Champions Cup Pool 5: Wasps v RC Toulon, 22 November

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Wasps v RC Toulonnais
Sunday 22 November 2015
KO: 17:15
Ricoh Arena, Coventry

Live on BT Sport / beIN Sports

Referee John Lacey (Ireland)
Touch Judge 1 Dudley Phillips (Ireland)
Touch Judge 2 Leo Colgan (Ireland)
Fourth Official Simon McDowell (Ireland)
TMO Simon McDowell (Ireland)

A. Head to Head

1 Played 1
0 Wins 1
1 Losses 0
0 Draws 0
18 Points 32

B. Recent Form

5 April 2015
Toulon 32 - 18 Wasps

C. Teams

Wasps
 
15. Charles Piutau; 14. Christian Wade, 13. Elliot Daly, 12. Ben Jacobs, 11. Frank Halai; 10. Ruaridh Jackson, 9. Joe Simpson; 1. Matt Mullan, 2. Carlo Festuccia, 3. Jake Cooper-Woolley, 4. Joe Launchbury, 5. Bradley Davies, 6. James Haskell (c), 7. George Smith, 8. Nathan Hughes

16. Ashley Johnson, 17. Simon McIntyre, 18. Lorenzo Cittadini, 19. James Gaskell, 20. Sam Jones, 21. Dan Robson, 22. Alex Lozowski, 23. Sailosi Tagicakibau

RC Toulonnais

15. Delon Armitage; 14. Josua Tuisova, 13. Mathieu Bastareaud, 12. Maxime Mermoz, 11. Bryan Habana; 10. Quade Cooper, 9. Jonathan Pelissie; 1. Xavier Chiocci, 2. Anthony Etrillard, 3. Matt Stevens, 4. Samu Manoa, 5. Romain Taofifenua, 6. Juan Smith (c), 7. Juan Fernandez Lobbe, 8. Steffon Armitage

16. Bastien Soury, 17. Florian Fresia, 18. Levan Chilachava, 19. Duane Vermeulen, 20. Mamuka Gorgodze, 21. Theo Belan, 22. Sebastien Tillous-Borde, 23. Konstantine Mikautadze

Ulster going to either have a wonderful 15 or have a Poopie load of cash come next season.

Great to see Toulon take a beating. Well done Wasps

Welly wrote: Ulster going to either have a wonderful 15 or have a Poopie load of cash come next season.

Why?

Sorry, ignore the above. Off thread.

nathan wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

nathan wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

nathan wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Derek Richardson must be rightly chuffed at what he's achieved with this team.  

32-6.

Wasps are looking like strong contenders for the Franglo Cup.

have you been drinking?

Nope.  I think that's fair comment

yeah it's your thinking over this game that has me asking the question

Fair enough.  Nonetheless Richardson will be rightly chuffed.  And his team are looking the real deal.

oh i certainly agree, he took alot of flak for moving to Coventry but i think he's set them up for a great future

Agreed. Dai Young has done wonders with them. They're eager, fight for each other, and a team that will draw more fans into the future.

A victory well deserved. Toulon looking decidedly second best for the first time in a long while. Bath will take heart from it.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

whocares wrote:Wasps certainly had one of the best value for money recruitment with Halai, Smith, Jackson and piutau (the opposite of Toulon new props!). Toulon is an average team without Giteau.

Not sure I'd go as far as average.

They're a French team away end of the day, complete different beast in France. They're missing some key players in the front 5 and can also start Vermeulen, Nonu, Gorgodze, Mitchell, Halfpenny etc etc.

True but with Giteau running things they are a different animal. Not sure what's the point of Cooper, he cannot control a game which is what you need when things get tough.

Dai Young's doing a great job. Hughes has to play for England, comfortably I think the best all round back-rower (almost) available to us.

Munchkin wrote:

Welly wrote: Ulster going to either have a wonderful 15 or have a Poopie load of cash come next season.

Why?

Because Richardson will try and buy him out of his contract if he continues this form. And if Wasps win silverware this season then it'll be very tempting for Piutau.

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Welly wrote: Ulster going to either have a wonderful 15 or have a Poopie load of cash come next season.

Why?

Because Richardson will try and buy him out of his contract if he continues this form.

I would think that's a given, but why would we need more cash? We have already signed him up. It isn't us that needs a load of cash. It's whoever wants to try and buy him out of the existing contract.

Munchkin wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Welly wrote: Ulster going to either have a wonderful 15 or have a Poopie load of cash come next season.

Why?

Because Richardson will try and buy him out of his contract if he continues this form.

I would think that's a given, but why would we need more cash? We have already signed him up. It isn't us that needs a load of cash. It's whoever wants to try and buy him out of the existing contract.

Ulster have very little to offer above what they've already put on the table.

They're not European heavyweights. They're in a small time league compared to the other two. If the right offer is made from whoever, and piutau's head gets turned....

Interesting that BT Sport caption Dai Young as David Young.

Do their audience not understand foreign languages or is Young going native?

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Welly wrote: Ulster going to either have a wonderful 15 or have a Poopie load of cash come next season.

Why?

Because Richardson will try and buy him out of his contract if he continues this form.

I would think that's a given, but why would we need more cash? We have already signed him up. It isn't us that needs a load of cash. It's whoever wants to try and buy him out of the existing contract.

Ulster have very little to offer above what they've already put on the table.

They're not European heavyweights. They're in a small time league compared to the other two. If the right offer is made from whoever, and piutau's head gets turned....

Thanks for your gracious comments.....

What you don't seem to get is that there will be a fee, and I would think a considerable fee to buy him out, and that's on top of the considerable fee - allegedly £500k per season. Understand?

i hate a smug dayglo

Exactly, a considerable fee. Which is the poopie load of cash Welly was talking about. Maybe you're misreading his post.

Perhaps he might want to stay at Wasps?

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Exactly, a considerable fee. Which is the poopie load of cash Welly was talking about. Maybe you're misreading his post.

You're right, Fuzzy. My apologies, Welly.

Yes, it will cost a few quid to buy him out.

Munchkin wrote:
What you don't seem to get is that there will be a fee, and I would think a considerable fee to buy him out, and that's on top of the considerable fee - allegedly £500k per season. Understand?

Which is exactly the point that was being made in the first place. Either we'll have Piutau, or the huge amount of money it will take to buy out his contract plus his wages freed up.

Munchkin wrote:

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Exactly, a considerable fee. Which is the poopie load of cash Welly was talking about. Maybe you're misreading his post.

You're right, Fuzzy. My apologies, Welly.

Yes, it will cost a few quid to buy him out.

I prob didn't make it 100% clear

Welly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Exactly, a considerable fee. Which is the poopie load of cash Welly was talking about. Maybe you're misreading his post.

You're right, Fuzzy. My apologies, Welly.

Yes, it will cost a few quid to buy him out.

I prob didn't make it 100% clear

Ah, you were clear enough. Just me

Munchkin wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Welly wrote: Ulster going to either have a wonderful 15 or have a Poopie load of cash come next season.

Why?

Because Richardson will try and buy him out of his contract if he continues this form.

I would think that's a given, but why would we need more cash? We have already signed him up. It isn't us that needs a load of cash. It's whoever wants to try and buy him out of the existing contract.

Ulster have very little to offer above what they've already put on the table.

They're not European heavyweights. They're in a small time league compared to the other two. If the right offer is made from whoever, and piutau's head gets turned....

Thanks for your gracious comments.....

What you don't seem to get is that there will be a fee, and I would think a considerable fee to buy him out, and that's on top of the considerable fee - allegedly £500k per season. Understand?

Graciousness is not pertinent. It's business. Of course there'll be a buyout fee but that's the way the money go round turns. Wasps have created a financial model that puts them in a position to pay that - if they want to and if Piutau continues to perform and is willing to be turned. It's the financial reality of what Pro 12 clubs are facing in the brave new world.

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Welly wrote: Ulster going to either have a wonderful 15 or have a Poopie load of cash come next season.

Why?

Because Richardson will try and buy him out of his contract if he continues this form.

I would think that's a given, but why would we need more cash? We have already signed him up. It isn't us that needs a load of cash. It's whoever wants to try and buy him out of the existing contract.

Ulster have very little to offer above what they've already put on the table.

They're not European heavyweights. They're in a small time league compared to the other two. If the right offer is made from whoever, and piutau's head gets turned....

Thanks for your gracious comments.....

What you don't seem to get is that there will be a fee, and I would think a considerable fee to buy him out, and that's on top of the considerable fee - allegedly £500k per season. Understand?

Graciousness is not pertinent. It's business. Of course there'll be a buyout fee but that's the way the money go round turns.  Wasps have created a financial model that puts them in a position to pay that - if they want to and if Piutau continues to perform and is willing to be turned. It's the financial reality of what Pro 12 clubs are facing in the brave new world.  

You don't think being gracious is relevant? Maybe, maybe not. It does show a lack of class though. I expected better from you. Are you a Wasp fan?

The financial reality that Pro12 are facing? You say that as though the AP's sides were all in rude health, and Ulster were broke. Get a grip.

Enough of this nonsense. I'm away as I don't want to be part of taking this thread away from a great win for Wasps.

Laters.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

whocares wrote:Wasps certainly had one of the best value for money recruitment with Halai, Smith, Jackson and piutau (the opposite of Toulon new props!). Toulon is an average team without Giteau.

Not sure I'd go as far as average.

They're a French team away end of the day, complete different beast in France. They're missing some key players in the front 5 and can also start Vermeulen, Nonu, Gorgodze, Mitchell, Halfpenny etc etc.

I am not convinced they get out of the pool

What a great result for Wasps - really enjoyed that. Cannot believe that they kept Toulon to 6. Toulon going to be dangerous in the next round I feel.

Munchkin wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Welly wrote: Ulster going to either have a wonderful 15 or have a Poopie load of cash come next season.

Why?

Because Richardson will try and buy him out of his contract if he continues this form.

I would think that's a given, but why would we need more cash? We have already signed him up. It isn't us that needs a load of cash. It's whoever wants to try and buy him out of the existing contract.

Ulster have very little to offer above what they've already put on the table.

They're not European heavyweights. They're in a small time league compared to the other two. If the right offer is made from whoever, and piutau's head gets turned....

Thanks for your gracious comments.....

What you don't seem to get is that there will be a fee, and I would think a considerable fee to buy him out, and that's on top of the considerable fee - allegedly £500k per season. Understand?

Graciousness is not pertinent. It's business. Of course there'll be a buyout fee but that's the way the money go round turns.  Wasps have created a financial model that puts them in a position to pay that - if they want to and if Piutau continues to perform and is willing to be turned. It's the financial reality of what Pro 12 clubs are facing in the brave new world.  

You don't think being gracious is relevant? Maybe, maybe not. It does show a lack of class though. I expected better from you. Are you a Wasp fan?

The financial reality that Pro12 are facing? You say that as though the AP's sides were all in rude health, and Ulster were broke. Get a grip.

Enough of this nonsense. I'm away as I don't want to be part of taking this thread away from a great win for Wasps.

Laters.

My family are five generations of Ulster folk if that helps to assuage your sense of being offended.

None intended.

The Financial health of the English league compared to the Pro 12 is healthier overall particularly their income flows. The results of last season and this season's cup are fair evidence of that, in my view.

Munchkin wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Welly wrote: Ulster going to either have a wonderful 15 or have a Poopie load of cash come next season.

Why?

Because Richardson will try and buy him out of his contract if he continues this form.

I would think that's a given, but why would we need more cash? We have already signed him up. It isn't us that needs a load of cash. It's whoever wants to try and buy him out of the existing contract.

Ulster have very little to offer above what they've already put on the table.

They're not European heavyweights. They're in a small time league compared to the other two. If the right offer is made from whoever, and piutau's head gets turned....

Thanks for your gracious comments.....

What you don't seem to get is that there will be a fee, and I would think a considerable fee to buy him out, and that's on top of the considerable fee - allegedly £500k per season. Understand?

Graciousness is not pertinent. It's business. Of course there'll be a buyout fee but that's the way the money go round turns.  Wasps have created a financial model that puts them in a position to pay that - if they want to and if Piutau continues to perform and is willing to be turned. It's the financial reality of what Pro 12 clubs are facing in the brave new world.  

You don't think being gracious is relevant? Maybe, maybe not. It does show a lack of class though. I expected better from you. Are you a Wasp fan?

The financial reality that Pro12 are facing? You say that as though the AP's sides were all in rude health, and Ulster were broke. Get a grip.

Enough of this nonsense. I'm away as I don't want to be part of taking this thread away from a great win for Wasps.

Laters.

I'm pretty sure Pot Hale is Irish, and possibly even supports Ulster?

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Welly wrote: Ulster going to either have a wonderful 15 or have a Poopie load of cash come next season.

Why?

Because Richardson will try and buy him out of his contract if he continues this form.

I would think that's a given, but why would we need more cash? We have already signed him up. It isn't us that needs a load of cash. It's whoever wants to try and buy him out of the existing contract.

Ulster have very little to offer above what they've already put on the table.

They're not European heavyweights. They're in a small time league compared to the other two. If the right offer is made from whoever, and piutau's head gets turned....

Thanks for your gracious comments.....

What you don't seem to get is that there will be a fee, and I would think a considerable fee to buy him out, and that's on top of the considerable fee - allegedly £500k per season. Understand?

Graciousness is not pertinent. It's business. Of course there'll be a buyout fee but that's the way the money go round turns.  Wasps have created a financial model that puts them in a position to pay that - if they want to and if Piutau continues to perform and is willing to be turned. It's the financial reality of what Pro 12 clubs are facing in the brave new world.  

You don't think being gracious is relevant? Maybe, maybe not. It does show a lack of class though. I expected better from you. Are you a Wasp fan?

The financial reality that Pro12 are facing? You say that as though the AP's sides were all in rude health, and Ulster were broke. Get a grip.

Enough of this nonsense. I'm away as I don't want to be part of taking this thread away from a great win for Wasps.

Laters.

My family are five generations of Ulster folk if that helps to assuage your sense of being offended.

None intended.

The Financial health of the English league compared to the Pro 12 is healthier overall particularly their income flows.  The results of last season and this season's cup are fair evidence of that, in my view.

My comment was slightly sarcastic...

I couldn't care less how many generations of your family come from here. That isn't pertinent. What is was your response. Now, I did say that I wasn't going to comment further, and so this is my last word on it. You want to compare each others generations on this land, feel free to PM me.

Would Wasps want to spend more than a million on a full back? 500k plus to buy him out of the Ulster deal then 300k a season to keep him. That's a lot of cash and whilst Piatau is a quality player who fits in with the Wasps game plan he isn't key to their performances. He could be replaced by another exciting running full back at a significantly lower figure.

Munchkin wrote:

You don't think being gracious is relevant? Maybe, maybe not. It does show a lack of class though. I expected better from you. Are you a Wasp fan?

The financial reality that Pro12 are facing? You say that as though the AP's sides were all in rude health, and Ulster were broke. Get a grip.

Enough of this nonsense. I'm away as I don't want to be part of taking this thread away from a great win for Wasps.

Laters.

Pot Hale wrote:My family are five generations of Ulster folk if that helps to assuage your sense of being offended.

None intended.

The Financial health of the English league compared to the Pro 12 is healthier overall particularly their income flows.  The results of last season and this season's cup are fair evidence of that, in my view.

Munchkin wrote:My comment was slightly sarcastic...

I couldn't care less how many generations of your family come from here. That isn't pertinent. What is was your response. Now, I did say that I wasn't going to comment further, and so this is my last word on it. You want to compare each others generations on this land, feel free to PM me.

Not sure which bit of your earlier comments were slightly sarcastic. I don't do private messages. If you've got something to say then say it is my view.

Wasps had a great game today and they show great promise for this season.

And don't transfer fees count towards the salary cap?

formerly known as Sam wrote:Would Wasps want to spend more than a million on a full back? 500k plus to buy him out of the Ulster deal then 300k a season to keep him. That's a lot of cash and whilst Piatau is a quality player who fits in with the Wasps game plan he isn't key to their performances. He could be replaced by another exciting running full back at a significantly lower figure.

Fair points. His running cost vs his buyout cost is pertinent. Depends what his contract says.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Would Wasps want to spend more than a million on a full back? 500k plus to buy him out of the Ulster deal then 300k a season to keep him. That's a lot of cash and whilst Piatau is a quality player who fits in with the Wasps game plan he isn't key to their performances. He could be replaced by another exciting running full back at a significantly lower figure.

Why would Charles take a cut of £200k p.a. to play for Wasps?

Heaf wrote:And don't transfer fees count towards the salary cap?

No, only money paid to the player/agent count.

I thought Piutau's rumored contract was €500k (though plenty of posters had claimed this was exaggerated) thus about £350k.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Great work Wasps. Send Dai and Bradley back home please

Thanks Mikey but neither played today.

Ah, he's named in the team via the OP but I'm guessing he pulled out late on with injury or something. Dai is a good coach, all the teams he's coached he has pretty much had to build from the bottom up. Give him a settled squad and you will likely see his full potential. And either way, we could do with both back at teams in Wales to help improve our struggling domestic teams.

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:

Heaf wrote:And don't transfer fees count towards the salary cap?

No, only money paid to the player/agent count.

Transfer fees used to count against salary cap, as did testimonial earnings and financial fines levied against club or player.

Fantastic result for Wasps, and great to see Jackson making a strong contribution at this level.

LondonTiger wrote:

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:

Heaf wrote:And don't transfer fees count towards the salary cap?

No, only money paid to the player/agent count.

Transfer fees used to count against salary cap, as did testimonial earnings and financial fines levied against club or player.

I don't know anything about that as I usually don't pay it much attention. I just remembered a discussion about transfer fees from a couple of years ago.

Current regs:

(i) any transfer fees paid by a Club directly to another rugby club or to an official
foreign rugby union in connection with the transfer of a Player to the
first-mentioned Club shall be disregarded and shall not count as "Salary" for
the purpose of the Regulations

Isn't he on E500k a season, that's roughly £330k. I was just using rough figures to demonstrate the extreme cash layout required for a full back. He isn't a play maker, he isn't a key tactical kicker and he doesn't kick for goal. Whilst his input in the last couple of games has been excellent it wasn't plentiful. The wingers or covering half back dealt with a lot of the kicks and running them back and he didn't enter the line with much line break ability. It was when the game broke up he took off.

Weird point but would Ulster salaries be in £ or €? I suppose it would depend if the source is the IRFU or Ulster?

The deal is reported as £1m over two years. So Wasps would have to pay Ulster £1m to buy out his contract, and then pay Piutau at least £1m for two years for him to break even.

Such is the disparity in finance that a deal couldn't be ruled out. Perhaps the pro12 teams need to build their model on doing such deals with the French and English to survive?

HammerofThunor wrote:Weird point but would Ulster salaries be in £ or €? I suppose it would depend if the source is the IRFU or Ulster?

Have to admit it's something I have no really thought about, but would think the salaries would be in pounds.

The Piutau fee was rumoured to be £500K, €500k and NZ500k. I doubt it's £500k, and think NZ500k would be too low (about £217k), so I think it's €500k, but really don't know.

For negotiating purposes I will say £500k though. Truth is I'm still not convinced he was the wisest signing for us. I would have been happier with any new signing (proven top quality) to all be forwards. So if Wasps do want him, and we get a great return, I won't be too upset as long as we use that money wisely.

The Great Aukster wrote:The deal is reported as £1m over two years. So Wasps would have to pay Ulster £1m to buy out his contract, and then pay Piutau at least £1m for two years for him to break even.

Such is the disparity in finance that a deal couldn't be ruled out. Perhaps the pro12 teams need to build their model on doing such deals with the French and English to survive?

Even discountingthe fact that Ulster posters poo-pooed those reports, £1m cost to buy out the contract would just be the starting point. Ulster would probably take appreciably less rather than keep a player they are unhappy with.

All conjecture mind until either player or club indicate they wish to pursue such an option.

What is undeniable is that Wasps, who got Piutau on a really low price deal, seem to have secured a genuine bargain for this season.

Two weekends of tough Euro rugby and two out standing performances by Simpson, I wonder what faults Pooly will find though...

funnyExiledScot wrote:Fantastic result for Wasps, and great to see Jackson making a strong contribution at this level.

Amen to that. Scotland needs him back very badly.

A mighty result for Wasps which I think a lot of us felt was in the team

I was going to ask how Mullan got on, but then I saw he was against Stevens so a foregone conclusion.

Haskell playing the simply game is good to see, don't ask him to think and he is a very good player, it is when you ask him to play whats in front of him that he has to stop and think for 5 minutes before making the wrong decision and getting turned over.

How as Simpsons passing? He gets a good write up, but passing is not mentioned, to allow Wasps to play an attacking game, I assume it was better than normal or at least what is perceived to be normal.

HammerofThunor wrote:Weird point but would Ulster salaries be in £ or €? I suppose it would depend if the source is the IRFU or Ulster?

Pounds would presume as Ulster are a registered company in Belfast.

Fair play to Wasps - fantastic perfromance.

Tell you what, how about you keep Piatau and give us Hughes and Launchbury?

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:How as Simpsons passing? He gets a good write up, but passing is not mentioned, to allow Wasps to play an attacking game, I assume it was better than normal or at least what is perceived to be normal.

I have always considered Simpson a stunningly good 7s SH. Yesterday however he put in a really good impression of a XVs SH. sometimes he stood at the base of rucks and mauls with his hands on the ball far too long for my liking, but in general his decision making was spot on, his service crisp and reliable and his kicking good. He was a completely different player to the one I have seen visiting Welford Rd.