State of the team: England

First topic message reminder :

What are your thoughts on where we are as a team at the end of the 6 nations.

I believe we are a lot better at creating chances which is certainly an improvement on last year, i think this is due to the half back partnership between B. Youngs and Ford. B. Youngs seems to have found his form again. For me Ford is miles ahead of Farrell at the moment, he improves our attacking play so much more than him. His work with his club mate Joseph is working well too. Talking of Joseph, he's had a really good six nations and probably one of our best players.

Still not sure why Care isnt in the match day squad, not sure what Wigglesworth brings other than being a different type of player to B. Youngs. What has been bit of an issue this year (i can't believe im about to say this about an england team) is our scrum. It hasn't been as powerful as years gone by, is that a result of our forwards being told to up their work rate around the park and being tied at scrum time?

This year we have been creating chances but not finishing them off, we also seem to have a fair few handling errors that needs stamping out. How are we going to do this? Can we? Is it just the players need some more game time with each other?

What are anyone elses thoughts on where we're at?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It is the weakest part of his game and he will work on it, not sure it's a major issue though. given these days both hookers will play the match 60 40 or a touch more towards half half is it a reason not to start him? A crucial lineout could happen any time?

I wouldn't have him involved all tbh. A hooker with a poor throw shouldn't be playing Int rugby.

Well he had a better record this 6 nations than Hartley, so based on this six nations i'm guessing you'll be saying Hartley shouldnt be playing Int rugby either?

Either we are at a serious low point for hookers throwing as I have seen Hartley, Youngs, Webber, hibbard, Best, Ford, Szarsewski, Kayser, Du Plessis, Brits, Mealamu and Hore have some shockers. The Aussies seem to be able to throw but unable to scrum.

Or throwing has never been all that great.

For the Austrailians, mate, I think it is a bit of the Aussie Rules Footy thing. They can jump like Kangaroos in the lineout. But they scrummage like Kangaroos, too.

nathan wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It is the weakest part of his game and he will work on it, not sure it's a major issue though. given these days both hookers will play the match 60 40 or a touch more towards half half is it a reason not to start him? A crucial lineout could happen any time?

I wouldn't have him involved all tbh. A hooker with a poor throw shouldn't be playing Int rugby.

Well he had a better record this 6 nations than Hartley, so based on this six nations i'm guessing you'll be saying Hartley shouldnt be playing Int rugby either?

Hartley had a poor 6N by his standards. Last year he barely missed a throw, it's the exception for him to be off where it's the norm with Youngs.

He's no where near as bad as you're making out and the rest of his game is excellent. He seems to have got to grips with the new scrums now as well after initially looking a bit dodgy.

He is just one of these players I can't get to grips with 7&1/2, we all have them I imagine.

fair enough. I think he's a step down from Hartley but for me there's daylight to the next hooker at the moment. I can turn a blind eye to any mishaps at the lineout if he continues to have the impact he has had recently outside of that facet of the game.

Hartley had a poor 6 nations.

Of course I am biased but Jamie George needs to be brought into the squad as 3rd choice hooker. Had another good game on the weekend vs Quins.

Looking forward to seeing what the 4 English clubs can do vs their European rivals.

Bit biased but I think the chances of English clubs winning go in this order:

1.Saracens
2.Bath
3.Wasps
4.Saints

Reasoning behind this - Saracens have beaten Racing Metro 3 times outside England in their recent encounters - in Brussels,Nantes and Paris. Arguably the form team in the AP, pretty close to full strength, best recent record of the English sides left in the competition.

Leinster are not as strong as they used to be - the returning Bath internationals will bolster confidence. Their win over Toulouse will give them belief.

Wasps were unlucky vs Saints. Toulon might be complacent. Wasps have nothing to lose as the heavy underdogs.

Saints have been lucky in recent weeks - they have picked up the draw vs Gloucester and win Wasps but the ref decisions have gone their way. Saints in my opinion are not currently firing at all cylinders - going to one of the toughest venues is hard enough when in form let alone when you're not. Also the loss of North will hurt too.

No 7&1/2 wrote:fair enough. I think he's a step down from Hartley but for me there's daylight to the next hooker at the moment. I can turn a blind eye to any mishaps at the lineout if he continues to have the impact he has had recently outside of that facet of the game.

I just can't go with a player who can't do his primary role to a decent standard. Hooker throwing, prop scrummaging etc

Ok. Just a simple case of disagreeing what decent is!

Haha....yea I suppose, decent Int is different to decent AP.

Indeed there is, a big jump in the quality of some lineouts you'd face at international level. I would say Youngs is more than decent in the prem and Europe but that's more a case for the Tigers fans as I ain't seen every one of their games.

You don't know how good someone like Jamie George is at international level unless you try him.

England do need more depth at hooker as Hartley had a poor 6 nations and Youngs still has question marks over his throwing.

Youngs for whatever reason has simply not been effective at throwing as he is for Leicester.

The biggest worry is 7 though. Who replaces Robshaw if he's injured?

He's more than solid in the AP, it's just the step up he can't seem to cope with (lineout wise). It's a shame as I do like him as a player outside of the set peice.

You're more likely to see Webber than George if there's an injury I think. Maybe after the world cup but can't see him getting a chance before.

7 would most likely be a Wood and Haskell, maybe Kvesic if one of them drop too?

no 7 & 1/2 why though George is arguably the form hooker in the AP.

If Slade can be talked up as a 12 option don't see why George can't be considered at hooker.

Slade also doesn't have the European champions cup to make a case.

I like George but the options at hooker are more established than a position such as 12 which is why I feel he'll be relying on one of the 3 getting injured, suspended etc. Someone like Slade is a roll of the dice to see what he can do in an area which hasn't been doing great. Hartley, Youngs and to a lesser extent Webber haven't been too much of a cause for concern and i don't think George has as yet made an outstanding case to be considered above certainly the first 2.

Slade isn't ready.

He's hardly played any rugby at 12 and is still a bit hit and miss at AP level. I think the WC is a little too soon for him.

I'd like to see him get a warm up game see what he can show, if not back to Twelvetrees and Barritt. He's got everything you need to succeed in my eyes.

Yea possibly, although a Ford/Slade/JJ axis lacks physicality

Disagree.

Hartley had a poor 6 nations. Youngs' throwing is questioned. I wouldn't say their spots are completely secure.

Didn't Webber struggle for the Saxons?

I don't think Slade has done anything outstanding to be above the others.

Slade's prospects will hinge on how well he performs against the strongest sides in the AP - he is getting that chance now as Exeter have a tough run in.


Barritt,Burrell and Twelvetrees all much more experienced than Slade. All three have performed well for England at times. Highlight for Barritt was the try vs the ABs and the warrior spirit in the AIs. Highlight for Twelvetrees his performance vs Scotland a couple of years ago. Burrell was excellent in last year's 6 nations.

To be honest I don't see much difference. I think centre is no weaker than hooker.


Hopefully we'll see Roberts vs Barritt this weekend - that will be a cracking battle. The bulldozer vs the defensive warrior.

Hopefully we'll see Roberts vs Barritt this weekend - that will be a cracking battle. The bulldozer vs the defensive warrior

I don't think barritt gets enough credit for his actual carrying / crashball. He hits the contact at full pace...one of our only players to do that.

Barritt should be our 12 in the WC.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Slade isn't ready.

He's hardly played any rugby at 12 and is still a bit hit and miss at AP level. I think the WC is a little too soon for him.

that is my main worry - we kind of assume that as a 10 who has played 13 he can cover 12. Slade looked solid defensively against us at 13 at the start of the season and has been getting rave reviews at 10 since the turn of the year. This weekend was not a good day for him as his kicking went awry and at times he was struggling with how slow his own back row were to support.

Sam Hill has been consistently good against us.

Londontiger that's the problem. Slade was taking on one of the stronger teams.

You think the likes of Wasps,Saracens and Saints are going to be easy opponents for him in the next few weeks? Could make or break him depending on how he does.

Slade has the skills to play 12 even if he hasn't played there much. He's been identified, he's around the squad, could well be worth the risk. Barritt won't let us down, neither will twelvetrees despite him not being everyone's cup of tea, but Slade has something special. He'll be in the England team sooner or later, 12 offers him the opportunity for that chance to be sooner.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Hopefully we'll see Roberts vs Barritt this weekend - that will be a cracking battle. The bulldozer vs the defensive warrior

I don't think barritt gets enough credit for his actual carrying / crashball. He hits the contact at full pace...one of our only players to do that.

Barritt should be our 12 in the WC.

Yeah, he ran a cracking line (at speed) against Aus/Sa? in the Autumn.

I'd be happy to see Barritt in at 12 too.

My main emotion with regard to England is one of frustration - they are not that far from being a good team.

Launchbury, Morgan, Manu, and Wilson would help, as would an in form Care (and Farrell, though Ford should still remain first choice).  Still undecided about Barritt -  I can see what he brings, but also what he lacks (one of my concerns is that he wouldn't attract attention - hence the defence can just focus on Joesph or Ford).

Annoyed/frustrated that Slade wasn't given a few minutes in the 6N's (if even just to write him out of the picture).

England only in patches seem to play near their potential, and perhaps their biggest problem is when faced by the top teams.  Is that just experience and maturity?

CB,

Launchbury, Morgan, Manu, and Wilson would help, as would an in form Care (and Farrell, though Ford should still remain first choice).

I don't think any of the pack played badly that warrants Wilson, or Morgan to be "missed" though Launchbury is a definite if he's back and fully fit. Cole and Vunipola were excellent...but I agree Morgan is a cracking player. Id consider Vunipola on at 6...now that would have some carrying capability! But Billy still gives you a great workrate.  

6 Vunipola
7 Robshaw / Wood
8 Morgan

Still undecided about Barritt -  I can see what he brings, but also what he lacks (one of my concerns is that he wouldn't attract attention - hence the defence can just focus on Joesph or Ford).

Barritt is a very competent crash ball runner...and while he is much maligned, if defenders focus totally on Ford and Joseph then Barritt will make ground crashing the ball through. I think that would be a nice balanced midfield.

Slade may well be a more talented player etc, but he needs to nail one position...and if its 12 then he needs to be playing there. which he isn't at the moment.

I would however give him some gametime in the warm ups as he may be a very interesting squad / bench member. Espeically if Manu isn't fit, which seems to be constantly these days.

Are we all getting a little carried away with Barritt because he hasn't played for England for a while and Burrell was so poor?

Barritt is an average player, every one seems to have rose tinted glasses on when they look back on him as he was some times pretty good, pretty poor, pretty pedestrian across his England career so far. Yes that game was good against Australia, but then they were sooooo poor that he only had to tackle people and he got rave reviews.


I think the expectation is getting a bit OTT now for him.

No.

He is a bit average.

It's just that all the other sad lot of ICs are even more averager.

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

God help us.

Yappy,

Im not getting carried away and im not building him up OTT...its just ive not seen anything in any of the others to impress me. AND defensively at times we were disjointed.

Ford and Joseph offer the attacking threat so why is it so hard to have Barritt in there as the general to control things.

Slade may well be the next Tim Horan (or whoever) but at the moment until he fulfils that...or even plays at 12 we have to be utterly realistic that our 12s all have pro's and cons..and to give balance I think barritt is the best option.

Considering we scored 18 tries in the 6 Nations and Burrell scored none of them, it was our defence that cost us the championship -  3 tries in from Italy and 4 from France while the other three teams only scored 1 each. I think having a more defensive minded player like Barritt wouldn't be a bad thing in an intense, short competition like the World Cup.

yappysnap wrote:Are we all getting a little carried away with Barritt because he hasn't played for England for a while and Burrell was so poor?

Barritt is an average player, every one seems to have rose tinted glasses on when they look back on him as he was some times pretty good, pretty poor, pretty pedestrian across his England career so far. Yes that game was good against Australia, but then they were sooooo poor that he only had to tackle people and he got rave reviews.


I think the expectation is getting a bit OTT now for him.

My thoughts is that yes he is an average player, but a player whose strengths really complement those of Ford and Joseph. 

We know he is a competent player with decent hands and good defense. He is also a good defensive organizer. He isn't going to set the world alight with his attacking prowess but with Ford and Joseph either side he doesn't have to be, and he will truck the ball up.

yappysnap wrote:Are we all getting a little carried away with Barritt because he hasn't played for England for a while and Burrell was so poor?

Barritt is an average player, every one seems to have rose tinted glasses on when they look back on him as he was some times pretty good, pretty poor, pretty pedestrian across his England career so far. Yes that game was good against Australia, but then they were sooooo poor that he only had to tackle people and he got rave reviews.


I think the expectation is getting a bit OTT now for him.

Yappysnap I am sorry but that's rubbish.

Barritt wouldn't be consistently picked for one of the top clubs in Europe if he was average.

You call Barritt average. To score a try vs the ABs and be influential in victory over them is far from average.

How many inside centres can say they've done that?

Barritt is a leader, when he is picked his respective team gets a boost in morale.

When England beat Ireland in Ireland (something England failed miserably at this year), Barritt turned one of the best centres in the world, BOD into a bystander.

http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/new-zealand-countries/autumn-international-player-analysis-brad-barritt-englands-mr-reliable-40654


Barritt is not Greenwood but that shouldn't count against him. He's a player that works well with the right balance in the backline.


England badly missed the leadership and organisation that they needed vs Ireland. Barritt gives you that.

When Barritt played against Wales he turned a 2nd choice flanker into a WC midfielder.

When was that no 7 & 1/2 ? If you are talking about 2013 you are wrong.

Brown got destroyed twice by Cuthbert because he was a full back on the wing.

beshocked wrote:
Barritt wouldn't be consistently picked for one of the top clubs in Europe if he was average.

Sorry you cannot use that argument whilst also moaning about how often Sarries pick Chris Wyles at 12.

Londontiger I guess that's true but Wyles is only picked at 12 as a stand in for an injured Barritt or Duncan Taylor.

Barritt is a good player, great defence, solid basics and ok pace. He could play the role of enabler for England, allowing others around him to shine. He's also a handy bloke to have at the breakdown, and having backs acting as auxillary forwards when the game breaks up is extremely useful.

I would personally have Barritt in the England side ahead of Twelvetrees, but I'm not convinced that England are done with Burrell at 12, and the next experiment once he's fit will no doubt be Tuilagi at 12.

It's such a problem position for England.

Of all the inside centres Lancaster has shown, none of them has displayed the brilliance of Greenwood in attack (though that's a very high bar to reach). Twelvetrees has probably come closest in his best moments - but only sporadically and he's prone to trying too hard or fading out of games.

Barritt has made fewer mistakes than any of the other candidates and is the most reliable in defence. He isn't likely to create much, but he is able to consistently fix his man and release the players outside him. The big gap in his skill set is the lack of a kicking option.

That probably puts him consistently ahead of Burrell (same skill set, not as effective) and Twelvetrees (inconsistent) when fit and in form.

The main alternative - however much people don't like it - is probably Farrell at 12, if he can find form and fitness. He adds a second kicking option, is a proven international, he and Ford have played in that combination before and he doesn't give away much in defence. It's not ideal but given what Lancaster wants and the lack of candidates putting their hands up, there aren't many alternatives...

Poorfour I don't understand the obsession with a kicking option.

Are 12s in general famed for their kicking?

Why are England so obsessed with a playmaker at 12?

A backline is all about balance.

With Farrell at 10 perhaps you need someone more creative than Barritt but with Ford at 10, Joseph at 13, I don't see any harm putting England's best defensive leader at 12.

Farrell at 12? Not convinced.

beshocked wrote:When was that no 7 & 1/2 ? If you are talking about 2013 you are wrong.

Brown got destroyed twice by Cuthbert because he was a full back on the wing.

Just thought he may have offered some of the leadership then. And again when he was on for France last year. Just saying you cant to Ireland results and ignore others in regards leadership etc as he didnt step up. Hes a damn good player but it wasnt him we were missing against Ireland.

beshocked wrote:Poorfour I don't understand the obsession with a kicking option.

Are 12s in general famed for their kicking?

Why are England so obsessed with a playmaker at 12?

A backline is all about balance.

With Farrell at 10 perhaps you need someone more creative than Barritt but with Ford at 10, Joseph at 13, I don't see any harm putting England's best defensive leader at 12.

Farrell at 12? Not convinced.

Agreed. Nonu, SBW, Roberts, Henshaw, Dunbar, JDV - none of those guys you would describe as a "playmaker" or offering an effective kicking option. It does seem to be a very English thing. Fine if you have a Tim Horan knocking about, but no need to start shoe horning fly halves into the 12 channel.

I think he may go well, but I don't think he's any where near as good as people claim and with him at 12 that means all the attacking needs to come from 10 or 13, so not really any different to Burrell then, we're not really moving forward picking Barrett just sideways.

Oh and for all his always getting picked at club and how we missed him for country. Sarries haven't really won much with him there, and England did no better with him playing in the last few years then they did without him! Oh no wait they scored a Poopie load more...

Personally I don't think Barritt missing was the reason for the Ireland defeat...it was different altogether.

Yappy

and with him at 12 that means all the attacking needs to come from 10 or 13, so not really any different to Burrell then, we're not really moving forward picking Barrett just sideways

I agree with that but I think the point is that Burrell didn't stand up in any area of the game, like he did last season. Barritt may just be a sideways move but he will command that defence. He will keep the young lads organised more than Burrell.

Him and Farrell at 10 is simply not create enough, but with Ford and Joseph, and hopefully an inform Youngs at 9 its different as you have 3 players who can attack. It leaves Barritt to do what he does best.

We need balance..and I just feel of the options we have at 12 he provides the best balance.

I would love to have an all singing all dancing 12, be it Slade, Eastmond, Twelvetrees finally clicking permanently or whoever....but we just don't have that luxury at the moment and wont come the world cup. We have to go with the best balanced midfield in that case.

This is what is causing the debate. Some want Twelvetrees, some think give Burrell more time...others think Barritt.

This backline looks nicely balanced with the options we have.

9 Youngs / Care
10 Ford
11 Nowell
12 Barritt
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown

That's without considering, Wade, May, Ashton, Eastmond, Manu returning and without having seen Slade played at this level.

Barrit was 12 when we beat, new Zealand, it was an immense all round performance, he's the best for now and hes probably the best defensive 12 in the world #injuryrisk, agree with attacking players around him he comes into his own, certainly has limitations but far better than 6twigs, or loofa b. Kyle sadly is still unknown as played outside a woefully out of form minifaz, despite his attacking gifts I fear against teams like sauf afrikka he wouldnt have enough ramming speed

Twelvetrees looked good in his cameos to be fair, which is better then Barrett has done recently, we're all working off form from 5 months ago when we talk about him.

Has any one thought that perhaps with attacking players at 10 and 13 now, Twelvetrees doesn't feel like he has to make every thing happen himself? He can relax a bit and just do his natural game rather then try to make something amazing happen with every touch.

If Manu gets fit, I'd like to see how he and Joseph go for a couple of the warm ups and the Fiji game. A bonus point against Fiji may end up crucial, so if it ends up 50-30 so be it.

But I think our defence is an area that needs to be addressed and if Tuilagi isn't fit or a Tuilagi/Joseph partnership is found wanting defensively then I would bring back Barritt no question for the second game of the WC. We scored tries with Burrell contributing absolutely nothing to the attack, so as long as Barritt can match that did improve the defence so be it. We'll be a better, more balanced team for it.

For me, the only other option at 12 I'd consider (were everyone fit) would be Burgess, but that would require Slammin' Sam to really turn up for Bath's run in and the warm-ups too.

The trouble is we've got 3 games to the World Cup and six or seven options at 12.

yappysnap wrote:Twelvetrees looked good in his cameos to be fair, which is better then Barrett has done recently, we're all working off form from 5 months ago when we talk about him.

Has any one thought that perhaps with attacking players at 10 and 13 now, Twelvetrees doesn't feel like he has to make every thing happen himself? He can relax a bit and just do his natural game rather then try to make something amazing happen with every touch.

Having just watched the Gloucester v Connacht match, if that is his natural attacking game I hope we don't see it again for England.  Some truly terrible decision making and execution with the ball, turning the ball over to the opposition a number of times, plus 5 missed tackles.  Rather than pushing on from his early promise I think he might have actually gone backwards in the last couple of seasons, particularly his kicking from hand (if that's what a kicking 12 looks like, we don't need it), about the only area he's improved in is his rucking and breakdown work.  Speaking of which, Kvesic had another good game, everywhere on the pitch, plenty of turnovers, most tackles for either side, most defenders beaten, 2nd only to May for metres, and some nice offloads and interplay.

Ford appears to be becoming a real star. A complete 10 with no obvious weakness - yes a young man who will make mistakes on occasion but the game today he shone as the best player on the pitch. His rise has meant I now have England back as favourites ( maybe joint with NZ)