Jeremy Guscott's home nations and Rugby Championship XVs

Well do we agree with his picks ?

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/30269070

There are some suspect one's in there for me, I would have had Webb over Murray, but that could just be my Welshness, and I would have picked Warburton at 7.

I would have Beauden Barritt at fullback, he was devastating when he moved there vs us.

I'd have Warburton over Robshaw as well.

Hard to argue the other ones, except maybe Webb and Murray, but their on a similar level. I dont think Alun Wyn Jones has done enough for me this autumn. Guscott also seemed to forget how much ball Roberts has spilled in contact.

IM,

I am with you on AWJ he has been outshone by Ball for us this series. Roberts was on top form against the ABs but nothing special in the rest and I do think Warburton has been great.

Just glad he didn't pick St George.

No way I would have had Attwood in there. Massively underpowered for his bulk. His carrying states made to look good for his balls up of an overlap, so he just ran diagonally, and one break through the middle against South Africa or New Zealand. Ok backup but if he was the best/second best lock in the NH we're all buggered.

HammerofThunor wrote:No way I would have had Attwood in there. Massively underpowered for his bulk. His carrying states made to look good for his balls up of an overlap, so he just ran diagonally, and one break through the middle against South Africa or New Zealand.  Ok backup but if he was the best/second best lock in the NH we're all buggered.

Maybe that is true, but I get the feeling that had he not made the breaks in the first place he would have been held in higher regard. I know the margins in international rugby are small but we do put a huge amount of emphasis on individual errors, especially obvious ones, and tend to ignore all the other good work over 79 minutes and 55 seconds, because its not so obvious.

But I'm saying I haven't seen any good work, over Kruis for example. Ok in a pinch, good backup, but that's it.

HammerofThunor wrote:But I'm saying I haven't seen any good work, over Kruis for example. Ok in a pinch, good backup, but that's it.

Not arguing with your assessment, just with the generic ' he made a mistake therefore he is useless' arguments.

Given recent form I would have gone with
1-15: Sam Burgess

I'd only have swapped Robshaw for Warburton. Don't exactly see what Robshaw has done tbh. Biggar could have almost nicked it at fly-half, but Ireland have the best 9/10 combo without a doubt. May looks like a terrible winger with a lot of pace, don't see why he is in there at all. Surprised at the impressive stats of Ross Ford!

Lists are always personal taste, so be it.

But anyone looking at the AIs would pinpoint POC as a big omission. You don't omit him just to do a politically correct trawl of all four Nations.

Would you have him in place of Attwood or AWJ? Or have a different lock combo altogether?

POC was by far the best performing forward for Ireland. Murray was probably our highest performing back. I'd have both of them in a best of AI fifteen (be it NH only or overall!). The rest of the Irish players have plenty to improve on.

The Saint wrote:Would you have him in place of Attwood or AWJ? Or have a different lock combo altogether?

I'd have him where he plays. 5.

He ain't the future and he's getting close to being the past but this AIs is this AIs.

Think i would have Courtney Laws for Dave Attwood.

Not sure i would have Ross Ford in the squad either.

When you think about it, there wasn't really a better hooker than Ford. Hibbard was in and out of our squad, Best seemed a bit hit and miss, England's hooker was too English to be considered.

The Saint wrote:When you think about it, there wasn't really a better hooker than Ford. Hibbard was in and out of our squad, Best seemed a bit hit and miss, England's hooker was too English to be considered.

Nobody enjoys criticising Ford more than me, but he has to be the most improved player amongst the home nations this year (edging Samson Lee).

lostinwales wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:But I'm saying I haven't seen any good work, over Kruis for example. Ok in a pinch, good backup, but that's it.

Not arguing with your assessment, just with the generic ' he made a mistake therefore he is useless' arguments.

I don't think I said that. I made reference to his man sausage up of the over-lap to explain why his distance per carry was high. It was due to two longish carries rather than make significant ground with each, if you follow me. Making a balls up of an overlap isn't a reason to drop a lock. His lack of physicallity given his size is (IMO) when the other fit guys come back. As I said he was ok, just not a starter at the minute unless there are injuries.

Even as an Irishman, I was a bit surprised at the lack of English in the front 5, they are far and away the best pack in the NH.

As for 13, I thought JD2 was the best in the NH during the AI's.

Not sure about May either as I think Liam Williams (who covers FB) and Zebo were also much better than him.

Feel Sorry for Robshaw, he gets a lot of stick but he really is an excellent player. That said, I do feel that Warburton slightly outshone him these AI's. Not by much mind.

I do have to laugh at the constant dismissive comments about Robshaw from all non English fans.

Not sure what the guy has to do really.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I do have to laugh at the constant dismissive comments about Robshaw from all non English fans.

Not sure what the guy has to do really.

Exaggeration is a fine art in debate

Comments are all from non-English fans aren't they? No exaggeration there. You just read it how you like.

EDIT: Although from memory GeordieFalcon is one of our biggest callers for the traditional roles (which means Robshaw ain't a 7)

Nachos Jones wrote:Even as an Irishman, I was a bit surprised at the lack of English in the front 5, they are far and away the best pack in the NH.

As for 13, I thought JD2 was the best in the NH during the AI's.

Not sure about May either as I think Liam Williams (who covers FB) and Zebo were also much better than him.

Feel Sorry for Robshaw, he gets a lot of stick but he really is an excellent player. That said, I do feel that Warburton slightly outshone him these AI's. Not by much mind.

Ah just wait until Lancaster brings back Tom Youngs! Rowntree's favourite!

If he gets anywhere near the England squad for the RWC England are in deep trouble.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I do have to laugh at the constant dismissive comments about Robshaw from all non English fans.

Not sure what the guy has to do really.

I do not think Robshaw is rubbish, I just think that Warburton is a better 7, and he was the better 7 this Autumn as well.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I do have to laugh at the constant dismissive comments about Robshaw from all non English fans.

Not sure what the guy has to do really.

GF,

I think he is a really top notch player but in all honesty I think there is as much dismissive comments about Warburton as there is about Robshaw. The battle in the first match will be a great match up and don't think there much between them.

That first match is becoming a Pre-Classic Classic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Careful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You know what happens sometimes when a Pre-Classic Classic actually happens???

GeordieFalcon wrote:I do have to laugh at the constant dismissive comments about Robshaw from all non English fans.

Not sure what the guy has to do really.

The problem is I think some of the criticism is warranted given he is in the 7 jersey, but not to him, to Lancaster himself.

He plays like a 6 and in that respect is for me... the best in the NH. His tackle count is huge, his ball handling is almost as reliable as a 12, he slows down a great deal of ball. The perfect defender in many respects and offers a decent link in attack too. The problem is that England like their 6's (just like SA) to be lineout options, Wood, Croft, Corry, Rodber etc and he lacks a bit of height to do this, and also carries a bit of bulk also for that.

But he isn't an openside in the traditional sense and England's backrow is slightly out of balance which I think goes against him. I still think that with Launchbury & Cole back (two excellent ruck operators) they can afford to drop Wood and bring in Haskell who brings a lot of ball carrying, and pace into the pack. Launchbury can take over Woods lineout options.

Packs are units. Its just that in the traditional sense the 7 has a specific role yet for England and for a long time they've not had a first choice traditional openside.

HammerofThunor wrote:Comments are all from non-English fans aren't they? No exaggeration there. You just read it how you like.

EDIT: Although from memory GeordieFalcon is one of our biggest callers for the traditional roles (which means Robshaw ain't a 7)

Oh you are absolutely right i am...but Robshaw has no competition from another English 7...and whilst not strictly a 7 he still performs to a very high standard that other English 7's just cant match yet. Maybe Fraser which would result in a move to 6 for Robshaw.

Anyway...this isnt about England. And yes Warburton probably does get as much criticisim...a British thing being critical of players performing well.

.....Only when they're not performing well (reasons offered being that they have no excuses for playing badly as they've already shown they can play much better)

And there is all that time when Warburton is on the treatment table to talk up the best bits of the games he has played in, whereas Robshaw is consistantly good game after game after game

lostinwales wrote:And there is all that time when Warburton is on the treatment table to talk up the best bits of the games he has played in, whereas Robshaw is consistantly good game after game after game

That raised a smile, but it's a bit harsh on Warburton. I think he's a very good player and seems to be a very genuine and humble individual in interviews.

Poorfour wrote:

lostinwales wrote:And there is all that time when Warburton is on the treatment table to talk up the best bits of the games he has played in, whereas Robshaw is consistantly good game after game after game

That raised a smile, but it's a bit harsh on Warburton. I think he's a very good player and seems to be a very genuine and humble individual in interviews.

That'll be his English blood shining through. We're known for being humble.

Telegraph World 15

Anyone seen the Telegraph world 15? Any thoughts, I dont know where to start...

lostinwales wrote:And there is all that time when Warburton is on the treatment table to talk up the best bits of the games he has played in, whereas Robshaw is consistantly good game after game after game

Kicking injured players when they're down. Classy. Suppose it's okay in your eyes if he's Welsh though.

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:And there is all that time when Warburton is on the treatment table to talk up the best bits of the games he has played in, whereas Robshaw is consistantly good game after game after game

Kicking injured players when they're down. Classy. Suppose it's okay in your eyes if he's Welsh though.

Nope. And I dont understand why this is kicking an injured player while he is down. There is too much contested territory to ever get a clear consensus on who is the better of the two on the pitch. I just wanted to highlight one area where Robshaw's record is absolutely superior

 Just remind me where Warburton is going to spend this weekend's match?

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:And there is all that time when Warburton is on the treatment table to talk up the best bits of the games he has played in, whereas Robshaw is consistantly good game after game after game

Kicking injured players when they're down. Classy. Suppose it's okay in your eyes if he's Welsh though.

Nope. And I dont understand why this is kicking an injured player while he is down. There is too much contested territory to ever get a clear consensus on who is the better of the two on the pitch. I just wanted to highlight one area where Robshaw's record is absolutely superior

 Just remind me where Warburton is going to spend this weekend's match?

Can players actually help it if they get injured or am I missing something? Robshaw is crap BTW.

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:And there is all that time when Warburton is on the treatment table to talk up the best bits of the games he has played in, whereas Robshaw is consistantly good game after game after game

Kicking injured players when they're down. Classy. Suppose it's okay in your eyes if he's Welsh though.

Nope. And I dont understand why this is kicking an injured player while he is down. There is too much contested territory to ever get a clear consensus on who is the better of the two on the pitch. I just wanted to highlight one area where Robshaw's record is absolutely superior

 Just remind me where Warburton is going to spend this weekend's match?

Can players actually help it if they get injured or am I missing something? Robshaw is crap BTW.

Excellent comment....very factual and informative.

Well argumented again (and as usual) by The Saint....

How do I respond...well I wouldn't swap Warburton instead of Robshaw....

Is that about the right level.

I think they'd make a great 6/7 combo with a brute at 8....

I'd rather the Lions captain than a captain who doesn't know how many points a penalty kick is worth. Just saying.

Ok you would rather have your Welsh captain. I respect that. He's a quality player.

I on the other hand prefer Robshaw and wouldn't swap him for Warburton.

I hope you were just having a laugh when you said Robshaw was crap...as that just shows a lack of Knowledge and bitterness for a rival.

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:And there is all that time when Warburton is on the treatment table to talk up the best bits of the games he has played in, whereas Robshaw is consistantly good game after game after game

Kicking injured players when they're down. Classy. Suppose it's okay in your eyes if he's Welsh though.

Nope. And I dont understand why this is kicking an injured player while he is down. There is too much contested territory to ever get a clear consensus on who is the better of the two on the pitch. I just wanted to highlight one area where Robshaw's record is absolutely superior

 Just remind me where Warburton is going to spend this weekend's match?

Can players actually help it if they get injured or am I missing something? Robshaw is crap BTW.

Well some do seem to spend more time getting injured than others. Probably a combination of how hard they push themselves, how resiliant they are, and how they play. They can improve resiliance with better conditioning, they can also (so it seems) become more prone to injury if they bulk up too much. Luck plays a part of course but past a certain point and you have to ask how much luck has to do with it.

Warburton does seem to be very injury prone, so, unfortunately (and hopefully only currently) does Manu. Robshaw doesnt. You are of course entitled to your opinion of Robshaw and I disagree.

Comfort wrote:I think they'd make a great 6/7 combo with a brute at 8....

Comfort,

That would actually be a very good combo with a typical 8 like Morgan with them.

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

The Saint wrote:

lostinwales wrote:And there is all that time when Warburton is on the treatment table to talk up the best bits of the games he has played in, whereas Robshaw is consistantly good game after game after game

Kicking injured players when they're down. Classy. Suppose it's okay in your eyes if he's Welsh though.

Nope. And I dont understand why this is kicking an injured player while he is down. There is too much contested territory to ever get a clear consensus on who is the better of the two on the pitch. I just wanted to highlight one area where Robshaw's record is absolutely superior

 Just remind me where Warburton is going to spend this weekend's match?

Can players actually help it if they get injured or am I missing something? Robshaw is crap BTW.

Well some do seem to spend more time getting injured than others. Probably a combination of how hard they push themselves, how resiliant they are, and how they play. They can improve resiliance with better conditioning, they can also (so it seems) become more prone to injury if they bulk up too much. Luck plays a part of course but past a certain point and you have to ask how much luck has to do with it.

Warburton does seem to be very injury prone, so, unfortunately (and hopefully only currently) does Manu. Robshaw doesnt. You are of course entitled to your opinion of Robshaw and I disagree.

But because one doesn't get injured, he's superior?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ok you would rather have your Welsh captain. I respect that. He's a quality player.

I on the other hand prefer Robshaw and wouldn't swap him for Warburton.

I hope you were just having a laugh when you said Robshaw was crap...as that just shows a lack of Knowledge and bitterness for a rival.

LIONS AND WALES captain, just to clear that up.

Yeah I was joking, he's a good player. But he is potentially the reason for an unbalance in the England back-row (or not). Perhaps he's a better 6, and that also gives you another good fetcher on the field assuming you pick the 'real 7' on the opposite side. Armitage should be 7, have a bruiser like Morgan/Haskell/Vunipola at 8.

Here's another:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11368554

Irish folk won't like the Sexton comments but until he has a good one versus the AB's he's going to take a back seat- nothing like a challenge though...will probably pick the world cup final or something like that to knock us out

Interesting how Coles was largely rubbished when he started...sure gets around the field.

Taylorman wrote:Here's another:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11368554

Irish folk won't like the Sexton comments but until he has a good one versus the AB's he's going to take a back seat- nothing like a challenge though..

Two Argentines, a Scotsman, an Englishman and an Welshman The makings of a good joke. We're usually in there somewhere on such jokes. I'm glad we missed the boat this time.

I think the New Zealanders must think we Irish write the English newspapers!!!!

A pointed shot across our bow for thinking too much of ourselves? - we ain't doing the write ups Gregor.

Not one Irish guy from even the 2013 game made the New Zealander's even think 'maybe him'?  And nothing they did this AI worked either?

Oh well, we'll have to keep trying to impress.

Isn't Paul Gregor scottish?

But I guess it shows how great the Irish are as a team since they beat Australia and battered South Africa without any stand out players.

SecretFly wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Here's another:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11368554

Irish folk won't like the Sexton comments but until he has a good one versus the AB's he's going to take a back seat- nothing like a challenge though..

Two Argentines, a Scotsman, an Englishman and an Welshman  The makings of a good joke.  We're usually in there somewhere on such jokes.  I'm glad we missed the boat this time.

I think the New Zealanders must think we Irish write the English newspapers!!!!

A pointed shot across our bow for thinking too much of ourselves? - we ain't doing the write ups Gregor.

Not one Irish guy from even the 2013 game made the New Zealander's even think 'maybe him'?  And nothing they did this AI worked either?

Oh well, we'll have to keep trying to impress.  

Don't worry fly...the one person that will be taking notice goes by the name of Hansen (he used last years match to ensure it didn't repeat with Wales by having the side as fresh as possible) so as long as that's taken care of these turkey's can fill their boots with what ever names they want to...they're tasked with irritating people, not bringing home the bacon!...so you don't get off that lightly...the right people have the 'right' lists...

lostinwales wrote:
 Just remind me where Warburton is going to spend this weekend's match?

Such a big game too. I can understand resting him this weekend and next, seeing as league points are way more beneficial instead of the Challenge Cup

HammerofThunor wrote:Isn't Paul Gregor scottish?

But I guess it shows how great the Irish are as a team since they beat Australia and battered South Africa without any stand out players.

He's Scottish in the sense that his dad is. Not sure that has anything to do with it.

Hilarious comment about Sexton:

Sexton has all the skills, but no bottle when it counts.

3 Heineken Cup winners medal and anchored an Irish grand slam and a successful Lions tour.
I think he's made his point pretty well.

George Carlin wrote:He's Scottish in the sense that his dad is. Not sure that has anything to do with it

I thought he was Scottish Scottish (usually when a kiwi paper runs a cowpat article, the response he's English or Scottish or Welsh)