England vs South Africa November 15th 2014

Courtney Lawes is a doubt, since he is going through concussion protocols. That would see Kruis start and Kitchener on the bench, unless Lancaster wants to do something funky with Clark. Luther Burrell not in contention, and Stephen Myler still out with a hamstring problem. Haskell is there.

England team to face South Africa:

Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Anthony Watson (Bath)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath)
Jonny May (Gloucester)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton)
David Wilson (Bath)
Dave Attwood (Bath)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton)
Tom Wood (Northampton)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Replacements

Rob Webber (Bath), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle), George Kruis (Saracens), Ben Morgan (Gloucester), Ben Youngs (Leicester), George Ford (Bath), Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

South Africa

15 Willie le Roux,
14 JP Pietersen,
13 Jan Serfontein,

12 Jean de Villiers,
11 Bryan Habana,
10 Pat Lambie,
9 Cobus Reinach,
8 Duane Vermeulen,
7 Schalk Burger,
6 Marcell Coetzee,
5 Victor Matfield,
4 Eben Etzebeth,
3 Jannie du Plessis,
2 Adriaan Strauss,
1 Tendai Mtawarira

Replacements:

16 Bismarck du Plessis,
17 Trevor Nyakane,
18 Coenie Oosthuizen,
19 Bakkies Botha,
20 Teboho “Oupa” Mohoje,
21 Francois Hougaard,
22 Handré Pollard,
23 Cornal Hendricks

England have gone without a win in their last eleven Tests against the Springboks. Their best recent result was a draw in Port Elizabeth in June 2012. The match on Saturday will be almost eight years exactly since England's last victory. England have lost their last four Twickenham encounters.

This is the third time Lancaster has taken England through a round of Autumn Internationals. In 2012, his team beat New Zealand. In 2013, it was Australia. He has never beaten South Africa; his record reads one home loss, two away losses and one away draw.

Tough one to call. Both teams will be smarting after losses. Should be a cracker. can see it coming down to kicks and if that is the case it will be an England win.

However, I wouldnt bet against a big performance from the Boks. England's defence in the backs isnt as good as Ireland so there will be trys.

I am sooooooooooooooo excited about this game. I simply can't wait.

NOT.

Biltong wrote:I am sooooooooooooooo excited about this game. I simply can't wait.

NOT.

Dont you think a year out from a WC in the NH a loss to Ireland is one of the best things that could happen to SA? SA won the WC in the NH right after the last time they got hammered by Ireland.

You can thank us later.

Not wishing to rain on any Irish fans parade after a well deserved win against the Boks. However, SA have a habit of playing poorly the week before the Twickenham game. A factor that Scotland benefited from in two out of 4 recent autumn encounters.
I expect the Boks will be much more committed and clinical than last weekend, but time will tell!!!

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:I am sooooooooooooooo excited about this game. I simply can't wait.

NOT.

Dont you think a year out from a WC in the NH a loss to Ireland is one of the best things that could happen to SA? SA won the WC in the NH right after the last time they got hammered by Ireland.

You can thank us later.

It could be, but then you are assuming we will learn from it. You need to understand South African rugby, our culture is one of straight up and down guys, no deceit, so when we meet a team (I can list you a number of matches) that decides to be smart or tricksters, we have no way of combatting that because we don't think that way, we expect teams not to come with tricks and therefor simply has no answer.

Take for example the line outs on the weekend, Schmidt and his team put a lot of thought into it.

We think, you throw the ball in, you win it, you maul or you clear it to the halfback.

Ireland thinks, OK we don't want them to maul, so we are going to exploit their maul by doing the following, we don't care if they think we are wimps, we won't engage their maul, instead we will send someone around the back to tackle the ball carrier, and immediately we are in complete freeze.

On your maul, you effectively split your maul in two, (which is in fact not all that legal as you are changing lanes) and send a player through the middle.

Ireland huddles in a group before the first line out, why, because they want the Boks to guess how many in the line out, it works, Boks one too many, and Ireland gets a free kick.

We just don't do those types of things, and get outsmarted all the time.

And, sadly, Ireland won't be the last team to outwit or outlast us.

sensisball wrote:Not wishing to rain on any Irish fans parade after a well deserved win against the Boks. However, SA have a habit of playing poorly the week before the Twickenham game. A factor that Scotland benefited from in two out of 4 recent autumn encounters.
I expect the Boks will be much more committed and clinical than last weekend, but time will tell!!!

That may have been a factor. For some reason SA, Aus and NZ tend to know very little outside of English rugby even in times when England arent that good.

Biltong wrote:

On your maul, you effectively split your maul in two, (which is in fact not all that legal as you are changing lanes) and send a player through the middle.

Thats only illegal if you can prove it was intentional.

We're ok at the moment Guns. Didn't watch the Ireland game so don't know if it was a freak result or what. Think the game needs to be targeted by England though, we haven't beaten SA in a while and we need a big performance after the majority of the 2nd half. pray it stays dry as well.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We're ok at the moment Guns. Didn't watch the Ireland game so don't know if it was a freak result or what. Think the game needs to be targeted by England though, we haven't beaten SA in a while and we need a big performance after the majority of the 2nd half. pray it stays dry as well.

No I think England are very good at the moment and was disapointed you lost v NZ. Cruden's try was not a try IMO, Owens got that wrong.

I had to leave to head to the SA match so didnt see the second half but I feel based on the first England had the goods to win. May's try was very nice. Dagg got burned.

Both England and SA are good enough to win so I think either team will be very disapointed with a loss. History says SA form probably marginally England.

Ref was strange for both sides and personally a narrow defeat was about right.

England don't look balanced for me. Farrell is struggling without a hard running 12/a viable kicking option.
For me Eastmond requires a very confident 10... which Farrell never has been. He's always needed a playmaking 15 or a playmaking 12 to work.

Also they looked like the missed someone other than Vunipola/Morgan to take it into contact hard and get the gainline smashed.

I seriously think if you're going to stick with Farrell at 10 then put Barritt next to him and bring in a proper 13 with gas.
If not I'd bring in Ford. I've not seen much of him but he looks a natural 10, a lot like JW/Carter etc. He can play with Eastmond, he can take the playmaking, kicking himself.

England lost primarily in the 2nd half when they began to run out of ideas how to get territory.. even when NZ were down to 14.

You could bring in Farrell at 12. Defensively I think this may be best as the boks will throw the kitchen sink at England. I don't think this is a long term issue but I do think that Farrell simply doesn't offer enough for me to warrant a place with the current players available to him.

The rumours here is that Lambie will start at 10. That Pollard and Hougaard combined do not have a sufficient kicking game together to play at Twickenham. Hougaard is probably lucky to keep his place but there are no other options to be honest. Reinarch is too similar to Hougaard.

This is a genuine problem for Meyer. The RWC will be this time next year. Hougaard finds it tough in these conditions. Du Preez and Pienaar will be the go to men I feel.

I'd love to see De Allende is some shape or form. Either at 13 or 14. the boks looked rather small in the  backs for the first time in memory and think they could do with some muscle.

I'd keep Bismarck, Strauss is too idiotic, he's always like this. Bismarck plays the margins though, yes he gives away penalties but that's what ruck operators do sometimes.
Matfield is a real concern. He's there to take lineout ball but otherwise that's it. THe rest of the game he's a complete liability. A lightweight now.

Perhaps a little unfair to get rid of Mahoje but I feel he's not offering enough. Schalk can't put 80 mins in. I think Whiteley could though albeit unlikely.

I'd like to get rid of Jannie too but there is no one else like Hougaard and Matfield in the squad.

Mtawarira
Bissie
Jannie
Eben
Matfield
Whiteley
Coetzee
Vermeulen
Hougaard
Lambie
Habana
De Villiers
De Allende
Pietersen
Le Roux

That would be my side to start vs. England anyhow.

fa0019 wrote:The rumours here is that Lambie will start at 10. That Pollard and Hougaard combined do not have a sufficient kicking game together to play at Twickenham. Hougaard is probably lucky to keep his place but there are no other options to be honest. Reinarch is too similar to Hougaard.

I would be surprised if Lambie isnt selected. Although Meyer wont want people to think Pollard is the fall guy for the Ireland defeat. Also I know he isnt seen as the messiah in SA but really think Piennar is SAs best scrum half by a distance. He is missed.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:The rumours here is that Lambie will start at 10. That Pollard and Hougaard combined do not have a sufficient kicking game together to play at Twickenham. Hougaard is probably lucky to keep his place but there are no other options to be honest. Reinarch is too similar to Hougaard.

I would be surprised if Lambie isnt selected. Although Meyer wont want people to think Pollard is the fall guy for the Ireland defeat. Also I know he isnt seen as the messiah in SA but really think Piennar is SAs best scrum half by a distance. He is missed.

Yeah Brendan Venter was saying that for all his faults Pienaar is ideally suited to playing NH rugby. Hougaard is a more open hard pitch versfeld player. The ball moves slower in the NH so you need more time, more options to kick. We all knew Hougaard shouldn't play 9 but Meyer has blou bloed.

What are his faults? Slow distributor?

Seems to be he has a better all round game than the others.

Going to be another cracker. Either side could easy win. Bounce of the ball following kicks, weather, and ref could all more than swing it either way.

However I am really looking forwards to the English pack taking on the SA forwards an big hits being out in all over the park by both sides.

The Irish are tricky. We aren't (usually). So it should be a big arm wrestle.

quinsforever wrote:Going to be another cracker. Either side could easy win. Bounce of the ball following kicks, weather, and ref could all more than swing it either way.

However I am really looking forwards to the English pack taking on the SA forwards an big hits being out in all over the park by both sides.

The Irish are tricky. We aren't (usually). So it should be a big arm wrestle.

Yeah I have a feeling it will be a belter. Game of the weekend for sure.

England should win this and win it well, they have a better pack than Ireland.
Close for 60 then England to run riot in the last 20.

No wum honest opinion England to win by two or more scores.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:England should win this and win it well, they have a better pack than Ireland.
Close for 60 then England to run riot in the last 20.

No wum honest opinion England to win by two or more scores.

Good luck with that.

You cant base your prediction on the Ireland game. There will be a SA backlash. Anyway England's pack isnt much better than Ireland's. The Twickers match last was fairly even Steven albeit England missing a few front rowers lost 4 scrums against the head to Irelands none. England also didnt steal one lineout against Ireland on that day. The ruck stats are fairly even.

If England are crafty which they probably wont be they will win. If it comes down to kicks they will also win I reckon.

Biltong wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:England should win this and win it well, they have a better pack than Ireland.
Close for 60 then England to run riot in the last 20.

No wum honest opinion England to win by two or more scores.

Good luck with that.

Just a welsh supporter trying to big us up, before mocking the "fall"

GunsGerms wrote:You cant base your prediction on the Ireland game. There will be a SA backlash. Anyway England's pack isnt much better than Ireland's. The Twickers match last was fairly even Steven albeit England missing a few front rowers lost 4 scrums against the head to Irelands none. England also didnt steal one lineout against Ireland on that day. The ruck stats are fairly even.

If England are crafty which they probably wont be they will win. If it comes down to kicks they will also win I reckon.

England are a good team, it should be close, but its hard to imagine the Boks making as many basic errors ball in hand and getting it so wrong psychologically again. They really were not in a good place mentally. When they shoved Ireland off their own ball, you could see they were emotional. It was a big release of frustration. But it didn't put points on the board.

LondonTiger wrote:

Biltong wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:England should win this and win it well, they have a better pack than Ireland.
Close for 60 then England to run riot in the last 20.

No wum honest opinion England to win by two or more scores.

Good luck with that.

Just a welsh supporter trying to big us up, before mocking the "fall"

Nope, genuine opinion.
Over the last couple of seasons England have had an edge over Ireland and seeing what Ireland did to the Boks i reckon England will thump them,
talk of a boks backlash! what about an England back lash? they can do it they have before.

Lancaster is ruling out major changes. saying this group deserves another go. He's looking at the Autumn Internationals as a piece, so it sounds like he'd rather try something else - if necessary - against Samoa, rather than switching horses for South Africa.

There's a whiff of the pre-planned about that. Not a terrible sin, because it helps protect against knee-jerk reactions, but it is characteristic of the way Lancaster likes to operate. You do wonder if leading with the heart rather than the head sometimes might stimulate his players.

I heard Brian Moore and Will Carling speaking on Talksport and they both hoped that the tone of conversations behind closed doors in the England camp were much more self-critical and dissatisfied with failure than we see in public.

Biltong wrote:I am sooooooooooooooo excited about this game. I simply can't wait.

NOT.

Horrible I know Biltong but with the World cup looming this are the time to have the losses. Said earlier if we lost to both SA and England this year we would have more to chew over than if we didn't.

This way the Boks have to keep asking the questions. They have to go back and have a good long look at themselves over the summer and really thrash out what they want from next year.

Not a lot of comfort but for both our world cup wins we lost to France, Oz x 2 the season before and had the Cavaliers debacle in 86 and in 2011 lost to both Oz and SA going into the tournament. 2011 was a little more 'planned' but we still lost.

Win the World cup and the Irish loss will fall into stats history (for SA fans at least).

I think England will beat the Bok's this weekend based on last weekends matches and I'm sure Meyer will revert back to type if only for this match as thats generally worked with England. But in the last year they've managed to move the ball a bit more themselves

I think the game will be as close (on the scoreboard) as the England/New Zealand one.  Which side comes out on top?  Couldn't seriously say.
SA will try to power-drive England off the field and start the job earlier than against Ireland.
England will try to power-speed SA off the field and I don't think Lancaster has 'coy' in him so I'd guess it would start from the very beginning too.

So I don't think there'll be too long of a phoney-war 'getting-to-know-you' period.  

I guess England will think they have superior fitness levels and therefore will try to run SA big guys into the ground and then circle what's left.
I guess SA will actually try to play a game more like Ireland and do their damage with least possession - hitting anything attacking with serious intent to make the attackers know the price of pace, especially if exposed and alone.
Should be an interesting day at the office for both sides.  I think it'll be a nail-biter down to the last 7 or 8 minutes. But a winner? Who the hell knows

I have no idea what to expect from the Boks, they can give you a performance like they did against NZ and OZ where they blitz 3 tries in 20 minutes, or they can give you an incompetent performance like last weekend, or Salta, or Perth, or Nelspruit, you just don't know

I guess England will think they have superior fitness levels and therefore will try to run SA big guys into the ground and then circle what's left.

Yeah, that hasn't worked this year. That has become a myth.

Biltong wrote:

I guess England will think they have superior fitness levels and therefore will try to run SA big guys into the ground and then circle what's left.

Yeah, that hasn't worked this year. That has become a myth.

Which hasn't worked?  England's 'superior fitness' or teams trying to run SA big guys into the ground?

Whichever it is - my idea of the game is based on what I think the teams will think/try to do - not what works.  
And like I said, I regard Lancaster highly but I believe he's a bit of a machine in terms of gameplans.  I didn't see the New Zealand game, so I'm basing my opinion on the games I've seen England play. Lancaster believes in certain things and doesn't drift too often from the blueprint of pace and energy and superior fitness used to break down resistance.  I'd say he'll have another stab at it against SA.  Not saying it'll suceed but saying I don't see a coy chess game of pauses and scrum resets designed to drag a game into attritional slogging.

Running us off our feet

yeah, its an urban myth.

gonna be the mother of all arm wrestles, with some tactical fluffery, and refereeing randomness, to decide the outcome.

Biltong wrote:Running us off our feet

Well like I said - not for a minute saying it'll happen but saying Lancaster seems to have a blueprint that he wants to take to the WC and from the games I've seen to date, doesn't appear to waver.  He's determined to make his high intensity game work.  It won't be slow and methodical - it'll be pacy.  And the design of that is to be pacy longer than the opponent and drag stamina out of opponents by playing so.
It's the design I'm talking about Bilt, not the conclusion.  We'll see how things go.

quinsforever wrote:yeah, its an urban myth.

gonna be the mother of all arm wrestles, with some tactical fluffery, and refereeing randomness, to decide the outcome.

I'm a neutral.  I can sit on the fence, quins.  You can't!  

Nevermind about randomness.  Who is going to win and why?

ahead of squad and starting selections FLY its a bit early to pick a winner. but i reckon england. assuming farrell actually has a good game kicking ball from hand. if he doesnt we lose its that simple.

reality is farrell and his dad both need to be fired otherwise we are toast come RWC

It will be interesting this week. Both England and South Africa lost their first game of the Ais, so for me it will come down to who wants it most.

With so many first choice players for England being injured/ not avalible will the players (English ) Players be able to step up for another top game.

Well we all know that (IF) England want to win or be in with a chance of winning the RWC, then they have to step up and play better this week than they did last week.

Well what did work against the English was the ball retention multi phase approach so whether the Boks have the kind of discipline (by that I mean not kick it away as well as not get flustered) while they're doing it. But the wet had a lot to do with the way the match went. I think the AB's would have had an increased margin had it been dry throughout. That's typically been the case in most of their matches- bar the Cruden less Ellis park effort.

And Farrell was looking very promising last 6N. I dont think, sadly, he has been on best form for a while, but at his best he is a very decent performer

The match against Ireland will probably benefit the Springboks in a few ways. They'll have a game in northern conditions under their belt. They have bitter defeat to atone for. And I think the speed the Irish rushed up on them in defence took them by surprise. The English are also really good at this, but the Boks will be more prepared. England are very strong though. And if the Boks put in another disappointing performance they'll get the same result.

Eastmond is sick, but not definitely out of contention for the weekend. Hartley is another undergoing concussion protocols. Rokoduguni (hip) and lock Dave Attwood (knee) picked up knocks which will be monitored ahead of selection. Telegraph also thinks Lancaster is considering a start for Ben Morgan.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11221997/England-hold-no-holds-barred-meeting-to-analyse-what-went-wrong-against-New-Zealand.html

Isn't Steve Walsh refereeing this one? If so, expect some even more bizarre decisions than Nige produced, and not in favour of the home side.

If the Boks work out that he can't tell the difference between binding on the body and binding on the arm, they can expect a steady stream of scrum penalties.

Bok camp is very quiet, we aren't getting any feedback from them or the coach, not even on SA media.

That can mean a lot of different things, I just hope Meyer does not over react and bring back Morne Steyn.

I think he is going to make a premature judgement on Hougaard and Reinach as he is already prejudiced against them in NH conditions.

I hope he sees Hougaard's performance for what it was, an inexperienced player playing his first match in Europe at halfback.

Didn't take long:

Telegraph wrote:The obvious options [if Eastmond is not fit] is to put George [Ford] at 10 and Owen at 12

and

Telegraph wrote:“That [Ford-Farrell] combination is something we have looked at, did look at and will look at in the future. "

quinsforever wrote:ahead of squad and starting selections FLY its a bit early to pick a winner. but i reckon england. assuming farrell actually has a good game kicking ball from hand. if he doesnt we lose its that simple.

Danny Care kicked twice as much as Farrell and just as poorly. Surely he deserves brickbats too?

Cumbrian wrote:Didn't take long:

Telegraph wrote:The obvious options [if Eastmond is not fit] is to put George [Ford] at 10 and Owen at 12

and

Telegraph wrote:“That [Ford-Farrell] combination is something we have looked at, did look at and will look at in the future. "

Woodward has called for Farrell at 12. Remembering his own experience with Wilkinson, he wants the fly half to have another licking option outside. His preference is for Cipriani to start, not Ford, though.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2827787/SIR-CLIVE-WOODWARD-England-Owen-Farrell-deliver-timely-kick.html

He also thinks Billy V should take a break - he says the Saracens man hasn't got the pace for the game we should be playing. He wants Armitage at openside, Robshaw on the other flank and Haskell at eight.

GunsGerms wrote:What are his faults? Slow distributor?

Seems to be he has a better all round game than the others.

Very slow distribution and perhaps the worst kicking 9 I know of. He's not a SH to be fair. He's a winger.

His kicks are non existent because they are so bad.... in this I were the England coach I would put as many men on the OH as possible so that Hougaard is forced himself to kick. NOt only is he slow but they are not of the best quality.

He is spritely I'll give him that, can see a gap better than Pienaar or Du Preez. But his fundamental skills do not match up to test requirements. He's a luxury player, one that requires a dominant pack to give him space and a OH comfortable with test rugby and ball to hand kicking.

He's the sort of player you have in your team/bench who can cover wing/SH. A bit like Austin Healey... although to be fair Austin had a very good kicking game.

Biltong wrote:Bok camp is very quiet, we aren't getting any feedback from them or the coach, not even on SA media.

That can mean a lot of different things, I just hope Meyer does not over react and bring back Morne Steyn.

I think he is going to make a premature judgement on Hougaard and Reinach as he is already prejudiced against them in NH conditions.

I hope he sees Hougaard's performance for what it was, an inexperienced player playing his first match in Europe at halfback.

Are you sure about that?

I recall him playing in the 2009 tour and beyond at SH.

From ESPN he played SH vs.

Italy in 2009 away,
Wales at 2010 away,
Scotland at 2010 away (remember that game BB???)
He also played vs. Saracens remember in 2009.... got hammered too, a couple of box kick charge downs and got smashed... by the liefling van loftus!!!!!

He knows the score, Meyer knows the score, we know the score. How many times should the bok management give him to realise he's not a SH.

Meyer chooses him because he has blou bleod. Its that simple.

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:Bok camp is very quiet, we aren't getting any feedback from them or the coach, not even on SA media.

That can mean a lot of different things, I just hope Meyer does not over react and bring back Morne Steyn.

I think he is going to make a premature judgement on Hougaard and Reinach as he is already prejudiced against them in NH conditions.

I hope he sees Hougaard's performance for what it was, an inexperienced player playing his first match in Europe at halfback.

Are you sure about that?

I recall him playing in the 2009 tour and beyond at SH.

From ESPN he played SH vs.

Italy in 2009 away,
Wales at 2010 away,
Scotland at 2010 away (remember that game BB???)
He also played vs. Saracens remember in 2009.... got hammered too, a couple of box kick charge downs and got smashed... by the liefling van loftus!!!!!

He knows the score, Meyer knows the score, we know the score. How many times should the bok management give him to realise he's not a SH.

Meyer chooses him because he has blou bleod. Its that simple.

That's four years ago FA.

Care had a shocker yes. But he's generally been playing well this season. And he does not have a protected place in the England squad at all.

Farrell has not played well since before the AP playoffs. Bomber picks form players in every other position, except 10. Farrell needs to be dropped because he is not playing well.

LT do you think Farrell is playing well enough to have earned the shirt?

Biltong wrote:I have no idea what to expect from the Boks, they can give you a performance like they did against NZ and OZ where they blitz 3 tries in 20 minutes, or they can give you an incompetent performance like last weekend, or Salta, or Perth, or Nelspruit, you just don't know

The OZ match at Newlands was simply because they brought on Bakkies, Bissie & Schalk in the last 25 and AUS ran out of steam. I don't think SA can do this to England in different conditions. Play Bissie off the bench and I can guarantee you, England will win at a canter. He is that important with Louw injured.

It will be more like the Ireland match but I think the England pack is probably stronger. SA need to take everything they get, every penalty in their half needs to be attempted at goal.

It reminds me of 2010 when Scotland surprisingly beat a SA 1.5 XV. The next week they played a full strength team vs. ENG and smashed them to pieces. However its a little different. Their are no more players to bring in, none that are better at least. They can change the side a little but I think the players they have do not suit the conditions... chaps like Hougaard, Pollard (he's played SA grounds only, he needs time to adj.) and Mahoje. Schalk is no longer a 80 min man so I think Whiteley should be given a run.

Matfield and Jannie look serious weaknesses in the side but their are simply not enough players to bring in and replace them.

England aren't fortunate to have their first XV so that helps and I think they themselves need to make changes to their midfield and OH combination to win.