Welsh Regions signings

First topic message reminder :

Dragons:
Ed Jackson (Wasps)
Sarel Pretourious (Cheetahs)
Charlie Davies (Wasps)
Carl Meyer (Ebbw Vale)
Adam Warren (Scarlets)

Blues:
Blaine Scully (Leicester Tigers)
Ray Lee- Loy (Hurricanes)
Tom James (Exeter)

Scarlets:
DTH van der merwe (Glasgow)
Will Taylor (Wasps)
Price (Leicester Tigers)
Aled Thomas (Gloucester)
Morgan Allen (Ospreys)
Jack Condy (Cross Keys)
Dylan Evans (Queensland)

Ospreys:
Brendan Leonard (Zebre)
Gareth Delve (japan somewhere?)
Paul James (Bath)

Please help if I have missed any

bedfordwelsh wrote:Gets my vote Griff, I always use to be a Tovey fan but since he returned from the Blues he has been hit n miss at best of times.

Cardiff ruined Tovey.
I jest, but MM is a red rag to a bull due to his stature unfortunately. Very exciting in open play, but offers not much when defending. He'd have to be looked after against the bigger boys. Like Dai Flan for instance.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I have heard rumours, based on twitter comments, that with Bristol losing out on the Prem again there may be a few of their lads looking for regional places again.

Talk down west is yet again focusing on Ian Evans heading to PYS (as it has for the last few seasons).

Statto to PYS too?

Nah he did his little stint when Mark Jones was coaching the Welsh backs. He's all yours or the Dragons.

The Dragons need a controlling outside half who's ideally a playmaker too. Matthew Morgan's definitely not the first of those things and I'm not sure he's the second either.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I have heard rumours, based on twitter comments, that with Bristol losing out on the Prem again there may be a few of their lads looking for regional places again.

Talk down west is yet again focusing on Ian Evans heading to PYS (as it has for the last few seasons).

Statto to PYS too?

Nah he did his little stint when Mark Jones was coaching the Welsh backs.  He's all yours or the Dragons.

Who is Statto?

The Statman Holley

I think giving the correct management Tovey could be that controlling outside half

Dorian gets enough criticism for falling off tackles and so what good would Morgan do? His highlight reel would mostly contain clips of him breaking in unstructured games and I've never really seen him get a backline going. He is certainly not the answer for Dragons at ten. There's a reason Ospreys preferred Sam Davies over him.

Fair enough. But in my opinion Tovey is one of the most over rated pro players in Welsh rugby. So we need him gone and we can't just rely on Dorian Jones. The management doesn't seem too keen on the 10s that have come through in the past few seasons, with 3 shipping out or falling out of favour pretty quickly (Angus O'Brien, Lewis Robling (perhaps more of a 12), Steffan Jones). We need to go shopping.

I heard we weren't looking for another 10.

Shame, as what we have will not get the backs working as well as we all would like.

We'll have more control from scrum half with Pretorius, but even so I think we need someone to give us direction from outside half too.

I'll be honest, I can't see who overrates him. That would suggest people big him up too much and I haven't seen that. I think Tovey is more underrated given the often unjust criticism he gets.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The Dragons need a controlling outside half who's ideally a playmaker too. Matthew Morgan's definitely not the first of those things and I'm not sure he's the second either.

Luckless, you are absolutely spot on, he has neither of those attributes, if you watch highlights packages of Mathew Morgan you would think what a player, but if you had to endure whole matches where he played for us, you would think, thank god he has gone, for ALL the breaks that he made, I bet he has lost the ball in contact at least 75% of the time, and cost us many a game because after making a good break he would not pass to a supporting player and would be turned over, and whoever above said Sam Davies was preferred was right, and rightly so.

even the breaks he made in the play off final should be tempered with the fact he lost the ball in contact on two occasions. He is like another Hook if you ask me

GavinDragon wrote:even the breaks he made in the play off final should be tempered with the fact he lost the ball in contact on two occasions. He is like another Hook if you ask me

I was thinking similar. A very good bench option to inject some pace at fullback or fly half.

The less than impressive recruitment by the Scarlets has now been explained by their £1.7M loss last year! It's certainly not surprising that they have failed to retain Preiesland and Snyman and restricted their recruitment to mostly relatively unknown players. it looks like the move from Stradey which was supposed to be the salvation of the Region is now an albatross around their necks with significant loans to be serviced.

I know that in football that loss would be considered to be not too concerning but the benefactors at PYS surely cannot continue subsidising the Region to that extent. What's next, do what the Whites and Neath did and declare bankrupsy so that they can start again from a blank sheet? Merge with the Ospreys, at least the combined side would have a purpose built stadium of heir own in stead of rattling around in the expanded Liberty? Or will they just disappear like the Warriors?

Seagul, or carry on into next season and see how the adjustments the board have made plus the extra £6m investment make a difference.

Seagul, the Scarlets are in the position that we (Os) were in a couple of seasons ago, they are just starting a year or two later down the line, they'll be ok in a season or two.

Here is some news on Dragons signings, Adam Warren we already knew about, but I did not know they would be signing a winger from London Welsh:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/33090666

Both signings have been mooted for ages.

Ospreys have signed Ollie Evans on a development contract:-

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_58777,00.html

And as Luckless Pedestrian has stated on Dragons thread, they have signed a prop from Gloucester:-

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_59039,00.html

Kris Phillips has gone to the Ospreys too.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Kris Phillips has gone to the Ospreys too.

The winger ?

LordDowlais wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Kris Phillips has gone to the Ospreys too.

The winger ?

Yep. He left them with no confidence and an injury issue, and returns a more complete player and over his injury issues (touch wood). Not bad business for them.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Kris Phillips has gone to the Ospreys too.

The winger ?

Yep.  He left them with no confidence and an injury issue, and returns a more complete player and over his injury issues (touch wood).  Not bad business for them.

Yep, he left us as probably our 6th or 7th best winger, with people like Bowe, Shane, Eli and Dirksen ahead of him, even Fussell and Tom Isaacs were selected ahead of him after the first few matches of the season, whereas if or when he comes back he will have Walker, Hassler, Dirksen and Grabham definitely ahead of him now, possibly John in an emergency and Howells by the end of the season ahead of him, not much will have changed, he will be handy around WC time and low cost for B&I Cup, that will be about all.

Probably a decent option at B&I cup level. If you want to be competitive in that competition then Ospreys should be willing to lend an SA lock or two as well.

Whats happened to Dirkson? Wasnt he touted as a future international a few seasons ago? HE was in electric form, has he had injuries?

Fanster wrote:Whats happened to Dirkson? Wasnt he touted as a future international a few seasons ago? HE was in electric form, has he had injuries?

Yes

wayne wrote:

Fanster wrote:Whats happened to Dirkson? Wasnt he touted as a future international a few seasons ago? HE was in electric form, has he had injuries?

Yes

Is he definitely staying put? There were whispers we were looking at him (could just be cos he's an injury prone osprey, so our kind of signing).

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

wayne wrote:

Fanster wrote:Whats happened to Dirkson? Wasnt he touted as a future international a few seasons ago? HE was in electric form, has he had injuries?

Yes

Is he definitely staying put?  There were whispers we were looking at him (could just be cos he's an injury prone osprey, so our kind of signing).

I don't know SS, I heard it was in the Rugby Paper then it was on our forum, then here, I'm indifferent to it, we need strengthening in more important positions IMO.

He has signed for us now, only for one year, looks like cover during WC, with Hassler definitely going and the possibility of Walker as well, it would be good insurance, if he wants a longer term contract, he had better show a marked improvement in his defensive duties, compared to when he was here before.

He never lived up to early potential but did have nasty injury few seasons back as well, didn't he go down under for a spell also?

I think we as a rugby nation are churning out a lot of average backs since the current crop previously emerged at age grade, wingers especially. Jordan Williams and Hallam Amos are obvious exceptions to this; apart from that I haven't seen a decent U20 winger in years.

Jordan Williams has gone backwards as well over past season n bit hope he can come back as he's another one who looked to have that something extra.

Definitely, if he can play at that level at age 19 then he certainly has a bright future in rugby. IMO Scarlets have a knack for dropping good, young players if they have one bad game and keeping average players in their team. Williams was certainly better than Robinson. Scarlets need to give this guy a run of games, and also do their utmost to bring back his brother in the near future .

Yeah I never quite understood why they preferred Robinson over Williams.

The Saint wrote:I think we as a rugby nation are churning out a lot of average backs since the current crop previously emerged at age grade, wingers especially. Jordan Williams and Hallam Amos are obvious exceptions to this; apart from that I haven't seen a decent U20 winger in years.

I disagree we are churning out a lot of average backs right now, we are creating some extremely talented youngsters, who for a number of reasons are not taking the next step into challenging international players...

Rhys Patchell
Cory Allen
Tyler Morgan
Hallam Amos
Jack Dixon
Jordan Williams
Sam Davies (IRB junior player of the year)
Tom Prydie
Matthew Morgan
Eli Walker
Owen Williams

All these guys have been produced by the age grade teams and brought to a standard where they were ready for pro rugby at a young age, however the next step is competing with the regional first teams and fighting for a first team spot, then fighting for club honours, then fighting for international recognition.

Sadly all of these players have probably been thrown into average teams as first choice players without learning their trade or fighting for a spot.

We are producing potential international quality, it's just when the regions get hold of them they stop progressing and don't put any pressure on the international players!

I find the 12 position what is wrong with Welsh rugby right now, full respect to Jamie Roberts, good player and great servant to Wales thus far, however if he goes down injured there is literally nothing behind him, Scott Williams could cover, but now Davies is out cannot. There is no real back up to 12, arguably Rhys Patchell is our next best option, but given he's been shifted from 10, to 12, back to 10, to 15 he's unsure what he is now!

I think the WRU is producing more talent than ever before, however the regions are holding that talent back!

Eh, who's we?
I think we've produced more average backs in recent U20 teams, I was pretty much referring to the past two years, mostly players that aren't good enough to make the step-up. Prydie, O.Williams, Allen, M.Morgan, Walker were over 3 years ago now. Patchell didn't play for the U20s. That includes Sam Davies as he's always been a poor player, Jack Clifford should have won POTY. Dixon and Morgan are the exception to this, and the fact that they have been able to break into the Dragons XV in the past two seasons renders your point obsolete. The rest of what you have written is rubbish and says to me you don't really watch enough rugby in Wales.

Fanster wrote:

The Saint wrote:I think we as a rugby nation are churning out a lot of average backs since the current crop previously emerged at age grade, wingers especially. Jordan Williams and Hallam Amos are obvious exceptions to this; apart from that I haven't seen a decent U20 winger in years.

I disagree we are churning out a lot of average backs right now, we are creating some extremely talented youngsters, who for a number of reasons are not taking the next step into challenging international players...

Rhys Patchell
Cory Allen
Tyler Morgan
Hallam Amos
Jack Dixon
Jordan Williams
Sam Davies (IRB junior player of the year)
Tom Prydie
Matthew Morgan
Eli Walker
Owen Williams

All these guys have been produced by the age grade teams and brought to a standard where they were ready for pro rugby at a young age, however the next step is competing with the regional first teams and fighting for a first team spot, then fighting for club honours, then fighting for international recognition.

Sadly all of these players have probably been thrown into average teams as first choice players without learning their trade or fighting for a spot.

We are producing potential international quality, it's just when the regions get hold of them they stop progressing and don't put any pressure on the international players!

I find the 12 position what is wrong with Welsh rugby right now, full respect to Jamie Roberts, good player and great servant to Wales thus far, however if he goes down injured there is literally nothing behind him, Scott Williams could cover, but now Davies is out cannot. There is no real back up to 12, arguably Rhys Patchell is our next best option, but given he's been shifted from 10, to 12, back to 10, to 15 he's unsure what he is now!

I think the WRU is producing more talent than ever before, however the regions are holding that talent back!

Jack Dixon?

The Saint wrote:Eh, who's we?
I think we've produced more average backs in recent U20 teams, I was pretty much referring to the past two years, mostly players that aren't good enough to make the step-up. Prydie, O.Williams, Allen, M.Morgan, Walker were over 3 years ago now. Patchell didn't play for the U20s. That includes Sam Davies as he's always been a poor player, Jack Clifford should have won POTY. Dixon and Morgan are the exception to this, and the fact that they have been able to break into the Dragons XV in the past two seasons renders your point obsolete. The rest of what you have written is rubbish and says to me you don't really watch enough rugby in Wales.

Don't move the goalposts, or twist away from what you said, your words were 'since the current crop' meaning the current Welsh backline!!

You are pretty much talking about the last 2 years?

Ok lets start with Patchell who did play U20's rugby, and is in the Welsh extended squad.

Hallam Amos who is a Dragons regular and in the Wales squad.

Jack Dixon is a Dragons regular.

Corey Allan played U20's rugby in 2013.

Who you think 'should've' won JPOY (thats right junior) means not a jot to anyone on the planet but you, so thats discounted. Sam is still a regional regular! The more knowlegable folk went with Sam Davies, so it's a fact!

Dixon, and Morgan highlight my point, they are paying pro rugby at young ages without too much competition for their spot, 20 odd appearances each says so, and 60 for Amos brings my point home! Amos and Dixon made stupid young debuts!

I think you're a bit of a sore loser, how else would you force an unwinnable argument and make yourself look this silly?

LOL I'm doing no such thing. I said since the current crop (Roberts, Davies, Williams, Biggar, Halfpenny - latter 4 in the same Wales academy teams) emerged. I haven't been that impressed with the talent since, but more-so referring to the past two U20 teams who have been utter gash.

I can't remember seeing Patchell ever play U20s rugby, he was with the Blues and injured a lot. I've already acknowledged those players anyway, can you not read? Sam Davies is rubbish irrespective of his novelty award. He is an inconsistent kicker of the ball, lacks pace, and is poor in defence.  

How do Dixon and Morgan highlight your point? You claimed the Regions were holding players back. This proves that the Dragons aren't What a dumb thing to say. Their selection is a result of our investment in the academy. They both fought their way into the starting team, injury to our centre's helped their cause at times but they should rightly be considered first choice from now on. I'm a regular of supporting my team. You don't watch Welsh rugby, so it's probably best you concede and listen to what I tell you. The only thing that holds certain Wales players back like it always has done is Gatland's selection policy. You ought to write this down so you can be more convincing in your next debate, it's a lot better than google.

As for your final statement, just oh dear.... No welsh poster wishes to debate with you. Your points are very dull, they lack consistency and are out of touch with reality. It's best to stay off our threads. I'm done.

I don't rate Sam Davies at all though he does seem to get fair amount of game time and was often chosen ahead of M Morgan.

Dixon and T Morgan for us have both taken their opportunities with both hands even if picking them was forced due to injury. They are both class acts and future Welsh centre pairing in the making.

That was for one year BW, and it happened towards the end of the season. They preferred Davies, but me personally I rate Morgan higher. I think some supporters might forget the mess he once got them out of in Treviso. Given the way Ospreys play, Morgan probably isn't suited to their game. He's looking good over in Bristol though as their style is more suitable for him. I don't see Davies being anything more than a club player for a while, before he finds a permanent home in the premiership in the near future. The U20 fly-halves from the past two season aren't much better mind.

Exactly Bedford. How can we be accused of holding them back...Beggars belief.

The Saint wrote:LOL I'm doing no such thing. I said since the current crop (Roberts, Davies, Williams, Biggar, Halfpenny - latter 4 in the same Wales academy teams) emerged. I haven't been that impressed with the talent since, but more-so referring to the past two U20 teams who have been utter gash.

I can't remember seeing Patchell ever play U20s rugby, he was with the Blues and injured a lot. I've already acknowledged those players anyway, can you not read? Sam Davies is rubbish irrespective of his novelty award. He is an inconsistent kicker of the ball, lacks pace, and is poor in defence.  

How do Dixon and Morgan highlight your point? You claimed the Regions were holding players back. This proves that the Dragons aren't What a dumb thing to say. Their selection is a result of our investment in the academy. They both fought their way into the starting team, injury to our centre's helped their cause at times but they should rightly be considered first choice from now on. I'm a regular of supporting my team. You don't watch Welsh rugby, so it's probably best you concede and listen to what I tell you. The only thing that holds certain Wales players back like it always has done is Gatland's selection policy. You ought to write this down so you can be more convincing in your next debate, it's a lot better than google.

As for your final statement, just oh dear.... No welsh poster wishes to debate with you. Your points are very dull, they lack consistency and are out of touch with reality. It's best to stay off our threads. I'm done.

Ok this is a bit too laughable to respond to, but Im going to give it a shot...

Are you seriously saying that every U20 team that doesnt contribute 4 players to the national team within 2 years is rubbish?

And the last 2 U20 teams have been utter gash? You mean compared to lets say 2011, where we were pummeled 92 - 0, o finishing 7th in 2010?! We have had a pretty average U20's team forever, the 2012 and 2013 spike was a good crop of players coached well, the last 2 have been pretty competitive. When you give it a bit of time, and see some of the last 2 teams develop, you'll see there will be some handy players not every year can be a best ever!

I never once said the regions couldn't give these players gametime, if you had read correctly I said they were thrown into their regions teams without having to compete for their jersey enough, and have then gained honours in losing teams and without being competitive! All the players in the list above I mentioned are first team players at young ages, they had noone to learn from, noone to fight for the jersey from.

But lets highlight my points with more facts...

Of every back who has been involved with the U20's since 2013, 7 have made the Wales extended squad, compared to 3 of their English counterpart. And thats not including North because of his U20 caps are full caps lol.

So the last 2 years we have produced no quality backs eh?

Fanster wrote:Are you seriously saying that every U20 team that doesnt contribute 4 players to the national team within 2 years is rubbish?

No. One can only assume you're moving the goal posts here, because this is BS.

Fanster wrote:And the last 2 U20 teams have been utter gash? You mean compared to lets say 2011, where we were pummeled 92 - 0, o finishing 7th in 2010?! We have had a pretty average U20's team forever, the 2012 and 2013 spike was a good crop of players coached well, the last 2 have been pretty competitive. When you give it a bit of time, and see some of the last 2 teams develop, you'll see there will be some handy players  not every year can be a best ever!

Oh, here comes your true colours again. They were gash too. Happy? The last 2 have been anything but competitive. Seeing as you didn't watch any of those games (and why would you) I suggest you look up the results in the archive; that seems to be a thing for you.

Fanster wrote:I never once said the regions couldn't give these players gametime, if you had read correctly I said they were thrown into their regions teams without having to compete for their jersey enough, and have then gained honours in losing teams and without being competitive! All the players in the list above I mentioned are first team players at young ages, they had noone to learn from, noone to fight for the jersey from.

What makes you believe that? The players I'm talking about took their opportunity with both hands and made a name for themselves. That is EXACTLY what we want from our young players. You said the Regions were holding them back. What an utter BS and comical comment. The rest of what you say is just your opinion and really doesn't prove that "the regions hold them back" or anything of the sort - I'm actually now wondering why you even typed your last three comments?

Fanster wrote:But lets highlight my points with more facts...

Of every back who has been involved with the U20's since 2013, 7 have made the Wales extended squad, compared to 3 of their English counterpart. And thats not including North because of his U20 caps are full caps lol.

So the last 2 years we have produced no quality backs eh?

2014 and 2015 squads AWO... Fanster, 2014 and 2015. Dixon and Morgan were still there in 2014 but Morgan was on the wing (because of a crap coach). However, again, I've already named these as exceptions. Thornton made the extended squad for some odd reason but now he's injured anyway. See how your version of facts are refutable now? You're incredibly poor at this.

I'm not sure whats funnier, the fact that you keep eluding to me not being Welsh or your severe lack of knowledge...

If you believe 2013/2014 season and 2014/215 were poor, and admit 2009/2010 and 2010/2011 were poor, then how are you perceiving the 2 seasons in between as anything but a flash in the pan? JRWC finals are not the norm for us, and probably will only be acheivable rarely, you can't compare apples and oranges, well normal people can, you on an internet forum would try to compare apples with Dragons if it was I who claimed them different, which makes me wonder why you constantly attack me?

So I will respond to your insults points...

Point 1. You clearly only believe a usefull U20 backline is one that can provide 4+ players into an international backline

'I said since the current crop (Roberts, Davies, Williams, Biggar, Halfpenny - latter 4 in the same Wales academy teams) emerged. I haven't been that impressed with the talent since, but more-so referring to the past two U20 teams who have been utter gash. '

But you don't realise the time it takes for an U20 player to develop, hence why the last 2 seasons havn't provided your reuired 4 international players yet!

Point 2. Because I use both eyes and recognised we aren't the strongest U20 team around, and havn't dominated U20 rugby i have 'true colours'? 92-0 is not my opinion, its what we got beat by, and caused a huge upset within the WRU and was probably the catalyst to what happened after ie becoming more competitive!

Point 3. What you call 'taking their opportunity with both hands' the rest of the world, and yes I have to agree with them, see it as top quality players leaving the regions and not being replaced, and having 16 yr olds thrust into pro rugby! What other reason would you give for the last few years of Gavin Evans dominating the Blues midfield? Roberts and Laulala leave and there has been no replacement, so Gavin Evans is the only competition players like Patchell and Allen have had, GAVIN EVANS!!! Even your smarter than what your pretending to be here!

Point 4. Ok, based on your very nice asking lets refine the rules again to suit your argument, lets use 2014 and 2015 only...

Wales 3
England 2

So the last 2 U20 teams have still produced as much if not more international quality backs at this point than England, wow what a rubbish 2 years we've had!!!

It's too easy, at least make some sort of an effort to prove what you want to say, instead of just spouting garbage that can't be backed up, then when proved wrong resort to insults, I await an elegant response

Even though it is not a new signing, the best news I've had all summer is the fact Nicky Smith has extended his contract until 2019, now the most important is for Fia to be officially signed and for him to be as good as some believe him to be.

Fanster wrote: your severe lack of knowledge...

Oh dear the irony                  

Fanster wrote:If you believe 2013/2014 season and 2014/215 were poor, and admit 2009/2010 and 2010/2011 were poor, then how are you perceiving the 2 seasons in between as anything but a flash in the pan? JRWC finals are not the norm for us, and probably will only be acheivable rarely, you can't compare apples and oranges, well normal people can, you on an internet forum would try to compare apples with Dragons if it was I who claimed them different, which makes me wonder why you constantly attack me?

Who even types this BS? Nobody Welsh who watches our teams and players regularly would, as they would understand the differences in those 2012/13 teams. No idea what the rest of this comment is trying to say.

Fanster wrote:So I will respond to your insults points...

Childish.

Fanster wrote:Point 1. You clearly only believe a usefull U20 backline is one that can provide 4+ players into an international backline

No I don't. That's your assumption.
FYI, that team contained more decent players who became pro's than you know, as you haven't looked it up yet. Me and the others here remember though, as we were supporting our team at the time.

Fanster wrote:But you don't realise the time it takes for an U20 player to develop, hence why the last 2 seasons havn't provided your reuired 4 international players yet!

Again you've jumped to conclusions. Future Wales players are pretty easy to spot. Not sure why you would make up that I don't realise that most players take time to develop. Especially when reading my earlier comments on Jordan Williams. It isn't the first time you've made stuff up to try and support your failing argument.

Fanster wrote:Point 2. Because I use both eyes and recognised we aren't the strongest U20 team around, and havn't dominated U20 rugby i have 'true colours'? 92-0 is not my opinion, its what we got beat by, and caused a huge upset within the WRU and was probably the catalyst to what happened after ie becoming more competitive!

Who the heck are you even responding to with these comments? I've said nothing of the sort. Your true colours are seemingly all black, which you're again showing with more and more references to NZ. And no I doubt that is what became the catalyst. Here's something for you to note, it was  a decent coach (Wilson) being given time to bring together a good group of players who could execute an effective game plan. Since he left our teams have gone backwards, hence my original point, the one you don't agree with. Anyway according to you it was more of a flash than a catalyst, so which is it? Actually, just don't answer that.

Fanster wrote:Point 3. What you call 'taking their opportunity with both hands' the rest of the world, and yes I have to agree with them, see it as top quality players leaving the regions and not being replaced, and having 16 yr olds thrust into pro rugby! What other reason would you give for the last few years of Gavin Evans dominating the Blues midfield? Roberts and Laulala leave and there has been no replacement, so Gavin Evans is the only competition players like Patchell and Allen have had, GAVIN EVANS!!! Even your smarter than what your pretending to be here!

They were quality players. If you're good enough, you're old enough. If you invest in the academy, then it makes sense to use it unless I'm missing something....... Why you switching it to the Blues now? They're a poor example to use tbh given their mismanagement. Allen is injury prone otherwise he'd be more of a regular. I guess there hasn't been any more U20 centres capable since Roberts departure from the Blues. Must be some average U20s from there in recent times...... Like I said. Your 'witty' one-liners are very poor. I don't pretend to be anything. I watch rugby. I've grown up in Wales. It seems that a lot of us agree on here that you're one of the ones who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Fanster wrote:Point 4. Ok, based on your very nice asking lets refine the rules again to suit your argument, lets use 2014 and 2015 only...

Wales 3
England 2

So the last 2 U20 teams have still produced as much if not more international quality backs at this point than England, wow what a rubbish 2 years we've had!!!

It's too easy, at least make some sort of an effort to prove what you want to say, instead of just spouting garbage that can't be backed up, then when proved wrong resort to insults, I await an elegant response

We aren't refining any rules. I've been quite clear all along, the past two U20 teams were clearly the ones in 2014 and 2015. And U20 teams that you brought into it had some internationals too... They were still poor teams though.

Who are these backs? Dixon, Morgan and.. ? Why are we comparing to England? Again, I acknowledged Dixon and Morgan as the exception long ago. Not sure how much more clear I need to be. I'm not spouting any garbage that can't be backed up. I've been quite clear in my opinion all along; which itself is backed up by results and lack of quality backs in the U20 teams I referred to. You haven't proved anyone wrong since joining this site 'Fanster.' You're almost as bad as Sean Holley with all this self praise. Carry on anyway, more Welsh posters will have you on ignore by RWC .

Ok I'm going to summarise because your clearly embarrased as you've either intentioanlly misrepresented what I've said, moved the goalposts, or resorted to calling me another poster (yes your subtlety is slipping, and becoming more obvious again).

Lets pretend where we started was where you wanted to go, bashing the last 2 years of the U20 regime as not producing any decent backs...

You keep refusing to acknowledge that Wales have 3 recent graduates from the U20's compared to Englands 2, does this mean you believe Englands U20's of the last 2 years have also been gash?

I also have to adress the 'future Wales players are easy to spot' laughable comment. Are you as dull as you are sounding or do you really believe this to be true, because some of the best and most knowledgable people in Wales get this wrong over and over, including massive hype over certain players like Prydie, Phillips, Robinson, Warren, and dare I say it Andries Pretorious, all of which were determined good enough for international rugby by Gatland, but hey don't tell me you knew they weren't good enough before Gatland ye?

You realise the difference between a flash in the pan, and a catalyst don't you? the 92-0 was the catalyst for the higher competitive U20 team, however after a good group of players graduated 2 seasons later the performances have started to return.

I have to ask, you do realise that the point of U20 rugby isn't winning tournaments right? Its a development tool, and is designed specifically to develop players through their specific window of trainability? If you don't this conversation isn't worth having.

Do you not get bored of repeating the same BS? You take yourself way too seriously. This is an internet forum. Your defensive attitude when somebody points out the blatantly obvious has also been highlighted elsewhere might I add.

They didn't really did they. They've had two players in their team. Seeing as they made their pro debut at U18 level then it can be argued that it was the Dragons that produced them. No, England's clearly haven't. They've had good results, and probably will have a lot of those player on pro contracts soon enough. Not sure what point you're trying to make there as it's you who seems to 'keep moving the goal posts.'

No. Honestly Fanster, you must really be new to watching Wales rugby or just not Welsh at all to be coming out with some of these statements. Everyone in Wales knows most of those players weren't good enough at the time so why would you mention them? Howells went on to the Japan tour, you can't say that was a form pick can you... And bear in mind the disastrous Japan tour where Pretorious was capped, Gats wasn't in charge . Since we were discussing U20s rugby...I clearly meant it's fairly easy to identify future talent playing in those teams - meaning you would actually have to watch them play which is something you don't do. Not sure how you would surmise something else and come out with a bonkers reply talking about the novelty caps that were given out. BTW, each of those guys still has a pro contract so they are deemed good enough for pro rugby.

No it wasn't. I've already told you how the U20s team improved. Do you not yet realise these are rolling squads, as in they change each year?

Yeah I think everyone knows. Well done for stating the obvious, people might believe you're a rugby fan now... My point was that recent teams haven't developed many good backs, wingers especially. There we are then, it seems I'm right. Finally, no - this conversation was never worth having as it's already been made clear on this forum that no welsh poster wishes to engage with you. Me, I just like helping you make yourself sound stupid.