Superb article on the Pro12 and Europe

by Chunky Norwich Sun 22 Nov 2015, 11:59 am

First topic message reminder :

https://theblitzdefence.wordpress.com/2015/11/22/the-declining-power-of-pro12-in-europe/

We are only a few games in to the new European Champions Cup tournament but already we have seen the best the Pro12 can offer being humbled by their French and English counterparts.

The reigning Pro12 champions Glasgow Warriors lost at home to Northampton Saints, Ulster were humbled at the Kingspan to Saracens while down in Llanelli not even a farcical red card awarded to a Racing Metro player could even up the tie as the Scarlets were defeated to effectively end their hopes in this year’s competition.

The decline in the Pro12

Things are not looking good on the Pro12 front. Last year the Pro12 provided just one team for the quarter finals but we could potentially find ourselves in the situation towards the end of the season where we have an all Anglo-French quarter final line up. This isn’t good for the game in the northern hemisphere.

As the graph below shows, the Pro12 has consistently contributed at least two of the tournament’s quarter finalists – usually Irish teams, with the dominance of Leinster and Munster being augmented by a recently resurgent Ulster.

The other noticeable trend is the drop off in Welsh representation post the 2009/10 season, save for Cardiff Blues’ appearance in the 2011/12 quarter final.

Heineken quarters

To be a strong and popular tournament the European Champions Cup needs as many teams and nations to be competitive as it can. The way the club and regional rugby scene is evolving in Europe we are in serious danger of having the Pro12 teams from the 4 nations being uncompetitive at the top level in Europe.

We will now look at each Pro12 nation and their historical success and future prospects.

Ireland

Ireland has consistently provided strong teams that have had great success in Europe; in fact they have dominated the tournament in certain phases of its history.

Between the 2005/06 season and the 2011/12 season Ireland had 5 of the 7 winners of what was called the Heineken Cup – Munster winning it twice and Leinster 3 times. Ulster joined in on the act in 2012 when an all-Ireland affair in Twickenham saw Leinster take away the trophy for the third time.

But since that day in south west London the Euro bubble seems to have burst for the Irish teams. They have still contributed teams to the knock out stages but the last 3 finals have not contained a single Irish team; just Leinster made it to the quarter finals last year.

This year’s tournament hasn’t started particularly well either. Dai Young’s Wasps defeated Leinster convincingly in their own back yard last week and they followed that up with an away defeat at Bath while Ulster suffered a home defeat to Saracens.

Munster seem to be in a fairly rapid state of decline so they won’t relish having to come out of a group which contains Leicester Tigers and Stade Francais. If there is one team that raises its performances in European competition it is Munster but their form this season to date doesn’t bode well for progression out of the group.

It is conceivable there will be no Irish team in the quarter finals come April next year.

Italy

Since their introduction to the top tier of European rugby, Italian teams have always struggled to be competitive against Europe’s elite.

Benetton Treviso have made the best fist of the Italian clubs but even their record is fairly modest; in 18 full seasons of European rugby they have won just 19 games. A more depressing statistic is that in the last 10 full seasons they have only recorded 5 victories – Ospreys (H 14/15), Ospreys (H 12/13), Biarritz (H 11/12), Perpignan (H 9/10) and NG Dragons (A 7/8).

This season they have again found the going tough with heavy defeats away at Munster (32-7) and at home to Leicester (3-36).

Just a couple of seasons ago there were glimmers of hope that Treviso were starting to put together a team that could be more competitive. In the 2012/13 Pro12 season they finished a commendable 7th out of 12 teams – far above their traditional position in the bottom couple of spots.

Although they only notched up a single win, they came 2 minutes away from beating Leicester at home and put in two commendable performances against Toulouse.

Treviso rugby seemed on the up but a number of factors have conspired to put Treviso back to the bottom of the European pile.

Scotland

Scotland’s European representatives have also found it hard to make a lasting mark in European rugby.

Glasgow Warriors’ recent improvements at the Pro12 level haven’t translated to success at European level and the reigning Pro12 champions already looking unlikely to progress beyond this year’s group stage following a home defeat to Northampton Saints.

Since a solitary quarter final appearance in the early days of the Heineken Cup, Glasgow have failed to get out of their group in the top European competition.

Edinburgh have been slightly more successful with the highlight being a semi-final appearance in the 2011/12 season. This was an exceptional season for the team and represents the only time they have got out of the pool in the last 10 seasons.

They now play in the second tier European Challenge Cup.

Wales

It is a sad reality that the Welsh regions have not been troubling the latter stages of the top European competition since the 2011/12 season when the Cardiff Blues made it out of their pool before being thumped by Leinster 34-3 in the quarter final in Dublin.

Since then, the civil war within the Welsh game has conspired to reduce the strength of the regions to the point where they cannot compete against the powerhouse teams from France, England and Ireland.

It wasn’t that long ago that Cardiff Blues were ranked in the top seeds group for the Heineken Cup (the 2012/13 season) and just losing to Leicester in a penalty goal decided semi-final (2008/09), but with the team now playing in the second tier Challenge Cup (and losing to Sale’s second team at home) a brighter future seems a long way off.

The Ospreys’ zenith came between 2007 and 2010 when they played 3 quarter finals but couldn’t quite make the leap to achieve a semi final spot. Since then their stock has fallen to the point where they finished last season with a comprehensive home defeat to Northampton Saints and followed this up with a humbling defeat to Treviso.

With the French giants Clermont in the Ospreys’ pool this year, progressing to the quarter finals will be a very difficult task.

Llanelli Scarlets have arguably been the best performing Welsh team in Europe over the years with a semi-final spot in the 2006/07 season their highlight. The Scarlets recent performances though have mirrored the pattern in the other Welsh teams – a gradual decline to the point where they are not expected to make the knock out stages of the top European competition.

With two teams in the second tier competition and the Ospreys and Scarlets struggling in the Champions Cup, having a Welsh region get to the quarter finals of the Champions Cup looks unlikely for the foreseeable future.

Can the decline be halted?

There are probably two main factors at play which is driving the changes we are seeing.

The first is that the Pro12 teams have large numbers of players that have been away on international duty and therefore it will take longer for them to integrate back in to the domestic set up. This is particularly true for the likes of Glasgow, Leinster and the Ospreys who effectively contribute their first team squad to international duty.

A constant theme on theblitzdefence articles is the balance between a strong domestic league and ensuring a competitive national team. It is no coincidence that over the past few years the Welsh and Irish national teams have been strong because they have been given prominence over the regional teams, while the opposite is true in England and France.

The second factor, which is more structural, is we are seeing the impact of the asymmetrical distribution of money and resources across the European leagues filtering through to the performances on the field.

The obvious examples are the huge playing squads and resources of the French teams which means they can mop up some of the best players in the world and have benches that are as strong as some teams first XV. It is not surprising that these teams are beating those with much smaller budgets.

Those teams with the money and the ability to generate more income will be in the big markets of France and England. They have the benefit of wealthy investors, large domestic markets and with that comes TV deals and more money.

It is difficult to see the Pro12 teams competing with the growing financial muscle of France and England given their respective populations and wealth, in fact we would go as far to say it will be impossible to compete if the current trends continue.

The only possible means of keeping up with the big nations’ financial clout is the emergence of a UK-Irish league which would include the Pro12 nations and allow them to share in the wealth that comes from the larger market.

Until that time comes (if it ever does) expect to see the continued gradual decline in the competitiveness of the Pro12 teams at the top European table. The ladder is being pulled up and the Pro12 needs to find a way to quickly grab hold before they are left too far behind.

by Guest Thu 26 Nov 2015, 4:22 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Also, look at this:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/scarlets-given-thumbs-up-guinness-10501096#rlabs=8%20rt$category%20p$2

Looks like the league are agreeing that the level of refs in the Pro12 is not good enough.

Scarlets given thumbs up by Guinness Pro12 chiefs after sending video of complaint about Welsh referee Leighton Hodges.

The West Walians were annoyed at the way Hodges handled their first and only defeat of the league campaign against Leinster but believe they have been vindicated.

So lets not say that we do not have problems in the Pro12.

That's projection.

They are not saying that. What they are saying is that Hodges didn't ref the breakdown well enough. As an Ulster fan I know this is a fault with him. He was poor in our game v Edinburgh, a couple of seasons ago.

The Scarlets coach actually went on to say the process was very good.

by LordDowlais Thu 26 Nov 2015, 4:31 pm

Munchkin wrote:That's projection.

Well, I will project this to you. If Scarlets are vindicated with this, we will see a hell of a lot more vindications happening in the Pro12. because the officiating is shiote.

by Guest Thu 26 Nov 2015, 4:35 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:That's projection.

Well, I will project this to you. If Scarlets are vindicated with this, we will see a hell of a lot more vindications happening in the Pro12. because the officiating is shiote.

Scarlets have been vindicated, and the action of Scarlets isn't anything new. It's not a new process, although I can only hope that Hodges learns from it.

by marty2086 Thu 26 Nov 2015, 4:40 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:That's projection.

Well, I will project this to you. If Scarlets are vindicated with this, we will see a hell of a lot more vindications happening in the Pro12. because the officiating is shiote.

The vindication is no good though if Hodges is doing the same thing this weekend and doesn't change the result.

Pivac publically stating this is not beneficial to the league, how can refs be expected to sign up to work in the Pro12 if they are going to be shamed and hung out to dry as Hodges has been?

by LordDowlais Thu 26 Nov 2015, 4:43 pm

Well for me it is the polar opposite. Scarlets now know they have done nothing wrong and they can keep playing the same way they have been. Also, are the people running the league tin hatted for agreeing with everybody on here who were complaining about Hodges on the match thread ? I doubt there will be any apologies given. Whistle

by Guest Thu 26 Nov 2015, 4:45 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:That's projection.

Well, I will project this to you. If Scarlets are vindicated with this, we will see a hell of a lot more vindications happening in the Pro12. because the officiating is shiote.

The vindication is no good though if Hodges is doing the same thing this weekend and doesn't change the result.

Pivac publically stating this is not beneficial to the league, how can refs be expected to sign up to work in the Pro12 if they are going to be shamed and hung out to dry as Hodges has been?

Lam got some abuse for going public, last season. This isn't as controversial, but the same principal applies. Neither should have went public, although I suppose if the process isn't effecting change in the standard of particular referee's, then I can understand the frustration.

by Guest Thu 26 Nov 2015, 4:48 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Well for me it is the polar opposite. Scarlets now know they have done nothing wrong and they can keep playing the same way they have been. Also, are the people running the league tin hatted for agreeing with everybody on here who were complaining about Hodges on the match thread ? I doubt there will be any apologies given.

Nothing tin hatted about it. Hodges isn't a good referee, and I doubt anyone would think his refereeing of the Scarlets game was up to standard.

by Pot Hale Thu 26 Nov 2015, 5:06 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Also, look at this:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/scarlets-given-thumbs-up-guinness-10501096#rlabs=8%20rt$category%20p$2

Looks like the league are agreeing that the level of refs in the Pro12 is not good enough.

Scarlets given thumbs up by Guinness Pro12 chiefs after sending video of complaint about Welsh referee Leighton Hodges.

The West Walians were annoyed at the way Hodges handled their first and only defeat of the league campaign against Leinster but believe they have been vindicated.

So lets not say that we do not have problems in the Pro12.

Interesting article. I note two comments - one in the article from the Scarlets coach, and one from presumably a Welsh fan in the comments section:

“There were a few things where we felt we were a little bit hard done by. For six games, the breakdowns had been refereed a certain way."

Gary Conway (IRFU), Andy Brace, (IRFU) Dudley Phillips, (IRFU) Peter Fitzgibbon, (IRFU) Gary Conway, (IRFU), Ben Whitehouse (WRU) were the refs for these six games that Scarlets were obviously happy with.

"I said at, the beginning of the week about blind Irish refs in the 70s that they afe back worse than ever."

Even when it's a Welsh referee, it seems blind Irish refs are still to blame in some fans' eyes......

by Guest Thu 26 Nov 2015, 5:12 pm

Ha! Good spot. I usually read the comments section, but skipped this one.

The irony of his comment Very Happy

by Pot Hale Thu 26 Nov 2015, 5:13 pm

PS - If Scarlets now think that publicising the outcome of their complaint when it goes their way and deliberately name-shaming the ref is the way to go, then it's going to get very dirty if everyone follows suit.

Presumably, when a complaint is not upheld, the ref can publicise this fact about how the club got it wrong......

by SecretFly Thu 26 Nov 2015, 5:39 pm

Poor Hodges. The Lam being constantly led to the slaughter. You all should be ashamed of yourselves continually criticising a named referee in public. Someone should be fined!

Pivac though, he's just a nice man with legit concerns....................

by Pot Hale Thu 26 Nov 2015, 6:21 pm

SecretFly wrote:Poor Hodges. The Lam being constantly led to the slaughter. You all should be ashamed of yourselves continually criticising a named referee in public. Someone should be fined!

Pivac though, he's just a nice man with legit concerns....................

Course he had legit concerns.

They'd won all their matches up to that point with Irish referees and then suddenly they get Leighton Hodges and he ruined it for them.

It's those blind Irish refs from the 70s, I tells ya. They're back to haunt us.

by Sin é Thu 26 Nov 2015, 6:46 pm

Marshes wrote:
Sin é wrote:
RTE is still getting the numbers. According to that article, 450,000 watched the All Ireland Hurling Final on Sky in the UK in the first season, having built up from about 10K per week from broadcasting the league. That 450,000 compares very well in comparision to other sports (other than soccer).

Sky coverage is excellent - Rachel Wyse, Brian Carney presenting with Jamsie O'Connor & Ollie Canning two excellent pundits. Its different to RTE, but Jamsie O'Connor is an excellent analysist. Rachel is pretty good to.

Hurling is a super sport to watch - its all action. Can only see it getting more popular.

As an aside, there was an exhibition game in Boston betweem Dublin & Galway (11 aside because of the size of the pitch) last week with a gate of 28,000. The massive brawl in the middle has ensured their invitation back from the Red Socks!

In fairness when a brawl gets going in the GAA few other sports do it as well or as frequently! Here is the brawl in question set to some diddley-ey:

I imagine the big crowd in the UK watching it would be ex-pats and Irish pubs. I know in London watching the Tipp Killkeny replay in 2014 was wedged (Arsenal Spurs was on in the other room and going from the hurling to the soccer was like watching paint dry)! Plus I know you can't stream the matches over here from RTE, believe me I've tried. Just don't think it will ever catch on as a sport in the UK above those local club level, no harm in that, but it is a different market and pitch to the Pro 12.

Pubs are usually not included in these figures.

You need the gaago GB pass (if based in UK). 15euro a year. Otherwise its 25 euro a year for season ticket.

https://gaago.rte.ie/

You could have watched the Dublin v Kerry game for 3euro in their 'on demand' option.

by Chunky Norwich Thu 26 Nov 2015, 7:34 pm

Pot Hale wrote:PS - If Scarlets now think that publicising the outcome of their complaint when it goes their way and deliberately name-shaming the ref is the way to go, then it's going to get very dirty if everyone follows suit.

It's the only way they can voice their concerns about this league. By telling it like it is when asked. Just like the Ospreys CEO.

by SecretFly Thu 26 Nov 2015, 9:35 pm

Yeah...Lam voiced his concerns that a ref would directly warn his team that he had the power to make them lose.....
and he (Lam) was almost crucified in these pages.... but then he lives in a country that produced the Irish refs of the 70s, so what does he expect?

by Pot Hale Thu 26 Nov 2015, 11:30 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:PS - If Scarlets now think that publicising the outcome of their complaint when it goes their way and deliberately name-shaming the ref is the way to go, then it's going to get very dirty if everyone follows suit.

It's the only way they can voice their concerns about this league. By telling it like it is when asked. Just like the Ospreys CEO.

No, they weren't voicing concerns about the League. They were announcing the result of a complaint they had made about the performance of a specific referee and drew a contrast with his interpretations about areas of the game with the six refs they had encountered in their six previous games. And they twice made the point in their statement that the process was a good one.

“Anything like that where we think there is a discrepancy, we have got to do our duty and put it through so that, hopefully, if there has been a mistake made it doesn’t get made in the future.

“Everyone’s on the same page. What Ed Morrison and Nigel Whitehouse want to do is have quality refereeing and that’s what we want.

“Part of the process of getting it right is feedback from coaches and then the referees feeding back to us what they think.

“The system we have got is a really good one and it can only help in developing referees if everyone comes on board and uses it the right way.”

You're not related to Private Frazer by any chance, are you?

by geoff999rugby Fri 27 Nov 2015, 9:53 am

LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Again good to get a reply but I see nothing there where Ireland as a Union deserve abuse

Why would Ireland deserve abuse ? When have I ever said that ? I think the Irish system is pretty damn good, but it does not suit a league where there are non union run clubs involved, that's not giving Ireland abuse. Seriously, sometimes I think people make things up just to create the needle on here.

You my not but some of your fellow countrymen do.

I have read on her on more than one occasion that the Pro12 is a joke ands it the Irish who are to blame

by geoff999rugby Fri 27 Nov 2015, 9:55 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Marshes wrote:I think the three big Irish teams had a bit of a unique relationship with the Heineken Cup, as in they rightly so considered it a mark of success to beat the best in Europe, and while they were successful in that pursuit European priority was always going to be the case. The two thing that have changed are the Irish teams are not as competitive as they used to be for whatever reason, and the new European Champions Cup is, for me anyway, less interesting than it used to be.

Those 2 linked?

NO

by LordDowlais Fri 27 Nov 2015, 10:07 am

geoff999rugby wrote:I have read on her on more than one occasion that the Pro12 is a joke ands it the Irish who are to blame

I do not expect you to trawl through every post to find these comments, but I have not seen anybody blame the Irish, or slag their system off.

by geoff999rugby Fri 27 Nov 2015, 10:12 am

Do you have Chunky on ignore ???
For example according to him we fix the fixture list so the Welsh are disadvantaged
- there are 2 others who have posted in a similar vein.

by LordDowlais Fri 27 Nov 2015, 10:20 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Do you have Chunky on ignore ???
For example according to him we fix the fixture list so the Welsh are disadvantaged
- there are 2 others who have posted in a similar vein.

Hang on a minute, you are making things up here to suit your agenda. Chunky has never said the fixtures were fixed. He has said quite often that they are unfair, and that they suit the Irish and their fans, but not once has he said they were fixed, so I think you need to take that one back.

by geoff999rugby Fri 27 Nov 2015, 10:28 am

No way that is exactly what he has claimed

by marty2086 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 10:29 am

LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Do you have Chunky on ignore ???
For example according to him we fix the fixture list so the Welsh are disadvantaged
- there are 2 others who have posted in a similar vein.

Hang on a minute, you are making things up here to suit your agenda. Chunky has never said the fixtures were fixed. He has said quite often that they are unfair, and that they suit the Irish and their fans, but not once has he said they were fixed, so I think you need to take that one back.

Yes that it gives some teams an unfair advantage

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 10:36 am

geoff999rugby wrote:No way that is exactly what he has claimed

I've said that the tv deal suits the Irish overall, and disadvantages other teams, especially the Welsh. Therefore, the Irish do not want to change it.

I have never said that the CEO's of the provinces / IRFU sit down and fix the fixtures. That would be ridiculous.

I'm on record saying everything currently suits the Irish more than any other nation, and they are happy to keep the Pro12 status Quo. And I stand by it.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 10:38 am

Doesn't the Pro 12 have as much tv revenue by the individual tv deals; you'd end up losing more money renegotiating surely?

by SecretFly Fri 27 Nov 2015, 11:34 am

Something is unfair and designed to suit the Irish..... but that doesn't mean the fixtures are fixed?

Great logic. Some people here are terrified of 'libel'.... thus why they always bring up the word when trying to threaten other people to shut up.

Something is unfair and designed to suit the Irish..... but that doesn't mean the fixtures are fixed.

Wonderful creative attempt at claiming something without claiming anything.

We all know what's being said.

by Guest Fri 27 Nov 2015, 11:42 am

LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Do you have Chunky on ignore ???
For example according to him we fix the fixture list so the Welsh are disadvantaged
- there are 2 others who have posted in a similar vein.

Hang on a minute, you are making things up here to suit your agenda. Chunky has never said the fixtures were fixed. He has said quite often that they are unfair, and that they suit the Irish and their fans, but not once has he said they were fixed, so I think you need to take that one back.

Chunky has certainly implied that the fixtures are fixed, as have you.

Chunky implies cheating with his claim the refs are colleague's of the players/coaches. You have also complained about 'potential bias', although without actually claiming bias.

You have stated that the Pro12 is ran by the Irish for the Irish. That is implying that the Pro12 is fixed by the Irish for the Irish.

by LordDowlais Fri 27 Nov 2015, 11:43 am

What is being said is fly, that the Irish want the league to keep running as it is, the rest of us do not, now, I wonder why that is the case ?

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 11:45 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Doesn't the Pro 12 have as much tv revenue by the individual tv deals; you'd end up losing more money renegotiating surely?

The individual tv deals don't necessarily need to be scrapped (although I'd prefer it all to be on sky if the money was right) - it's the individual clauses that are the problem. i.e. - BBC NI always having the same slot every other weekend. S4C always having a Sunday afternoon slot.

That's the problem with the Pro12 though. It's a logistical nightmare to organise UNLESS there are these regular slots invovled. Then, when someone complains about them, we're told "That's what we have, it's a difficult competition to organsie, so shut up."

by LordDowlais Fri 27 Nov 2015, 11:45 am

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Do you have Chunky on ignore ???
For example according to him we fix the fixture list so the Welsh are disadvantaged
- there are 2 others who have posted in a similar vein.

Hang on a minute, you are making things up here to suit your agenda. Chunky has never said the fixtures were fixed. He has said quite often that they are unfair, and that they suit the Irish and their fans, but not once has he said they were fixed, so I think you need to take that one back.

Chunky has certainly implied that the fixtures are fixed, as have you.

Chunky implies cheating with his claim the refs are colleague's of the players/coaches. You have also complained about 'potential bias', although without actually claiming bias.

You have stated that the Pro12 is ran by the Irish for the Irish. That is implying that the Pro12 is fixed by the Irish for the Irish.

Ah Munchkin, I have been waiting for you. Will you please pop over to the European thread and give these same views to your compatriots on that debate. Cheers in advance LD.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 11:49 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Doesn't the Pro 12 have as much tv revenue by the individual tv deals; you'd end up losing more money renegotiating surely?

The individual tv deals don't necessarily need to be scrapped (although I'd prefer it all to be on sky if the money was right) - it's the individual clauses that are the problem. i.e. - BBC NI always having the same slot every other weekend. S4C always having a Sunday afternoon slot.

That's the problem with the Pro12 though. It's a logistical nightmare to organise UNLESS there are these regular slots invovled. Then, when someone complains about them, we're told "That's what we have, it's a difficult competition to organsie, so shut up."

So given that those times are determined by the broadcasters you'd then have to ignore those tv stations and dictate the tiems that games can be shown, and also presumably write in a clause saying the times agreed need to show a fair/even mixture of teams home and away. the more clauses in the contract inevitably means a lower offer for the rights.

by marty2086 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 11:53 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Doesn't the Pro 12 have as much tv revenue by the individual tv deals; you'd end up losing more money renegotiating surely?

The individual tv deals don't necessarily need to be scrapped (although I'd prefer it all to be on sky if the money was right) - it's the individual clauses that are the problem. i.e. - BBC NI always having the same slot every other weekend. S4C always having a Sunday afternoon slot.

That's the problem with the Pro12 though. It's a logistical nightmare to organise UNLESS there are these regular slots invovled. Then, when someone complains about them, we're told "That's what we have, it's a difficult competition to organsie, so shut up."

So given that those times are determined by the broadcasters you'd then have to ignore those tv stations and dictate the tiems that games can be shown, and also presumably write in a clause saying the times agreed need to show a fair/even mixture of teams home and away. the more clauses in the contract inevitably means a lower offer for the rights.

It'd probably mean a big duck egg of a sum from tv revenue as what controller is going to allow someone else to pick their schedule?

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 11:55 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Doesn't the Pro 12 have as much tv revenue by the individual tv deals; you'd end up losing more money renegotiating surely?

The individual tv deals don't necessarily need to be scrapped (although I'd prefer it all to be on sky if the money was right) - it's the individual clauses that are the problem. i.e. - BBC NI always having the same slot every other weekend. S4C always having a Sunday afternoon slot.

That's the problem with the Pro12 though. It's a logistical nightmare to organise UNLESS there are these regular slots invovled. Then, when someone complains about them, we're told "That's what we have, it's a difficult competition to organsie, so shut up."

So given that those times are determined by the broadcasters you'd then have to ignore those tv stations and dictate the tiems that games can be shown, and also presumably write in a clause saying the times agreed need to show a fair/even mixture of teams home and away. the more clauses in the contract inevitably means a lower offer for the rights.

Which only goes to prove how utterly embarrassingly poorly valued the competition is compared to other Pro leagues in the northern hemisphere.

by Guest Fri 27 Nov 2015, 11:59 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Do you have Chunky on ignore ???
For example according to him we fix the fixture list so the Welsh are disadvantaged
- there are 2 others who have posted in a similar vein.

Hang on a minute, you are making things up here to suit your agenda. Chunky has never said the fixtures were fixed. He has said quite often that they are unfair, and that they suit the Irish and their fans, but not once has he said they were fixed, so I think you need to take that one back.

Chunky has certainly implied that the fixtures are fixed, as have you.

Chunky implies cheating with his claim the refs are colleague's of the players/coaches. You have also complained about 'potential bias', although without actually claiming bias.

You have stated that the Pro12 is ran by the Irish for the Irish. That is implying that the Pro12 is fixed by the Irish for the Irish.

Ah Munchkin, I have been waiting for you. Will you please pop over to the European thread and give these same views to your compatriots on that debate. Cheers in advance LD.

No, I won't. I'm not following that thread, and what others say doesn't magically cancel out what you or Chunky have said.

Why would you wait for me? Miss me? I have been commenting less on this thread because it's all been done before, too many times, and is going nowhere. It's a wee bit boring now.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:00 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Doesn't the Pro 12 have as much tv revenue by the individual tv deals; you'd end up losing more money renegotiating surely?

The individual tv deals don't necessarily need to be scrapped (although I'd prefer it all to be on sky if the money was right) - it's the individual clauses that are the problem. i.e. - BBC NI always having the same slot every other weekend. S4C always having a Sunday afternoon slot.

That's the problem with the Pro12 though. It's a logistical nightmare to organise UNLESS there are these regular slots invovled. Then, when someone complains about them, we're told "That's what we have, it's a difficult competition to organsie, so shut up."

So given that those times are determined by the broadcasters you'd then have to ignore those tv stations and dictate the tiems that games can be shown, and also presumably write in a clause saying the times agreed need to show a fair/even mixture of teams home and away. the more clauses in the contract inevitably means a lower offer for the rights.

Which only goes to prove how utterly embarrassingly poorly valued the competition is compared to other Pro leagues in the northern hemisphere.

Yet you think this comp which is poorly valued by the tv companies when added to England will create a mountain of money.

by LordDowlais Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:04 pm

Munchkin wrote:No, I won't. I'm not following that thread, and what others say doesn't magically cancel out what you or Chunky have said.

How convenient. Rolling Eyes

Munchkin wrote:Why would you wait for me? Miss me? I have been commenting less on this thread because it's all been done before, too many times, and is going nowhere. It's a wee bit boring now.

I would be interested to how you would answer your pals and if you would show the same double standards as they are. I would not miss you, that is for sure. Also if this thread is boring you, why are you on here ? go over to the European one and tell your buddies off like you do to me on this one.

by marty2086 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:07 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Doesn't the Pro 12 have as much tv revenue by the individual tv deals; you'd end up losing more money renegotiating surely?

The individual tv deals don't necessarily need to be scrapped (although I'd prefer it all to be on sky if the money was right) - it's the individual clauses that are the problem. i.e. - BBC NI always having the same slot every other weekend. S4C always having a Sunday afternoon slot.

That's the problem with the Pro12 though. It's a logistical nightmare to organise UNLESS there are these regular slots invovled. Then, when someone complains about them, we're told "That's what we have, it's a difficult competition to organsie, so shut up."

So given that those times are determined by the broadcasters you'd then have to ignore those tv stations and dictate the tiems that games can be shown, and also presumably write in a clause saying the times agreed need to show a fair/even mixture of teams home and away. the more clauses in the contract inevitably means a lower offer for the rights.

Which only goes to prove how utterly embarrassingly poorly valued the competition is compared to other Pro leagues in the northern hemisphere.

So Chunky what formula tells you the Pro12 is worth more?

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:07 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Yet you think this comp which is poorly valued by the tv companies when added to England will create a mountain of money.

Yes. Because it would governed properly, marketed better, organsied better, have more attractive fixtures wee in week out etc etc etc.

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:08 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Doesn't the Pro 12 have as much tv revenue by the individual tv deals; you'd end up losing more money renegotiating surely?

The individual tv deals don't necessarily need to be scrapped (although I'd prefer it all to be on sky if the money was right) - it's the individual clauses that are the problem. i.e. - BBC NI always having the same slot every other weekend. S4C always having a Sunday afternoon slot.

That's the problem with the Pro12 though. It's a logistical nightmare to organise UNLESS there are these regular slots invovled. Then, when someone complains about them, we're told "That's what we have, it's a difficult competition to organsie, so shut up."

So given that those times are determined by the broadcasters you'd then have to ignore those tv stations and dictate the tiems that games can be shown, and also presumably write in a clause saying the times agreed need to show a fair/even mixture of teams home and away. the more clauses in the contract inevitably means a lower offer for the rights.

Which only goes to prove how utterly embarrassingly poorly valued the competition is compared to other Pro leagues in the northern hemisphere.

So Chunky what formula tells you the Pro12 is worth more?

Don't understand the question sorry.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:10 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Yet you think this comp which is poorly valued by the tv companies when added to England will create a mountain of money.

Yes. Because it would governed properly, marketed better, organsied better, have more attractive fixtures wee in week out etc etc etc.

Ah but in that they would also be offering less as that attractive system the English have is diluted. They won't have overall say in governance, marketing, organisation. They'll also have less attractive fixtures.

by SecretFly Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:12 pm

LordDowlais wrote:What is being said is fly, that the Irish want the league to keep running as it is, the rest of us do not, now, I wonder why that is the case ?

What is being said is what is being said.
What has been said is what has been said.

The continuing inference is that the Irish not only like things the way they are but have the power to keep things the way they are. Thus the implication is that the other Unions/clubs have no voice, have no say, are all too meek to say they're not happy, are all too afraid to use their equal partnership rights to advance an agenda that would better reflect their wishes.

I say and have said, and will continue to say 'bullschidt' to that logic. The Welsh especially are no wilting flowers. They know perfectly how to stand up for themselves and shout loudly..... where it matters, in the boardrooms of the Pro12 where their power rests. We have all too much evidence of how the Welsh act when they think they've been backed into a corner.

So the argument that the Irish control the Pro12 with an iron fist and no dissention is allowed by the 'underlings' of Italy, Scotland and Wales, is crap and a fantasy.

If the Pro12 wants change - Welsh rugby is in the driving seat, with their partners, for whatever change that might be. Equal votes.

Now if the conclusion is that Welsh regions don't want to be IN the Pro12, then so be it. That opinion has nothing to do with the working of the Pro12. It's for Welsh rugby itself to decide 'we want out, and are getting out'. Nobody, least of all the IRFU, could stop them when current contracts for Pro12 run out.

So, in short: Welsh rugby controls its own destiny within the Pro12 by virtue of the fact that it's an equal partner with an equal vote.

If it wants more than an equal vote because it's not happy with A, B or C, then that's a problem - for them. I doubt that anybody amongst the four partners is going to be selling some of their votes to Welsh Regions.

If the Welsh simply want out. Then that time will come when they can exercise that right to leave.

by marty2086 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:13 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Doesn't the Pro 12 have as much tv revenue by the individual tv deals; you'd end up losing more money renegotiating surely?

The individual tv deals don't necessarily need to be scrapped (although I'd prefer it all to be on sky if the money was right) - it's the individual clauses that are the problem. i.e. - BBC NI always having the same slot every other weekend. S4C always having a Sunday afternoon slot.

That's the problem with the Pro12 though. It's a logistical nightmare to organise UNLESS there are these regular slots invovled. Then, when someone complains about them, we're told "That's what we have, it's a difficult competition to organsie, so shut up."

So given that those times are determined by the broadcasters you'd then have to ignore those tv stations and dictate the tiems that games can be shown, and also presumably write in a clause saying the times agreed need to show a fair/even mixture of teams home and away. the more clauses in the contract inevitably means a lower offer for the rights.

Which only goes to prove how utterly embarrassingly poorly valued the competition is compared to other Pro leagues in the northern hemisphere.

So Chunky what formula tells you the Pro12 is worth more?

Don't understand the question sorry.

Maybe the better question is what factors do you use to assume the Pro12 is worth more

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:13 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Yet you think this comp which is poorly valued by the tv companies when added to England will create a mountain of money.

Yes. Because it would governed properly, marketed better, organsied better, have more attractive fixtures wee in week out etc etc etc.

Ah but in that they would also be offering less as that attractive system the English have is diluted. They won't have overall say in governance, marketing, organisation. They'll also have less attractive fixtures.

Done this a million times haven't we.

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:14 pm

marty2086 wrote:

Maybe the better question is what factors do you use to assume the Pro12 is worth more

worth more than what?

by Guest Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:16 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:No, I won't. I'm not following that thread, and what others say doesn't magically cancel out what you or Chunky have said.

How convenient.

Munchkin wrote:Why would you wait for me? Miss me? I have been commenting less on this thread because it's all been done before, too many times, and is going nowhere. It's a wee bit boring now.

I would be interested to how you would answer your pals and if you would show the same double standards as they are. I would not miss you, that is for sure. Also if this thread is boring you, why are you on here ? go over to the European one and tell your buddies off like you do to me on this one.

So you're implying I'm using that as an excuse? Go back to that thread and count the number of posts by me, and check the last time I posted. You will find that it isn't an excuse. I have no real interest in the discussion.

It's no business of yours why I read whatever threads on here, or why I respond to particular posts. If there was substance to all your claims, it wouldn't be as boring. There isn't, and it's a broken record.

I will let you get back to repeating stuff though. Other things to do right now.

by LordDowlais Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:16 pm

marty2086 wrote:Maybe the better question is what factors do you use to assume the Pro12 is worth more

Well I would be banging the diversity drum for a start. I would also be pointing out the success on the international stage in the 6N that Wales and Ireland have been achieving. There is a lot the Pro12 has to offer, it just needs somebody to grab it by the scruff of the neck and take it kicking and screaming into the professional era.

by marty2086 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:16 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Maybe the better question is what factors do you use to assume the Pro12 is worth more

worth more than what?

Seriously? Are you just trying to be difficult?

What makes you assume the Pro12 should be earning more money than it is from tv revenue

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:18 pm

marty2086 wrote:

What makes you assume the Pro12 should be earning more money than it is from tv revenue

It can't. It's a lame duck. That's what this whole thread is about isn't it?

In a perfect world, Sky Sports would get exclusive rights for £25m. But it's barely worth half that.

by marty2086 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:19 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Maybe the better question is what factors do you use to assume the Pro12 is worth more

Well I would be banging the diversity drum for a start. I would also be pointing out the success on the international stage in the 6N that Wales and Ireland have been achieving. There is a lot the Pro12 has to offer, it just needs somebody to grab it by the scruff of the neck and take it kicking and screaming into the professional era.

What money do they make from diversity and the 6Ns?

by marty2086 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:21 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

What makes you assume the Pro12 should be earning more money than it is from tv revenue

It can't. It's a lame duck. That's what this whole thread is about isn't it?

In a perfect world, Sky Sports would get exclusive rights for £25m. But it's barely worth half that.

25m a year?

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