Preparation Thread - England v Italy

[HammerofThunor]

First topic message reminder :

So the first game is done, time to move on. Anyone know which players are back from injury? Personally I'd rather they went to their club for recovery if they've been out for a while. What squad to pick for Italy? Keep the same one for consistency or 'experiment'?

Personally I want to keep the back line as stable as possible. Forwards, keep the backrow the same, keep the locks. Maybe change things up in the front row.

[Sgt_Pooly]

We cleared out pretty well for the most part but I was a little disappointed with our impact at the breakdown regarding turnovers. The French looked excellent in that are last night, I think we miss Launchbury.

[LondonTiger]

I felt we were a touch scared to give away penalties. From memory cole and 36 both secured a turnover.

[nathan]

Just seen the stats for Robshaw against Wales, 26 tackles. Blimey.

[yappysnap]

And none missed!

[yappysnap]

We cleared out pretty well for the most part but I was a little disappointed with our impact at the breakdown regarding turnovers. The French looked excellent in that are last night, I think we miss Launchbury.

I don't know the actual stats on turnovers but there were two main reasons for the lack of them to my mind a. England's gameplan has always been more to spoil and disrupt and trust to knock ons then make actual turnovers as this is safer and less likely to be penalised, just look at how many times our forwards got boots in to the ruck to kick the ball rather then try to get hands on; and b. The reffing at the breakdown was pretty difficult to understand tbh, which again meant point a. Was more practical.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Call up Armitage and put him at 8 - that would be a good back row. Drop May, he's the next Chris Ashton, bring in Wade. I'd also consider having a different hooker on the bench, or one less similar to the one starting. All of this is genuine based on what I've seen.

Yes Saint, but you don't want England to win.

[LondonTiger]

Just seen the stats for Robshaw against Wales, 26 tackles. Blimey.

I am inrigued as to just how many tackles the replacements made:

Youngs 9 (Hartley 6)
Mako 6 (Marler 5)
Brookes 5 (Cole 2)
Easter 3 (Kruis 10)
Wigglesworth 1 (Youngs 8)
36 3 (Burrell 4)

So three of the six made more tackles than the man they replaced, While in just 5 minutes 36 almost caught Burell. Is it a case of the fresher men taking over the key tackling duties?

[Hood83]

They only turned us over when the runner (Hartley twice for sure) ran away from support. I felt we were excellent at clearing out Warburton.

We conceded 14 turnovers, they weren't all from running away from support. Warburton didn't get much change but we were turned over more than they were.

[Hood83]

We also hit a number of rucks from the side that I think another ref would have penalised.

[jamesandimac]

36 looked like a man possessed when he came on. Although he's down as making 3 tackles he was involved in a number of gang/choke tackles as well, most notibly the last one which won the game. He also won the turnover for our last points and took the restart at the following kickoff.

Its a shame he tries to force things too much because if he just concentrated on playing for the team rather that do everything himself he would be exceptional.

[LondonTiger]

They only turned us over when the runner (Hartley twice for sure) ran away from support. I felt we were excellent at clearing out Warburton.

We conceded 14 turnovers, they weren't all from running away from support. Warburton didn't get much change but we were turned over more than they were.

i will maybe watch the match on TV - but did not feel like they won any where near that number of turnovers.


PS how do they define a turnover?

[thomh]

Any loss of possession in play I believe.

[Sgt_Pooly]

It's turning the ball over not just pilfers. I think it includes knock ons etc??

[LondonTiger]

Any loss of possession in play I believe.

So a knock on in the tackle collected by opposition counts?

[englandglory4ever]

Did anyone else think that Wales were being disrespectful to England. They appeared arrogant and cocksure of themselves. All that pre-match shenanigans. Warburton saying that the win was a must, etc. To top it all they walk out late like victorious gladiators as if they had already won the match. They need to think more about the game and less about displays of arrogance.

[Cowshot]

Did anyone else think that Wales were being disrespectful to England. They appeared arrogant and cocksure of themselves. All that pre-match shenanigans. Warburton saying that the win was a must, etc. To top it all they walk out late like victorious gladiators as if they had already won the match. They need to think more about the game and less about displays of arrogance.

Not disrespectful. Just trying mind games which certainly didn't work and possibly helped England. This is a big loss for Wales and what makes it bigger than just the usual 6Ns is the World Cup. Sure this result has little direct relevance come the Pools, but it does give England a good start to the building process where Wales have to start again.*

What for me was the best thing about the game was watching the England side start to gell, and then strangle the game. Would May have stepped in to help Ford (who is 5'9" ) if he'd had confidence Ford would make the tackle (which he did) when Faletau broke to set up the early try? Sign of a side that hasn't played together much.  From 10-0 down we clawed our way back into the game and in the second half, dominated (tm). Warburton gave the English team credit for playing well and so do I. What pleased me most was that it was intelligent rugby. With the exception of The Hask bouncing off the post...which made me laugh and didn't cost us so all's well.

*edit: And I do mean start again. They brought their A side and main game plan to that match and a raw England side completely nullified them after the first 10 minutes. They are just asking for trouble if they try that game plan again in the Pool match. And what else have they?

[Cumbrian]

I don't think the Welsh players themselves were too disrespectful, but some of the media hype coming over the dyke was a little irritating. Statements like 'only x number of English players would get in the Welsh squad etc.' It's all good though because I reckon it motivated a few English players and made a few 'experts' look a tad ridiculous.

[rosbif]

Hask will be OK for the next match they are fitting him with a GPS "turn right at the white post and place the ball on the ground"

[BigTrevsbigmac]

On a different note but great news

Steve Walsh was due to ref our last game against France at HQ but due to rescheduling he has been replaced by Nigel Owens.

[Mr Bounce]

Hask will be OK for the next match they are fitting him with a GPS "turn right at the white post and place the ball on the ground"

I have to say that with the exception of a proper lock (if Parling is fit of course) on the bench I am not expecting Lancaster to be changing anything. To start dropping people this early in the championship would be counterproductive and also disrespectful to the team that performed pretty well as a whole.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

On a different note but great news

Steve Walsh was due to ref our last game against France at HQ but due to rescheduling he has been replaced by Nigel Owens.

Definitely start Tom Youngs in that game, Owens still has it in for Hartley.

[formerly known as Sam]

Hask will be OK for the next match they are fitting him with a GPS "turn right at the white post and place the ball on the ground"

I have to say that with the exception of a proper lock (if Parling is fit of course) on the bench I am not expecting Lancaster to be changing anything. To start dropping people this early in the championship would be counterproductive and also disrespectful to the team that performed pretty well as a whole.

We had the chance if naming a proper lock on the bench vs Wales but decided to go with short on match fitness Croft over the in firm line out monster Kitchener. I'd like to use the Italy game to get Kitchener a cap. Even if it is off the bench.

[doctor_grey]

Hask will be OK for the next match they are fitting him with a GPS "turn right at the white post and place the ball on the ground"

To be fair, the goal post was the only thing to knock Haskell back in that game.

[doctor_grey]

Did anyone else think that Wales were being disrespectful to England. They appeared arrogant and cocksure of themselves. All that pre-match shenanigans. Warburton saying that the win was a must, etc. To top it all they walk out late like victorious gladiators as if they had already won the match. They need to think more about the game and less about displays of arrogance.

No, I didn't interpret any of that.  A little of the usual Gatland stuff plus some goofy marketing. But I would be surprised if the players had anything less than full respect for each other.  Many of the players involved play club Rugby with each other.  Hibbard plays with Ben Morgan, Billy Twelvetrees, and Johny May at Gloucester.  George North plays with Hartley, Lawes, Corbs, Burrell, Foden, Wood at Saints.  Paul James is exceeding the salary cap at Bath with Little George, Joseph, Watson, Wilson, and Attwood. It is becoming homogenized at club level and the players know each other better.

[bedfordwelsh]

Warburton saying the win was a must is disrespectful how? With us being notoriously slow starters, 3 away games and in the same WC group it was a must win game but we lost simple as and the pressure in now firmly on the whole squad.

As for Haskell he was for me the MoM, Billy V was quiet so is there chance maybe Easter could start for you guys or why change a winning side.

[lostinwales]

Hask will be OK for the next match they are fitting him with a GPS "turn right at the white post and place the ball on the ground"

To be fair, the goal post was the only thing to knock Haskell back in that game.

To be fair he was on the receiving end of at least a couple of very heavy tackles that I can remember. The really impressive thing was that he kept on trucking the ball up regardless. You could tell he loved every minute of it. He worked very hard that game, although as usual his work rate was made to look human because Robshaw was playing.

[lostinwales]

Warburton saying the win was a must is disrespectful how?  With us being notoriously slow starters, 3 away games and in the same WC group it was a must win game but we lost simple as and the pressure in now firmly on the whole squad.

As for Haskell he was for me the MoM, Billy V was quiet so is there chance maybe Easter could start for you guys or why change a winning side.

I doubt we will change. Billy did fine. He wasnt anything like as showy as Haskell or industrious as Robshaw but he carried a lot. What he did do was last the whole game, probably a first for England

[lostinwales]

Hask will be OK for the next match they are fitting him with a GPS "turn right at the white post and place the ball on the ground"

I have to say that with the exception of a proper lock (if Parling is fit of course) on the bench I am not expecting Lancaster to be changing anything. To start dropping people this early in the championship would be counterproductive and also disrespectful to the team that performed pretty well as a whole.

We had the chance if naming a proper lock on the bench vs Wales but decided to go with short on match fitness Croft over the in firm line out monster Kitchener. I'd like to use the Italy game to get Kitchener a cap. Even if it is off the bench.

It felt like Lancaster really wanted to have experience on the bench, not another debutant. I'd be willing to bet that Croft is one of those guys that wouldnt show too much rust despite his lack of game time.

[lostinwales]

36 looked like a man possessed when he came on.  Although he's down as making 3 tackles he was involved in a number of gang/choke tackles as well, most notibly the last one which won the game.  He also won the turnover for our last points and took the restart at the following kickoff.

Its a shame he tries to force things too much because if he just concentrated on playing for the team rather that do everything himself he would be exceptional.

A lot of the last 10-20 minutes was all about suffocating defense. Wales had the ball but couldn't do anything with it, but it did make for players making a lot of tackles.

[doctor_grey]

Hask will be OK for the next match they are fitting him with a GPS "turn right at the white post and place the ball on the ground"

To be fair, the goal post was the only thing to knock Haskell back in that game.

To be fair he was on the receiving end of at least a couple of very heavy tackles that I can remember. The really impressive thing was that he kept on trucking the ball up regardless. You could tell he loved every minute of it. He worked very hard that game, although as usual his work rate was made to look human because Robshaw was playing.

In a back handed and semi-joking kind of way, this is exactly the point I was trying to make. I agree completely about Haskell, he played terrific, tough powerful hits and kept going and going. He and Robshaw both played very well, but in very different roles. Robshaw was run at all night and made one million tackles. Didn't contribute much offensively, but couldn't because he was always getting up after making another tackle. Haskell had a more all around game, making his tackles, but was an offensive force. So many tough yards.

[formerly known as Sam]

When playing for Tigers of late he has tired quickly. Doubt he'd have been effective at that level of intensity for more than 20 minutes. I think he was more of an emergency patch for the lineout if it all went to hell in a hand cart. Maybe the Italy game will be different.

[yappysnap]

Any loss of possession in play I believe.

So a knock on in the tackle collected by opposition counts?

I think knock ons are counted as that is a turn over of possession, likewise when a player is tackled off the pitch, that's why Brown has 5 to his name (kicking out on the full would presumably count too).

[Poorfour]

Logically, any kick to the opposition is a loss of possession and should count as a turnover.

[SecretFly]

Preparation???

That's a larf!

I think England could take a week's cruise in the Carribean and still be ready to come on for the final 20 minutes to take the 180 point lead from Italy

[Poorfour]

Preparation???

That's a larf!

I think England could take a week's cruise in the Carribean and still be ready to come on for the final 20 minutes to take the 180 point lead from Italy

Is that how Ireland did it, then?

[George Carlin]

Can't understand why you would want to change a winning side, especially with Italy up next.
The honest truth is that the Saxons could put 21 points on them.

Bomber needs continuity above all else at the moment.

[Poorfour]

Can't understand why you would want to change a winning side, especially with Italy up next.
The honest truth is that the Saxons could put 21 points on them.

Bomber needs continuity above all else at the moment.

Continuity is good, injuries bad. I would hope to stick with the same xV but use the subs early. Which is in all probability what Lancaster will do

[Rugby Fan]

Lancaster has already said in an interview with Brian Moore on Talksport that he doesn't envisage needing to make many changes. It doesn't sound like anyone picked up any injuries.

He rejected the accusation that he had any preplanned substitutions. He said he changed the front row because he had two British Lions on the bench chomping at the bit, and thought their carrying game would be a useful boost. Ben Youngs apparently was starting to tighten up, so he regarded that as a no-brainer. Lancaster pointed out that he didn't even use Croft or Cipriani, so he had no preconceived idea of who would get on.

The conundrum for England now is how to include someone like Danny Care. If Care is to be a key part of our squad, when does he get tested again? Does he have to show good club form first, or does he get a chance in the Six Nations, at the expense of Wigglesworth, just to see whether he can put in a performance on a par with last year?

There does seem to be general content with the victory over the Welsh but we ought to be concerned about not getting more points. It's no disrespect to Wales to say we should have scored more. Our failure to take our chances hurt us in New Zealand, and could have cost us the match at the weekend. Hopefully, that's down to unfamiliar combinations but we do tend to show a lack of composure in scoring positions.

[LondonTiger]

When the pressure is on, when we get tight our skills falter and try scoring opportunities are butchered.

Like most NH teams I feel our basic skills are not high enough. Should be little pressure against Italy though and we may see a bucketload of points.

[Bathman_in_London]

No change to the team for me, potentially bring Lawes back onto the bench for Croft if he is fit but otherwise I think continuity is the most important thing.

While it was a great win against Wales there were a number of errors and I hope at training this week we are really ruthless about ironing those out.

[Jimpy]

Call up Armitage and put him at 8 - that would be a good back row. Drop May, he's the next Chris Ashton, bring in Wade. I'd also consider having a different hooker on the bench, or one less similar to the one starting. All of this is genuine based on what I've seen.

Yes Saint, but you don't want England to win.

I was going to say, but you beat me to it. Unfortunately, for Wales, England have already beaten them, and those selections would come too late to save Welsh pride.

There was a lot of pre-match vitriol directed at England by the usual suspects. The embarassment in loss appears to have manifested itself as the sort of nonsense we see quoted. At the end of the day, they can't take away the fact that under the circumstances that was a solid English performance. Personally, i got the feeling that although behind on the scoreboard at half-time, England were not panicking - because i think we all sensed that in that match, Wales had tried everything and had nothing left in the tactics locker. The second half performance seems to bare that theory out.

Little needs to change for the match against Italy. Whilst no slouches, Italy do not have what it takes to beat England at Twickenham. England need to field players returning from injury in a sensible and staged manner, the big picture is the WC. If England can go into that relatively injury free, they'll be very difficult to beat. Based on the weekend's performance, England have little to fear from an away match in Dublin. There's big respect for the Irish of course, and no doubt they'll raise their game against us, but by the time it happens, England will have momentum, they know how to win away in a hostile atmosphere, and some carefully considered team selection will see them over the winning line.

[lostinwales]

Call up Armitage and put him at 8 - that would be a good back row. Drop May, he's the next Chris Ashton, bring in Wade. I'd also consider having a different hooker on the bench, or one less similar to the one starting. All of this is genuine based on what I've seen.

Yes Saint, but you don't want England to win.

I was going to say, but you beat me to it. Unfortunately, for Wales, England have already beaten them, and those selections would come too late to save Welsh pride.

There was a lot of pre-match vitriol directed at England by the usual suspects. The embarassment in loss appears to have manifested itself as the sort of nonsense we see quoted. At the end of the day, they can't take away the fact that under the circumstances that was a solid English performance. Personally, i got the feeling that although behind on the scoreboard at half-time, England were not panicking - because i think we all sensed that in that match, Wales had tried everything and had nothing left in the tactics locker. The second half performance seems to bare that theory out.

Little needs to change for the match against Italy. Whilst no slouches, Italy do not have what it takes to beat England at Twickenham. England need to field players returning from injury in a sensible and staged manner, the big picture is the WC. If England can go into that relatively injury free, they'll be very difficult to beat. Based on the weekend's performance, England have little to fear from an away match in Dublin. There's big respect for the Irish of course, and no doubt they'll raise their game against us, but by the time it happens, England will have momentum, they know how to win away in a hostile atmosphere, and some carefully considered team selection will see them over the winning line.

To be honest the debate was much better and more controlled than it usually is. With a couple of exceptions. Rainbow warrior where art thou?

[LondonTiger]

To be honest the debate was much better and more controlled than it usually is. With a couple of exceptions. Rainbow warrior where art thou?

thankfully his posts remained unread by me, but I did see that he was riling people. Probably gone for a few months again.

[Geordie]

I think I would replace Easter with Kitchener though.

[LondonTiger]

I think I would replace Easter with Kitchener though.

It will be Parling on the bench - but perhaps for Croft.

[Geordie]

As a Tiger do you prefer Parling or Kitchener.

[LondonTiger]

As a Tiger do you prefer Parling or Kitchener.

For Friday I want Kitch when we face Glaws.

For a crunch match, say an AP semi at Franklin's Gardens then Parling. Kitch, for me, is so close to overtaking Parling - but in the tight games Parlings defensive duties win out. Of course Kitch is still improving and Parling probably on the way down - unless Chiefs revitalise him as they did thomas.

[SecretFly]

Preparation???

That's a larf!

I think England could take a week's cruise in the Carribean and still be ready to come on for the final 20 minutes to take the 180 point lead from Italy

Is that how Ireland did it, then?

Nope...but then we weren't nearly so slick as England on their first weekend. Form does what form does mostly. And if England don't score 7 or 8 tries, I'll be surprised.

[TrailApe]

And if England don't score 7 or 8 tries, I'll be surprised..

I dunno - there's been a few close calls in the past, I for one (and I bet Lancasters mob ain't) am not taking the Italians for granted, we should beat them, but you never know.

[mystiroakey]

The handicap will be at around 30 points. and I would back over.

SL isn't the type to take anything for granted though. But it would be a huge shock if we lost at home.

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