England u20 squad

Only a couple of changes since the initial squad. Johnny Williams has been left out because he's first choice at LI. Still, a 10, 12, 13 of Brophy-Clews, Mallinder and Marchant is pretty tasty. Assuming Brophy-Clews gets released of course. Overall this looks a useful group of players, and there is a decent spread around the academies:

Sam Aspland-Robinson (Harlequins)
Darren Atkins (Bath Rugby)
Joshua Bainbridge (Yorkshire Carnegie)
Lewis Boyce (Yorkshire Carnegie)*
Theo Brophy Clews (London Irish)*
Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons)
Andrew Kitchener (Worcester Warriors)
Max Malins (Saracens)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints)
Joseph Marchant (Harlequins)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs)*
Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby)
Joe Mullis (Gloucester Rugby)
George Nott (Sale Sharks)
Paolo Odogwu (Leicester Tigers)
George Perkins (Saracens)
Jake Pope (Sale Sharks)
Taylor Prell (Yorkshire Carnegie)
Mathew Protheroe (Gloucester Rugby)
Will Safe (Gloucester Rugby)
Jamie Shillcock (Worcester Warriors)
Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors)
Samuel Smith (Worcester Warriors)
Stanley South (Harlequins)
William Stuart (Wasps)
Huw Taylor (Worcester Warriors)
Oliver Thorley (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Walker (Saracens)
Jack Walker (Yorkshire Carnegie)
Calum Waters (Harlequins)
Tom West (Wasps)
Archie White (Harlequins)

U20 Six Nations:

v Scotland, Friday 5 February (8:00pm), Broadwood Stadium, Glasgow
v Italy, Friday 12 February (7:10pm), Stadio Pacifici, San Dona' Di Piave
v Ireland, Friday 26 February (6:15pm), Kingston Park, Newcastle Tickets are available here.
v Wales, Friday 11 March (7:45pm), Ashton Gate, Bristol Tickets are available here.
v France, Friday 18 March (6:45pm, local time), Stade du Hameau, Pau

Fixtures mirror the seniors but played on the Friday nights & our home games against Ireland & Wales are live on sky sports.

I've said it before and I will say it again, if Yorkshire could keep hold of their players, they could be a hell of a team. They are consistently one of the biggest suppliers of age grade players. The same goes for Worcester. It's really surprising (and slightly worrying) how few players Leicester and Northampton and contributing to this.

Cumbrian wrote:I've said it before and I will say it again, if Yorkshire could keep hold of their players, they could be a hell of a team. They are consistently one of the biggest suppliers of age grade players.  The same goes for Worcester. It's really surprising (and slightly worrying) how few players Leicester and Northampton and contributing to this.

I think Worcester being a big contributor is a new thing. Leicester not being isn't, but hopefully that will change.

Do you guys not think you should scrap the Saxons and have the under 20s as your designated second team? I saw a few days ago that protheroe was in your team he's only going to end up another Moriarty example. Whereas I don't understand the point of the Saxons when you only play the Irish wolfhounds once a year

I agree Protheroe is almost certainly going to return to the Welsh system, and I'm not really sure why we are developing players who are clearly Welsh (ad who might prefer to play for England as they don't get tied to a nation at a young age). Nonetheless the Saxons are there to allow the senior coaches to have a good look at a wider group of players, where-as the u20s are a development side. I think ideally there should be an A-team Six Nations played out the same weekend as the main event.

You've said it yourself davem that its a developing tool and the best system in Europe for under aged players (maybe the world), if there are young guys of other nationalities playing in England then they're likely to take advantage of it. Johnny Williams was first in the welsh under 16s team but left to join the England under 18s as its a better system. Hopefully we've ploughed money into our system to improve the coaching etc. However in some cases it can work in your advantage as you gained the vunipolas from it as they could have played for wales alongside their cousin

TBC has been withdraw due to Irish's injury at 10.

DaveM wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I've said it before and I will say it again, if Yorkshire could keep hold of their players, they could be a hell of a team. They are consistently one of the biggest suppliers of age grade players.  The same goes for Worcester. It's really surprising (and slightly worrying) how few players Leicester and Northampton and contributing to this.

I think Worcester being a big contributor is a new thing. Leicester not being isn't, but hopefully that will change.

Maybe, but to me it is seems to be part of a larger malaise at Leicester, their academy doesn't seem to be working as well as it has done in the past (which is worrying from an England's perspective). Even looking at their wiki page, the number of foreign players in their squad seems worryingly high. They’ve got as many Italian front five players in their first team squad as they have English ones...

Cumbrian wrote:

DaveM wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I've said it before and I will say it again, if Yorkshire could keep hold of their players, they could be a hell of a team. They are consistently one of the biggest suppliers of age grade players.  The same goes for Worcester. It's really surprising (and slightly worrying) how few players Leicester and Northampton and contributing to this.

I think Worcester being a big contributor is a new thing. Leicester not being isn't, but hopefully that will change.

Maybe, but to me it is seems to be part of a larger malaise at Leicester, their academy doesn't seem to be working as well as it has done in the past (which is worrying from an England's perspective).  Even looking at their wiki page, the number of foreign players in their squad seems worryingly high. They’ve got as many Italian front five players in their first team squad as they have English ones...

I'd imagine the issues are probably linked. If the academy hasn't been working you tend to go and look for value in the transfer market. Sarries a few years back brought in lots of South Africans, and gradually the academy products have come through. I do agree there has been a malaise, and that that isn't good for the English game, but I think the nadir was last season and that things should improve now, including seeing a few more academy players at representative level.

True Raven wrote:You've said it yourself davem that its a developing tool and the best system in Europe for under aged players (maybe the world), if there are young guys of other nationalities playing in England then they're likely to take advantage of it.  Johnny Williams was first in the welsh under 16s team but left to join the England under 18s as its a better system.  Hopefully we've ploughed money into our system to improve the coaching etc.  However in some cases it can work in your advantage as you gained the vunipolas from it as they could have played for wales alongside their cousin

I don't blame the players for wanting to take advantage of the English system - it has obviously worked for Moriarty for instance. And I recognise that lots of people in the British Isles can legitimately play for more than one country, and so there will always be movement. What I don't get is why England pick players who seem extremely likely to regard themselves as not English. On the other hand Heathcote is as English as you can get, went through the age group system and still went to play for Scotland because he wanted to play international rugby, so you never know I guess.

DaveM wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

DaveM wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I've said it before and I will say it again, if Yorkshire could keep hold of their players, they could be a hell of a team. They are consistently one of the biggest suppliers of age grade players.  The same goes for Worcester. It's really surprising (and slightly worrying) how few players Leicester and Northampton and contributing to this.

I think Worcester being a big contributor is a new thing. Leicester not being isn't, but hopefully that will change.

Maybe, but to me it is seems to be part of a larger malaise at Leicester, their academy doesn't seem to be working as well as it has done in the past (which is worrying from an England's perspective).  Even looking at their wiki page, the number of foreign players in their squad seems worryingly high. They’ve got as many Italian front five players in their first team squad as they have English ones...

I'd imagine the issues are probably linked. If the academy hasn't been working you tend to go and look for value in the transfer market. Sarries a few years back brought in lots of South Africans, and gradually the academy products have come through. I do agree there has been a malaise, and that that isn't good for the English game, but I think the nadir was last season and that things should improve now, including seeing a few more academy players at representative level.

I suppose that is my worry in a nutshell, that last season wasn't simply a blip or a low point, that it will actually become the norm. I mean they didn't have a single player in the U18s squad that toured South Africa in the summer just gone. I'll be interested to see the make up of the U18s squad for this year.

there has been a lot of changes recently in the tigers academy setup so hopefully we'll start to see more come through

Great to see Calum Chick in. An 8 we have real hope for up here...but then again the last young 8 we had great hopes of didn't exactly turn out well did it....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Great to see Calum Chick in. An 8 we have real hope for up here...but then again the last young 8 we had great hopes of didn't exactly turn out well did it....

Well regarded apparently.

Where is Gray these days?

DaveM wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Great to see Calum Chick in. An 8 we have real hope for up here...but then again the last young 8 we had great hopes of didn't exactly turn out well did it....

Well regarded apparently.

Where is Gray these days?

Alex Gray? He is full time on the sevens circuit for England now Dave

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

DaveM wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Great to see Calum Chick in. An 8 we have real hope for up here...but then again the last young 8 we had great hopes of didn't exactly turn out well did it....

Well regarded apparently.

Where is Gray these days?

Alex Gray? He is full time on the sevens circuit for England now Dave

Thanks. That probably suits his attributes well.

England have more than 12 teams with junior academies - I wouldn't be overly worried about developing the odd player for another playing nation, but if Protheroe is as good as they say then why the hell didn't the Wales U18s and U20s offer him game time?! Big blunder. Anyway in Wales we have about 4/5 academies so we can't really afford to be developing players for other nations, such as the Ruddock brothers, Cooper-Walley and Underhill at the moment with Ospreys.

mikey_dragon wrote:England have more than 12 teams with junior academies - I wouldn't be overly worried about developing the odd player for another playing nation, but if Protheroe is as good as they say then why the hell didn't the Wales U18s and U20s offer him game time?! Big blunder. Anyway in Wales we have about 4/5 academies so we can't really afford to be developing players for other nations, such as the Ruddock brothers, Cooper-Walley and Underhill at the moment with Ospreys.

Yes, a fair point. I do like to see England u20 players who are more likely than not to want to play for the seniors though.

Well personally I don't see how anyone would want to represent another country, whether its U18, U20 or seniors. If some of these guys move around a lot as youngsters with their parents then it's more understandable. What I don't get is the Heathcoate's and Shingler's of this world. Plus if Moriarty always wanted to play for Wales, why did he also represent England at age grade...

Because his mentor was the England under 18s coach and also wales never came calling

DaveM wrote:

True Raven wrote:You've said it yourself davem that its a developing tool and the best system in Europe for under aged players (maybe the world), if there are young guys of other nationalities playing in England then they're likely to take advantage of it.  Johnny Williams was first in the welsh under 16s team but left to join the England under 18s as its a better system.  Hopefully we've ploughed money into our system to improve the coaching etc.  However in some cases it can work in your advantage as you gained the vunipolas from it as they could have played for wales alongside their cousin

I don't blame the players for wanting to take advantage of the English system - it has obviously worked for Moriarty for instance. And I recognise that lots of people in the British Isles can legitimately play for more than one country, and so there will always be movement. What I don't get is why England pick players who seem extremely likely to regard themselves as not English. On the other hand Heathcote is as English as you can get, went through the age group system and still went to play for Scotland because he wanted to play international rugby, so you never know I guess.

Williams is a bit of a different case to Moriarty and Protheroe tbf. He was born in Reading and as far as I'm aware never lived in Wales. Played for Wales U16 (qualified through his Welsh father), but switched when England showed an interest at U17s. Dual qualified, but I'd guess he doesn't have a problem seeing himself as English.

I never pictured Williams as an option either, and I was surprised people were touting him for us. He's qualified for Scotland and Wales but he seems very English; therefore he'll probably stick with England rugby.

Squad for the Scotland match has been named:

15. Mathew Protheroe (Gloucester Rugby)
14. Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby)
13. Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
12. Charlie Thacker (Leicester Tigers)
11. George Perkins (Saracens)
10. Joe Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
9. Max Green (Yorkshire Carnegie)

1. Tom West (Wasps)
2. Jack Walker (Yorkshire Carnegie)
3. William Stuart (Wasps)
4. Huw Taylor (Worcester Warriors)
5. Stan South (Harlequins)
6. Archie White (Harlequins)
7. Josh Bainbridge (Yorkshire Carnegie)
8. Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons)

Replacements:

16. Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors)
17. Jake Pope (Sale Sharks)
18. Billy Keast (Exeter Chiefs)
19. Andrew Kitchener (Worcester Warriors)
20. Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby)
21. Jamie Shillcock (Worcester Warriors)
22. Sam Aspland-Robinson (Harlequins)
23. Taylor Prell (Yorkshire Carnegie)

Fallen a little out of touch with the age grades recently, don't know too many of these guys except Callum Chick.

SirBurger wrote:TBC has been withdraw due to Irish's injury at 10.

That was... expected. Good for him, though, and hopefully playing with the big boys will stand him in good stead for the JRWC.

There are some good players missing. I don't know quite a few of this lot, but if they are good then we have some serious strength in depth.

Have high hops for Thacker

Who are the standout players, again like many I am not familiar?

Marchant and Perkins in the backs, Chick is a great talent but barely out of U18s, not sure on any of the other forwards

Jack Walker is a bloody good hooker. Will probably follow Paul Hill to Saints and then the full England team.

Walker is off to bath pretty much next season isn't he?

Welly wrote: Walker is off to bath pretty much next season isn't he?

Ah is he? With Webber off and Batty meh, he could prosper there - but I have a sneaky feeling that Bath will also be signing a big name hooker.

Really looking forward to seeing how Marchant goes - he missed last year's JRWC with injury and there was a fair amount of comment that he could have made the difference in the final. In the flesh he's a similar size and build to Jonathan Joseph - let's hope he can play that way.

Brophy-Clews is an interesting one - consistently playing above his age grade and now getting senior rugby. He's filled out a lot over the last year and doesn't look out of place playing with the big boys. But we'll have to watch him in the AP...

Not good enough by England at all, they've looked clueless throughout with the exception of an excellent scrum. One out runners all match, adventure at times but in the main all on the back foot and within their own 22. Not good enough at this level and more affirmation that John Callard is miles out of his depth coaching these guys.

The only positive is some excellent non-partisan commentary from the Scots guys!

with my Tigers hat on been happy with Thacker.

Agree commentary has been on point.

Bill Johnson was the commentator - from the Bill McLaren school of commentary. Very fair and impartial.

.Chris Paterson the summariser - he is also very good

RDW_Scotland wrote:Bill Johnson was the commentator - from the Bill McLaren school of commentary. Very fair and impartial.

.Chris Paterson the summariser - he is also very good

Bill Johnson is Bill mclarens nephew

Two rusty teams went at it in Donnybrook with Wales the better team winning, but making Ireland look better than they are in the process.

Who won your fixture and who are the danger men in each team?

Yeah, really poor from England, and I also worry about the coaching. I thought Scotland were good though.

Cumbrian wrote:I've said it before and I will say it again, if Yorkshire could keep hold of their players, they could be a hell of a team. They are consistently one of the biggest suppliers of age grade players.  The same goes for Worcester. It's really surprising (and slightly worrying) how few players Leicester and Northampton and contributing to this.

Agree on all points.  Both Saints and Tigers have good academies.  Strange.  
Also the potential for Yorkshire and Worcester.  Hopefully their talent at age group translates to success in the future.

I guess the fact that Yorkshire and Worcester (mainly Yorkshire) have to use there players more often and they get more experience at senior level compared to say Tigers and Saints.

Hopefully England will develop as a group now this 6N's, but with Callard I wouldn't bet on it.

Is this years under 20s team mainly made up of graduates from last years under 18s?

True Raven wrote:Is this years under 20s team mainly made up of graduates from last years under 18s?

I think so. What usually happens is that England's team remains largely the same through U16-20 (not sure if it's true for U17 and U19, if England still even have those age grade teams?). Wales should be concentrating heavily on U16 level as we seem to be good but then fall behind the rest at U18 level. Get these guys ready when their teen-agers and the rest should fall into place I reckon.

Not sure if it was just the tv, but Scotland's players seemed to look bigger than their English counterparts??? Never ever known that to be the case before....

England have quite a young side I think. Loads more changes for the Italy game. Apparently 24 players will have debuted over the course of this game and the Scotland game.

England squad versus England

England U20 v Italy U20

15. Max Malins (Saracens)
14. George Perkins (Saracens)
13. Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
12. Charlie Thacker (Leicester Tigers)
11. Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby)
10. Mathew Protheroe (Gloucester Rugby)
9. Max Green (Yorkshire Carnegie)

1. Tom West (Wasps)
2. Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors)
3. Will Stuart (Wasps)
4. Huw Taylor (Worcester Warriors)
5. George Nott (Sale Sharks)
6. Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby)
7. Sam Smith (Worcester Warriors)
8. Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons) ©

16. Curtis Langdon (London Irish)
17. Ralph Adams-Hale (Saracens)
18. Billy Keast (Exeter Chiefs)
19. Stan South (Harlequins)
20. Jack Willis (Wasps)
21. Jamie Shillcock (Worcester Warriors)
22. Joe Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
23. Paolo Odogwu (Leicester Tigers)

Are the under 20s games on tv?

This one is on the rfu website I think.

Out of curiosity do any of you guys know the eligibility criteria for England under 20s? Was reading a Twitter exchange between English and Welsh rugby journalists and they were unaware that mat protheroe has any links to England apart from that he plays rugby in the country. He's eligible for senior selection in 2018 as it will be three years after he signed his first pro contract with Gloucester. Do you guys know if this is true that there is no eligibility criteria for the England under 20s?

Apparantly you don't need to be English to play for the under 20's. Saw an extract of an article this morning

The RFU say Protheroe qualifies for England Under-20s because he lives in the country, has been part of the development programme and this team is not one of their two nominated top tier sides.

Strange the IRB allows this but I guess its a development tool and nothing else.

Yeah I was going to say I think it may be because there's no way of tying anyone to England just because they've played for u20s, as we use the Saxons as our second team. Wonder if its the same for Ireland with the Wolfhounds/u20s