Edinburgh V Ulster

           
Edinburgh V Ulster

Friday 20th February 2015
KO 19:35
BT Murrayfield
Live on BBC Sport Scotland & BBC Northern Ireland

Referee: Leighton Hodges (WRU, 48th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Sam Grove-White, Mike Adamson (both SRU)
Citing Commissioner: Paul Minto (SRU)
TMO: David Changleng (SRU)

24 Played 24
8 Wins 16
16 Losses 8
0 Draws 0
37 Tries 61
27 Conversions 40
47 Penalties 69
5 Drop Goals 3
395 Points 601
25 Avg. Age 26

Teams

Edinburgh

15 Jack Cuthbert
14 Dougie Fife
13 Sam Beard
12 Phil Burleigh
11 Tim Visser
10 Tom Heathcote
9 Grayson Hart

1 Rory Sutherland
2 Neil Cochrane
3 W P Nel
4 Anton Bresler
5 Ben Toolis
6 Roddy Grant
7 Hamish Watson
8 Mike Coman (captain)

16 Stuart McInally
17 Grant Shiells
18 John Andress
19 Ollie Atkins
20 Hugh Blake
21 A N Other
22 Jade Te Rure
23 Andries Strauss

Ulster

1. Callum Black
2. Rob Herring
3. Wiehahn Herbst
4. Franco van der Merwe
5. Iain Henderson
6. Roger Wilson (c)
7. Mike McComish
8. Nick Williams

9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Ian Humphreys
11. Michael Allen
12. Stuart McCloskey
13. Darren Cave
14. Craig Gilroy
15. Louis Ludik

16. John Andrew
17. Andrew Warwick
18. Bronson Ross
19. Lewis Stevenson
20. Clive Ross
21. Paul Marshall
22. Luke Marshall
23. Peter Nelson

I can't see there being many changes to the team from the Osprey's game. Dickinson and Ford will definitely be rested, Hidalgo-Clyne will probably have to be after his head knock and with Russell potentially banned I doubt Tonks will be released, which is a shame because he could probably do with some gametime.

I suspect Toolis will come back in, but not sure about Watson - with Grant playing so well and Solomons no doubt under instruction to keep playing Hugh Blake, there might not be room for him.

Again though he could do with some gametime too!

Good thread, RDW - although are you suggesting that Ulster fans are a bunch of wistful romantics who will ultimately meet with their doom at the hands of cruel happenstance? Notch will be along in a minute to ban you.

Toolis is another interesting one.

If Hamilton is rested from the Scotland squad because of "injury" (i.e. being a complete liability) then surely Toolis is first in line to take his place? This will show the hard edge between SRU control and Pappy managing his own players (which he has shown every intention of doing).

George Carlin wrote:Good thread, RDW - although are you suggesting that Ulster fans are a bunch of wistful romantics who will ultimately meet with their doom at the hands of cruel happenstance? Notch will be along in a minute to ban you.

Toolis is another interesting one.

If Hamilton is rested from the Scotland squad because of "injury" (i.e. being a complete liability) then surely Toolis is first in line to take his place? This will show the hard edge between SRU control and Pappy managing his own players (which he has shown every intention of doing).

By your logic then I'm calling Edinburgh fans a bunch of junkies...!

Richie Gray is the one that might be injured - not heard anything about Hamilton?

To be fair Brelser and Atkins did pretty well on Friday, and McKenzie is a very able bench option, so I wouldn't be too fussed it Toolis didn't play. It is a shame to see him and Watson caught between the two teams though - not in the Scotland 23, but because they are injury cover for the matchday squad they can't be in the Edinburgh one either!

For me this game entirely rests on who he selects at 10. I'm sure most of you will have seen that I'm not exactly enamoured by Jade Te Rure so far, and I fear the worst if he plays against Ulster.

With 6 tries in their last game, Ulster should be confident.

Difficult to predict a score for this one - I think that Te Rure could be very good and I'm keen to see more of him.

What you need to work out is whether I'm only saying that to annoy RDW...

George Carlin wrote:With 6 tries in their last game, Ulster should be confident.

Difficult to predict a score for this one - I think that Te Rure could be very good and I'm keen to see more of him.

What you need to work out is whether I'm only saying that to annoy RDW...

To be fair, that was against Treviso at home - even we managed to pump them at home (48-0)!

As for the Te Rure comment -

I think Ulster are the best team in the league during the international window, with real quality throughout the squad. I mean, look at their backline alone from last week

Ludik, Gilroy, Cave, L. Marshall, Allen, Humphreys, Pienaar

And they could still bring McClosky off the bench!

This will be a stern test for us.

Good thread RDW


I expect we’ll probably see a similar team to last week, there is very little need to change. Yes bringing back the Scottish players will improve the side, but they are likely to need a rest. With that said, what are the chances of Scott getting a run out? He looks like he needs a bit of gametime, but if anything happens to him then Scotland are down in quality bench cover.

So probably no change I guess.

Forgot about Matt Scott - he definitely needs gametime!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

George Carlin wrote:With 6 tries in their last game, Ulster should be confident.

Difficult to predict a score for this one - I think that Te Rure could be very good and I'm keen to see more of him.

What you need to work out is whether I'm only saying that to annoy RDW...

As for the Te Rure comment -

Where did this irrational hatred of Te Rure come from RDW?

Is it because he's a kilted Kiwi?

We've only seen him play twice. I've heard you stick up for players for half a season before! What have you got against this lad?

There's nothing irrational about it - I just don't think he's very good!

It is partly me deliberately making a meal of it to wind people up, but mainly because I don't think we should be pursuing with him just now given the key stage of the season we're at.

Put him on the bench because there's no one else (although would still prefer Burleigh at 10 over him!) but there's no way in hell he should be starting against Ulster. We really need to win this, so it isn't the time to give a trialist another shot in the hope he comes good.

His highlights reel when he joined Edinburgh gave us some advanced warning - he was making the odd half break, but because he's small if he doesn't get through a gap he is absolutely mashed.

Furthermore, his game control skills remind of of Matawalu at his worst - his own players don't even know what he's trying to do never mind the opposition! Ospreys got 3 points on Friday after he made a real mess of things when we were attacking their 22.

His goal kicking is truly awful, but I blame the coaches for that - he obviously shouldn't be kicking goals! Cuthbert proved himself to be a 70%+ kicker last season.

As I've discussed before his basic skills look poor, and I would have expected a hell of a lot more from someone with New Zealand under 20 caps.

Yes he's young and will improve, but why are we so intent on continually playing a kiwi trialist for key, must win games when we have a perfectly good, experienced (for his age) 10 in Heathcoat??

p.s. It has absolutely nothing to do with him being a kilted kiwi - for those that know me I'm generally for foreign imports, as long as they are better than any of the options we have. Which Te Rure isn't.

p.p.s he's actually had 3 appearance - 2 from the bench

Assuming Heathcote is is not off until the end of the season...

With Toolis almost certainly going to get to called up to deputise for Gray Surfeychick then I would think that Atkins-Bresler will continue to be the boiler room with a poor random on the bench.

RDW - you seem to be doing your Liza Minelli impression again. Te Rure is not that bad. I would also prefer Hurley but I would similarly rather have Hurley in the midfield with Beard or Scott as we're actually going to score tries that way. Put it this way - Te Rure or Strauss? Exactly.

George Carlin wrote:Good thread, RDW - although are you suggesting that Ulster fans are a bunch of wistful romantics who will ultimately meet with their doom at the hands of cruel happenstance? Notch will be along in a minute to ban you.

Toolis is another interesting one.

If Hamilton is rested from the Scotland squad because of "injury" (i.e. being a complete liability) then surely Toolis is first in line to take his place? This will show the hard edge between SRU control and Pappy managing his own players (which he has shown every intention of doing).

Are you going to "take him out" George?

George Carlin wrote: Te Rure is not that bad.

Oh yes he is!

I suppose you're right about Te Rure vs Strauss, but with Matt Scott back you don't need either! Also, at least with Strauss you get solid but unspecacular.  I'm not overly convinced you will get the 'solid' from Te Rure just now.

Anyway, if he does play on Friday and has a shocker, losing us the game, then expect plenty of the following:

RDW_Scotland wrote:There's nothing irrational about it - I just don't think he's very good!

It is partly me deliberately making a meal of it to wind people up, but mainly because I don't think we should be pursuing with him just now given the key stage of the season we're at.

Put him on the bench because there's no one else (although would still prefer Burleigh at 10 over him!) but there's no way in hell he should be starting against Ulster. We really need to win this, so it isn't the time to give a trialist another shot in the hope he comes good.

His highlights reel when he joined Edinburgh gave us some advanced warning - he was making the odd half break, but because he's small if he doesn't get through a gap he is absolutely mashed.

Furthermore, his game control skills remind of of Matawalu at his worst - his own players don't even know what he's trying to do never mind the opposition! Ospreys got 3 points on Friday after he made a real mess of things when we were attacking their 22.

His goal kicking is truly awful, but I blame the coaches for that - he obviously shouldn't be kicking goals! Cuthbert proved himself to be a 70%+ kicker last season.

As I've discussed before his basic skills look poor, and I would have expected a hell of a lot more from someone with New Zealand under 20 caps.

Yes he's young and will improve, but why are we so intent on continually playing a kiwi trialist for key, must win games when we have a perfectly good, experienced (for his age) 10 in Heathcoat??

p.s. It has absolutely nothing to do with him being a kilted kiwi - for those that know me I'm generally for foreign imports, as long as they are better than any of the options we have. Which Te Rure isn't.

p.p.s he's actually had 3 appearance - 2 from the bench

Not sure I agree with that, his kicking from hand has looked good and, as I've said before, everyone even Russell has had duff days with their goal kicking. Te Rure's USP is his heads up running game and he looks to be very talented in that respect.

To be fair, there's having an off day with goal kicks and there's missing one straight in front of the posts, and relying on the upright for another one straight in front of the posts to go over!

Does no one else agree with me here?? What is everyone seeing that I'm not?

Again I just don't understand why people are so keen to see him play when we're relying on him suddenly becoming good, and when we have 2 perfectly good 10s fit and ready to go!

I agree with you RDW! Regardless of the odd flash of skill and footwork, his game management and kicking both from hand and at goal looked completely inept.

The weegies are just trying to undermine us. After their 1872 pumping (have I mentioned that before?) they are running scared and will stop at nothing to make suggestions which could weaken us.

This is the team I'd like for the Ulster game:

1.Sutherland 2.McInally 3.Nel 4.Bresler 5.Toolis 6.Grant 7.Watson 8.Coman (c) 9.Hart 10.Tonks 11.Hoyland 12.Scott 13.Beard 14.Fife 15.Cuthbert

16.Shiells 17.Cochrane 18.Andress 19.McKenzie 20.Blake 21.Kennedy 22.Burleigh 23.Brown

Very much a team with Scotland in mind, but I think Toolis, Watson, Tonks, Scott and Fife would really benefit from a game. Very harsh on Burleigh who has been outstanding, but Scott desperately needs a game at 12.

I've always liked you FES!

I do like your team, and I suspect all of the mentioned Scotland players will be made available except Tonks.

If he gets injured then we're down to Horne!

Really want to see Hoyland have another game, especially on the big wide pitch at Murrayfield.

Saying that, if Cotter is expecting Seymour and Maitland back then Visser might be made available too.

RDW_Scotland wrote:To be fair, there's having an off day with goal kicks and there's missing one straight in front of the posts, and relying on the upright for another one straight in front of the posts to go over!

Does no one else agree with me here?? What is everyone seeing that I'm not?

Again I just don't understand why people are so keen to see him play when we're relying on him suddenly becoming good, and when we have 2 perfectly good 10s fit and ready to go!

I (almost) agree we you!  If Te Rure is starting at 10 on Friday I will be very nervous.  He is the polar opposite of Strauss who is Steady Eddie.   Te Rure seems (admittedly judged on less than 160minutes)  to be on a pendulum between the sublime and the ridiculous.  Against a very dangerous Ulster backline if his "ridiculous" turns up we could be in for a horsing.  Would prefer him to have a few more runs off the bench which will help offer something different if need be but give him a chance to sort his game management and get on the same wavelength with his team-mates.  
For this game, and I will whisper it quietly  I'd rather have Strauss starting at 12 than Te Rure at 10 for this particular game.

That said, I suspect Te Rure will get the nod, in which case I'd hope they'll take the placekicking duties away from him (pressure he doesnt need - Cuthbert is more than capeable), and I will have all my fingers and toes crossed for his "sublime" on Friday.


Also: just seen FES post. Dropping Burleigh from 12 would be criminal the way he is playing. The only reason he would be dropped would be because he isn't Scottish. I appreciate that an SQ should get the call over an NSQ on any close calls, but given Burleighs form and Scott's lack of it in the gametime he has had, it isn't a close call in my eyes. Scott has been fairly poor and missed a key tackle for Scotland last week. I won't win many friends here but if Scott is to start this weekend it has to be 13.

Always liked you too JonnyEdinburgh!

As a reward, feel free to say whatever you want to a weegie of your choice for the next 24 hours, and I'll make sure you don't get banned!

When Scott has 13 on his back he plays at 12 in attack for Edinburgh, but maybe his recent unfamiliarity in defence at 12 was the reason he wasn't quite in the right place for JD2s try?

"Token ulster reply"

To be fair Biggar did a great job holding onto the ball to release JD2 on the angle at the last minute. Scott should have adjusted, but it was as much Welsh skill than down to Scott. That said, I'm pretty confident Dunbar would have stopped him, but I'm equally confident Scott would have put Bennett over for that missed try in the first half.

My Edinburgh head says stick with Burleigh, but if Scott is going to make any impression for Scotland at 12, he really needs gametime there in order to rediscover form.

No reason to stoop to Strauss at 12. Burleigh, Scott, Beard, Jacobsen and Gilding could all do a better job.

can we all please stop saying Strauss, it's giving me palpitations.

Oh and I to an extent agree with you RDW, I don't rate Te Rure....yet.  But i have only seen him play a very small amount of rugby, and he looks like he could possibly improve the weak parts of his game.  That said I would much rather we were keeping Heathcote.

I do wonder whose choice the Heathcote move really was. Worcester is pretty close to his family etc. and whilst we've claimed him as one of his own, I think his only "Scottish" connection was the MOD policy of sticking its weapons as far a way from London as possible (ASBO, that one was for you).

He has had regular rugby this season albeit usurped by Tonks from the 1st XV from Christmas, and based on what we've seen from Te Rure so far he certainly doesn't hail from Ayr. I suspect the move is at least in part down to him wanting to move back.

Tribute to our beloved club legend:

"To A Strauss"
Wee, sleekit, cow'rin, tim'rous Straussy,
When you're 12, panic's in my breastie.
Thou need na start aheid o' Scotty,
Ye rarely dazzle.
Even Grannie cud rin an' chase thee,
Nay offload oot the tackle.

Good work mate

Excellent - better than Burns himself!

Reported in the Belfast Tele that Henderson will be released for the game on Friday.

theshanker wrote:Reported in the Belfast Tele that Henderson will be released for the game on Friday.

Bad news for Edinburgh, an excellent player.

The Boss wrote:"Token ulster reply"

Well stop kicking your heels on Notch's Thread of Ulster Misery and come over there. We've just put the kettle on and apart from certain posters from the nicer part of Edinburgh, we tend to be magnanimous, practical and good craic.

In comparison, I have stopped posting questions on the Ulster season thread because my last 3 just got completely ignored.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Excellent - better than Burns himself!

Jeez - always anti-Ayrshire.

George Carlin wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Excellent - better than Burns himself!

Jeez - always anti-Ayrshire.

I suppose the bacon is ok.

This week I think we may see both Henderson and Diack starting, Henderson in the second row to get gametime there for Ireland duty, Best, Payne and Bowe will prob be rested.

Think it will be

Ludik, Gilroy, Cave, L. Marshall, Allen, Humphreys, Pienaar, Black, Herring, Herbst, Henderson, Van der Merwe, Wilson, Diack, Williams.

Edinburgh have really turned their season around, from it looking like it would be all over if lost the Connacht game to being right in the fight for 6th spot.

Ulster win here would do ourselves and Connacht a hugh favor.

That's a really decent Ulster backline, although McCloskey might concern me more than Marshall.

Edinburgh will need to target the Ulster set piece, and whoever we have a half back is going to need to play smart.

Ulster favourites for me, despite our good form coming into this.

I would hope that McCloskey will start at 12 and Henderson will start at 6- although I suppose if Lewis Stevenson was in line to start again at lock Henderson should start ahead of him, given his total uselessness against Treviso. Edinburgh can target our set piece, but no-one is going after our front row! I believe its the best scrummaging front row in the league so long as Black and Herbst are there.

At Pro12 level McCloskey is good for at least two ridiculously improbable line breaks through the middle per game and has the skills to make sure the move doesn't break down so long as someone gets on his shoulder. I like Luke Marshall but he simply isn't as dangerous, which raises questions about his future with Stuart Olding there as well. He hasn't been the same threat since he had that series of concussions in 2013.

Where do Ulster fans see Henderson's best position? I had him down as a lock personally, but much talk of him at 6. Does he have the pace/guile for the backrow, or is his size/height an issue for lock?

The Edinburgh scrum and lineout has been excellent this season, so I look forward to seeing how we get on against the "best scrummaging front row in the league" no less.

Our weakness is in the backline, where we lack the sort of cutting edge you'll get from Gilroy, Cave and Ludik. That's where I see the biggest mismatch. Gilroy could make Cuthbert look pretty silly.

Given that we are smack in the middle of the 6N, that Ulster team is frightening

Weegie Wizard wrote:Given that we are smack in the middle of the 6N, that Ulster team is frightening

Agreed, although I fairly pleased with the Edinburgh line-up as well. Nel, Bresler, Grant and more recently Coman is a pretty handy core to the pack, and throw in a form Hamish Watson and you can rest assured that Ulster will not find this easy.

Hart had a stormer at 9 against the Ospreys, and the midfield of Burleigh and Beard worked well. Our back three lacks cutting edge, although Hoyland has wheels.

I do see Ulster as favourites, but I don't dread Edinburgh games in the same way I used to!

So bar Bowe this will be a full strenght Ulster team?

VinceWLB wrote:So bar Bowe this will be a full strenght Ulster team?

I presume Payne will also miss out. Best as well.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:So bar Bowe this will be a full strenght Ulster team?

I presume Payne will also miss out. Best as well.

Aye forgot about Best. And i think they won't miss Payne much as i believe they are fairly well stocked at centre.

This is the real test for the Edinburgh pack, you don't see many teams scoring 2 rolling maul tries against Toulon but Ulster did it.

VinceWLB wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:So bar Bowe this will be a full strenght Ulster team?

I presume Payne will also miss out. Best as well.

Aye forgot about Best. And i think they won't miss Payne much as i believe they are fairly well stocked at centre.

This is the real test for the Edinburgh pack, you don't see many teams scoring 2 rolling maul tries against Toulon but Ulster did it.

Defending rolling mauls is hard work these days. If you don't bring it down immediately the only hope is to hold it still for long enough so the ref forces the scrum half to move the ball. Once it's moving you're doomed. I actually think more sides should compete for the source ball off the lineout, given the difficulty defending it once it's moving. Sure, you run the risk of commiting players to the jump/lift, but I would personally endorse the gamble and designate those not involved in challenging for the ball to collapse the receiver immediately before the maul can form.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Where do Ulster fans see Henderson's best position? I had him down as a lock personally, but much talk of him at 6. Does he have the pace/guile for the backrow, or is his size/height an issue for lock?

The Edinburgh scrum and lineout has been excellent this season, so I look forward to seeing how we get on against the "best scrummaging front row in the league" no less.

Our weakness is in the backline, where we lack the sort of cutting edge you'll get from Gilroy, Cave and Ludik. That's where I see the biggest mismatch. Gilroy could make Cuthbert look pretty silly.

I see him at 6 because we need him at 6. He made a couple of brilliant turnovers in his five minutes on Saturday, which Barnes utterly mystifyingly awarded as French scrums.

Notch wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Where do Ulster fans see Henderson's best position? I had him down as a lock personally, but much talk of him at 6. Does he have the pace/guile for the backrow, or is his size/height an issue for lock?

The Edinburgh scrum and lineout has been excellent this season, so I look forward to seeing how we get on against the "best scrummaging front row in the league" no less.

Our weakness is in the backline, where we lack the sort of cutting edge you'll get from Gilroy, Cave and Ludik. That's where I see the biggest mismatch. Gilroy could make Cuthbert look pretty silly.

I see him at 6 because we need him at 6. He made a couple of brilliant turnovers in his five minutes on Saturday, which Barnes utterly mystifyingly awarded as French scrums.

Personally I think orders will come down that he at least has to play at least 60 mins at lock, as thats where he has been coming in for the 6 Nations, think they would like him to get gametime there.

I see the backrow as Wilson, Diack, Williams. Diack was the only unused sub against Italy but is really close to the Ireland squad, so with th e njury to Healsip may make the bench again against England so will prob start here to get gametime.

On the other hand, Henderson may get game time in the back row since Heaslip is out.

Ireland could do worse than playing a backrow of 6 Henderson 7 O'Mahony 8 O'Brien against England. I don't think Diack is international quality, plays him on the bench. One of McCarthy/Tuohy to cover the second row. Heaslip is almost never injured (it took a cheap shot to injure him) so will be curious to see how Ireland deal with his absence.

I would like to see Henderson play 8 for Ulster as he has the skillset and power but he hasn't played there since his u20 days. Joe seems to like Diack because he has played him at 6, 8 and lock so he must still be in the running for the RWC squad. For the England game I'd be a bit surprised if Joe didn't just start Murphy for Heaslip.

Is O'Connor out? Why wasn't he playing last week? Van den Merwe and O'Connor in the second row, Henderson, Wilson and Diack at back row.

VinceWLB wrote:Ireland could do worse than playing a backrow of 6 Henderson 7 O'Mahony 8 O'Brien against England. I don't think Diack is international quality, plays him on the bench. One of McCarthy/Tuohy to cover the second row. Heaslip is almost never injured (it took a cheap shot to injure him) so will be curious to see how Ireland deal with his absence.

Tuohy is nowhere near fit

O'Connor I don't know trying to find out.

The Great Aukster wrote:I would like to see Henderson play 8 for Ulster as he has the skillset and power but he hasn't played there since his u20 days. Joe seems to like Diack because he has played him at 6, 8 and lock so he must still be in the running for the RWC squad. For the England game I'd be a bit surprised if Joe didn't just start Murphy for Heaslip.

Henderson will be the 4th Lock/6th backrower in the Irish squad.
Baring a shed load of injuries Diack will be nowhere near the squad

Team announcement day! As long as we don't see

10 Jade Te Rure

I'll be happy!