6N 2016: Ireland v Wales, 7 February

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IRELAND v WALES
7 February 2016
KO: 15:00 GMT
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Live on RTE, ITV, FR2, DMAX, BBC(H)

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

123 Played 123
52 Won 67
4 Drawn 4
67 Lost 52
1,365 Points 1,461

B. Recent Form

29 August 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
10 – 16 to Wales

8 August 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
21 – 35 to Ireland

14 March 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 16 to Wales

8 February 2014
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
26 – 3 to Ireland

2 February 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
22 – 30 to Ireland

C. Teams

IRELAND

S Zebo; A Trimble, J Payne, R Henshaw, K Earls; J Sexton, C Murray; J McGrath, R Best (capt), N White; D Toner, M McCarthy; CJ Stander, T O’Donnell, J Heaslip.

Replacements: S Cronin, J Cronin, T Furlong, D Ryan, R Ruddock, K Marmion, I Madigan, D Kearney.

WALES

G Anscombe; G North, J Davies, J Roberts, T James; D Biggar, G Davies; R Evans, S Baldwin, S Lee, L Charteris, A-W Jones, S Warburton (capt), J Tipuric, T Faletau.

Replacements: K Owens, G Jenkins, T Francis, B Davies, D Lydiate, L Williams, R Priestland, A Cuthbert

He's the only guy there in the squad who qualified on residency. I completely take your point on his 'Welshness'. If anything the Wales squad shows how a simple black and white rule doesn't tell the whole story. I

Francis, North et al were asked first by Wales to play for them. Simple.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's the only guy there in the squad who qualified on residency. I completely take your point on his 'Welshness'. If anything the Wales squad shows how a simple black and white rule doesn't tell the whole story. I

OK, if you take 18yrs living here as residency, I personally see that as being part of the country. The kid was about 6yrs old when he came here. He has gone through all the Welsh systems, he is not a player who has come here in his twenty's spent three years here and then got capped.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Francis, North et al were asked first by Wales to play for them. Simple.

North has lived in Wales since he was 1yr old. You are getting silly now, I suggest you leave it there.

There's a lovely irony about a thread discussing Irish rugby moving on to representing a country that isn't your birth place or where you were raised.

I mean, it doesn't bother Rory Best, for example. If he was a soccer player he would be playing for Northern Ireland, his country.

LD, Faletau qualifies on residency yes. Perfectly fine to do so, see countless examples. Like I said you'd be hard pressed to find someone who finds that example similar to Hughes who will qualify for England in June (I believe) even though the qualification is the same.

The North thing is true as well but he also qualified for England. Gatland was very keen to get him capped to stop his head being turned. I'm not sure how either point is silly.

PhilBB wrote:There's a lovely irony about a thread discussing Irish rugby moving on to representing a country that isn't your birth place or where you were raised.

I mean, it doesn't bother Rory Best, for example. If he was a soccer player he would be playing for Northern Ireland, his country.

That has it round the wrong way and misrepresents how Rory thinks of the honour.

We are and always have been a single country with regard to rugby.
Rory Best will tell you he is representing his country

No 7&1/2 wrote:LD, Faletau qualifies on residency yes. Perfectly fine to do so, see countless examples. Like I said you'd be hard pressed to find someone who finds that example similar to Hughes who will qualify for England in June (I believe) even though the qualification is the same.

The North thing is true as well but he also qualified for England. Gatland was very keen to get him capped to stop his head being turned. I'm not sure how either point is silly.

His head was never going to be turned. He's a Welsh speaker.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The North thing is true as well but he also qualified for England. Gatland was very keen to get him capped to stop his head being turned. I'm not sure how either point is silly.

Because when a person has lived in said country all their life, gone through all the age grade systems and then get capped, I do not think they are time serving players.

Time serving players, are players, who play all their life in another country, go through another countries age grade systems, who come over to another country, live here for three years and get capped.

geoff999rugby wrote:
We are and always have been a single country with regard to rugby.
Rory Best will tell you he is representing his country

Ireland is only a single country with regards to rugby. Best votes for a different parliament, is paid in a different currency and, by fact, lives in a different country.

None of that is contestable.

Marshes wrote:

True Raven wrote:Anyway the initial commment by Ruby was intended for those who have qualified on residency purposes eg Stander and Payne

I don't think it was I think he was talking about Ruddock as he referred to playing against your own country in this thread.

Also I dunno where someone starts and finishes learning their rugby, youth level? Academy? A teams? Age grade nationals?

I think he meant CJ Stander going on a summer tour to South Africa but i could be wrong

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:LD, Faletau qualifies on residency yes. Perfectly fine to do so, see countless examples. Like I said you'd be hard pressed to find someone who finds that example similar to Hughes who will qualify for England in June (I believe) even though the qualification is the same.

The North thing is true as well but he also qualified for England. Gatland was very keen to get him capped to stop his head being turned. I'm not sure how either point is silly.

His head was never going to be turned. He's a Welsh speaker.

I think we both know it's never that simple.

No 7&1/2 wrote:
I think we both know it's never that simple.

If you knew anything about him, his upbringing and his mother, you'd know it was that simple.

PhilBB wrote:Ireland is only a single country with regards to rugby. Best votes for a different parliament, is paid in a different currency and, by fact, lives in a different country. 

phil, can i suggest you steer clear of that subject please. Ireland is a totally different kettle of fish when it comes to rugby, and we should not get political on a rugby forum.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The North thing is true as well but he also qualified for England. Gatland was very keen to get him capped to stop his head being turned. I'm not sure how either point is silly.

Because when a person has lived in said country all their life, gone through all the age grade systems and then get capped, I do not think they are time serving players.

Time serving players, are players, who play all their life in another country, go through another countries age grade systems, who come over to another country, live here for three years and get capped.

Fair enough. I think we both believe the same thing, but that's how he qualified.

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
We are and always have been a single country with regard to rugby.
Rory Best will tell you he is representing his country

Ireland is only a single country with regards to rugby. Best votes for a different parliament, is paid in a different currency and, by fact, lives in a different country.

None of that is contestable.

Unlike you I have spoken to Rory Best - trust me when asked he will tell you he is representing his country and proud of it.
As you yourself say when it comes to rugby we are a single country.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough. I think we both believe the same thing, but that's how he qualified.

Isn't George North's mother Welsh anyway ?

geoff999rugby wrote:

Unlike you I have spoken to Rory Best - trust me when asked he will tell you he is representing his country and proud of it.
As you yourself say when it comes to rugby we are a single country.

Because it's rugby, it's the only county he can represent. That's why he's representing his country. And why, rightly, he is proud of it.

Is it right? No, it isn't, but there we go.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
I think we both know it's never that simple.

If you knew anything about him, his upbringing and his mother, you'd know it was that simple.

Fair enough. Warburton then. The general example stands. If there are young(ish) players available to multiple countries get them capped quick. It's generally the first option they will choose.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough. I think we both believe the same thing, but that's how he qualified.

Isn't George North's mother Welsh anyway ?

And a Welsh speaker.

LordDowlais wrote:

phil, can i suggest you steer clear of that subject please. Ireland is a totally different kettle of fish when it comes to rugby, and we should not get political on a rugby forum.

It's not political to suggest that Northern Ireland is a separate country. It's just a statement of fact.

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:there is only one reason he's chosen to play for Wales

Why is that then ? 

It could not be because England are bursting with quality tightheads, because they aren't.

They don't have to be 'quality', they just have to have more potential than him

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
I think we both know it's never that simple.

If you knew anything about him, his upbringing and his mother, you'd know it was that simple.

Fair enough. Warburton then. The general example stands. If there are young(ish) players available to multiple countries get them capped quick. It's generally the first option they will choose.

Sam Warburton was born in Cardiff, FFS, what are you going on about ? 

Look, you will have to explain your point, because you say you agree about time serving players, yet you are saying about Warburton who was born in Wales, but has English parents, you are confusing me.

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
We are and always have been a single country with regard to rugby.
Rory Best will tell you he is representing his country

Ireland is only a single country with regards to rugby. Best votes for a different parliament, is paid in a different currency and, by fact, lives in a different country.

None of that is contestable.

Its not that straight forward because he could technically be an Irish citizen if he wanted to, all NI citizens are eligible for an Irish passport, also he is employed by an Irish company (IRFU central contract) so may even be paid in Euros. I work with a lot of Northern Irish people who live in NI but work either remotely or in Dublin and commute and they are paid in Euros.

You don't have to even be an Irish citizen to vote in Irish dail (parliament) elections. British citizens can actually vote in these elections meaning Best could vote in Irish elections if he wanted to. Source

It is possible to live in NI and exist as an Irish person and not Northern Irish (British) if you want to. However, in any case I think some players see themselves as British others Irish others a mix of both but as far as I know they are all proud to represent Ireland whatever your definition of that word may be.

Paradoxically it tends not to be Ulster players that have identity issues when it comes to the Ireland team. Players from a certain other province struggle more with their allegiance to the Ireland team over their province.

lostinwales wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:there is only one reason he's chosen to play for Wales

Why is that then ? 

It could not be because England are bursting with quality tightheads, because they aren't.

They don't have to be 'quality', they just have to have more potential than him

Again, who are these players you are talking about ?

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
We are and always have been a single country with regard to rugby.
Rory Best will tell you he is representing his country

Ireland is only a single country with regards to rugby.

Some of it is contestable. Rory McIlroy is representing Ireland rather than the UK in the Olympics. Paddy Barnes (Belfast) has also represented Ireland at the Olympics. It's fair to say the island of Ireland can act as a single country in not only rugby, but in the biggest sporting event in the world too.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
I think we both know it's never that simple.

If you knew anything about him, his upbringing and his mother, you'd know it was that simple.

Fair enough. Warburton then. The general example stands. If there are young(ish) players available to multiple countries get them capped quick. It's generally the first option they will choose.

Sam Warburton was born in Cardiff, FFS, what are you going on about ? 

Look, you will have to explain your point, because you say you agree about time serving players, yet you are saying about Warburton who was born in Wales, but has English parents, you are confusing me.

The original comment for that was Francis who also doesn't qualify on residency but chose Wales as Warburton did (after supporting England growing up) and reason tehy did so. For me the big swaying factor was that Wales under Gatland have targeted dual qualified players well, early before they are on Englands radar and convinced them with the arm around the shoulder etc. It's more a criticism of England to be honest however it would be mighty hard to tie them all down to us (too many options).

GunsGerms wrote:
Its not that straight forward because he could technically be an Irish citizen if he wanted to, all NI citizens are eligible for an Irish passport, also he is employed by an Irish company (IRFU central contract) so may even be paid in Euros. I work with a lot of Northern Irish people who live in NI but work either remotely or in Dublin and commute and they are paid in Euros.

You don't have to even be an Irish citizen to vote in Irish dail (parliament) elections. British citizens can actually vote in these elections meaning Best could vote in Irish elections if he wanted to. Source

It is possible to live in NI and exist as an Irish person and not Northern Irish (British) if you want to.

Oh, I appreciate the grey areas. But I think that you've also shown there are two separate countries.

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:there is only one reason he's chosen to play for Wales

Why is that then ? 

It could not be because England are bursting with quality tightheads, because they aren't.

They don't have to be 'quality', they just have to have more potential than him

Again, who are these players you are talking about ?

Cole, Wilson, Thomas, Brookes, Hill, the other (Scottish)Wilson.

kunu wrote:
Some of it is contestable. Rory McIlroy is representing Ireland rather than the UK in the Olympics. Paddy Barnes (Belfast) has also represented Ireland at the Olympics. It's fair to say the island of Ireland can act as a single country in not only rugby, but in the biggest sporting event in the world too.

By choice. And there being a choice indicates there are two countries.

That's not really contestable, is it?

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Unlike you I have spoken to Rory Best - trust me when asked he will tell you he is representing his country and proud of it.
As you yourself say when it comes to rugby we are a single country.

Because it's rugby, it's the only county he can represent. That's why he's representing his country. And why, rightly, he is proud of it.

Is it right? No, it isn't, but there we go.

Many people here will tell you they are Irish not British
Many people here regard Ireland as there country
Many people here carry Irish passports and would never carry British ones

Our political situation is unusual and we accommodate two not one nationality within our Province.
Given this unusual situation it is not unreasonable to understand that sporting wise (soccer is the one exception) Ireland is one country.

If you are going to use the purely political criteria - N.Ireland, England, Wales, Scotland - non of them are sovereign countries

No 7&1/2 wrote:The original comment for that was Francis who also doesn't qualify on residency but chose Wales as Warburton did (after supporting England growing up) and reason tehy did so. For me the big swaying factor was that Wales under Gatland have targeted dual qualified players well, early before they are on Englands radar and convinced them with the arm around the shoulder etc. It's more a criticism of England to be honest however it would be mighty hard to tie them all down to us (too many options).

Look, you are talking nonsense. Players like Sam Warburton, George North, John Davies, all chose to play for Wales, because they were either born here, or they grew up here, not because Gatland convinced them. 

Do you realise how silly that might sound ?

Yes these people might be potential DC, but they consider themselves WELSH, nobody had to get in there first and convince them to be Welsh, they already were Welsh.

Check Warburtons wiki page.

kunu wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
We are and always have been a single country with regard to rugby.
Rory Best will tell you he is representing his country

Ireland is only a single country with regards to rugby.  

Some of it is contestable. Rory McIlroy is representing Ireland rather than the UK in the Olympics. Paddy Barnes (Belfast) has also represented Ireland at the Olympics. It's fair to say the island of Ireland can act as a single country in not only rugby, but in the biggest sporting event in the world too.

The only sport that doesn't encompass the entire island as one is football. All other sports are under the one union.

I'm Welsh not British but I don't seem to have an option constitutionally

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The original comment for that was Francis who also doesn't qualify on residency but chose Wales as Warburton did (after supporting England growing up) and reason tehy did so. For me the big swaying factor was that Wales under Gatland have targeted dual qualified players well, early before they are on Englands radar and convinced them with the arm around the shoulder etc. It's more a criticism of England to be honest however it would be mighty hard to tie them all down to us (too many options).

Look, you are talking nonsense. Players like Sam Warburton, George North, John Davies, all chose to play for Wales, because they were either born here, or they grew up here, not because Gatland convinced them. 

Do you realise how silly that might sound ?

Yes these people might be potential DC, but they consider themselves WELSH, nobody had to get in there first and convince them to be Welsh, they already were Welsh.

Check Warburtons wiki page.

Francis is Welsh?

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Cole, Wilson, Thomas, Brookes, Hill, the other (Scottish)Wilson.

Are these ALL first team regulars for their clubs. Also, Cole is already established, and he ain't that good either, Wilson is already established but he is pretty good. I have not here'd of the other sorry.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The original comment for that was Francis who also doesn't qualify on residency but chose Wales as Warburton did (after supporting England growing up) and reason tehy did so. For me the big swaying factor was that Wales under Gatland have targeted dual qualified players well, early before they are on Englands radar and convinced them with the arm around the shoulder etc. It's more a criticism of England to be honest however it would be mighty hard to tie them all down to us (too many options).

Look, you are talking nonsense. Players like Sam Warburton, George North, John Davies, all chose to play for Wales, because they were either born here, or they grew up here, not because Gatland convinced them. 

Do you realise how silly that might sound ?

Yes these people might be potential DC, but they consider themselves WELSH, nobody had to get in there first and convince them to be Welsh, they already were Welsh.

Check Warburtons wiki page.

Francis is Welsh?

Where have I mentioned Francis ? 

I said earlier that you had a good case with him, although he is not time serving, he has a Welsh grandparent, which I admit is bollox.

PhilBB wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
Its not that straight forward because he could technically be an Irish citizen if he wanted to, all NI citizens are eligible for an Irish passport, also he is employed by an Irish company (IRFU central contract) so may even be paid in Euros. I work with a lot of Northern Irish people who live in NI but work either remotely or in Dublin and commute and they are paid in Euros.

You don't have to even be an Irish citizen to vote in Irish dail (parliament) elections. British citizens can actually vote in these elections meaning Best could vote in Irish elections if he wanted to. Source

It is possible to live in NI and exist as an Irish person and not Northern Irish (British) if you want to.

Oh, I appreciate the grey areas. But I think that you've also shown there are two separate countries.

Agreed but you need to accept to some there is just one for all intents and purposes when it comes to their lives and equally you can operate as if there is just one if you wish such is the unique political nature of the region.

I'm afraid to say that players will think of their careers. these guys grow up with a parent of either nationality, they have the option you've got to get there early. I think you want your plaeyrs to be overtly Welsh but it's a complicated choice for a lot of young guys. It's not just a case of I'm Welsh, I'm English, I'm Australian. It's what's best for my professional career.

Can we please leave the Northern Irish/REP Irish nonsense off this forum, it will descend into a place where none of us would like to go.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The original comment for that was Francis who also doesn't qualify on residency but chose Wales as Warburton did (after supporting England growing up) and reason tehy did so. For me the big swaying factor was that Wales under Gatland have targeted dual qualified players well, early before they are on Englands radar and convinced them with the arm around the shoulder etc. It's more a criticism of England to be honest however it would be mighty hard to tie them all down to us (too many options).

Look, you are talking nonsense. Players like Sam Warburton, George North, John Davies, all chose to play for Wales, because they were either born here, or they grew up here, not because Gatland convinced them. 

Do you realise how silly that might sound ?

Yes these people might be potential DC, but they consider themselves WELSH, nobody had to get in there first and convince them to be Welsh, they already were Welsh.

Check Warburtons wiki page.

Francis is Welsh?

Where have I mentioned Francis ? 

I said earlier that you had a good case with him, although he is not time serving, he has a Welsh grandparent, which I admit is bollox.

Because it was down to players with a choice. A career choice.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm afraid to say that players will think of their careers. these guys grow up with a parent of either nationality, they have the option you've got to get there early. I think you want your plaeyrs to be overtly Welsh but it's a complicated choice for a lot of young guys. It's not just a case of I'm Welsh, I'm English, I'm Australian. It's what's best for my professional career.

Not if you are patriotic to your country all your life it isn't. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Wasn't Ruddock born in Dublin though so how is he playing against his own Country?

Born in Dublin of an Irish mother and went to an Irish University so I don't think so

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because it was down to players with a choice. A career choice.

Yes, but the frig has that got to do with time serving players ?

LordDowlais wrote:Can we please leave the Northern Irish/REP Irish nonsense off this forum, it will descend into a place where none of us would like to go.

Understood - just don't tell us we are not Irish and things will be fine

PhilBB wrote:

kunu wrote:
Some of it is contestable. Rory McIlroy is representing Ireland rather than the UK in the Olympics. Paddy Barnes (Belfast) has also represented Ireland at the Olympics. It's fair to say the island of Ireland can act as a single country in not only rugby, but in the biggest sporting event in the world too.

By choice. And there being a choice indicates there are two countries.

That's not really contestable, is it?

I don't think many are under any illusions with regard to there being a border running through the island of Ireland. You said it wasn't contestable that Ireland only acts as a single country in rugby. That's not the case. There may be a choice involved for olympic athletes, but nonetheless, the island of Ireland can and does act as a single country in the competition. Not that any of this is relevant, I just couldn't resist challenging an instance of "none of that is contestable" .

geoff999rugby wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Can we please leave the Northern Irish/REP Irish nonsense off this forum, it will descend into a place where none of us would like to go.

Understood - just don't tell us we are not Irish and things will be fine

You are all Irish, some of you are Northern Irish, and some of you are REP Irish. It's not hard to fathom out, it is sport, politics have no place in sport, if you can get past the politics then the Irish national rugby situation is a piece of pee to understand.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because it was down to players with a choice. A career choice.

Yes, but the frig has that got to do with time serving players ?

Nothing it's in response to a comment you made on Francis.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The original comment for that was Francis who also doesn't qualify on residency but chose Wales as Warburton did (after supporting England growing up) and reason tehy did so. For me the big swaying factor was that Wales under Gatland have targeted dual qualified players well, early before they are on Englands radar and convinced them with the arm around the shoulder etc. It's more a criticism of England to be honest however it would be mighty hard to tie them all down to us (too many options).

Look, you are talking nonsense. Players like Sam Warburton, George North, John Davies, all chose to play for Wales, because they were either born here, or they grew up here, not because Gatland convinced them. 

Do you realise how silly that might sound ?

Yes these people might be potential DC, but they consider themselves WELSH, nobody had to get in there first and convince them to be Welsh, they already were Welsh.

Check Warburtons wiki page.

Francis is Welsh?

He's from Yorkshire. I assume that seeing as the county of his birth does not have its own international team he decided to go play for an alternative for which he has a tenuous connection.

Alternatively, despite probably never having been there until his 1st training session the stories his granny told him made such an impact that he decided that there was only one international team he could play for.

All this is irrelevant. He didn't feel he was getting the recognition he might in the English system and it just so happened that Wales were short on tight heads and offered him a chance that was available to him through a granny. In time we'll see if he's a better long term option than Hill or one of the others (Sinckler?) but England obviously gambled he would not be. I think making the transition from club to international rugby is probably harder for props than for any other position, and it usually takes time to make that transition successfully, and I'd suggest that in his case he has hardly set the world alight so far.

Cole is a rare example of someone who seemed to fit international rugby from day one. You may not rate him and there is plenty of debate over his current and more recent form, but he was one of the best TH props around a few years back.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm afraid to say that players will think of their careers. these guys grow up with a parent of either nationality, they have the option you've got to get there early. I think you want your plaeyrs to be overtly Welsh but it's a complicated choice for a lot of young guys. It's not just a case of I'm Welsh, I'm English, I'm Australian. It's what's best for my professional career.

Not if you are patriotic to your country all your life it isn't. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Not a straight choice for a lot of these players with options. It's their livelihood not patriotism.