Cincinnati Masters

by YvonneT Mon 17 Aug 2015, 1:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

Full draw: http://www.protennislive.com/posting/2015/422/mds.pdf

by Belovedluckyboy Thu 20 Aug 2015, 11:43 am

Rafa not a master strategist on court? You should watch his matches esp on clay during 2008-2010 and see how he 'trapped' his opponents and anticipated their every move(eg vs Hanescu at Rome in 2010).

In 2011, he was low in confidence, esp after he injured his thigh during AO when trying to win his second career slam. Dont just pick one year out of a good ten years of Rafa's career and think thats a good representation of the way he plays. He was brilliant against Kei and Dimi at AO2014 despite having a palm blister bothering him, not to mention how he handle Fed in the SF. He could play a counterpunching game one match and an attacking one the next depending on the type of opponent he has to face. He made necessary adjustments during matches when one game plan was not working. I particularly like the way he made changes to his court positions during matches to counter his opponents, esp vs Berdych at AO2012, or vs Nalby at IW one year when he was facing MPs but changed things up to win in the end.

As i said before, Rafa plays a thinking game. The current Rafa is way off his usual good self, still finding his way back hence seems lost out there when under pressure.

by temporary21 Thu 20 Aug 2015, 11:50 am

Bit of light releif
http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/cincinnati-2015-video-murray-ice-cream-seller

Doesnt even throw his voice! Who on earth would ever fall for that!

by Belovedluckyboy Thu 20 Aug 2015, 11:56 am

I agree that players like Brown or Rosol are high risk players and they have to be in order for them to have a chance to win their matches.

Fed is NOT a high risk player, I really dont see him taking much risk! He's not one who aims for the lines all the time; he's also not a net rusher all the time, certainly plans his move to the net and not recklessly. He's just a more aggressive player, not a high risk taker.

by HM Murdock Thu 20 Aug 2015, 12:22 pm

temporary21 wrote:Bit of light releif
http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/cincinnati-2015-video-murray-ice-cream-seller

Doesnt even throw his voice! Who on earth would ever fall for that!

"We're not gonna get to see you live"
"That's probably not a bad thing"
laughing

by LuvSports! Thu 20 Aug 2015, 12:32 pm

Blb.
Does rafa have a plan B? Has he adapted his game? No. His plan A is so good and effective, he doesn't need to, until now.

Feds couldn't keep up from the baseline with the big four so he now comes to the net a lot more to compensate for (imo) not as solid a groundstroke game and slight loss of mobility.

He certainly takes more risks than Rafa does.

by Belovedluckyboy Thu 20 Aug 2015, 1:05 pm

Last, Of course Rafa has a plan B! You don't think he can and has played a more aggressive game and also one that mixed in good net approaches? You don't think he can up his level and plays a more attacking game than his defense/offense game?

Rafa plays a countrrpunching game vs Fed; an aggressive game vs Murray (eg their Wimbledon matches and their WTF2010 match); and a hard hitting blow for blow game vs Novak.

You said it yourself, it's now that Fed couldn't keep up his baseline game vs Rafa and Co that he takes more risk now (risk of being passed) moving to the net more often. In the past, he hardly took any risk, just stayed back and played from the baseline most of the time.

by temporary21 Thu 20 Aug 2015, 1:17 pm

I don't understand the point of this conversation. Are we trying to argue that rafa is more aggressive than federer? Surely that's not a debate. Just because you don't play like roger doesn't make you passive. This old myth about rafa being passive is silly, a concoction by his detractors who refuse to give him any credit because he's rogers kryptonite. Of course he's quite agreessive and a clever tactician, his tennis not being pretty doesn't make that false

by break_in_the_fifth Thu 20 Aug 2015, 1:22 pm

Nadal is like the Serena Williams of mens tennis. He's just so physically beyond everyone else that everything else tennis is inconsequential.

by Haddie-nuff Thu 20 Aug 2015, 1:26 pm

This old myth about rafa being passive is silly, a concoction by his detractors who refuse to give him any credit because he's rogers kryptonite. Of course he's quite agreessive and a clever tactician, his tennis not being pretty doesn't make that false

clap

Well hooray to that

by bogbrush Thu 20 Aug 2015, 1:34 pm

HM Murdock wrote:
dummy_half wrote:I would argue that even Federer isn't really a high risk player, more a medium risk one
I'm not sure I would even call him medium risk.

He's aggressive with superb technique and wonderful imagination (in the sense that he 'sees' shots that I don't think other players can, hence his brilliant improvisational skills) but I don't think he's much of a gambler.

Certain shots can be spectacular but, such is his ability, his chances of executing those shots are pretty high.

That 'tweener' against Djoko at the USO is maybe his most famous shot but I've seen him pull it off in other matches and exhibitions quite comfortably.

And you simply don't go 81-4 or 92-5 playing risky tennis.

Agree. Federer is not high risk.

by **JuliusHMarx** Thu 20 Aug 2015, 1:37 pm

There's a difference between being aggressive and high-risk though. Fed for example is very aggressive (for a modern player) but is not very high-risk.

So I feel quite comfortable saying Rafa is not, and has never been, a high-risk player, without being a 'detractor'.

by Jahu Thu 20 Aug 2015, 1:53 pm

break_in_the_fifth wrote:Nadal is like the Serena Williams of mens tennis. He's just so physically beyond everyone else that everything else tennis is inconsequential.

Its 2015, not 2010.

Serena is like a whale, she can be like that till she gives birth one day and is tired.

by temporary21 Thu 20 Aug 2015, 2:06 pm

But would you say he's passive which is very different to low risk

by break_in_the_fifth Thu 20 Aug 2015, 2:13 pm

Fed plays (used to) what looks like high risk shots but with consistency therefore making it not high risk. High risk is a relative term. Anyone who plays high risk relative to what they are capable of isn't going to win that often.

Aggressive shots are higher risk than normal shots. There is some common ground between high risk and aggressive.

by **JuliusHMarx** Thu 20 Aug 2015, 2:38 pm

temporary21 wrote:But would you say he's passive which is very different to low risk

Passive relative to what/who?
Less passive than Ferrer (passive baseliner), but more passive than Agassi (aggressive baseliner).

by Haddie-nuff Thu 20 Aug 2015, 2:45 pm

Aggressive Baseliner
Rafael_Nadal - Tennis Strategy - Offensive Baseliner
Rafael Nadal – Famous for being an offensive baseliner

The aggressive baseliner spends most of their time at the baseline, winning most of their points there by playing aggressively.The goal is to hit hard and deep shots that land several feet back from the service line, which will overpower the opponent. Aggressive baseliners are not afraid to take big risks with a shot, but only when there’s an opening where they can put away easy balls or force the opponent to make an error. But while waiting for an opening, it’s common to hit the ball from side to side until one appears. These types of players are often armed with a very big serve as well, which helps to put them on the offense.

Wink

by Guest Thu 20 Aug 2015, 2:49 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Haddie-nuff wrote:His cross court and down the line shots ? with absolutely no room for error when his opponent is rushing the net are absolutely no risk whatsoever. Walk in the park Not winning shots. In fact all Rafa does is keep the ball in play and lets his opponents make the mistakes. What a way to win 14GS
Why do I bother to watch this guy??
Risky shots played when there's no alternative doesn't make someone a risk taking player. When you have no choice then where's the risk? It's either hit that shot or lose the point.

It's what you do when you have all the options that determines your attitude. Rafa, in that case, tends to play low-risk (but possibly aggressive) shots. Not a problem but it doesn't make him a risk-taker.

I would ask what would be deemed as 'no choice'?

I am not disputing your point, but I think this is where strategy comes into play when we determine for example a players fitness and health in the situation. For example if I was on a string and being moved here, there and everywhere on court, would I be in a no choice scenario? The simple choice would be to save energy and let the point go.

For me I think no choice doesn't exist in tennis in terms of risk.

by Haddie-nuff Thu 20 Aug 2015, 3:00 pm

It should be noted that Rafa's win highlights against Chardy in the match last night are shown on the ATP sight and Rafa's signature shot down the fh line is shown... tell me if he didn't go for a higher risk shot when he had other "choices" Erm

by **JuliusHMarx** Thu 20 Aug 2015, 3:32 pm

I don't think anyone is saying Rafa never goes for a high-risk shot, just that in general, that is not his preferred style of play.

by Haddie-nuff Thu 20 Aug 2015, 3:38 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:I don't think anyone is saying Rafa never goes for a high-risk shot, just that in general, that is not his preferred style of play.

Really? then I don't think you have been following this thread too closely.

by **JuliusHMarx** Thu 20 Aug 2015, 3:40 pm

I really don't think anyone has said he never goes for a high-risk shot, have they?

by Haddie-nuff Thu 20 Aug 2015, 3:47 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote: I really don't think anyone has said he never goes for a high-risk shot, have they?

It has been said that he only plays a high risk shot when he has no choice...blatantly not true
His fh dtl and cross court passes played inches inside the line are not played simply when he has "no choice"
These are risk taking shots and you wont convince me differently
Im not implying that this is today's Rafa but that it is what he was capable of when he was so very confident.

by temporary21 Thu 20 Aug 2015, 4:03 pm

A lot of wires are being crossed here. Nones saying that rafas never high risk nor that he's more agressive than roger. There's a difference between high risk and aggression, which can be done with little risk. Passive isn't relative to anything, you don't have to be more agressive than Someone to be considered for it

That said the notion of nadal being just passive stems from the old YouTube comments and dislikes if him he takes little risk but looks to dominate with his feh given the chance, that's an aggressive mindset, but little risk in how he does it

by Haddie-nuff Thu 20 Aug 2015, 4:09 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Haddie-nuff wrote:His cross court and down the line shots ? with absolutely no room for error when his opponent is rushing the net are absolutely no risk whatsoever. Walk in the park Not winning shots. In fact all Rafa does is keep the ball in play and lets his opponents make the mistakes. What a way to win 14GS
Why do I bother to watch this guy??
Risky shots played when there's no alternative doesn't make someone a risk taking player. When you have no choice then where's the risk? It's either hit that shot or lose the point.

It's what you do when you have all the options that determines your attitude. Rafa, in that case, tends to play low-risk (but possibly aggressive) shots. Not a problem but it doesn't make him a risk-taker.

This is totally untrue...so what is your take on that comment so my lines are not crossed with anyone other than you uphold that opinion.

by hawkeye Thu 20 Aug 2015, 4:12 pm

Federer at his best doesn't play high risk either. I think there is some confusion between the terms "high risk" and "aggressive". Both Federer and Nadal play low risk and aggressive.

Out of the two however Nadal has a better tactical game. His success on clay is proof of that. When he is playing well it's difficult for any player to beat him tactically. Commentators have always said players have to play "aggressive" to beat him. But what they mean by that is to play high risk and to play outside their usual comfort zone. There is some truth in that. What they generally have to do is play high risk. Go for the lines, attempt hitting winners off his serve and points that tactically would be best returned with a rally ball. They need to play high risk and aggressive. Of course chances are it won't work because if any player could hit the lines and slug away everything for a winner then they would be the player with 14/17 slams who everyone was trying to beat. But if it does come off they can look great. Worth a try because getting a win over Rafa in a spectacular way can be career defining as Soderling, Rosol, Kyrgios and Brown have discovered. I can also remember Tsonga being hailed after his kamikaze runs to the net to beat Rafa at the AO in 2008. None of these players of course can consistently win playing in this way.

by lags72 Thu 20 Aug 2015, 4:29 pm

hawkeye wrote:

.........................................

Both Federer and Nadal play low risk and aggressive.

Oh dear.

I think you're going to upset someone.

Again Shocked

by HM Murdock Thu 20 Aug 2015, 4:43 pm

When did a forehand down the line become a high risk shot?

by bogbrush Thu 20 Aug 2015, 5:42 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
Haddie-nuff wrote:His cross court and down the line shots ? with absolutely no room for error when his opponent is rushing the net are absolutely no risk whatsoever. Walk in the park Not winning shots. In fact all Rafa does is keep the ball in play and lets his opponents make the mistakes. What a way to win 14GS
Why do I bother to watch this guy??
Risky shots played when there's no alternative doesn't make someone a risk taking player. When you have no choice then where's the risk? It's either hit that shot or lose the point.

It's what you do when you have all the options that determines your attitude. Rafa, in that case, tends to play low-risk (but possibly aggressive) shots. Not a problem but it doesn't make him a risk-taker.

This is totally untrue...so what is your take on that comment so my lines are not crossed with anyone other than you uphold that opinion.

That bit in bold is obviously 100% true, and it doesn't even reference Rafa.

It's like saying a guy who jumps out of a falling plane loves skydiving.

by LuvSports! Thu 20 Aug 2015, 5:55 pm

If you are inside the baseline and are hitting very flat shot for a winner, taking the ball early. Aka dolgo.

by lags72 Thu 20 Aug 2015, 6:04 pm

HM Murdock wrote:When did a forehand down the line become a high risk shot?

Let me think about that.

When Rafa plays one ....?? chin

by temporary21 Thu 20 Aug 2015, 6:08 pm

I would agree that Dolgo is a high risk player overall. Not sure roger is high risk nor is rafa

by Guest Thu 20 Aug 2015, 6:13 pm

This thread has become....

https://youtu.be/zyrH9S8RZXU

by TRuffin Thu 20 Aug 2015, 6:15 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:Aggressive Baseliner
Rafael_Nadal - Tennis Strategy - Offensive Baseliner
Rafael Nadal – Famous for being an offensive baseliner

The aggressive baseliner spends most of their time at the baseline, winning most of their points there by playing aggressively.The goal is to hit hard and deep shots that land several feet back from the service line, which will overpower the opponent. Aggressive baseliners are not afraid to take big risks with a shot, but only when there’s an opening where they can put away easy balls or force the opponent to make an error. But while waiting for an opening, it’s common to hit the ball from side to side until one appears. These types of players are often armed with a very big serve as well, which helps to put them on the offense.

During Wimbldeon, they were putting up little videos on Wimby website where they would catch players on the way to somewhere and ask "resume" questions about themselves and why they should "get to job" of Wimbledon champion. In Federer's, they asked him to label is style and he paused and said "I would call myself now an Offensive Baseliner"

same label as Nadal above- I guess there is room for different styles under that label. Federer saying that did cause debate on his official fan forum as to what that actually meant.

Anyone know if Nadal did a similar video? It would be good to hear what he says himself.

Fed also talked in his presser the other day about how he came onto tour as an aggressive serve and volley player, felt his baseline game wasn't good enough yet, but conditions started changing and he knew he had to concentrate on that- once he got that going he hit his best years... talked about conditions drastically changing from when he started, became a pure baseliner, now he is trying to melt both styles into each other a bit more...

by lags72 Thu 20 Aug 2015, 6:24 pm

The more I think about it, the more I realise what a high-risk player I am. And I'm talking seriously high-risk ...... far more so than Rafa ever was - or ever will be. Or indeed ANY of his peers.

Virtually every shot I hit carries a very high risk of me losing the point .....

by LuvSports! Thu 20 Aug 2015, 6:34 pm

Dolgo beats JJ in 3 Very Happy

- back into the top 50.

Stan serving to stay in the match vs Karlo in the 3rd.

Bird brain a break up early doors vs boredo as is Djoko vs Goffin.

by temporary21 Thu 20 Aug 2015, 6:35 pm

I was thinking more https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KThlYHfIVa8

by Henman Bill Thu 20 Aug 2015, 6:38 pm

High risk and aggressive are close to synonymous, at least in tennis. I think Federer does play high risk.

I disagree with the comment that you can't achieve 95% W/L playing high risk. Tennis matches are around 100-200 points long, high risk on each shot, but it evens out. High risk can achieve success, just ask some investment bankers and hedge fund managers the next time you go yachting in the carribean. Just like Federer half of their shots went into the net but they end floating in a pile of money.

by temporary21 Thu 20 Aug 2015, 6:50 pm

Well tennis more than anything is about when you're hugh risk shots come off. Fedal are money when it's at the clutch

by hawkeye Thu 20 Aug 2015, 6:56 pm

lags72 wrote:The more I think about it, the more I realise what a high-risk player I am. And I'm talking seriously high-risk ...... far more so than Rafa ever was - or ever will be. Or indeed ANY of his peers.

Virtually every shot I hit carries a very high risk of me losing the point .....

by LuvSports! Thu 20 Aug 2015, 7:19 pm

Berdych 6-0 5-1 vs Boredo :O

by LuvSports! Thu 20 Aug 2015, 7:19 pm

Goffin serving to level the match vs djoko at 5-2!

by LuvSports! Thu 20 Aug 2015, 7:37 pm

Goffin just hit three bh screamers in a row.
Leads 3-0 in final set with double break!

by kingraf Thu 20 Aug 2015, 7:38 pm

Djokovic getting slapped around
mumble-mumble-ears-mumble

by bogbrush Thu 20 Aug 2015, 7:47 pm

Hopeless, hapless, crumble from Goffin. Really bad, Djokovic has just had to stay there.

by LuvSports! Thu 20 Aug 2015, 7:49 pm

Pathetic.

by LuvSports! Thu 20 Aug 2015, 8:01 pm

Djoko went into not missing mode and Goffin imploded Sad

.

by HM Murdock Thu 20 Aug 2015, 8:36 pm

Goffin!

A double break up in the third and then loses 6 games in a row?!!

That's ridiculous.

by Guest Thu 20 Aug 2015, 8:58 pm

It was quite the choke! mad

by kingraf Thu 20 Aug 2015, 10:06 pm

Remember when Dale Steyn scored 76 against Australia he said he began to get scorecard drunk, so to speak. The reality of what he was doing began to sink in, and then started thinking "I'm four good shots away from a hundred". He of course didn't get the 100.

Think something similar Happened to Goffin. The score was something he'd never seen before and one of two things happened

- Either started thinking like Steyn "I'm three good games away". Started looking big picture, raced ahead of the scorecard mentally.

- Began to think, there's no way this is gonna last.

by HM Murdock Thu 20 Aug 2015, 10:33 pm

Just watched some highlights of Djokovic v Goffin.

Looked like Goffin started to panic and rush things. He gave the breaks back very cheaply. It didn't look like Novak was doing much more than hang in there.

It was wretched performance from Novak though, the worst I've seen for some time. Seven double faults(!), some dreadful volleys and a forehand so bad it sounded like a thud rather than a pop on the racquet. It was so abjectly poor, I'm wondering if he is playing with some pain.

And he smashed his racquet to pieces after going down a single break in the 2nd; pathetic, childish behaviour.

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