State of the team: England

First topic message reminder :

What are your thoughts on where we are as a team at the end of the 6 nations.

I believe we are a lot better at creating chances which is certainly an improvement on last year, i think this is due to the half back partnership between B. Youngs and Ford. B. Youngs seems to have found his form again. For me Ford is miles ahead of Farrell at the moment, he improves our attacking play so much more than him. His work with his club mate Joseph is working well too. Talking of Joseph, he's had a really good six nations and probably one of our best players.

Still not sure why Care isnt in the match day squad, not sure what Wigglesworth brings other than being a different type of player to B. Youngs. What has been bit of an issue this year (i can't believe im about to say this about an england team) is our scrum. It hasn't been as powerful as years gone by, is that a result of our forwards being told to up their work rate around the park and being tied at scrum time?

This year we have been creating chances but not finishing them off, we also seem to have a fair few handling errors that needs stamping out. How are we going to do this? Can we? Is it just the players need some more game time with each other?

What are anyone elses thoughts on where we're at?

Hey. I respect beshocked.

Interesting interview with Slade today where he points out he often stands at 12 for Exeter when playing 13. SL has told him to work on his leadership (and presence). I expect he'll become recognised as a World Class player and will be our IC for the next WC, but has he left it too late for this?

Burrell has played himself out of contention at 12, and I don't think the coaching staff fully trust Twelvetrees now. It will be Farrell, Barritt or Slade in the autumn I reckon.

DaveM wrote:Interesting interview with Slade today where he points out he often stands at 12 for Exeter when playing 13. SL has told him to work on his leadership (and presence). I expect he'll become recognised as a World Class player and will be our IC for the next WC, but has he left it too late for this?  

Burrell has played himself out of contention at 12, and I don't think the coaching staff fully trust Twelvetrees now. It will be Farrell, Barritt or Slade in the autumn I reckon.  

I feel Barritt should be tried first at 12 if fit, hopefully he would help with the defensive issues we saw in the 6N. Based on Joesph's performances I think you can add Tuilagi to the list of potential 12's as well, feel SL will want him in somewhere if he is fully fit. Not sure myself but happy for them to give it a try in the warm up games although I think he would make a great number 23.

After watching the Sarries v Quins game today surely Chris Aston deserves a recall to the England team?

Ashton is the best finisher in the AP. There are question marks over his temperament (another yc given away needlessly today). He's also iffy under the high ball. He showed some impressive pace and his work rate is right up there. I'd certainly name him the squad if this form continues.

Slade would make a good 22 bench option but given his lack of international game time and the form of Cipriani might make that selection unlikely. The continued concern over Manu's fitness doesn't help him either as a back line of Ford, Slade, Joseph lacks any sort of physical edge, though defence coaches would be quickly prepping the defensive scramble as those guys would be making a least one half break each.

Cockerill is now saying Tuilagi probably won't play before the end of the season, and will go straight into England's world cup camp.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32105042

thomh wrote:Cockerill is now saying Tuilagi probably won't play before the end of the season, and will go straight into England's world cup camp.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32105042

Yeah, heard him say that on radio on my drive home after yesterdays game. I reckon though that Manu is, like big-foot, a myth invented for children.

Tuilagi and Corbisiero 

The two players who on top form would be the closest we have to a World XV and they're both crocks! Sods law

Corbs is fit Bam, he played on Friday.

I'm not sure how Corbs has took to the new laws actually, he needs a good run.

Is Corbs acually that good?

Apart from that Lions game where he was very good admittedly, what's he done to be in a World XV?

He is living off reputation a little but he's a good scrummager when fully fit, he just never seems to be fully fit. More than happy with Marler & Cole as our primary props for now.

I thought he scored a try the other day. Surely that is not living on reputation is it?

Big whoopie

BamBam wrote:Tuilagi and Corbisiero 

The two players who on top form would be the closest we have to a World XV and they're both crocks! Sods law

He's been injured so much since 2013 that I'm really not convinced of how good his scrummaging is with the new laws.

I often thought that, a bit like Adam Jones, his scrummaging prowess was largely built on how destructive he was in the 'hit'. As seen on the Lions tour he was excellent at knocking his opposing tight head out of shape in the hit which then allowed him to bore in with the impression that it was the tight head in the wrong.

With the new scrum laws not allowing him to do this I am still yet to be convinced his scrummaging is still at that level however.

On a broader point, even as a Tigers fan and an advocate of Tuilagi as more than the battering ram many believe him to be. I really feel the injured absentee we've missed most this season has been Launchbury by quite a distance.

One thing I would add about Ashton is that his kicking from hand and footballing skills in general have improved. When you play for a club that likes to kick more than others it's no surprise that part of the game will be honed!

I agree formerly known as sam, Ashton's tackling technique is still an issue. Ironically sometimes Ashton tackles too hard which gets him in trouble. Just can't get the right balance at times.

Would love Ashton to bring his try scoring form back to internationals but I am still not convinced that Lancaster utilises wingers effectively enough.

Wingers can be brilliant attacking weapons if utilised properly - some teams use them better than others.


On a side note it's a shame to see Yarde floundering at Quins. One would have expected with a stronger team than LI that he would have kicked on but it hasn't happened as of yet.

king_carlos wrote: I really feel the injured absentee we've missed most this season has been Launchbury by quite a distance.

It would be Morgan for me. When I think of the best performances by England under Lancaster, Morgan has been playing. France, Ireland, New Zealand 2012; really missed him SN 2013; Ireland, Wales, Australia 2014. To me he brought England back in to the game against South Africa last year too. Very vocal as well.

I can't recall seeing Vunipola talk on the pitch. Even when he scores a try there's not much reaction. Did anyone see Ford say something along the lines of "f**king scrum!" to the pack at the end of the England France match? And he is a year younger than Vunipola.

MichaelT wrote:

king_carlos wrote: I really feel the injured absentee we've missed most this season has been Launchbury by quite a distance.

It would be Morgan for me. When I think of the best performances by England under Lancaster, Morgan has been playing. France, Ireland, New Zealand 2012; really missed him SN 2013; Ireland, Wales, Australia 2014. To me he brought England back in to the game against South Africa last year too. Very vocal as well.

I can't recall seeing Vunipola talk on the pitch. Even when he scores a try there's not much reaction. Did anyone see Ford say something along the lines of "f**king scrum!" to the pack at the end of the England France match? And he is a year younger than Vunipola.

I am sorry MichaelT but I completely disagree.

Vunipola was one of the best England players as shown by his nomination for player of the tournament. His workrate was incredible.Two tries, most carries, did his fair share of tackles. Played every minute of every game - can't say that of every player.

Morgan is a good player but his fitness is questionable.

beshocked wrote:

MichaelT wrote:

king_carlos wrote: I really feel the injured absentee we've missed most this season has been Launchbury by quite a distance.

It would be Morgan for me. When I think of the best performances by England under Lancaster, Morgan has been playing. France, Ireland, New Zealand 2012; really missed him SN 2013; Ireland, Wales, Australia 2014. To me he brought England back in to the game against South Africa last year too. Very vocal as well.

I can't recall seeing Vunipola talk on the pitch. Even when he scores a try there's not much reaction. Did anyone see Ford say something along the lines of "f**king scrum!" to the pack at the end of the England France match? And he is a year younger than Vunipola.

I am sorry MichaelT but I completely disagree.

Vunipola was one of the best England players as shown by his nomination for player of the tournament. His workrate was incredible.Two tries, most carries, did his fair share of tackles. Played every minute of every game - can't say that of every player.

Morgan is a good player but his fitness is questionable.

Fair enough, I get all that, but Vunipola playing all tournament is that because Morgan is injured, and there was no one else to replace him with Haskell also starting and Easter covering lock?

I feel England play better when Morgan is there than Vunipola, always have and the last AIs proved it to me.

Its a shame Morgan has been injured so much. I wonder if he is injured because he is unfit or unfit because of the injuries.

To Billy's credit I think him playing every minute is because he is fit enough to do so, which is quite an achievement considering his size and work rate.

They could have easily kept locks on and brought on Easter at 8, or moved Haskell around if there was a need.

I think Billy vs Morgan is a bit constant work rate vs someone who is really explosive when the chances come up. I think Morgan at his best edges Billy but not by much.

What positions are still up for grabs? There's a couple of 50 50s, Corbs if he can prove fitness and form but Marler has been excellent. Youngs over Hartley, discussion point though I think Hartley is down as first pick. Bill or Ben?

Open for challenge inside centre and right wing?

No 7&1/2 wrote:What positions are still up for grabs? There's a couple of 50 50s, Corbs if he can prove fitness and form but Marler has been excellent. Youngs over Hartley, discussion point though I think Hartley is down as first pick. Bill or Ben?

Open for challenge inside centre and right wing?

Youngs can't start until he learns to throw consistantly, Hartley is pretty much nailed on despite an average 6N.

It is the weakest part of his game and he will work on it, not sure it's a major issue though. given these days both hookers will play the match 60 40 or a touch more towards half half is it a reason not to start him? A crucial lineout could happen any time?

No 7&1/2 wrote:It is the weakest part of his game and he will work on it, not sure it's a major issue though. given these days both hookers will play the match 60 40 or a touch more towards half half is it a reason not to start him? A crucial lineout could happen any time?

I wouldn't have him involved all tbh. A hooker with a poor throw shouldn't be playing Int rugby.

Not sure Young's that poor but you're probably down to Jaime George then. It's moot like because the coaches are obviously big fans.

Won't win the world cup at this rate, won't be able to compete with either SA or NZ... might be able to beat IRE at home but I think that's all they can hope for at the moment.

My reasoning is thus, they are strong but they are in a pickle over their 10. They are now picking a backline around Fords game which is positive. The problem is he is the worst place kicker in the international scene (for  serious top 10 sides).
In tight games you will always lose in a tight shoot out against better kickers in Cruden, Pollard, Sexton.... and when the game goes 10 points down you start chasing and thats when the opposition puts you away.

SA always plays the best kicker at 10 regardless... as for all the positive play, nothing keeps you in tight games as someone kicking 5/6 every match from anywhere in the opposition area. Carlos Spencer was quite possibly the most talented 10 ever to grace the pro era and was prolific in NZ for what 10 years.... yet he only got 35 caps I think. His only flaw was that he couldn't hit a barn door with his place kicking.

I would seriously consider playing Farrell at 12 and giving him all the duties. Against IRE they lost because Ford couldn't keep them in the game. Against France they didn't build the lead they needed because Robshaw and Ford refused the 3s in the 2nd half naively for corner kicks perhaps due to range but also because its a real weakness in Robshaw's game... he goes for the big jackpot too much... exciting but that doesn't win titles.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure Young's that poor but you're probably down to Jaime George then. It's moot like because the coaches are obviously big fans.

I think it's more to do with nobody else really putting their hands up. George would be a good shout, he's certainly improved with the prolonged run.

The coaches aslo seem to big fans of Twelvetrees......

Well i'd agree if we saw a hooker who was amazing he'd be in. Not sure we have one though. George is the only longish shot but I don't think he's better than Youngs.

Everyone knows I'd have had Twelvetrees in the team up until now as he's the most rounded of an average bunch. There's a lad called Slade who I think could be special though. If he gets a chance in the warm ups I think we may end up seeing him at the WC but currently 36 or Barritt seem more likely. Barritt is the new favourite until he reproduces the form that saw everyone calling for his head last time!

Probable matchday squad for Round 2 vs Wales, injuries permitting:

Marler, Hartley, Cole, Lawes, Launchbury, Wood, Robshaw, Vunipola, Youngs, Ford, Nowell, TBC, Joseph, Watson, Brown

Youngs, TBC, Wilson, Parling, TBC, TBC, TBC, Tuilagi


I think, except for 12, the starting XV is close to set. Main decisions are on the bench - Mako v Corbs, Back row cover (will Morgan be fit?), SH and FH/Utility back cover.

With the performance and communication between Ford and Joseph the no.12 has often been a bystander, so it would be good to bring in someone who can definitely add something. Barritt would make a difference and has complementary skills to the guys either side of him. I think the complaints have been more to do with when he has had to be more creative, which isnt an issue with the current set up.

Yes I'd also like to see Tuilagi tried, Slade is making a great case (also as reserve kicker) and there is still 36 and at a pinch the guy who should be the super sub, Eastmond. Burrell could easily miss out

Think Wade, May or Ashton may force their way in with a great run of form.

Lost, Burrell wasn't bad in defence it was more his attacking which was criticised for. That said I can see barritt coming back in, probably as a stop gap for the WC.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think Wade, May or Ashton may force their way in with a great run of form.

Lost, Burrell wasn't bad in defence it was more his attacking which was criticised for. That said I can see barritt coming back in, probably as a stop gap for the WC.

I know what you are saying, and we can be very fast to attack guys based on a couple of mistakes, but I do think we would have done better with Barritt at 12 vs France (and probably the other games). You'd be swapping a 'wasn't bad' for a 'good' for starters

Burrell makes so many mistakes n defence and attack, he needs to be accountable. Barritt although unspectacular is very solid, something that Burrell isn't.

In defence maybe, though like I said he wasn't bad and helped stemmed the tide against NZ in the summer at IC. If Burrell wasn't solid if unspectacular what was he?

Burrell wasn't solid. He slipped off a lot of tackles and I lost count of the fumbles he made, he had a poor 6N on the whole imo.

no 7 & 1/2 I agree.

12 and 14 certainly seem the most open spots.

I remember him dropping off a few in the AIs but can't remember too much issue in 6N.

You see beshocked

Burrell 30 tackles made, 10 missed in 6Ns. More worrying was his tendency to rush up and leave a dogleg however.

I stand corrected then. Still hoping for twelvetrees over Barritt though.

Burrell didn't even play in the AIs.

thomh wrote:Burrell didn't even play in the AIs.

Didnt play much in the 6N either 

I'm losing it. The drop offs I remember must be 6Ns?!

No 7&1/2 wrote:I stand corrected then. Still hoping for twelvetrees over Barritt though.

If Barritt is fully fit and playing well i would take him over twelvetrees any time. His tackling is much much better.

Yup, I'd agree on the tackling. I wouldn't pick an inside centre to be good at tackling though. Both 6 out of 10 players for me as is everyone since Catt and Greenwood, hence I'd love Slade to nail it as I think he's the guy we've been after.

lostinwales wrote:

thomh wrote:Burrell didn't even play in the AIs.

Didnt play much in the 6N either 

He did play. He made line breaks. Unfortunately he either dropped the ball or failed to pass and was tackled and penalised. He has comprehensively shown he is not top class.

It is probably too late for Slade who should have been given the 6N to prove himself. We have to make do with Barritt who is not perfect but at least he is great at one aspect of the game - defence.

I would have no issues going with a midfield of

10 Ford
12 Barritt
13 Joseph.

Agreed ^

fa0019 wrote:Won't win the world cup at this rate, won't be able to compete with either SA or NZ... might be able to beat IRE at home but I think that's all they can hope for at the moment.

My reasoning is thus, they are strong but they are in a pickle over their 10. They are now picking a backline around Fords game which is positive. The problem is he is the worst place kicker in the international scene (for  serious top 10 sides).
In tight games you will always lose in a tight shoot out against better kickers in Cruden, Pollard, Sexton.... and when the game goes 10 points down you start chasing and thats when the opposition puts you away.

SA always plays the best kicker at 10 regardless... as for all the positive play, nothing keeps you in tight games as someone kicking 5/6 every match from anywhere in the opposition area. Carlos Spencer was quite possibly the most talented 10 ever to grace the pro era and was prolific in NZ for what 10 years.... yet he only got 35 caps I think. His only flaw was that he couldn't hit a barn door with his place kicking.

I would seriously consider playing Farrell at 12 and giving him all the duties. Against IRE they lost because Ford couldn't keep them in the game. Against France they didn't build the lead they needed because Robshaw and Ford refused the 3s in the 2nd half naively for corner kicks perhaps due to range but also because its a real weakness in Robshaw's game... he goes for the big jackpot too much... exciting but that doesn't win titles.

I don't think Ford's place kicking was actually that bad in the 6 nations. Kicking from hand and kick chase from the whole team was below par though.

Decision making at times was very poor from England, particularly vs Ireland.

At the restarts Ford kicked the ball to Zebo again and again. Zebo loved it as he was under no pressure.

You talk about Robshaw going for the jackpot - he didn't vs SA when he got lambasted for his decision....


Personally I think England could do with a better captain than Robshaw - unfortunately no one else is making a huge case to be made captain.

I know the point has been made but one reason our kick chase and restarts against Ireland were so poor was the absence of May.

He made his mistakes no doubt but his chasing was excellent and his sheer pace allowed him to put so much pressure on the receiver. Go back over England's first 2 games of the 6N and almost every restart is dropped on the same place Zebo was standing it's just May was there to put the hit in.

The implication of this in our tactics is fairly worrying however given it seems that nobody in the setup realised until an hour into the match that Nowell is slower than May...

It really isn't difficult to kick shorter and compete. Just look at how NZ hampered Mike Browns aerial skills during the Summer series by kicking much shorter and ensuring there was someone directly under each kick so Brown couldn't use his leap to dominate as he usually does.

king carlos shouldn't rely on one player to kick chase!

I agree it's not difficult to kick shorter - it's a shame England could not and did not adapt.

The coaches and Ford have to take a lot of responsibility for that.

beshocked wrote:king carlos shouldn't rely on one player to kick chase!

I agree it's not difficult to kick shorter - it's a shame England could not and did not adapt.

The coaches and Ford have to take a lot of responsibility for that.

Agreed beshocked.

The point I was making with regards to May is that I don't believe our kicking was better when he was in the side. It's just that from the restarts he cleaned things up, almost always putting the hit in and keeping the opposition behind their 22.

Similarly in open play I don't think our kicking changed between the Wales/Italy games and the trip to Dublin. In the first two matches the kicks were too long still and even Watson, a guy with bags of pace and good aerial skills, wasn't able to put pressure on kicks down the right wing. However given how quick May is off the mark he could clear up some of this poor kicking down the left touchline.

It's been a problem that has plagued England for a ridiculous number of years now. Whether it's been Care/Farrell or Youngs/Ford the kicking has been too long far too often.