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Front Row Replacements

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Post by bedfordwelsh Sat 14 Feb 2015, 8:19 pm

Ok then, when a prop or hooker is binned I fully understand that at the next scrum they have to bring a front rower on for the scrum normally at the expense of a backrower. However we have on some occasions then seen the team down to 14 bring a centre in at backrow to bring the scrum back up to 8 and the backs down to 6 which is a calculated risk.

However why don't teams just take a back off and leave the actual backrower on, is this allowed? Should the offending team be allowed to bulk the pack back up to 8 etc etc.

Hope that makes sense
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Post by Lowlandbrit Sat 14 Feb 2015, 8:36 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:why don't teams just take a back off and leave the actual backrower on, is this allowed?
Pretty sure they can take off whoever they want, I'm guessing most teams just prefer to keep as much pace on the pitch as possible when down a man.

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Post by Guest Sat 14 Feb 2015, 8:50 pm

Also, if you take a player out of the backs then there is an instant gap in the defence. If you lose a flanker from the scrum, how much pushing do they really contribute to? I'd guess not a great deal. So you can afford to lose them from a scrummaging point of view to a certain extent. But take a centre out, for example, and all the opposition need to do is win the scrum and pass along the line with a guaranteed overlap!

When the back comes into the pack to make up 8 (which is rare) but I'd imagine it is to help stop the opposition getting a push over try or wheeling the scrum to open up a certain flank to attack on???

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Post by Gooseberry Sun 15 Feb 2015, 12:36 am

Griff during the scrum you have to have 8 players bound.
So if a forward is off then a back has to make up the numbers. Otherwise flankers full stop would not bind in the scrum.

The question here is if a player has to make way temporarily for a front row when one of their colleagues in carded does it have to be a forward? Must admit Id always thought it had to be but checking the laws it just makes reference to "another player in the playing area".

So in theory yes a back could go off for the temporary front row replacement to come on and the flanker stays on.



(n)

After a front row player leaves the field of play or is sent off, or during the time for which a front row player is temporarily suspended, the referee, upon awarding the next scrum, will ask the player’s captain whether or not the team has another player on the playing area who is suitably trained and experienced to play in the front row. If not, the captain chooses another player on the playing area who then must leave the playing area to be replaced by a suitably trained and experienced front row player from the team’s replacements. The captain may do this when the scrum is ordered or after another player has been tried in the front row.

(o)

When a period of temporary suspension ends and a front row player returns to the playing area, the replacement front row player leaves the field of play and the nominated player who left the playing area for the period of suspension may resume playing in the match.

(p)

If a front row player is temporarily suspended and the replacement player is sent off, the temporarily suspended front row player may return to the playing area after the period of suspension but the player who was nominated to leave the playing area must not return to the playing area for the duration of the match except as a substitute or replacement for another player.

(q)

If a front row player is temporarily replaced and the replacement player is sent off, the temporarily replaced player may return to the field of play at the time the next scrum is awarded after the sending off providing it is within 15 minutes (actual time) from the time the player left the playing area. The captain of that team chooses another player on the playing area who then must leave the playing area.

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Post by Guest Sun 15 Feb 2015, 7:54 am

Gooseberry, I've seen plenty of 7 man scrums. You can choose to have only 7 in there if you want and a full compliment on the backs. Or at least that's what I think I've been seeing! Maybe I'm wrong? Headscratch

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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 15 Feb 2015, 8:41 am

It all ways seems unfair to me if a prop or hooker gets a yellow card. Simply because when the next scrum happens they have to bring on a prop/hooker and some else as to go off.

Why can't they go with uncontested scrums? The reason being the is that A Other person who as done nothing wrong as to go off for the replacement prop/hooker.

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Post by Gooseberry Sun 15 Feb 2015, 8:55 am

Griff
Your right I was talking crud above there is an exemption for when teams are short of on field players. They can opt for a short handed scrum. What they cant do is reduce it by more than the number of off field players, and the opposition retain the choice of whether they go short handed or not. Brain fart.

Maj
They dont let a team force uncontested scrums through a player being off because this can reward the penalised team. or you get teams like Wasps whos entire front row and replacement bench comes down with injuries severe enough to keep them off the field but not the playoff final after party to enable them to have an extra flanker and avoid the scrums they were getting killed in. Theyve upped the benches to 23 to make sure theres always a specialist front row available. If teams are worried about being a pack member down they should probably avoid tripping opposition ball carriers. Or biting them. Or any of the million other nasty things front rows seem to like to do.

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Post by Guest Sun 15 Feb 2015, 9:20 am

Gooseberry wrote:Griff
Your right I was talking crud above there is an exemption for when teams are short of on field players. They can opt for a short handed scrum. What they cant do is reduce it by more than the number of off field players, and the opposition retain the choice of whether they go short handed or not. Brain fart.

Maj
They dont let a team force uncontested scrums through a player being off because this can reward the penalised team. or you get teams like Wasps whos entire front row and replacement bench comes down with injuries severe enough to keep them off the field but not the playoff final after party to enable them to have an extra flanker and avoid the scrums they were getting killed in. Theyve upped the benches to 23 to make sure theres always a specialist front row available. If teams are worried about being a pack member down they should probably avoid tripping opposition ball carriers. Or biting them. Or any of the million other nasty things front rows seem to like to do.

thumbsup

Cheers Goosberry! I have vague memories of teams down to 7 men in the scrum winning one against the head (against the odds). England v New Zealand in New Zealand was a good example - England were down to 7 or maybe even 6 and managed to ward off the All Blacks and stop them scoring a push over try. I think that lead to the famous Martin Johnson quote: "what was going through your mind when camped on your own line and reduced to 7/6 men?", "My spine!".

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Post by Gooseberry Sun 15 Feb 2015, 9:23 am

And Im sure with it being Johnson and chums they did it entirely within the laws of the game Whistle

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sun 15 Feb 2015, 11:00 am

You can put as many people in the scrum as you want as long as you have at least a front row, I think you can increase the numbers as well, there have been occasions recently, can't remember where were sides used and 11 man scrum. Got to be sure of winning the ball mind you,

Saints often take off a back, confident that their blitz defence will wrap up the ball on the first phase before any overlap can develop.
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Post by bedfordwelsh Sun 15 Feb 2015, 12:08 pm

Back to one of my original points then if one of the aims of the yellow card against a prop is to punish the side for indiscipline should they be made to play that scrum with just the 7 men.
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