Superb article on the Pro12 and Europe

by Chunky Norwich Sun 22 Nov 2015, 11:59 am

First topic message reminder :

https://theblitzdefence.wordpress.com/2015/11/22/the-declining-power-of-pro12-in-europe/

We are only a few games in to the new European Champions Cup tournament but already we have seen the best the Pro12 can offer being humbled by their French and English counterparts.

The reigning Pro12 champions Glasgow Warriors lost at home to Northampton Saints, Ulster were humbled at the Kingspan to Saracens while down in Llanelli not even a farcical red card awarded to a Racing Metro player could even up the tie as the Scarlets were defeated to effectively end their hopes in this year’s competition.

The decline in the Pro12

Things are not looking good on the Pro12 front. Last year the Pro12 provided just one team for the quarter finals but we could potentially find ourselves in the situation towards the end of the season where we have an all Anglo-French quarter final line up. This isn’t good for the game in the northern hemisphere.

As the graph below shows, the Pro12 has consistently contributed at least two of the tournament’s quarter finalists – usually Irish teams, with the dominance of Leinster and Munster being augmented by a recently resurgent Ulster.

The other noticeable trend is the drop off in Welsh representation post the 2009/10 season, save for Cardiff Blues’ appearance in the 2011/12 quarter final.

Heineken quarters

To be a strong and popular tournament the European Champions Cup needs as many teams and nations to be competitive as it can. The way the club and regional rugby scene is evolving in Europe we are in serious danger of having the Pro12 teams from the 4 nations being uncompetitive at the top level in Europe.

We will now look at each Pro12 nation and their historical success and future prospects.

Ireland

Ireland has consistently provided strong teams that have had great success in Europe; in fact they have dominated the tournament in certain phases of its history.

Between the 2005/06 season and the 2011/12 season Ireland had 5 of the 7 winners of what was called the Heineken Cup – Munster winning it twice and Leinster 3 times. Ulster joined in on the act in 2012 when an all-Ireland affair in Twickenham saw Leinster take away the trophy for the third time.

But since that day in south west London the Euro bubble seems to have burst for the Irish teams. They have still contributed teams to the knock out stages but the last 3 finals have not contained a single Irish team; just Leinster made it to the quarter finals last year.

This year’s tournament hasn’t started particularly well either. Dai Young’s Wasps defeated Leinster convincingly in their own back yard last week and they followed that up with an away defeat at Bath while Ulster suffered a home defeat to Saracens.

Munster seem to be in a fairly rapid state of decline so they won’t relish having to come out of a group which contains Leicester Tigers and Stade Francais. If there is one team that raises its performances in European competition it is Munster but their form this season to date doesn’t bode well for progression out of the group.

It is conceivable there will be no Irish team in the quarter finals come April next year.

Italy

Since their introduction to the top tier of European rugby, Italian teams have always struggled to be competitive against Europe’s elite.

Benetton Treviso have made the best fist of the Italian clubs but even their record is fairly modest; in 18 full seasons of European rugby they have won just 19 games. A more depressing statistic is that in the last 10 full seasons they have only recorded 5 victories – Ospreys (H 14/15), Ospreys (H 12/13), Biarritz (H 11/12), Perpignan (H 9/10) and NG Dragons (A 7/8).

This season they have again found the going tough with heavy defeats away at Munster (32-7) and at home to Leicester (3-36).

Just a couple of seasons ago there were glimmers of hope that Treviso were starting to put together a team that could be more competitive. In the 2012/13 Pro12 season they finished a commendable 7th out of 12 teams – far above their traditional position in the bottom couple of spots.

Although they only notched up a single win, they came 2 minutes away from beating Leicester at home and put in two commendable performances against Toulouse.

Treviso rugby seemed on the up but a number of factors have conspired to put Treviso back to the bottom of the European pile.

Scotland

Scotland’s European representatives have also found it hard to make a lasting mark in European rugby.

Glasgow Warriors’ recent improvements at the Pro12 level haven’t translated to success at European level and the reigning Pro12 champions already looking unlikely to progress beyond this year’s group stage following a home defeat to Northampton Saints.

Since a solitary quarter final appearance in the early days of the Heineken Cup, Glasgow have failed to get out of their group in the top European competition.

Edinburgh have been slightly more successful with the highlight being a semi-final appearance in the 2011/12 season. This was an exceptional season for the team and represents the only time they have got out of the pool in the last 10 seasons.

They now play in the second tier European Challenge Cup.

Wales

It is a sad reality that the Welsh regions have not been troubling the latter stages of the top European competition since the 2011/12 season when the Cardiff Blues made it out of their pool before being thumped by Leinster 34-3 in the quarter final in Dublin.

Since then, the civil war within the Welsh game has conspired to reduce the strength of the regions to the point where they cannot compete against the powerhouse teams from France, England and Ireland.

It wasn’t that long ago that Cardiff Blues were ranked in the top seeds group for the Heineken Cup (the 2012/13 season) and just losing to Leicester in a penalty goal decided semi-final (2008/09), but with the team now playing in the second tier Challenge Cup (and losing to Sale’s second team at home) a brighter future seems a long way off.

The Ospreys’ zenith came between 2007 and 2010 when they played 3 quarter finals but couldn’t quite make the leap to achieve a semi final spot. Since then their stock has fallen to the point where they finished last season with a comprehensive home defeat to Northampton Saints and followed this up with a humbling defeat to Treviso.

With the French giants Clermont in the Ospreys’ pool this year, progressing to the quarter finals will be a very difficult task.

Llanelli Scarlets have arguably been the best performing Welsh team in Europe over the years with a semi-final spot in the 2006/07 season their highlight. The Scarlets recent performances though have mirrored the pattern in the other Welsh teams – a gradual decline to the point where they are not expected to make the knock out stages of the top European competition.

With two teams in the second tier competition and the Ospreys and Scarlets struggling in the Champions Cup, having a Welsh region get to the quarter finals of the Champions Cup looks unlikely for the foreseeable future.

Can the decline be halted?

There are probably two main factors at play which is driving the changes we are seeing.

The first is that the Pro12 teams have large numbers of players that have been away on international duty and therefore it will take longer for them to integrate back in to the domestic set up. This is particularly true for the likes of Glasgow, Leinster and the Ospreys who effectively contribute their first team squad to international duty.

A constant theme on theblitzdefence articles is the balance between a strong domestic league and ensuring a competitive national team. It is no coincidence that over the past few years the Welsh and Irish national teams have been strong because they have been given prominence over the regional teams, while the opposite is true in England and France.

The second factor, which is more structural, is we are seeing the impact of the asymmetrical distribution of money and resources across the European leagues filtering through to the performances on the field.

The obvious examples are the huge playing squads and resources of the French teams which means they can mop up some of the best players in the world and have benches that are as strong as some teams first XV. It is not surprising that these teams are beating those with much smaller budgets.

Those teams with the money and the ability to generate more income will be in the big markets of France and England. They have the benefit of wealthy investors, large domestic markets and with that comes TV deals and more money.

It is difficult to see the Pro12 teams competing with the growing financial muscle of France and England given their respective populations and wealth, in fact we would go as far to say it will be impossible to compete if the current trends continue.

The only possible means of keeping up with the big nations’ financial clout is the emergence of a UK-Irish league which would include the Pro12 nations and allow them to share in the wealth that comes from the larger market.

Until that time comes (if it ever does) expect to see the continued gradual decline in the competitiveness of the Pro12 teams at the top European table. The ladder is being pulled up and the Pro12 needs to find a way to quickly grab hold before they are left too far behind.

by LordDowlais Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:23 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Maybe the better question is what factors do you use to assume the Pro12 is worth more

Well I would be banging the diversity drum for a start. I would also be pointing out the success on the international stage in the 6N that Wales and Ireland have been achieving. There is a lot the Pro12 has to offer, it just needs somebody to grab it by the scruff of the neck and take it kicking and screaming into the professional era.

What money do they make from diversity and the 6Ns?

Well for a start, you could get advertising in four different countries, the TV rights could be sold to umpteen different broadcasters over four countries. It's things like this that needs looking into. We could drum up interest by touting games as Wales V Scotland or Ireland V Italy, the national pride attracts more people than you would think. Look, I dunno, it is not my area of expertise, but if I can see ways to improve our league, then surely somebody who is payed for this sort of thing can.

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:26 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

What makes you assume the Pro12 should be earning more money than it is from tv revenue

It can't. It's a lame duck. That's what this whole thread is about isn't it?

In a perfect world, Sky Sports would get exclusive rights for £25m. But it's barely worth half that.

25m a year?

Yes. Even with that, there will be large competitior shortfall.

by marty2086 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:37 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

What makes you assume the Pro12 should be earning more money than it is from tv revenue

It can't. It's a lame duck. That's what this whole thread is about isn't it?

In a perfect world, Sky Sports would get exclusive rights for £25m. But it's barely worth half that.

25m a year?

Yes. Even with that, there will be large competitior shortfall.

You really do live in fantasy land, the Celtic Pro12 countries have a combined population of less than 15m, yes theres 60m in Italy but unfortunately rugbys not taken off like we would all love to see there. The GDPs of these countries also tends to be lower than in England and France making the audiences in these countries less valuable to marketers . The French and English audiences also have cities like London and Paris, and their surrounding areas that contain sections of the population that marketers love.

The Pro12 and the clubs can be doing better but there is also many social, cultural and business factors that are outside of their control

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:41 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Yet you think this comp which is poorly valued by the tv companies when added to England will create a mountain of money.

Yes. Because it would governed properly, marketed better, organsied better, have more attractive fixtures wee in week out etc etc etc.

Ah but in that they would also be offering less as that attractive system the English have is diluted. They won't have overall say in governance, marketing, organisation. They'll also have less attractive fixtures.

Done this a million times haven't we.

And it always tails away when you can't argue against logic.

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Yet you think this comp which is poorly valued by the tv companies when added to England will create a mountain of money.

Yes. Because it would governed properly, marketed better, organsied better, have more attractive fixtures wee in week out etc etc etc.

Ah but in that they would also be offering less as that attractive system the English have is diluted. They won't have overall say in governance, marketing, organisation. They'll also have less attractive fixtures.

Done this a million times haven't we.

And it always tails away when you can't argue against logic.

It tails away because my keyboard its getting worn out. I really shouldn't have to repeat myself just because people don't udnerstand. No team will have less attractive fixtures. As I've demostrated countless times. The governance would be in far better hands than is currently for the pro12 teams. You say they'll be offering less, I say they'll be offerring more. And round in the usual circle we go until you accuse me of losing the debate.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:56 pm

So you can't argue against those points fair enough. At least you've seen sense in the end.

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:57 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote: At least you've seen sense in the end.

There ya go.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:58 pm

So you'll stop harping on about a league that isn't going to happen anymore? yay.

by carpet baboon Fri 27 Nov 2015, 12:58 pm

Better governance?
Better governance?

Seriously?

The prl?

Better governance of you like all decisions to be hidden and there own rules broken and go unpunished.

Better governance, comedy gold

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 1:03 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Better governance?
Better governance?

Seriously?

The prl?

Better governance of you like all decisions to be hidden and there own rules broken and go unpunished.

Better governance, comedy gold

£40m v £11.5m

by carpet baboon Fri 27 Nov 2015, 1:04 pm

Your point being?

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 1:09 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Your point being?

Union owned and run domestic pro teams is the wrong structure.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 1:11 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Your point being?

Union owned and run domestic pro teams is the wrong structure.

Ok. So why would the English want to weaken the position they're in to join that?

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 1:11 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Your point being?

Union owned and run domestic pro teams is the wrong structure.

Ok. So why would the English want to weaken the position they're in to join that?

They won't be weakening it.

by carpet baboon Fri 27 Nov 2015, 1:12 pm

Again I was talking about the governance of a imaginary league, that you think will be great. I pointed out that the PRLs governance is a bit of a joke at the moment.
You showed some numbers.
Well done with that reply

by marty2086 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 1:15 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Better governance?
Better governance?

Seriously?

The prl?

Better governance of you like all decisions to be hidden and there own rules broken and go unpunished.

Better governance, comedy gold

£40m v £11.5m

Chunky did you bother reading my points on population and GDP?

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 1:17 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Your point being?

Union owned and run domestic pro teams is the wrong structure.

Ok. So why would the English want to weaken the position they're in to join that?

They won't be weakening it.

Currently the PRL run the league. Any B&I league would include the same people from the Pro 12 bar the Italians who you don't care about. It would encounter the same issues you see in the Pro 12. Why would the English want such a broken (in your eyes) system?

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 1:21 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Your point being?

Union owned and run domestic pro teams is the wrong structure.

Ok. So why would the English want to weaken the position they're in to join that?

They won't be weakening it.

Currently the PRL run the league. Any B&I league would include the same people from the Pro 12 bar the Italians who you don't care about. It would encounter the same issues you see in the Pro 12. Why would the English want such a broken (in your eyes) system?

What issues I see in the Pro12 would it encounter?

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 1:31 pm

You said the current governance, marketing and organisation wasn't properly handled. You also said the fixtures weren't as attractive as Worcester and Sale.

by SecretFly Fri 27 Nov 2015, 1:40 pm

Chunky doesn't want watching his sides play Irish sides. Doing so sends a cold shiver through his spine. Simples. Therefore, the contest that creates that actuality is naturally unviable, worthless and corrupt in his mind, because he prefers watching the AP and pining.

It's love.... unrequited for now. But he wants to be with his one true love. Some might call that stalking, but such an accusation is probably 'libellous'.......

by Marshes Fri 27 Nov 2015, 1:43 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Better governance?
Better governance?

Seriously?

The prl?

Better governance of you like all decisions to be hidden and there own rules broken and go unpunished.

Better governance, comedy gold

£40m v £11.5m

Marty given the figures you provide and knowing the establishment of the two brands the deal the Pro 12 has all in doesn't seem too bad. I think they should strive for more, but I can't see Sky paying £25m for it. They currently pay £18m for La Liga!

by marty2086 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 2:07 pm

Marshes wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Better governance?
Better governance?

Seriously?

The prl?

Better governance of you like all decisions to be hidden and there own rules broken and go unpunished.

Better governance, comedy gold

£40m v £11.5m

Marty given the figures you provide and knowing the establishment of the two brands the deal the Pro 12 has all in doesn't seem too bad. I think they should strive for more, but I can't see Sky paying £25m for it. They currently pay £18m for La Liga!

It is more complicated than I made out but some people don't grasp what is involved in such things. The AP deal as well was an anomaly because BT overspent on the deal to make sure they out did Sky, it actually worked out well for them because viewing figures etc exceeded expectations that's why the deal was renewed early going up to 2021 with a significant increase once the previous deal expires.

The Pro12 probably could and should be earning more, an exclusive deal would do that but I assume the goal is to grow the league by getting it in front of as many people as possible rather than limiting it to Sky. This would help in a few years time when its time for Sky to consider if they want to keep the Pro12, the loss of things like the Champions League will have them wanting more than ever to keep and grow what they have. If the Pro12 is getting decent viewing figures BT will hopefully show an interest which would up the price more.

The league handling their own deals may not be the best approach either but saying that, the La Liga deal you mention was outsourced. Sky and BT both bid with Sky offering a lot more than BT only for the professionals to decide a second round of bidding was needed only for Sky to pull out. Eventually coming back at the 11th hour with the 18m bid, which was less than their original bid. Doh

by Marshes Fri 27 Nov 2015, 2:17 pm

Jeez stolen from under their noses, Sky's La Liga coverage is a huge draw!

I thing exclusivity with Sky at this stage would be seriously damage the accessibility, like you say I think the plan is rightly to build repeat viewers and attendances and then look at the relationship when the contract expires

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 2:36 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You said the current governance, marketing and organisation wasn't properly handled.

Yes. so it'll be a nice change for us.

You also said the fixtures weren't as attractive as Worcester and Sale.

You think Zebre and Treviso are more attractive than Sale and Worcester?

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 2:40 pm

But it wouldn't be a change for you as there would be a movement for the English to the pro 12 way rather than the other way around. I've been told countless times in the past week that it's the various countries that make it interesting.

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 2:51 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:But it wouldn't be a change for you as there would be a movement for the English to the pro 12 way rather than the other way around. I've been told countless times in the past week that it's the various countries that make it interesting.

But we've been told on here by Irish posters that the top 3 Irish sides met with the Bigwigs of the English league to talk about playing each other regularly in a league format.

The English sides would still be playing other English sides [a minimum of] 12 times a year in the format I proposed. But you told me you had read it, so you know this.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 2:55 pm

What's that got to do with the organisational side of any proposed league though? Unless your proposition was that it would be entirely run by the PRL?

by SecretFly Fri 27 Nov 2015, 2:59 pm

Oh yummy!!!! Yes! - "Yes!!!!", says Chunky. Please. Please let that be the proposition!

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:03 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:What's that got to do with the organisational side of any proposed league though? Unless your proposition was that it would be entirely run by the PRL?

I took "movement for the English to the pro 12" as fixture based.

If you mean movement towards pro12 governance, then christ no, that would not be invovled in any new competition. That is the major hurdle that pro domestic rugby up here needs to overcome.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:04 pm

So your proposed new league would be governed solely by the PRL?

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:06 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So your proposed new league would be governed solely by the PRL?

No, it would probably take a similar approach to the current Euro comp.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:08 pm

So the PRL would not have complete control over the league as they do now, it would be shared power between the Scottish, Irish and Welsh. So it would be a move towards Pro 12 style governance for the English and even more politics for the rest?

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So the PRL would not have complete control over the league as they do now, it would be shared power between the Scottish, Irish and Welsh. So it would be a move towards Pro 12 style governance for the English and even more politics for the rest?

No, it would be nothing like he pro12 style of goverance.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:12 pm

What would be the difference exactly? Because it wouldn't be like the English system and would mean the English clubs losing power.

by SecretFly Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:13 pm

Superb article on the Pro12 and Europe - Page 10 1347041234

This is getting interesting. Waiting finally to hear Chunky's masterplan for admin - and why everyone would be perfectly happy.

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:15 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:What would be the difference exactly? Because it wouldn't be like the English system and would mean the English clubs losing power.

It wouldn't be run by Unions. It would be run by the PRL, PRW and whichever other clubs have the nous and Love sacks to take club rugby forward.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:18 pm

You think it's likely the Scottish and Irish wouldn't want a say in how this is run? Why would the English want to share power with the Welsh but not them 2? Why would the Irish model change?

by SecretFly Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:18 pm

Aha! So the Irish would have no power.......

...the crafty bugger. I'd never have guessed that was his final solution..... Whistle

by SecretFly Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:24 pm

7&1/2 , could you ask Chunky, when you get a moment, how many votes at the administration table PRW would get (with four Regions) and how many would PRL get (with 12 clubs)?

No need to ask him about us...we're just guests who'll be doing what we're told obviously.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:26 pm

Will do fly, don't get bitter as 'But we've been told on here by Irish posters that the top 3 Irish sides met with the Bigwigs of the English league to talk about playing each other regularly in a league format.'

The Irish obviously wanted to lay the foundations but then demand they get no say in the new league. 'No, no, no please give that power to the Welsh' they would have said.

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:30 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You think it's likely the Scottish and Irish wouldn't want a say in how this is run? Why would the English want to share power with the Welsh but not them 2? Why would the Irish model change?

Of course they would like a say. I would estimate that the 2 Scottish clubs and 4 Irish clubs would be welcome as club entities to discuss governance of any new competition formed.

I would expect comemrical / exec decisions would run as they do now in the EPRC, with a voting exec committee or whatever it is.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:33 pm

So the irish would pass those votes onto their Union, not sure what the Scottish would do? What do they do currently? And how would that involve anything but a loss of power for the English?

by Chunky Norwich Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:39 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So the irish would pass those votes onto their Union, not sure what the Scottish would do? What do they do currently? And how would that involve anything but a loss of power for the English?

Everybody would be on board with the English. Apart from the Irish I expect. I suppose in a pure sense of numbers, there's more than the English invovled, so I get where you're coming from. But the key is that this league would be run by clubs that have their best interests at heart. That is not the case currently, for the league my team plays in.

I can see why you are threatened by the idea. I can see why you would question why the English would fix something that ain't broke. But for me it's the only solution. And I think it would be good for the English long term too in terms of finance, which nearly always comes first.

by marty2086 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:40 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So the irish would pass those votes onto their Union, not sure what the Scottish would do? What do they do currently? And how would that involve anything but a loss of power for the English?

Everybody would be on board with the English. Apart from the Irish I expect. I suppose in a pure sense of numbers, there's more than the English invovled, so I get where you're coming from. But the key is that this league would be run by clubs that have their best interests at heart. That is not the case currently, for the league my team plays in.

I can see why you are threatened by the idea. I can see why you would question why the English would fix something that ain't broke. But for me it's the only solution. And I think it would be good for the English long term too in terms of finance, which nearly always comes first.

You've held discussions with everybody to come to this conclusion?

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:41 pm

And it wouldn't be in any new league as you'd still have the Irish Union. If you're saying in your ideal world the English would be given the majority of votes fair enough. Would the Welsh, Scottish and Irish be happy with that?

Your last point is the one I've banged on about. No need for the English to risk anything.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Nov 2015, 3:42 pm

Come on marty the Scots, Irish and Welsh love being told what to do by the English; famous for it and has never caused any issues before.

by Pot Hale Sat 28 Nov 2015, 12:03 pm

Wow - I am really ~~disappointed~~ amazed that the much trumpeted plan about a B&I league falls to pieces in the space of about five insightful questions from one English fan.

Could we get 7.5 involved in any Pro12 wrangles from now on? It would save an awful lot of time and tedious bickering from the Welsh, Irish and Scottish (WIS) fans.

When you add English fans into the mix, it becomes WISE.

Fair play 7.5 - you're now officially the Ian Ritchie of 606v2.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 28 Nov 2015, 12:15 pm

One step away from the Rob Andrew of 606, then I've really made it!

by Pot Hale Sat 28 Nov 2015, 12:43 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:One step away from the Rob Andrew of 606, then I've really made it!

I think you should be aiming for Mark McCafferty actually... that would keep things bubbling nicely. Smile

by **profitius** Sat 28 Nov 2015, 3:37 pm

marty2086 wrote:
wayne wrote:
profitius wrote:How much are sky paying for the Pro 12 coverage? Is it near the £4m they're playing the bland Thierry Henry every year?
Profitius £5M, which is a lot more than all the other broadcasters put together.

The regions back in 2013 said that the primary rights, which I take they meant Sky, was worth £5.5m and secondary rights '£3.2m from Welsh television' with an 'estimated contribution from Irish TV only £910,000 and from Scottish TV only £140,000?' that's £4.2m though it doesn't include Italian figures which mightn't be that much

The weird world of sports coverage!

Those Irish numbers can be explained by a lack of competition in the Irish TV market for rugby. If the Pro 12 can get more competition in Ireland, Italy and Scotland those number will rise sharply. Competition is the key. TV3 just outbid RTÉ for 6 nations coverage from 2018 on. They bid €22m for 4 years. They've hardly ever shown an interest in rugby although they just had a good world cup in terms of viewing figures. Maybe they might enter the market for the Pro 12 in future?

Still, the unions are the main bread winners for the Pro 12 teams, maybe with the exception of Wales. The unions seem to make more money every year and interestingly - correct me if I'm wrong - all the celtic unions are close to paying off their stadium debts.

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