England's Six Nations finish was "unacceptable" says Ian Ritchie

Well, well, Ian Ritchie is not a happy bunny, "We should be, as a country, winning more, in terms of whether it's Grand Slams or Six Nations Championships." is what he is saying, do you agree with him ? Winning one championship in the last decade is not enough, and for a country the size of England you have to agree with him.


http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/32035225

Height of arrogance if you ask me. Since 1881 Wales have played England and they have a huge 2 games over us! What makes him think things should change now LOL

If we dont accept it does that mean we get to appeal the decision to award Ireland the title? 

Whats he saying here, we ought to try and win all the games. Im pretty sure they do it anyway. 

Pointless.

Here we go. Yet more people choosing to get all offended by something that was not actually said.

Go listen to the interview rather than believe an inaccurate headline.

We didn't win. What's he expected to say? No story.

Just after reading that.  If I was an English fan I'd be in a mood to tell him to shut his mouth or lace up his boots.

Talk about being hit when you're down, by your own boss, of the suited variety.... no blood, sweat, toil or tears but laying it down like he was the coach.

I don't think English players or coaches deserve a word of that rubbish.  Everyone gets angry.  But his role isn't to make it public.  If he's angry then go punch a wall in his own home and get over it.  His players did the work, his players lit up the tournament, his players put their bodies on the line, his players put fancy bums in corporate seats, his players suffered the emotions of defeat after a breath-taking game.
Lancaster himself should publically reply and defend his players from that public dressing down crap.

oh PS: I'm referring to a more detailed quote from another source... not that brief BBC one.

LordDowlais wrote:Well, well, Ian Ritchie is not a happy bunny, "We should be, as a country, winning more, in terms of whether it's Grand Slams or Six Nations Championships."  is what he is saying, do you agree with him ? Winning one championship in the last decade is not enough, and for a country the size of England you have to agree with him.


http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/32035225

In which rugby is a minority sport, not a religion as it is in one or two other nations.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Well, well, Ian Ritchie is not a happy bunny, "We should be, as a country, winning more, in terms of whether it's Grand Slams or Six Nations Championships."  is what he is saying, do you agree with him ? Winning one championship in the last decade is not enough, and for a country the size of England you have to agree with him.


http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/32035225

In which rugby is a minority sport, not a religion as it is in one or two other nations.

Hahahaha that's your excuse now is it

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Well, well, Ian Ritchie is not a happy bunny, "We should be, as a country, winning more, in terms of whether it's Grand Slams or Six Nations Championships."  is what he is saying, do you agree with him ? Winning one championship in the last decade is not enough, and for a country the size of England you have to agree with him.


http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/32035225

In which rugby is a minority sport, not a religion as it is in one or two other nations.

What as that got to do with anything ?

If it's "unacceptable" then presumably he (as head honcho) has to make changes? If he doesn't then that implies being a perennial runner-up is acceptable.

So is he just another hot air merchant who hasn't a clue how to lead and run the show or will he put his money where his mouth is?

If he has no notion of sacking Lancaster, then surely a public utterance to support him in this important year would have been the order of the day. OTOH if he truly means what he says surely someone's head must roll?

LordDowlais wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Well, well, Ian Ritchie is not a happy bunny, "We should be, as a country, winning more, in terms of whether it's Grand Slams or Six Nations Championships."  is what he is saying, do you agree with him ? Winning one championship in the last decade is not enough, and for a country the size of England you have to agree with him.


http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/32035225

In which rugby is a minority sport, not a religion as it is in one or two other nations.

What as that got to do with anything ?

Well, participation is more important than total population.

(don't know why I needed to point that out).

It may be a minority sport (which I don't accept - less popular than football perhaps, but hardly a "minority" sport) but England still have far more registered players to pick from than any other nation. On one hand you boast about your massive strength in depth. On the other hand you cry "minority sport". You can't have it both ways. For a nation which has the resources, both human and financial, of England you have to accept that you under achieve.

Using the word 'you' and then picking a variety of opinions, likely from different people is hardly convincing.

Nonetheless, England probably should have won it more often on balance.

Scarpia, that is exactly what I was meaning, even as a supposedly minority sport in England it is still bigger than a majority sport in Wales. Do England have massive strength on depth or not ?

LordDowlais wrote:Scarpia, that is exactly what I was meaning, even as a supposedly minority sport in England it is still bigger than a majority sport in Wales. Do England have massive strength on depth or not ?

Gee, this has never been debated before has it

rainbow-warrior wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Well, well, Ian Ritchie is not a happy bunny, "We should be, as a country, winning more, in terms of whether it's Grand Slams or Six Nations Championships."  is what he is saying, do you agree with him ? Winning one championship in the last decade is not enough, and for a country the size of England you have to agree with him.


http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/32035225

In which rugby is a minority sport, not a religion as it is in one or two other nations.

Hahahaha that's your excuse now is it

Ha Haaaaaaaa!!!!!
If it's a minority sport in England it barely counts as a sport in Ireland with Football, Hurling and Soccerball being miles ahead of the oval balled game.

And the person stating rugby is a minority sport in England is Irish, not English, unless I'm very much mistaken

Rugby is very much a minority sport in England and the majority of those who do play do so to keep fit and have a few beers - let's just say it's very social. Wales on the other hand is defined by its rugby, as is NZ, but the kiwis are different in that they haven't totally under-achieved.

SecretFly wrote:Just after reading that.  If I was an English fan I'd be in a mood to tell him to shut his mouth or lace up his boots.

Talk about being hit when you're down, by your own boss, of the suited variety.... no blood, sweat, toil or tears but laying it down like he was the coach.

I don't think English players or coaches deserve a word of that rubbish.  Everyone gets angry.  But his role isn't to make it public.  If he's angry then go punch a wall in his own home and get over it.  His players did the work, his players lit up the tournament, his players put their bodies on the line, his players put fancy bums in corporate seats, his players suffered the emotions of defeat after a breath-taking game.
Lancaster himself should publically reply and defend his players from that public dressing down crap.

oh PS: I'm referring to a more detailed quote from another source... not that brief BBC one.

Absolutely agree, Fly. Very poor form from Richie, and not acceptable coming from the RFU chief, especially in a World Cup year.

Lancaster will be fuming. Well he would if he had emotions like the rest of us.

I think he's right, in that England have been the most consistent side over the past four years and not won anything. They've won 16 out of 20 games, beaten the All Blacks, beaten Australia and have nothing to show for it. In the last four championship Wales have won 16 games and won two championships, Ireland have won 11 games and won two championships (admittedly there's been a huge improvement from Ireland in the last two years compared to 2012 and 2013).

The reason England have fallen short is that they have failed to do the things that are in their control. They've lost decisively in some of the big games that would bring them Slams away to Wales and Ireland, they have had chances to stretch the points difference and failed to do so. They haven't been accurate enough, they haven't been clinical enough or handled the big championship deciding moments well enough. The RFU and the England coaches and players are right to be dissatisfied.

It's a feeling Ireland fans know all too well, you're just like us from 2004 and 2007. Maybe slightly more successful but consistently flattering to deceive and never quite nailing the championship moments is very reminiscent of Ireland under Eddie O'Sullivan. Consistently very good but just not quite good enough.

I just hope your World Cup goes better than Irelands did after that run of second places and what ifs

Munchkin wrote:Lancaster will be fuming. Well he would if he had emotions like the rest of us.

Lancaster reacted furiously, a tolerant smile coming over his face as he bought a round for everyone at the bar.

i agree with Ritchie that coming second 4 times in a row is not acceptable.

the reaction from players and coaches alike after the 20 point vicory over france left us short, tells you that they agree.

complete non-story.

excuse for the usual stone throwers to work themselves into a frenzy...LD, Munchkin, rainbow, aukster

carry on by all means

If you look purely at 1st places yes it's not good enough. Actually look at the results and tables and it's about where we deserve to be. I personally don't think that scoring a try more last year and this would mean the quality of the team is much better.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:Rugby is very much a minority sport in England and the majority of those who do play do so to keep fit and have a few beers - let's just say it's very social. Wales on the other hand is defined by its rugby, as is NZ, but the kiwis are different in that they haven't totally under-achieved.

How have Wales underachieved ? Three Grand Slams, and a championship and a semi final in a world cup in a decade is pretty good going if you ask me.

quinsforever wrote:excuse for the usual stone throwers to work themselves into a frenzy...LD, Munchkin, rainbow, aukster

Hey, don't blame me, I am only repeating what your head honcho has said. Is he a stone thrower as well ?

every member of the england team, coaching team, and fans would all agree that 4 second places and no silverware is not acceptable

complete non-story

ritchie in this instance is merely a fact-stater

quinsforever wrote:i agree with Ritchie that coming second 4 times in a row is not acceptable.

the reaction from players and coaches alike after the 20 point vicory over france left us short, tells you that they agree.

complete non-story.

excuse for the usual stone throwers to work themselves into a frenzy...LD, Munchkin, rainbow, aukster

carry on by all means

I take exception to that, Quins. I am not a stone thrower....


...... unless they're directed at you

Notch wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Lancaster will be fuming. Well he would if he had emotions like the rest of us.

Lancaster reacted furiously, a tolerant smile coming over his face as he bought a round for everyone at the bar.

Just about sums up my perception of him, Notch. He won't be losing any sleep over it.

sorry munchkin, them's not stones...

them's taters...

Notch wrote:I think he's right, in that England have been the most consistent side over the past four years and not won anything. They've won 16 out of 20 games, beaten the All Blacks, beaten Australia and have nothing to show for it. In the last four championship Wales have won 16 games and won two championships, Ireland have won 11 games and won two championships (admittedly there's been a huge improvement from Ireland in the last two years compared to 2012 and 2013).

The reason England have fallen short is, they have failed to do the things that are in their control. They've lost decisively in some of the big games that would bring them Slams away to Wales and Ireland, they have had chances to stretch the points difference and failed to do so. They haven't been accurate enough, they haven't been clinical enough or handled the big championship deciding moments well enough. The RFU and the England coaches and players are right to be dissatisfied.

It's a feeling Ireland fans know all too well, you're just like us from 2004 and 2007. Maybe slightly more successful but consistently flattering to deceive and never quite nailing the championship moments is very reminiscent of Ireland under Eddie O'Sullivan. Consistently very good but just not quite good enough.

I just hope your World Cup goes better than Irelands did after that run of second places and what ifs

100% agree. Its the small margins this England team just cant swing their way.

England are expecting far too much of 23 - 25 year olds, both in their performance on the pitch and their ability to bring through even younger players. England have a 'missing generation' of players, and that is down to the management at the top from 2003-2009. If Ian Ritchie/ RFU want to be critical - they should point the finger at themselves first.

He is just peed off that England didn't win the 4m top prize! And who could blame him.

I think England will do very well in the world cup - young George Ford & JJ now have the experience of a difficult and disappointing 6Ns that will stand to them. With Lawes back they have a very good pack.

England has the strength 'n depth that Ireland and Wales don't have.

Also, I'd imagine Mr Richie is very worried with how the game is going in England when he sees what has happened to France when there is a lot of money in the game.

For the record, the Irish players are paid the least for winning the tournament.

Bonuses mean Ireland players will earn €44,000 if they win the Six Nations

The England squad will share a bonus of almost £370,000 if they win the RBS Six Nations title on Saturday as part of a potential shared jackpot of more than £2 million.

England are favourites to win the championship as they go into the final round at the top of the Six Nations table, ahead of Ireland and Wales on points difference, with each of the three sides having won three games and lost one.

Stuart Lancaster’s side, who face France at Twickenham on Saturday, enjoy a points-difference advantage of four over of Ireland, who travel to Murrayfield to face Scotland, and 25 on Wales, who play Italy in Rome.

England, who have not lost a Six Nations match at Twickenham since being beaten by Wales in February 2012, also have the advantage of playing France in the final match of ‘Super Saturday’ so that Lancaster’s side will have the benefit of knowing exactly what they have to do to win the trophy.

Should England go on to clinch what would be their first Six Nations title since 2011, it would trigger a Rugby Football Union bonus payment of £368,000 to be shared between the 23-man squad on a pro-rata basis, equating to a bonus of £16,000 for any player who has been in every match-day squad.

That performance-related bonus (a Grand Slam would have been worth £600,000) comes on top of individual match fees of just over £15,000 per player in the match-day squad. The £15,000 is broken down roughly into a £7,000 match fee, £7,000 for image rights and a £1,000 training fee as part of a deal that makes England the best-paid players in world rugby.

The latest pay agreement dispenses with previous rewards for one-off victories, with an increased match fee and tournament win bonus reflecting the desire to reward sustained success. Any player who has played in every match of the championship would be in line for a total payment of £91,000 if England were to clinch the championship on Saturday – a total Rugby Football Union payout of £2,093,000.

When England last won the Six Nations, in 2011, each player was on a match fee of £8,000, topped up by a win bonus of £4,000. The squad bonus on offer for winning the Grand Slam was £500,000, with the title win thought to be worth half that.

England’s current payment structure contrasts that of Wales and Ireland, who both have either large win bonuses per match or a more lucrative squad bonus for winning the title. Wales are understood to pay their players a match fee of £5,300 per game, with an image-rights payment of £1,500 per player per campaign, but the squad win bonus on offer is much higher than England’s, with £1,035,000 on offer should Warren Gatland’s side take the title. That equates to a bonus of £45,000 per player which, on top of match fees of £26,500, would give each Wales player a total payment of £71,500.

Should Joe Schmidt’s side win the Six Nations, it is understood the Ireland players will share an extra squad bonus of €230,000, equating to a total of €44,000 for those players who have been in every match-day squad of the championship.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/bonuses-mean-ireland-players-will-earn-44000-if-they-win-the-six-nations-31078229.html

Do they still get the big tax breaks though?

quinsforever wrote:sorry munchkin, them's not stones...

them's taters...

Aye, but they're frozen

I don't think the finishing 2nd is such a big deal, especially when it is by such tight points difference. Last year, if the pitch at Murrayfield hadn't been like the Somme we could have had a much bigger winning margin, and this year we had several 'nearly but not quite' moments including iirc 5 tries disallowed for either interference or forward passes (with the Easter obstruction v Wales and the Nowell non-try at the end v Ireland being more questionable than the others). Do these decisions going the other way make us a substantially better side?

Of more concern is that we have consistently lost one match in each 6Ns - while Ireland this year and Wales in 2013 were disappointing performances, last year's loss to France now looks like the biggest lost opportunity to take the Slam.

And looking at the AI results suggests we are playing to a level of being about 4th best - consistently poorer than NZ and SA, and marginally behind whichever of our NH rivals is in the best form at the time.

It seems that unlike many England fans who have been consistent in their support of coming 2nd, the governing body of English rugby is not deluding itself.

Meh - the 6N is ok in an old-fashioned, bragging-rights way. Reminds me a bit of fights in the playground. It's the RWC that counts. I simply won't accept not winning it.

Gwlad wrote:It seems that unlike many England fans who have been consistent in their support of coming 2nd, the governing body of English rugby is not deluding itself.

When England fans are happy with second they are deluded. When they aren't they are arrogant.

If they haven't expressed an opinion? Lets give them one and call them arrogant for it. Sorted.

Gooseberry wrote:Do they still get the big tax breaks though?

They still get tax breaks which are:

40% of Tax Paid (excluding image rights, sponsorships etc) on their 10 best years provided they retire in the EU.

A year in Japan would cover that!

Sin é wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Do they still get the big tax breaks though?

They still get tax breaks which are:

40% of Tax Paid (excluding image rights, sponsorships etc) on their 10 best years provided they retire in the EU.

A year in Japan would cover that!

Right so although they get the lowest win bonus in theory its value is proportionately higher. I bet Nick Easter is aware to a penny of how much tax hes saved by seeing his go down the toilet again.

Ireland player bonus is 44K which they will pay about 18K tax (except Sexton who will pay his tax in France) which they will get back about 40% of which means the bonus is worth about Euro50K when comparing to England and Wales. England players get £91K
Welsh players would have got £71K.

Sin é wrote:Ireland player bonus is 44K which they will pay about 18K tax (except Sexton who will pay his tax in France) which they will get back about 40% of which means the bonus is worth about Euro50K when comparing to England and Wales. England players get £91K
Welsh players would have got £71K.

I'm failing to see what this has to do with this thread?

nathan wrote:

Sin é wrote:Ireland player bonus is 44K which they will pay about 18K tax (except Sexton who will pay his tax in France) which they will get back about 40% of which means the bonus is worth about Euro50K when comparing to England and Wales. England players get £91K
Welsh players would have got £71K.

I'm failing to see what this has to do with this thread?

Gooseberry asked about the tax breaks which came out of the article about winning the 6Ns which would be worth 4m to the winner which is probably what Richie is really peed off about.

What would he say?  "acceptable to come 2nd again, well done good luck for next time"?

He's bang on.  If England had been well beaten in say three games he might be less frustrated, but England were so close. Outsmarted by Ireland, started poorly against Italy, didn't take chances against Scotland and let a terrible French team score 35 points.

With huge resources and strength in depth - it's still not clicking at the crucial times.  As a Welsh fan I have moderate expectations that are sometimes exceeded.  If I was an English fan I would probably be more frustrated as England are so nearly a very, very good team.  They should be European champions more often than not.

Ritchie never said that coming second was unacceptable. He merely said it was not acceptable for a county with England's playing resources to have only won one championship in a decade.

Now seeing as that one win was with a 4-1 record, it would be churlish to say that 2011 was good and 2015 bad.



As to his sentiment being driven by the prize money - hogwash. The difference between 2nd place prize money and 1st place is less than the bonus money that woudl have been paid. So actually the RFU would have been out of pocket if England had scored 6 points more (or conceded 6 less).

offload wrote:As a Welsh fan I have moderate expectations that are sometimes exceeded.  If I was an English fan I would probably be more frustrated as England are so nearly a very, very good team.  They should be European champions more often than not.

Well how often have England ever been especially good? In my time the 1980 GS was an aberration, otherwise we were dire - but at least we turned up.

Geoff Cooke's team (inherited and ruined by Rowell) were the best in Europe for 5 years.

Woodward's the best in the world for about 12 months and best in Europe for about 4 years.

Hell I want us to win more but my expectation is never high. Murrayfield 1990, Wembley 1999, Murrayfield 2000, Dublin 2001 were much worse than Dublin 2011 and MS 2013 as in the former we were the best team in the Championship and choked.

I wouldn't bother LT

If Ritchie truly believes the situation is unacceptable, and he's not prepared to do anything to make it acceptable other than sound bites then perhaps he should tender his resignation? Isn't he the man responsible for overseeing this unacceptable situation?

He won't of course because he isn't assuming responsibility and he doesn't really mean what he is saying. It's easy to see how he gets on so well with Mark McCafferty.

SecretFly wrote:If I was an English fan I'd be in a mood to tell him to shut his mouth or lace up his boots.

This is putting it mildly. As a non-corporate, work hard for my money, who spent it on sticking one bum in one seat at HQ this Championship, I was delighted to see the display.

Ritchie can do one. The last thing the players need is a suit kicking them when they're down, after they've played their skins off, just before a RWC.

Sorry but England are the biggest fish in the pond by far. Money, sponsors, number of players, facilities, stadia, etc.etc. Its not unreasonable to expect all that to be good enough to come top 'most' of the time. Which basically they don't do. Now, they haven't won the 6Ns for a while and they haven't been No1 in the world ranking since 2003. So yes, Richie is right to lambast the coaches and players because their performance since 2003 has simply not been good enough. End of. No getting away from the truth. England need to try harder, much harder.