Preparation Thread - England v Italy

by HammerofThunor Sat 07 Feb 2015, 12:11 pm

So the first game is done, time to move on. Anyone know which players are back from injury? Personally I'd rather they went to their club for recovery if they've been out for a while. What squad to pick for Italy? Keep the same one for consistency or 'experiment'?

Personally I want to keep the back line as stable as possible. Forwards, keep the backrow the same, keep the locks. Maybe change things up in the front row.

by **Ozzy3213** Sat 07 Feb 2015, 12:20 pm

The only change I'd make for next week would be if Lawes is fit, I would have him replace Kruis, with Easter or Croft dropping out of the 23 altogether. I may also have Care on the bench over Wigglesworth.

by BamBam Sat 07 Feb 2015, 12:23 pm

I'd probably stick Lawes on the bench if he is fit, Kruis put in a good performance and Lawes would have a point to prove whenever he came on, get him raring to go for the Ireland game.

Wouldn't be opposed to sticking with the same, and letting Lawes get a full 80 in a club game before he comes back in for Ireland either

by **Ozzy3213** Sat 07 Feb 2015, 12:25 pm

The backline absolutely has to remain the same. It was the best 40 minutes rugby from an England backline since we beat the All Blacks a couple of years ago, possibly even better. Given that it was their first time together as a unit (albeit 3 are from 1 club), it's not unreasonable to think they they have a few gears to go through before being completely in sync. Only time on the pitch together will get them there.

by The Saint Sat 07 Feb 2015, 12:55 pm

Call up Armitage and put him at 8 - that would be a good back row. Drop May, he's the next Chris Ashton, bring in Wade. I'd also consider having a different hooker on the bench, or one less similar to the one starting. All of this is genuine based on what I've seen.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 07 Feb 2015, 1:09 pm

How do you feel May reminds you of Ashton? And are you saying Youngs and Hartley are too similar?

by Geordie Sat 07 Feb 2015, 1:13 pm

How on earth is may like Ashton?
That's got to be a wum

by Pot Hale Sat 07 Feb 2015, 1:44 pm

Mike Brown should be playing in the all the games. He was superb last night and is already one of the form players of the Championship in my view. Great catcher, fielder and kicker. And he knows how to attack too.

by HammerofThunor Sat 07 Feb 2015, 1:47 pm

Issue with Brown is he's established but we don't have any experienced players for backup. Potentially Watson could move across.

by Pot Hale Sat 07 Feb 2015, 1:58 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Issue with Brown is he's established but we don't have any experienced players for backup. Potentially Watson could move across.

Forgot Foden was out injured - like him too.

by 123456789 Sat 07 Feb 2015, 2:07 pm

Do you guys view the Italy game as a serious threat or just a guaranteed win?

by Geordie Sat 07 Feb 2015, 2:11 pm

You have to take Italy serious. If you don't it'll come back and bite you on the a$$.

As for Watson...post WC do you think he will shift across to 15 and take Browns spot...he looks to be potentially the complete package...all the skills.

by HammerofThunor Sat 07 Feb 2015, 2:12 pm

No win is guaranteed. If we go with our full teams I would expect us to win. Just as I expected us to lose against Wales. Purely on paper and if things go wrong (or right) then things change.

I wouldn't change too much. Just in the areas we're weak but with an established player.

by Chjw131 Sat 07 Feb 2015, 2:15 pm

Lawes won't be back until March so he's out. I can't say i'd change anything for the Italy game, I think it has to be a case of consistency being the most important requirement for this year. I liked the way they played and 36 came on and made an impact!

Perhaps DC to come on for some game time in the Italy game. We all remember what happened last time Italy came to HQ though? It was one of the most dire games i've seen in a long long while. One we very nearly lost. Cracker last year though.

by doctor_grey Sat 07 Feb 2015, 2:17 pm

As I said on the other (now locked?!) thread, I wouldn't get too excited about one match. Yes, England improved as the match went along. And yes, England should have scored at least one more try in the second half, Haskell head-butting the goal post as the likely additional try. But, I felt Wales were not exactly hitting for 6 in the match, if you will pardon the expression. So, let's be cautiously optimistic.

In that regard, I do agree England should keep the same back line. If for no other reason than to see if they can hit a nice stride together or if this was more of a one off. They started to look better as the match went on, but I didn't think they looked like world beaters. Brown was very good, Watson, Joseph, Youngs were pretty good, Burrell and Ford were OK. I remember seeing May once or twice, running sideways, if I recall.

I would also keep the same starting forward pack, but we need to get Lawes back in the mix, carefully and slowly. Cole went well, but he also needs to be treated carefully. I am not sure whether I would start him or have him on the bench for a 20 minute run. The latter is probably smarter.

For the reserves, England need to see if Croft can still manage it at this level. If he can, he can be a difference maker. Frankly, I still have no confidence in Cipriani, and the more recent Twelvetrees performances are still fresh in my mind. Not sure the alternatives at this point. But if England get up quickly on Italy, this is the only chance to see what these guys can contribute.

by Chjw131 Sat 07 Feb 2015, 2:53 pm

I've read a couple of posters bemoaning Ford and I have to say I just don't get it. There are some who just demand the impossible from players, at times. I thought he was excellent last night, I wouldn't have put him as MOM but at 21, with just four caps I thought he played brilliantly. Yes he missed two kicks, one of which should've been put to the corner in my view but he played with a variety I haven't seen from an England FH for eons.

In the pack I thought Haskell went very well and adds another carrying dimension over Tom Wood. Lawes and Launchbury are still the first choice locks in my mind but Attwood performed well and Kruis made some good contributions.

by The Saint Sat 07 Feb 2015, 3:22 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:How do you feel May reminds you of Ashton? And are you saying Youngs and Hartley are too similar?

Looks amazing at first until teams figure him out, but still a very reliable club player with a good record. I think May looks quite erratic and believe he is certainly overrated by England fans (a bit like Ashton was). I do believe Hartley and Youngs are a bit similar, neither are great throwers but both good everywhere else. Why not start one with Webber on the bench?

Geordie, you're showing your Englishness again. Someone doesn't rate your players as one of the best to grace the game so they've got to be on a wind up eh!

by lostinwales Sat 07 Feb 2015, 3:27 pm

The Saint wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:How do you feel May reminds you of Ashton? And are you saying Youngs and Hartley are too similar?

Looks amazing at first until teams figure him out, but still a very reliable club player with a good record. I think May looks quite erratic and believe he is certainly overrated by England fans (a bit like Ashton was). I do believe Hartley and Youngs are a bit similar, neither are great throwers but both good everywhere else. Why not start one with Webber on the bench?

Geordie, you're showing your Englishness again. Someone doesn't rate your players as one of the best to grace the game so they've got to be on a wind up eh!

Sorry but

Youngs hasnt got a great record here in internationals, (!) but is one of the best in the AP. Last year the English team had the best lineout in the 6N and that was all the hated Hartley.

by The Saint Sat 07 Feb 2015, 3:36 pm

lostinwales wrote:
The Saint wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:How do you feel May reminds you of Ashton? And are you saying Youngs and Hartley are too similar?

Looks amazing at first until teams figure him out, but still a very reliable club player with a good record. I think May looks quite erratic and believe he is certainly overrated by England fans (a bit like Ashton was). I do believe Hartley and Youngs are a bit similar, neither are great throwers but both good everywhere else. Why not start one with Webber on the bench?

Geordie, you're showing your Englishness again. Someone doesn't rate your players as one of the best to grace the game so they've got to be on a wind up eh!

Sorry but

Youngs hasnt got a great record here in internationals, (!) but is one of the best in the AP. Last year the English team had the best lineout in the 6N and that was all the hated Hartley.

Fair, I didn't know the stats and don't watch him often. A lot of comments on here tend to say he is a poor thrower. Hartley wasn't great at throwing last night - again the general opinion on here seems to be he isn't a great thrower. I think Hartley is definitely the best in his position in England though.

by Geordie Sat 07 Feb 2015, 3:40 pm

The Saint wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:How do you feel May reminds you of Ashton? And are you saying Youngs and Hartley are too similar?

Looks amazing at first until teams figure him out, but still a very reliable club player with a good record. I think May looks quite erratic and believe he is certainly overrated by England fans (a bit like Ashton was). I do believe Hartley and Youngs are a bit similar, neither are great throwers but both good everywhere else. Why not start one with Webber on the bench?

Geordie, you're showing your Englishness again. Someone doesn't rate your players as one of the best to grace the game so they've got to be on a wind up eh!

Oh Saint...I think most of the other English posters on here will vouch that im nothing like that and I make my own opinions of players.

May is nothing like Ashton in that he actually has a very strong defensive game...which bar one positioning error he showed again last night.

We have had winger issues for a long time...and finally it looks like we may have two wingers who have strong all round games.

Im certainly not getting over optimistic...that's not my nature, but its encouraging.

PS...Did you really say Hartley wasn't a good lineout thrower......oh dear...

by The Saint Sat 07 Feb 2015, 3:47 pm

No. I said he wasn't great. So maybe he is good, just not great, and not bad.... You English should learn to read your own language.

PS; that hasn't been May's first weak defensive game.

by Sgt_Pooly Sat 07 Feb 2015, 3:47 pm

Hartley is usually an excellent thrower Saint, I don't think he missed one all AI, he's a top basics hooker but lacks brains in the loose.

I agree on your May point though, he's very crabby and offered very little last night bar giving Wales 8 points in the first 8mins. I'd like to see Wade given a shot as he could be a game changer.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 07 Feb 2015, 3:48 pm

Saint you re entitled to your opinion but think they re a bit off. May started off pretty slowly but shown some very good aspects. Hartley is excellent in the set piece and Ive not seen much if any criticism of his throwing. Indeed before we were down to the 2nd and 3rd choice jumpers yesterday he had the best international record as pointed out in commentary. Youngs is avery different style coming more to the fore in the loose. He s got an under rated set piece and isn t the disaster some make out.

by lostinwales Sat 07 Feb 2015, 4:18 pm

Hartley - criticisms usually cover 2 things. The biggest is discipline and that has been done to death. The 2nd is that for a big guy his carrying game never seems to be quite what it should be.

As for his set piece game, he had a couple of poor throws last night but that is out of character. Generally speaking is one of the best if not the best in Europe at the hooker 'basics'

by Alex_Germany Sat 07 Feb 2015, 4:35 pm

The commentators on the TV were saying that statistically Hartley is the best throwing international in world rugby.

He missed the next throw!

by The Saint Sat 07 Feb 2015, 5:41 pm

Alex_Germany wrote:The commentators on the TV were saying that statistically Hartley is the best throwing international in world rugby.

He missed the next throw!

Surprising stat, but pretty damn good.

by HammerofThunor Sat 07 Feb 2015, 5:49 pm

Probably not surprising to England fans. Our lineout is pretty damn good usually and it's noticeable when Youngs comes on and misses a couple.

by quinsforever Sat 07 Feb 2015, 6:06 pm

123456789 wrote:Do you guys view the Italy game as a serious threat or just a guaranteed win?

for this England team its a guaranteed win. But after last year's points difference loss (playing scotland in a swamp didnt help), England will be very conscious of the need to score a lot of points in case it comes down to points difference again.

by Steve_rugby Sat 07 Feb 2015, 6:11 pm

England have never lost to Italy, unlike the other 6N sides.

by lostinwales Sat 07 Feb 2015, 6:45 pm

Steve_rugby wrote:England have never lost to Italy, unlike the other 6N sides.

To make sure we keep that stat up we have to take it seriously. I never get that 'play weaker team vs Italy' thing that comes up from time to time, because that way lies madness and huge embarassment. Italy do have good players. There are a fair few in the AP and French leagues playing well.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 07 Feb 2015, 6:50 pm

Added to that with the amount of changes already I d love to see the same 23 to build up some understandings barring the return of a lock, any lock to the bench. That said Id love to see Cips get on and Watson to full back for 20 min or so if we re going well.

by Lowlandbrit Sat 07 Feb 2015, 6:51 pm

Steve_rugby wrote:England have never lost to Italy, unlike the other 6N sides.

And Italy usually look like they expect that to continue. Only needs one upset to change things of course, but England always seem to have a relatively easy time compared to the other teams.

by cb Sat 07 Feb 2015, 7:42 pm

I thought the handling of the substitutions was rather poor last night. It seemed very pre-meditated rather than being intuitive or natural.

I would also prefer a proper lock replacement, so by all means keep Easter as the number 8/backrow replacement but perhaps have Kitchener on the bench as well.

by wrfc1980 Sat 07 Feb 2015, 8:23 pm

If Dave wson is available I'd be tempted to start him with Cole on the bench. Dont get me wrong, Cole had a excellent game yesterday but Wilson had a fantastic autumn and offers a little more in the loose in terms of his carrying

by wrfc1980 Sat 07 Feb 2015, 8:24 pm

Wilson

by jamesandimac Sat 07 Feb 2015, 9:23 pm

In the forwards I'd look to bring Wilson, Kitchener and Clarke onto the bench. If Webber was in the squad I would have him too over Youngs.

For the backs, if i'm honest I wasn't blown away with Burrell at 12. He didn't really put himself about and dominate the gainline as he was expected. I thought 36 went better when he came on. Would potentially look at starting him as the only change and bring Nowell onto the bench.

by lostinwales Sat 07 Feb 2015, 9:29 pm

jamesandimac wrote:In the forwards I'd look to bring Wilson, Kitchener and Clarke onto the bench. If Webber was in the squad I would have him too over Youngs.

For the backs, if i'm honest I wasn't blown away with Burrell at 12. He didn't really put himself about and dominate the gainline as he was expected. I thought 36 went better when he came on. Would potentially look at starting him as the only change and bring Nowell onto the bench.

Youngs made a dumb mistake picking up at the back of the ruck but his throwing in was very good. Webber's last outing was the Saxons....

Cole did very well, and was back to his old habits at the breakdown. Cole vs Wilson is a nice problem to have.

Burrell was fine. He was up against a very big welsh backline and did some good things. Not amazing, but the alternatives would probably not be able to do much better.

Would be good to see Kitchener at some point. Clark vs Croft is a difficult one. A manager's call. Croft's experience was always a big selling point for what could have been difficult times vs Wales

by thomh Sat 07 Feb 2015, 9:39 pm

Lancaster said that this was up with the highest points of his career, so purely from an emotional point of view I think he'll be reluctant to change the team at all. We might see a different use of the bench vs Italy though. Perhaps Care there instead of Wigglesworth, and bringing him and Cipriani on in the last 20 if we've managed to build a lead.

Croft needs gametime so won't have been done too many favours by sitting on the bench yesterday. Admittedly it was only the LV= Cup weekend anyway, but Lancaster may send him back to Leicester so he can play more in the Premiership next time.

by majesticimperialman Sat 07 Feb 2015, 9:46 pm

123456789 wrote:Do you guys view the Italy game as a serious threat or just a guaranteed win?

I don't think you can take the Italy game as a guarantee win. England i do believe have been the only team not too loose to Italy. But that does not mean that they should be taken lightly.

I think the Burrell and Joseph combo in the centre needs more game time together. Is Tom Wood going to be fit for the next game? if so who would you drop to accomadate him?

Big headache for Lancaster who does he bring in? and who does he leave out?

by HammerofThunor Sat 07 Feb 2015, 9:55 pm

Keep the same team. First choice players returning from injury get on the bench (if they fit)

by thomh Sat 07 Feb 2015, 9:59 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
123456789 wrote:Do you guys view the Italy game as a serious threat or just a guaranteed win?

I don't think you can take the Italy game as a guarantee win. England i do believe have been the only team not too loose to Italy. But that does not mean that they should be taken lightly.

I think the Burrell and Joseph combo in the centre needs more game time together. Is Tom Wood going to be fit for the next game? if so who would you drop to accomadate him?

Big headache for Lancaster who does he bring in? and who does he leave out?

No-one, and Lancaster wont. He's on record about how well he thought the back row did yesterday. All three will start next week.

by nathan Sat 07 Feb 2015, 10:07 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Probably not surprising to England fans. Our lineout is pretty damn good usually and it's noticeable when Youngs comes on and misses a couple.

But it doesn't seem to be noticeable when Hartley misses a few

by nathan Sat 07 Feb 2015, 10:10 pm

cb wrote:I thought the handling of the substitutions was rather poor last night. It seemed very pre-meditated rather than being intuitive or natural.

I would also prefer a proper lock replacement, so by all means keep Easter as the number 8/backrow replacement but perhaps have Kitchener on the bench as well.

I think the subs are a tactic of Lancaster to get as much experiance through the squad. If we can end up having the bench come on and lose nothing in level of player then that's got to be great.

by Poorfour Sat 07 Feb 2015, 10:41 pm

nathan wrote:
cb wrote:I thought the handling of the substitutions was rather poor last night. It seemed very pre-meditated rather than being intuitive or natural.

I would also prefer a proper lock replacement, so by all means keep Easter as the number 8/backrow replacement but perhaps have Kitchener on the bench as well.

I think the subs are a tactic of Lancaster to get as much experiance through the squad. If we can end up having the bench come on and lose nothing in level of player then that's got to be great.

I also think that he tries to bring players off before they start to tire to mnimise the risk of errors and injury. Which said, Marler is an 80 minute player and could probably have gone longer. But perhaps Mako had been training to lift for Youngs' throwa so he wanted to sub prop and hooker at one time.

by thomh Sat 07 Feb 2015, 10:49 pm

That's an interesting thought on the lineouts. I also thought that they basically took a calculated gamble. Our early scrum dominance was starting to fade anyway, so they rolled the dice with the impact of those two in the contact area.

They're both test Lions who've missed nearly a year of internationals as well, so Lancaster and Rowntree could also be keen to get them on the pitch early just for the sake of gametime.

by wrfc1980 Sun 08 Feb 2015, 6:41 am

This championship could still cone down to points difference. We need to look to smash Italy at home and pile on the points. Guys like cipriani, care etc could help do this from the bench after we have tied out the Italians defence

by **LondonTiger** Sun 08 Feb 2015, 9:26 am

I see little point in changing the starting XV.

Would make a few changes to the bench. If fit Wilson in for Brookes, a proper second row forward (though not Kitch please we need him) and Clark for Croft and Easter and Care (or Dickson or Simpson) for Wigglesworth.

Changes to forwards replacements to ensure we have proper cover and the best available players available. Wiggy out because it cannot be a co-incidence that the pace and intensity of our game dropped when he came on and against a tiring Italian team in the last quarter surely we will want to be increasing the tempo.

by BigTrevsbigmac Sun 08 Feb 2015, 9:41 am

Apparently Parling, Eastmond & Barritt are back training this week so will come into the equation I would think.

I would think Parling for Easter on the bench and I would bring in Simpson for Wigglesworth to.

by Hood83 Sun 08 Feb 2015, 10:21 am

I'd really like to see us concentrate on the breakdown. I felt Wales did a good job of turning us over and slowing our ball down by committing a lot of players. Italy are great spoilers, I'd rather it wasn't a stodge fest.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 08 Feb 2015, 10:23 am

They only turned us over when the runner (Hartley twice for sure) ran away from support. I felt we were excellent at clearing out Warburton.

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