6N 2016: Ireland v Wales, 7 February

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IRELAND v WALES
7 February 2016
KO: 15:00 GMT
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Live on RTE, ITV, FR2, DMAX, BBC(H)

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

123 Played 123
52 Won 67
4 Drawn 4
67 Lost 52
1,365 Points 1,461

B. Recent Form

29 August 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
10 – 16 to Wales

8 August 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
21 – 35 to Ireland

14 March 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 16 to Wales

8 February 2014
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
26 – 3 to Ireland

2 February 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
22 – 30 to Ireland

C. Teams

IRELAND

S Zebo; A Trimble, J Payne, R Henshaw, K Earls; J Sexton, C Murray; J McGrath, R Best (capt), N White; D Toner, M McCarthy; CJ Stander, T O’Donnell, J Heaslip.

Replacements: S Cronin, J Cronin, T Furlong, D Ryan, R Ruddock, K Marmion, I Madigan, D Kearney.

WALES

G Anscombe; G North, J Davies, J Roberts, T James; D Biggar, G Davies; R Evans, S Baldwin, S Lee, L Charteris, A-W Jones, S Warburton (capt), J Tipuric, T Faletau.

Replacements: K Owens, G Jenkins, T Francis, B Davies, D Lydiate, L Williams, R Priestland, A Cuthbert

 the Vunipolas.


They must be the most multi-cultural Englishmen I have ever seen, Tongan, Welsh accent, and English.

What you mean that you don't consider them English but they chose to represent England? Well golly gosh that appears to be backing my original point.

No 7&1/2 wrote:If Wales hadn't have been intetested in North at that time and England had been are you 100% sure he'd have said I'll wait for my chance?

Why are you saying things that make you look silly ?

George North has lived in Wales since before his 1st birthday, he went to a Welsh speaking school, he speaks fluent Welsh, he has been interviewed and said he is Welsh, and he grew up dreaming of playing for Wales, but you seem to think if England came calling he might have opted for them ? 

It's a good thing that Gatland got hold of him when he did, otherwise he would be English by now.

For the second time I think Francis is English (and in all honesty I suspect everyone does) and yet he plays for Wales. Yes I think if England had come calling for North early doors he would have had a hard decision to make. Rugby as a career is a short one.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes I think if England had come calling for North early doors he would have had a hard decision to make.

I'm sure players like Francis grew up dreaming of England but when push comes to shove and you have an offer on the table and nothing from another party it alters your perceptions. Like you seem to be suggesting above; you don't consider the Vunipolas as English yet they chose to represent England. It happens.

You keep bringing up Francis as an example when I have agreed with you numerous times.

What I will not agree with however, is that Gatland convinced players like George North and Sam Warburton to play for Wales, they needed NO convincing.

Anyway, I'm done with this.

I just can't agree that Welsh players are above something no one else is.

LordDowlais wrote: the Vunipolas.


They must be the most multi-cultural Englishmen I have ever seen, Tongan, Welsh accent, and English.

the only conclusion I can draw from this is that you have never heard Billy speak.

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote: the Vunipolas.


They must be the most multi-cultural Englishmen I have ever seen, Tongan, Welsh accent, and English.

the only conclusion I can draw from this is that you have never heard Billy speak.

Welsh accent??? I don't think so.

To be fair, Mako has a distinct tinge of a Welsh accent, along with about four other accents.

Billy though - nah, not even a hint.

What I find the most shocking is that people are willing to state that they "know" exactly what another person thinks.
You only speak for yourself you can assume what you want to belive someone else thinks, but you can never know.
And any public utterance from anyone can only be assumed to be the whole truth.

carpet baboon wrote:What I find the most shocking is that people are willing to state that they "know" exactly what another person thinks.
You only speak for yourself you can assume what you want to belive someone else thinks, but you can never know.
And any public utterance from anyone can only be assumed to be the whole truth.

unless it is a politician.



















or a banker















or an estate agent












etc

Well yes. Then you know its a lie.

It just amused me that people were stating an opinion as a fact on a hypothetical situation that none of us could ever possible "know" to be correct.

Unless some one has proved the many world's theory and invented a way to see them all.

Well, I find it strange, that a person who openly admits their nationality, has said that they are passionate about their country, speaks the language of that country from a young age, was born in that country, and has said publicly that they had dreams as a kid of representing that country, could have been persuaded to play for another country unless they were convinced otherwise by the national coach.

I am not saying I know what people are thinking, I am saying I know what people have said.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:North and Warburton yes.

See, he's off his head, he must be.

And yest you did mention Faletau, earlier on in this debate, I had to tell you he has been here since he was a kid.

Why off my head? You did.t have to tell me about Faletau, just pointed out hes the only residency qualified player playing for Wales.

U20s rugby is what tied him to Wales. Out of curiosity where did the Vunipola's play their age grade rugby? I'm not sure where they went after their New Panteg days where they played alongside Faletau.

I don't understand your point. Do you think that players can just move to any country they like, play for their U20s then qualify for that country outright? Faletau qualified through residency, ie wasn't born in Wales and doesn't have a parent or grandparent from the country. As I mentioned above I doubt any sane person thinks Faletau shouldn't qualify. The Vunipolas came through the England U20s and both qualified through residency. Again better for me than say someone like Waldrom who qualified through family or Hughes who will qualify the same way as the Vunipolas.

Wales U20 is their nominated second team, I thought everyone knew that these days? And it's a smart move given how other countries try and poach our players . Not so sure if there's different rules for U20 duty on the representation front?
I don't recall the Vunipola's playing for England U20 but if you do then you're probably right.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm sure players like Francis grew up dreaming of England but when push comes to shove and you have an offer on the table and nothing from another party it alters your perceptions. Like you seem to be suggesting above; you don't consider the Vunipolas as English yet they chose to represent England. It happens.

Francis couldn't get into his uni third team, so it's more likely that he grew up dreaming of being a doctor or something...

No 7&1/2 wrote:I just can't agree that Welsh players are above something no one else is.

They aren't. But if they're Welsh then surely they're going to want to represent Wales? Your examples were poor.

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:North and Warburton yes.

See, he's off his head, he must be.

And yest you did mention Faletau, earlier on in this debate, I had to tell you he has been here since he was a kid.

Why off my head? You did.t have to tell me about Faletau, just pointed out hes the only residency qualified player playing for Wales.

U20s rugby is what tied him to Wales. Out of curiosity where did the Vunipola's play their age grade rugby? I'm not sure where they went after their New Panteg days where they played alongside Faletau.

I don't understand your point. Do you think that players can just move to any country they like, play for their U20s then qualify for that country outright? Faletau qualified through residency, ie wasn't born in Wales and doesn't have a parent or grandparent from the country. As I mentioned above I doubt any sane person thinks Faletau shouldn't qualify. The Vunipolas came through the England U20s and both qualified through residency. Again better for me than say someone like Waldrom who qualified through family or Hughes who will qualify the same way as the Vunipolas.

Wales U20 is their nominated second team, I thought everyone knew that these days? And it's a smart move given how other countries try and poach our players . Not so sure if there's different rules for U20 duty on the representation front?
I don't recall the Vunipola's playing for England U20 but if you do then you're probably right.

Mako was in the same side as Ford and Farrell, and I think Billy would have been in the same squad as Clifford, Watson etc, but not sure how much he actually played given Clifford was at 8 and captain

Ha probably a good call on Francis!

I do get that the U20s for Wales counts, against some teams not all, but faletau qualifies for Wales through residency. I only brought that up to clarify he's the only one in the Welsh squad who does (not Ball as was insinuated earlier).

There are plenty of examples of players playing for countries they have no affiliation to other than 3 years living there. Just because someone is Welsh doesn't mean they can't end up playing for someone else. Thats the point on the Norths, Francis' etc, they all had the choice, Wales knocked on the door first to help that decision.

LordDowlais wrote:Well, I find it strange, that a person who openly admits their nationality, has said that they are passionate about their country, speaks the language of that country from a young age, was born in that country, and has said publicly that they had dreams as a kid of representing that country, could have been persuaded to play for another country unless they were convinced otherwise by the national coach.

I am not saying I know what people are thinking, I am saying I know what people have said.

Well they all speak English...

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thats the point on the Norths, Francis' etc, they all had the choice, Wales knocked on the door first to help that decision.

That's the point you are missing, it was never a choice for North, or Warburton, they always wanted to play for Wales, they have openly said this.

He was living in Wales and was therefore eligible for age grade rugby, at least that's how I think the rules go for some.

Yeah I know that, but you seem to think we only capped North because Gatland said so. I guess he did say so to an extent, as he's the selector, but it was because they were all playing well enough to get picked. Isn't that how it goes in every single test nation? You play well enough, you get picked.

LordDowlais wrote:Well, I find it strange, that a person who openly admits their nationality, has said that they are passionate about their country, speaks the language of that country from a young age, was born in that country, and has said publicly that they had dreams as a kid of representing that country, could have been persuaded to play for another country unless they were convinced otherwise by the national coach.

I am not saying I know what people are thinking, I am saying I know what people have said.

Who doesn't want to play international rugby in the six nations and world cup though even if it may not be with your own nation. Moriarty has said he played for England under 18's because Wales never came calling. Despite growing up supporting Wales he chose to play for England. This might have continued to the seniors if they had asked before Wales came calling

[quote="LordDowlais"]Well, I find it strange, that a person who openly admits their nationality, has said that they are passionate about their country, speaks the language of that country from a young age, was born in that country, and has said publicly that they had dreams as a kid of representing that country, could have been persuaded to play for another country unless they were convinced otherwise by the national coach.

I am not saying I know what people are thinking, I am saying I know what people have said.[/quot]

I know that but my point was more on the hypothetical argument that we "know" what someone would do in any good ven situation that never happened. I think he would have told England thanks but no thanks. But and its a big one, we just can't ever "know". And just because someone says something public dosent always reflect the first nner thinking of the person.

And this isn't me having a go at anyone its just something I see repeated time after time on forums . it makes me chuckle that's all

True Raven wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Well, I find it strange, that a person who openly admits their nationality, has said that they are passionate about their country, speaks the language of that country from a young age, was born in that country, and has said publicly that they had dreams as a kid of representing that country, could have been persuaded to play for another country unless they were convinced otherwise by the national coach.

I am not saying I know what people are thinking, I am saying I know what people have said.

Who doesn't want to play international rugby in the six nations and world cup though even if it may not be with your own nation.  Moriarty has said he played for England under 18's because Wales never came calling.  Despite growing up supporting Wales he chose to play for England.  This might have continued to the seniors if they had asked before Wales came calling

When have I mentioned him ?

I am talking about George North and Sam Warburton.

Ok I know it's wikipedia, and things can get altered, but this is taken off Sam's wiki page:-

Warburton was born in Wales to English parents and he considers himself Welsh and British.[3] ]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Warburton

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thats the point on the Norths, Francis' etc, they all had the choice, Wales knocked on the door first to help that decision.

That's the point you are missing, it was never a choice for North, or Warburton, they always wanted to play for Wales, they have openly said this.

yeah and like I said before Morgan said the same thing before England jumped in before he qualified for Wales. I'm sure if Lancaster hadn't and he ahd qualified for Wales he would be saying something else publically now.

Warbs says some funny things...

"Football was always my first love. My first dream was to play for Tottenham Hotspur."

Just one last thing.
Just because someone says something certainly dosent mean its true.
As an example we all say things at work that may not quite be the whole truth but is the correct thing to say at work.

Also we cannot assume that it is not true either.

A bit Schrödinger's cat really.

LordDowlais wrote:

True Raven wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Well, I find it strange, that a person who openly admits their nationality, has said that they are passionate about their country, speaks the language of that country from a young age, was born in that country, and has said publicly that they had dreams as a kid of representing that country, could have been persuaded to play for another country unless they were convinced otherwise by the national coach.

I am not saying I know what people are thinking, I am saying I know what people have said.

Who doesn't want to play international rugby in the six nations and world cup though even if it may not be with your own nation.  Moriarty has said he played for England under 18's because Wales never came calling.  Despite growing up supporting Wales he chose to play for England.  This might have continued to the seniors if they had asked before Wales came calling

When have I mentioned him ?

I am talking about George North and Sam Warburton.

What i quoted is that you mentioned people who are passionate about one country wont play for another. Sam supports Tottenham and I know his dad is English so unless you know him personally, hes not the clear cut Welshman you're trying to make him out to be and if he had grown up in Bristol would probably be wearing the red rose

carpet baboon wrote:Just one last thing.
Just because someone says something certainly dosent mean its true.
As an example we all say things at work that may not quite be the whole truth but is the correct thing to say at work.

Also we cannot assume that it is not true either.  

A bit Schrödinger's cat really.

Indeed. Players are hardly going to start talking about nations they could have represented once they're capped. It kinda annoys the fans.

No 7&1/2 wrote:yeah and like I said before Morgan said the same thing before England jumped in before he qualified for Wales. I'm sure if Lancaster hadn't and he ahd qualified for Wales he would be saying something else publically now.

Ben Morgan did not spend ALL is childhood, teenage and young adult life growing up in Wales though did he ?

Look, what part of this are you not understanding, I accept the option was there for players like North and Warburton, but Gatland did not get in there first to cap them, their aim, since childhood was to always play for Wales. 

When I accept that I do not know what they were thinking, the fact that they decided they would tie themselves to Wales by playing for the U20's make's me come to the conclusion that they themselves chose their path, because to them it was never really a choice. In George North's point, he chose to go straight into the national team, not because Gatland got in there first, he never, ever considered England, he was always going to be WELSH.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:yeah and like I said before Morgan said the same thing before England jumped in before he qualified for Wales. I'm sure if Lancaster hadn't and he ahd qualified for Wales he would be saying something else publically now.

Ben Morgan did not spend ALL is childhood, teenage and young adult life growing up in Wales though did he ?

Look, what part of this are you not understanding, I accept the option was there for players like North and Warburton, but Gatland did not get in there first to cap them, their aim, since childhood was to always play for Wales. 

When I accept that I do not know what they were thinking, the fact that they decided they would tie themselves to Wales by playing for the U20's make's me come to the conclusion that they themselves chose their path, because to them it was never really a choice. In George North's point, he chose to go straight into the national team, not because Gatland got in there first, he never, ever considered England, he was always going to be WELSH.

This can never be proved you know? It's your opinion. Not fact.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:yeah and like I said before Morgan said the same thing before England jumped in before he qualified for Wales. I'm sure if Lancaster hadn't and he ahd qualified for Wales he would be saying something else publically now.

Ben Morgan did not spend ALL is childhood, teenage and young adult life growing up in Wales though did he ?

Look, what part of this are you not understanding, I accept the option was there for players like North and Warburton, but Gatland did not get in there first to cap them, their aim, since childhood was to always play for Wales. 

When I accept that I do not know what they were thinking, the fact that they decided they would tie themselves to Wales by playing for the U20's make's me come to the conclusion that they themselves chose their path, because to them it was never really a choice. In George North's point, he chose to go straight into the national team, not because Gatland got in there first, he never, ever considered England, he was always going to be WELSH.

I used to think that until Scarlet Spiderman told me about an article where Gatland said he did cap North and Cuthbert early as they were dual qualified.

Also what people are trying to say is that unless you know Sam Warburton personally, how can you say that he wouldnt have played for England if they had come calling first.

I guess Heaslip isn't Irish then either. I reckon he grew up in Dublin wanting to play for Israel. O'Gara wanted to also play alongside greats such as Todd Clever.

mikey_dragon wrote:I guess Heaslip isn't Irish then either. I reckon he grew up in Dublin wanting to play for Israel. O'Gara wanted to also play alongside greats such as Todd Clever.

No one has said they aint welsh and your right given the opportunity they may have. We will never know.
Let's not take it personal folk

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:yeah and like I said before Morgan said the same thing before England jumped in before he qualified for Wales. I'm sure if Lancaster hadn't and he ahd qualified for Wales he would be saying something else publically now.

Ben Morgan did not spend ALL is childhood, teenage and young adult life growing up in Wales though did he ?

Look, what part of this are you not understanding, I accept the option was there for players like North and Warburton, but Gatland did not get in there first to cap them, their aim, since childhood was to always play for Wales. 

When I accept that I do not know what they were thinking, the fact that they decided they would tie themselves to Wales by playing for the U20's make's me come to the conclusion that they themselves chose their path, because to them it was never really a choice. In George North's point, he chose to go straight into the national team, not because Gatland got in there first, he never, ever considered England, he was always going to be WELSH.

And things can change quickly for a professional. Warburton spent 2003 supporting England and sat watching the final in his England shirt.

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Warburton spent 2003 supporting England and sat watching the final in his England shirt.

That would be true of most Welsh people though, wouldn't it?

No?

Oh.

carpet baboon wrote:This can never be proved you know? It's your opinion. Not fact.

no it is a fact, as the players have said so themselves.

yes for instance Eddie Jones wants a proper 7 at 7 and not a 6.5 which is why he's chosen Haskell. People always do as they say.

Cyril wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Warburton spent 2003 supporting England and sat watching the final in his England shirt.

That would be true of most Welsh people though, wouldn't it?

No?

Oh.

I actually wore an England shirt up the club for the Fiji game the WC opener - then again I coach in England and the lads appreciated it. Their appreciation waned about 10 days later

I'm done with this.

I will just leave off by saying the following:-

At least Wales do not have any 3yr residency players coming over in there 20's to get cheap caps. 

Not for want of trying.

LordDowlais wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:This can never be proved you know? It's your opinion. Not fact.

no it is a fact, as the players have said so themselves.

Ahh go on then, let's all agree it's a "fact" then.



Hmmmmmmmm

I'm the king of the world. Fact asi said it

RubyGuby wrote:

Cyril wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Warburton spent 2003 supporting England and sat watching the final in his England shirt.

That would be true of most Welsh people though, wouldn't it?

No?

Oh.

I actually wore an England shirt up the club for the Fiji game the WC opener - then again I coach in England and the lads appreciated it. Their appreciation waned about 10 days later

When I lived in Mumbles I remember seeing a guy wearing an Australian rugby shirt on a day when England was playing Australia. I can't say for certain but he didn't exactly look Australian...

Wales team to face Scotland: Liam Williams; George North, Jonathan Davies, Jamie Roberts, Tom James; Dan Biggar, Gareth Davies; Rob Evans, Scott Baldwin, Samson Lee; Luke Charteris, Alun Wyn Jones; Sam Warburton, Justin Tipuric, Taulupe Faletau.

Reps: Ken Owens, Gethin Jenkins, Tomas Francis, Bradley Davies, Dan Lydiate, Lloyd Williams, Rhys Priestland, Gareth Anscombe

True Raven wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:yeah and like I said before Morgan said the same thing before England jumped in before he qualified for Wales. I'm sure if Lancaster hadn't and he ahd qualified for Wales he would be saying something else publically now.

Ben Morgan did not spend ALL is childhood, teenage and young adult life growing up in Wales though did he ?

Look, what part of this are you not understanding, I accept the option was there for players like North and Warburton, but Gatland did not get in there first to cap them, their aim, since childhood was to always play for Wales. 

When I accept that I do not know what they were thinking, the fact that they decided they would tie themselves to Wales by playing for the U20's make's me come to the conclusion that they themselves chose their path, because to them it was never really a choice. In George North's point, he chose to go straight into the national team, not because Gatland got in there first, he never, ever considered England, he was always going to be WELSH.

I used to think that until Scarlet Spiderman told me about an article where Gatland said he did cap North and Cuthbert early as they were dual qualified.

Also what people are trying to say is that unless you know Sam Warburton personally, how can you say that he wouldnt have played for England if they had come calling first.

Might have been a factor, but again both were playing well and deserved some international recognition. Both got it and it paid off.

He's a Cardiff boy at heart, that's been made clear a number of times when he's stated he wants to finish his career there. He's also talked about the times he watched from the stands and dreamed of doing what the then flankers did. It's a silly question to be asking. England could ask any old sod "Would you like to come here, earn some good money and after 3 years play for England?" Every playing nation in the world can do that.