare his pace but there aren't much.

There'll be some youtube stuff on Monday, Bilt. Don't be impatient.

I just don't understand why JJ is not in the Bok squad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdhx9Gio0o0

SecretFly wrote:There'll be some youtube stuff on Monday, Bilt.  Don't be impatient.

That will be Mike Ross doing a wide arch loop around Serfontein at full stretch right????

Biltong wrote:I just don't understand why JJ is not in the Bok squad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdhx9Gio0o0

No one in the squad which offers his particular skills set. Must have upset Heyneke somehow.. only centrally contracted bok out of the squad... and has been out all year.

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:FA, why do you suggest Serfontein is slow?

He is certainly faster than Jaque Fourie, I doubt Jean is any faster than him.

I'd be surprised about that. Serfontein was gassed by Adam Ashley-Cooper over 50 metres. He looks pedestrian. When did you last see Serfontein bust the gut? Adam Ashley-Cooper is not rapid either, quick but not fast fast. One chap is 30, the other is 22 at probable peak speed.

You not heard everyone else worry about his lack of gas. Compare him to Engelbrecht.....

Both Englebrecht and AAC have/are capable of playing wing . Besides Serfontein is not the first to be left eating dust by AAC . Thats like saying Conrad Smith is a slow 13 because he got beat in a footrace by Engelbrecht another winger who moonlights as a center

Bullsbok wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:FA, why do you suggest Serfontein is slow?

He is certainly faster than Jaque Fourie, I doubt Jean is any faster than him.

I'd be surprised about that. Serfontein was gassed by Adam Ashley-Cooper over 50 metres. He looks pedestrian. When did you last see Serfontein bust the gut? Adam Ashley-Cooper is not rapid either, quick but not fast fast. One chap is 30, the other is 22 at probable peak speed.

You not heard everyone else worry about his lack of gas. Compare him to Engelbrecht.....

Both Englebrecht and AAC have/are capable of playing wing . Besides Serfontein is not the first to be left eating dust by AAC . Thats like saying Conrad Smith is  a slow 13 because he got beat in a footrace by Engelbrecht another winger who moonlights as a center

The problem with 13 is that either you have to be on the money every time in terms of your awareness and timing or you have to have pace to make up for it. If not you will get left for dead.
Its true that Smith doesn't have pure pace either but he has an excellent level of awareness which makes up for it. Guys like JJ, Tuilagi and Ashley-Cooper make up for it via their pace. They can track back, can chase down.

We all know Serfontein is not a 13, we all know he's a 12 and that he is JDV successor post RWC. But whilst he is defensively strong, he has specific weaknesses which are very difficult to mitigate against.  I imagine he will be targeted by most sides.

fa0019 wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:FA, why do you suggest Serfontein is slow?

He is certainly faster than Jaque Fourie, I doubt Jean is any faster than him.

I'd be surprised about that. Serfontein was gassed by Adam Ashley-Cooper over 50 metres. He looks pedestrian. When did you last see Serfontein bust the gut? Adam Ashley-Cooper is not rapid either, quick but not fast fast. One chap is 30, the other is 22 at probable peak speed.

You not heard everyone else worry about his lack of gas. Compare him to Engelbrecht.....

Both Englebrecht and AAC have/are capable of playing wing . Besides Serfontein is not the first to be left eating dust by AAC . Thats like saying Conrad Smith is  a slow 13 because he got beat in a footrace by Engelbrecht another winger who moonlights as a center

The problem with 13 is that either you have to be on the money every time in terms of your awareness and timing or you have to have pace to make up for it. If not you will get left for dead.
Its true that Smith doesn't have pure pace either but he has an excellent level of awareness which makes up for it. Guys like JJ, Tuilagi and Ashley-Cooper make up for it via their pace. They can track back, can chase down.

We all know Serfontein is not a 13, we all know he's a 12 and that he is JDV successor post RWC. But whilst he is defensively strong, he has specific weaknesses which are very difficult to mitigate against.  I imagine he will be targeted by most sides.

Well he's played against the top 2 sides in the world and hasnt let himself down , in fact he's outperformed his centre partner and captain defensively .If anything JDV is the weakness in the Bok centre not Serfontein i dont know how you fail to see this . Most breaks in the midfield are because of JDV shooting up leaving gaps not the other way round . Serfontein topping the tackle count would suggest to me he's quite defensively competent

Bullsbok wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:FA, why do you suggest Serfontein is slow?

He is certainly faster than Jaque Fourie, I doubt Jean is any faster than him.

I'd be surprised about that. Serfontein was gassed by Adam Ashley-Cooper over 50 metres. He looks pedestrian. When did you last see Serfontein bust the gut? Adam Ashley-Cooper is not rapid either, quick but not fast fast. One chap is 30, the other is 22 at probable peak speed.

You not heard everyone else worry about his lack of gas. Compare him to Engelbrecht.....

Both Englebrecht and AAC have/are capable of playing wing . Besides Serfontein is not the first to be left eating dust by AAC . Thats like saying Conrad Smith is  a slow 13 because he got beat in a footrace by Engelbrecht another winger who moonlights as a center

The problem with 13 is that either you have to be on the money every time in terms of your awareness and timing or you have to have pace to make up for it. If not you will get left for dead.
Its true that Smith doesn't have pure pace either but he has an excellent level of awareness which makes up for it. Guys like JJ, Tuilagi and Ashley-Cooper make up for it via their pace. They can track back, can chase down.

We all know Serfontein is not a 13, we all know he's a 12 and that he is JDV successor post RWC. But whilst he is defensively strong, he has specific weaknesses which are very difficult to mitigate against.  I imagine he will be targeted by most sides.

Well he's played against the top 2 sides in the world and hasnt let himself down , in fact he's outperformed his centre partner and captain defensively .If anything JDV is the weakness in the Bok centre not Serfontein i dont know how you fail to see this . Most breaks in the midfield are because of JDV shooting up leaving gaps not the other way round . Serfontein topping the tackle count would suggest to me he's quite defensively competent

Nothing to do with his tackling which have been very impressive.

Tell me... if you fail to catch someone does that count as a missed tackle?

Maybe in defence... but Serfontein is a passenger on offense.

fa0019 wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:FA, why do you suggest Serfontein is slow?

He is certainly faster than Jaque Fourie, I doubt Jean is any faster than him.

I'd be surprised about that. Serfontein was gassed by Adam Ashley-Cooper over 50 metres. He looks pedestrian. When did you last see Serfontein bust the gut? Adam Ashley-Cooper is not rapid either, quick but not fast fast. One chap is 30, the other is 22 at probable peak speed.

You not heard everyone else worry about his lack of gas. Compare him to Engelbrecht.....

Both Englebrecht and AAC have/are capable of playing wing . Besides Serfontein is not the first to be left eating dust by AAC . Thats like saying Conrad Smith is  a slow 13 because he got beat in a footrace by Engelbrecht another winger who moonlights as a center

The problem with 13 is that either you have to be on the money every time in terms of your awareness and timing or you have to have pace to make up for it. If not you will get left for dead.
Its true that Smith doesn't have pure pace either but he has an excellent level of awareness which makes up for it. Guys like JJ, Tuilagi and Ashley-Cooper make up for it via their pace. They can track back, can chase down.

We all know Serfontein is not a 13, we all know he's a 12 and that he is JDV successor post RWC. But whilst he is defensively strong, he has specific weaknesses which are very difficult to mitigate against.  I imagine he will be targeted by most sides.

Serfontein has played 16 tests for South Africa, only 29 tries (1.8 tries per match) has been scored against us in that time, with New Zealand scoring 13 tries in the 4 tests Serfontein played. The other nations scored 16 tries in 12 test matches.

Apart from New Zealand who is going to exploit him?

Biltong wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:FA, why do you suggest Serfontein is slow?

He is certainly faster than Jaque Fourie, I doubt Jean is any faster than him.

I'd be surprised about that. Serfontein was gassed by Adam Ashley-Cooper over 50 metres. He looks pedestrian. When did you last see Serfontein bust the gut? Adam Ashley-Cooper is not rapid either, quick but not fast fast. One chap is 30, the other is 22 at probable peak speed.

You not heard everyone else worry about his lack of gas. Compare him to Engelbrecht.....

Both Englebrecht and AAC have/are capable of playing wing . Besides Serfontein is not the first to be left eating dust by AAC . Thats like saying Conrad Smith is  a slow 13 because he got beat in a footrace by Engelbrecht another winger who moonlights as a center

The problem with 13 is that either you have to be on the money every time in terms of your awareness and timing or you have to have pace to make up for it. If not you will get left for dead.
Its true that Smith doesn't have pure pace either but he has an excellent level of awareness which makes up for it. Guys like JJ, Tuilagi and Ashley-Cooper make up for it via their pace. They can track back, can chase down.

We all know Serfontein is not a 13, we all know he's a 12 and that he is JDV successor post RWC. But whilst he is defensively strong, he has specific weaknesses which are very difficult to mitigate against.  I imagine he will be targeted by most sides.

Serfontein has played 16 tests for South Africa, only 29 tries (1.8 tries per match) has been scored against us in that time, with New Zealand scoring 13 tries in the 4 tests Serfontein played. The other nations scored 16 tries in 12 test matches.

Apart from New Zealand who is going to exploit him?

Its a team game in the end BB. If one player misses a tackle, fails to catch someone its not like the other 14 stop dead.

I mean a 30+ AAC absolutely blitzed him in Newlands. They smashed the door down for his 50 metre try.

In the end I'd rather have JJ offering a 75% chance of making a tackle than Jan offering a 0% tackle in the loose even though in the tight Jan's figures would be 90% to 75% if you catch my drift.

13 needs a player who has a great rugby brain to read attacks and the pace to fall back on if it fails.

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:FA, why do you suggest Serfontein is slow?

He is certainly faster than Jaque Fourie, I doubt Jean is any faster than him.

I'd be surprised about that. Serfontein was gassed by Adam Ashley-Cooper over 50 metres. He looks pedestrian. When did you last see Serfontein bust the gut? Adam Ashley-Cooper is not rapid either, quick but not fast fast. One chap is 30, the other is 22 at probable peak speed.

You not heard everyone else worry about his lack of gas. Compare him to Engelbrecht.....

Both Englebrecht and AAC have/are capable of playing wing . Besides Serfontein is not the first to be left eating dust by AAC . Thats like saying Conrad Smith is  a slow 13 because he got beat in a footrace by Engelbrecht another winger who moonlights as a center

The problem with 13 is that either you have to be on the money every time in terms of your awareness and timing or you have to have pace to make up for it. If not you will get left for dead.
Its true that Smith doesn't have pure pace either but he has an excellent level of awareness which makes up for it. Guys like JJ, Tuilagi and Ashley-Cooper make up for it via their pace. They can track back, can chase down.

We all know Serfontein is not a 13, we all know he's a 12 and that he is JDV successor post RWC. But whilst he is defensively strong, he has specific weaknesses which are very difficult to mitigate against.  I imagine he will be targeted by most sides.

Serfontein has played 16 tests for South Africa, only 29 tries (1.8 tries per match) has been scored against us in that time, with New Zealand scoring 13 tries in the 4 tests Serfontein played. The other nations scored 16 tries in 12 test matches.

Apart from New Zealand who is going to exploit him?

Its a team game in the end BB. If one player misses a tackle, fails to catch someone its not like the other 14 stop dead.

I mean a 30+ AAC absolutely blitzed him in Newlands. They smashed the door down for his 50 metre try.

In the end I'd rather have JJ offering a 75% chance of making a tackle than Jan offering a 0% tackle in the loose even though in the tight Jan's figures would be 90% to 75% if you catch my drift.

13 needs a player who has a great rugby brain to read attacks and the pace to fall back on if it fails.

If its a tackle in the loose to be made thats a problem for the people who are meant to making tackles in the loose mainly Le Roux at fb and the sweeping wingers and Scrumhalves. To blame Serfontein because someone ran 50m to score a try through his channel is unfair . What you need to ask is why the centre had to run back 50m where was the fullback and Wingers

FA, whilst I agree with you JJ should be at 13 and Jan at 12, it is not going to happen as de Villiers has compromising photos of Meyer and will only release them after the 2015 RWC.

However your suggestion that Serfontein doesn't get to tackles because AAC went past him once is fraught with conjecture.

Please tell me when this burst occurred so I can see what you are talking about.

Biltong wrote:FA, whilst I agree with you JJ should be at 13 and Jan at 12, it is not going to happen as de Villiers has compromising photos of Meyer and will only release them after the 2015 RWC.

However your suggestion that Serfontein doesn't get to tackles because AAC went past him once is fraught with conjecture.

Please tell me when this burst occurred so I can see what you are talking about.

Don't you remember AAC's try at Newlands? Serfontein and AAC were level at the halfway line and then suddenly he turned the gas on and Serfontein couldn't react... you could see him trying and yet it looked like he was going backwards.