England's Six Nations finish was "unacceptable" says Ian Ritchie

First topic message reminder :

Well, well, Ian Ritchie is not a happy bunny, "We should be, as a country, winning more, in terms of whether it's Grand Slams or Six Nations Championships." is what he is saying, do you agree with him ? Winning one championship in the last decade is not enough, and for a country the size of England you have to agree with him.


http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/32035225

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Strange how there's not been an official investigation into the timekeeping of that game, that is the only fact that matters not what the Irish papers say.

The game is there.

No 7&1/2 wrote:What was the result then Fly?

'Six Nations officials are investigating the possibility that more than two minutes of additional time was accidentally added into the second half of Ireland’s 19-9 win over England at the Aviva Stadium on Sunday.

A Six Nations source admitted to The Irish Times that “there was a problem with the synchronising of the timing” and that at one point “it got out of sync”, although he maintained that this error may have been corrected.'

What came of it?

The game is there. No correction. I looked at it - in detail. I looked at it in detail because, like now, I was told it was all just an Irish make-up by the Irish Independent. So I said to myself I'd do the research. And I did. The clock kicked in a full two minutes after the ref had restarted the game after Henshaws try. When it restarted it was not reset to compensate for the lost two minutes. And it never changed from that point to the end. Two minutes late.

But have you read the about any result of this investigation. The paper is reporting it as it may have been corrected. Probably needs a thread of its own anyway.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It is not a fact, it is a so called fact stated by the Irish and nobody else.

IT - IS - A - FACT.

The game is there.  You're afraid to look at it.  Bury your head.  I don't care.  The evidence is there for eternity.

No official investigation means no problem with the timekeeping, that is a fact.

The fact is the game was over two minutes before it ended. If a game is in play the ref runs it to the conclusion, thus legitimate overruns. That was no legitimate overrun, it was wonky time-keeping and the Six Nations don't want to own up to it.

What gets me is, that this is the same Ian Ritchie that ran the "All England Club", how many years did he put in trying to get any English tennis player into the top 10, never mind to No. 1?

If ever there was a dismal failure English in sport, he ran it. Funny how that now that he has gone, we are in the Davis Cup at top flight, we have players moving up the rankings and into the top 50 regularly challenging and occasionally beating top 10 players.

Before you start critisising others Mr. Ritchie, take a look in the mirror and ask yourself what you have done.

So the answer is no you haven't? So it may have been corrected as stated, excellent. Anyway nowt to do with this thread anyway.

No 7&1/2 wrote:But have you read the about any result of this investigation. The paper is reporting it as it may have been corrected. Probably needs a thread of its own anyway.

The clock wasn't corrected, 7 1/2. I looked at the game after that try in detail. I kept track of all details - delays for players going off, injuries etc. I factored in everything and the game should have ended two minutes before it ended. There was no correction.

Start a thread Fly.

SecretFly wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It is not a fact, it is a so called fact stated by the Irish and nobody else.

IT - IS - A - FACT.

The game is there.  You're afraid to look at it.  Bury your head.  I don't care.  The evidence is there for eternity.

No official investigation means no problem with the timekeeping, that is a fact.

The fact is the game was over two minutes before it ended.  If a game is in play the ref runs it to the conclusion, thus legitimate overruns.  That was no legitimate overrun, it was wonky time-keeping and the Six Nations don't want to own up to it.

Yes of course or you just believe everything you read that favours the Irish, if it was there for all to see then it would have been reported by the media of not just Ireland, you are wrong but say and do whatever you wish to defend the Irish team.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Yes of course or you just believe everything you read that favours the Irish, if it was there for all to see then it would have been reported by the media of not just Ireland, you are wrong but say and do whatever you wish to defend the Irish team.

The game was over. That remains the only fact. I don't care what you or anyone else thinks. The game is recorded. It won't go away

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It is not a fact, it is a so called fact stated by the Irish and nobody else.

IT - IS - A - FACT.

The game is there.  You're afraid to look at it.  Bury your head.  I don't care.  The evidence is there for eternity.

No official investigation means no problem with the timekeeping, that is a fact.

The fact is the game was over two minutes before it ended.  If a game is in play the ref runs it to the conclusion, thus legitimate overruns.  That was no legitimate overrun, it was wonky time-keeping and the Six Nations don't want to own up to it.

Yes of course or you just believe everything you read that favours the Irish, if it was there for all to see then it would have been reported by the media of not just Ireland, you are wrong but say and do whatever you wish to defend the Irish team.

Because it's a non story. Ireland won. If Ireland had lost because of faulty timekeeping - that would have been a story.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Start a thread Fly.

I don't need another thread. Not interested in another thread. But everytime anyone talks about the English 'try' that 'was' or 'wasn't', I'll mention the clock and the extra 2 minutes that 'was' but 'wasn't'.

If that last try is talked about in any thread then a malfunctioning clock can also be mentioned.

The malfunctioning clock is a figment of your imagination and you seem unable to comprehend how stupid it makes you look.

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Start a thread Fly.

I don't need another thread.  Not interested in another thread.  But everytime anyone talks about the English 'try' that 'was' or 'wasn't', I'll mention the clock and the extra 2 minutes that 'was' but 'wasn't'.

If that last try is talked about in any thread then a malfunctioning clock can also be mentioned.

The discussion focused on the ability to create and finish not the end of the game. I'm sure the paper will have printed it if it came out in Ireland's favour. Why don't you post a link to it?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Start a thread Fly.

I don't need another thread.  Not interested in another thread.  But everytime anyone talks about the English 'try' that 'was' or 'wasn't', I'll mention the clock and the extra 2 minutes that 'was' but 'wasn't'.

If that last try is talked about in any thread then a malfunctioning clock can also be mentioned.

The discussion focused on the ability to create and finish not the end of the game. I'm sure the paper will have printed it if it came out in Ireland's favour. Why don't you post a link to it?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It is not a fact, it is a so called fact stated by the Irish and nobody else.

IT - IS - A - FACT.

The game is there.  You're afraid to look at it.  Bury your head.  I don't care.  The evidence is there for eternity.

No official investigation means no problem with the timekeeping, that is a fact.

No that isnt a fact. No official investigation means there was no investigation but not necessarly that there was no issue. That is a fact.

It's like a George Orwell world!

If Big Brother says there is NO Problem with the Clock. Everything was Fine. Move on folks. You didn't see what you saw. Then most of the cowed population agree to believe what Big Brother says.

The game is there. So is the clock. No myth. No mystery. No Big Brother-speak needed. The evidence is there.

Pretty much my point Munchkin, there's an investigation as written by the I Times (was it?). They'll be waiting for the outcome surely. What was the outcome. As quoted by the paper it may have been sorted at the time they didn't know. At best the results haven't come out. Given it was only picked up by the paper as a reposte about a try which should have stood I'm more likely to believe they forgot to print it if it hadn't been true in the end? Maybe I'm being cynical.

There was an investigation Guns.

Back to the point well created and finished try for me!

If you want a picture of the future, imagine a clock stopped at 79:58 - forever.

I think this is more a dig at Lancaster than the players imo.

Guys, take it from me, nobody on here has argued with the Irish about refs and the what not on this site more than me, so let me tell you how it goes:-

1. The Irish are always right
2. Everybody else is always wrong
3. Only the Irish are allowed to complain about a ref
4. It is only an error by the officials if it effects Ireland in a negative way

There you go, this should stop the bickering, let normal service resume, we were talking about somebody called Ian Ritchie weren't we ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Pretty much my point Munchkin, there's an investigation as written by the I Times (was it?). They'll be waiting for the outcome surely. What was the outcome. As quoted by the paper it may have been sorted at the time they didn't know. At best the results haven't come out. Given it was only picked up by the paper as a reposte about a try which should have stood I'm more likely to believe they forgot to print it if it hadn't been true in the end? Maybe I'm being cynical.

There was an investigation Guns.

Back to the point well created and finished try for me!

You are trying to argue that the absence of evidence - no follow-up report in Times (claiming that a nothing is a something) - supports your contentions that no fault was found with the time keeping. When in fact, it's a weak argument. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. However, the burden of proof is on the positive claim, and Fly offers that proof in the recorded minutes of the game. A viewing will either support, or refute, his argument.

If you refuse to review the recording, then you have no argument.

I've always found the Irish to be shocking time-keepers so I'm not sure I trust them on this one

LordDowlais wrote:

There you go, this should stop the bickering, let normal service resume, we were talking about somebody called Ian Ritchie weren't we ?

We were indeed. Lord.

But someone mentioned a ref!

Someone implied that a ref should have called a try as legit

You know how that goes, don't you.......

All I'm saying is there was an official investigation of which I haven't seen the results,  neither has anyone else by the looks of. As the Times reported, it may have been fixed at the time. I doubt it was an issue.

SecretFly wrote:You know how that goes, don't you........

Only too well SF.

Some of you need to get out more. Really you do.

No 7&1/2 wrote:All I'm saying is there was an official investigation of which I haven't seen the results,  neither has anyone else by the looks of. As the Times reported, it may have been fixed at the time. I doubt it was an issue.

I'm declaring it wasn't.  Why can't that point get across to people.  The game is there and so is the clock.  They appear on the same screen - game and clock.  And both are up there in Internet land for everyone to see.  Try Youtube, if you wanted to see a clock not moving for two minutes - and not being reset when it begins again.  
Why do you need an official report to look at the entire evidence with your own eyes?  That's Orwellian, 7 1/2.  

I don't care that people don't choose to believe.  It doesn't matter anymore.  But proof is there, easily accessible.

No 7&1/2 wrote:All I'm saying is there was an official investigation of which I haven't seen the results,  neither has anyone else by the looks of. As the Times reported, it may have been fixed at the time. I doubt it was an issue.

But there's no depth to the above. It's all a maybe. Fly offers hard evidence, and if you refuse to review that evidence then you effectively rule yourself out of the debate. You no longer have a valid argument.

So what was the result of the official investigation?

Cyril wrote:I've always found the Irish to be shocking time-keepers so I'm not sure I trust them on this one

I can vouch for that. Time is usually just a suggestion except when we are playing England because the English are such sticklers for good timekeeping and everything being in proper order.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So what was the result of the official investigation?

The result was that Ireland won and England didnt score any tries so no need to probe any further.

Rather a strange conclusion. You asked yourself about an investigation guns, there was one, what was the result?

How hard were Ireland trying in the 2013 Hamilton test?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Rather a strange conclusion. You asked yourself about an investigation guns, there was one, what was the result?

No I didnt ask about an investigation. I read the report, two extra minutes were added on or rather the ref forgot to restart his watch which resulted in two extra minutes. That much we know. Anything more is just speculation.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So what was the result of the official investigation?

I don't know. There is hard evidence on video replay, so in that sense it's irrelevant.


It isn't as if all findings of investigations are made public knowledge anyway.

Or it may not have resulted in 2 extra minutes as stated in the same report. It was says there would be an official investigation of which no one seems to know the result and are now saying their opinion is the final version. All I'm saying is what officially has been decided. If it hasn;t been reported it's either not complete or doesn't fit the story for the only paper which picked it up?

Gooseberry wrote:How hard were Ireland trying in the 2013 Hamilton test?

Not sure if you posted this on the right thread? Also do you mean the test v NZ in 2012?

That was Ireland's most embarassing day ever in rugby union. No pride shown at all. It was a disgrace.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Or it may not have resulted in 2 extra minutes as stated in the same report. It was says there would be an official investigation of which no one seems to know the result and are now saying their opinion is the final version. All I'm saying is what officially has been decided. If it hasn;t been reported it's either not complete or doesn't fit the story for the only paper which picked it up?

As you say, it may not. Just speculation.

Yes exactly Guns, which is why stating it as fact isn't an option neither should stating it didn't happen until the results of the investigation are available.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes exactly Guns, which is why stating it as fact isn't an option neither should stating it didn't happen until the results of the investigation are available.

No. We know for a fact that extra time was added on. We dont know for a fact it was taken off. In all likelyhood it wasnt.

May or may not. Let's wait for the results of the official investigation.

Or watch the recording

Not really no. Anywho, my point is that see definite improvement in England's backs over the course of the last 18 months or so.

So Ian Ritchie did or did not mess around with the time keeping in the Ireland Vs England game ?

I forget what we are talking about sometimes.

No 7&1/2 wrote: Anywho, my point is that see definite improvement in England's backs over the course of the last 18 months or so.

Hmmmm.... I'm not so sure there, 7&1/2 I'm actually still prepared to wait on an official report on it before believing what my eyes saw on Saturday. Official report says a bundle of tries were scored and then I'll agree with you. Until then - jury is out.

LordDowlais wrote:So Ian Ritchie did or did not mess around with the time keeping in the Ireland Vs England game ?

I forget what we are talking about sometimes.

Ritchie told Gatland that Welsh performances were not acceptable and Gatland disallowed a perfectly good English try during the French game - the little dog laughed to see such sport, and the dish ran way with the clock.

It's all there in the final report Lord. Read it.

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote: Anywho, my point is that see definite improvement in England's backs over the course of the last 18 months or so.

Hmmmm.... I'm not so sure there, 7&1/2  I'm actually still prepared to wait on an official report on it before believing what my eyes saw on Saturday.  Official report says a bundle of tries were scored and then I'll agree with you.  Until then - jury is out.

Depends if official is the official Mr Ritchie or the official tries scored by backs list. Officially I don't know.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not really no. Anywho, my point is that see definite improvement in England's backs over the course of the last 18 months or so.

Without question. Creativity both as a team in terms of varying their plays and individually creative probably being the biggest step forward.

They are able to vary their approach and are much less predictable as a result.

Also the players brought in seem to be much better at creating space and beating defenders too while also linking up well with eachother and they also make a lot less mistakes IMO.

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not really no. Anywho, my point is that see definite improvement in England's backs over the course of the last 18 months or so.

Without question. Creativity both as a team in terms of varying their plays and individually creative probably being the biggest step forward.

They are able to vary their approach and are much less predictable as a result.

Also the players brought in seem to be much better at creating space and beating defenders too while also linking up well with eachother and they also make a lot less mistakes IMO.

True, its not their fault the opposition turned up and tried in all the games. If Scotland and Italy had gone easy on them like they did for the "fringe" teams, and allowed them to catch all the bad passe,s then England would be 6 nations champions now and all the Irish would be bad losers instead of bad winners.