England u20 squad

First topic message reminder :

Only a couple of changes since the initial squad. Johnny Williams has been left out because he's first choice at LI. Still, a 10, 12, 13 of Brophy-Clews, Mallinder and Marchant is pretty tasty. Assuming Brophy-Clews gets released of course. Overall this looks a useful group of players, and there is a decent spread around the academies:

Sam Aspland-Robinson (Harlequins)
Darren Atkins (Bath Rugby)
Joshua Bainbridge (Yorkshire Carnegie)
Lewis Boyce (Yorkshire Carnegie)*
Theo Brophy Clews (London Irish)*
Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons)
Andrew Kitchener (Worcester Warriors)
Max Malins (Saracens)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints)
Joseph Marchant (Harlequins)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs)*
Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby)
Joe Mullis (Gloucester Rugby)
George Nott (Sale Sharks)
Paolo Odogwu (Leicester Tigers)
George Perkins (Saracens)
Jake Pope (Sale Sharks)
Taylor Prell (Yorkshire Carnegie)
Mathew Protheroe (Gloucester Rugby)
Will Safe (Gloucester Rugby)
Jamie Shillcock (Worcester Warriors)
Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors)
Samuel Smith (Worcester Warriors)
Stanley South (Harlequins)
William Stuart (Wasps)
Huw Taylor (Worcester Warriors)
Oliver Thorley (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Walker (Saracens)
Jack Walker (Yorkshire Carnegie)
Calum Waters (Harlequins)
Tom West (Wasps)
Archie White (Harlequins)

Possibly, its just an extension of age grade rugby which makes sense. At age grade in Wales you have a match between East and West Wales and players eligible just have to be schooled in the area and not tied to that country.

Well a convincing win, but it's only Italy and it's pretty meaningless in the context of the Scotland humiliation. Hopefully they can kick on from here though.

Engand vs Italy

England are a team I want to beat, our record against them at this level is in serious need of improvement. How is your set piece, driving lineout and attack?

Marchant doing the kicking?
That's the first I've ever heard of him as a recognised goal kicker. I wonder if it was for experience, injury to the usual kicker, or the fly half just isn't a good goal kicker.

Team vs Ireland:

15.Max Malins (Saracens)
14.George Perkins (Saracens)
13.Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
12.Charlie Thacker (Leicester Tigers)
11.Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby)
10.Mathew Protheroe (Gloucester Rugby)
9.Max Green (Yorkshire Carnegie)
1.Tom West (Wasps)
2.Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors)
3.Will Stuart (Wasps)
4.Huw Taylor (Worcester Warriors)
5.George Nott (Sale Sharks)
6.Archie White (Harlequins)
7.Sam Smith (Worcester Warriors)
8.Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons, captain)

16.Curtis Langdon (London Irish)
17.Jake Pope (Sale Sharks)
18.Billy Keast (Exeter Chiefs)
19.Stan South (Harlequins)
20.Jack Willis (Wasps)
21.Jamie Shillcock (Worcester Warriors)
22.Joe Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
23.Paolo Odogwu (Leicester Tigers)

What a pathetic performance. It would be interesting to see Jon Callard's career coaching record for England representative sides.

Brilliant performance by Ireland through a stirring fight back in the second half.

26-20 was a first class result against England and somewhat appeases for the more disappointing results v Wales and France.

The women's 6n match tomorrow should be an interesting battle too with both sides down players due to 7s commitments.

Here we go again:

1 Lewis Boyce (Yorkshire Carnegie)
2 Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors)
3 Will Stuart (Wasps)
4 Huw Taylor (Worcester Warriors)
5 Andrew Kitchener (Worcester Warriors)
6 George Nott (Sale Sharks)
7 Sam Smith (Worcester Warriors)
8 Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons) ©
9 Max Green (Yorkshire Carnegie)
10 Mathew Protheroe (Gloucester Rugby)
11 Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby)
12 George Worth (Leicester Tigers)
13 Charlie Thacker (Leicester Tigers)
14 George Perkins (Saracens)
15 Max Malins (Saracens)
Replacements
16 Curtis Langdon (London Irish)
17 Tom West (Wasps)
18 Billy Keast (Exeter Chiefs)
19 Alex Moon (Northampton Saints)
20 Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby)
21 Calum Waters (Harlequins)
22 Joe Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
23 Paolo Odogwu (Leicester Tigers)

I think this may already be the least successful England u20 side ever? In any case, they have been very disappointing, even allowing for the extremely high number of debutants. Let's hope they do a little better this week.

There have been some odd performances, really disjointed and scrappy. Some of the basic skills haven't been as good as in previous years. I do think that we have been spoilt a little over the last few years. We may go back to a point where only a couple of U20s a season go on to be internationals rather than 4, 5 or 6. We'll see though, could be just a blip.

A win V this Wales should hopefully give Haag some motivated players going into the World Cup.

Worrying thing for me was the senior players also not performing in the early stages

Although the likes of Brophy Clews and Mallinder Jnr will give a huge boost for the summer.

A slightly more positive spin is that a lot of the better U20s are busy playing senior rugby. Off the top of my head the likes of Joe Marchant (Quins), Theo Brophy-Clews (London Irish) and Harry Mallinder (Saints) are all still U20s but needed by their clubs.

Merchant has been poor this U20 6N's, can't see England missing him TBH.

Mallinder and TBC are big losses.

Hey lads, is this on TV at all? I can't see where it's listed. If Wales don't win this then their season can be considered a massive fail, where-as if England win then they've pretty much got their season back on track and have another win to their name going into the JWC where they will probably give a better account of themselves. We've got a strong team out for this one but we've put Jones back at fly-half, I think he's a pretty inconsistent 10 so that should be an advantage for England.

On Sky Sports 2

mikey dragon it's already a poor campaign for England U20s.

We know what a win over England means to Wales in any sport.

Dan Biggar was Welsh sport personality of the year. Winning the award effectively for winning one game.

The Welsh U20s would be Welsh heroes if they defeat England. A win for England would be just reverting back to how it has generally been at U20s level.

beshocked if our U20s beat you then yes, they will be heroes but not because they've beaten the English. One, it will be a first away win against England U20. Two, it puts us in good measure for winning the championship/grand slam, which will be a first for our U20s.

We've had better teams than this in the past, but some of them were very badly coached. This is a strong team with a good coach.

RE Biggar's award - I think he was being recognised for his consistent flawless performances and how he rose from understudy (rightly or wrongly) to be our best fly-half.

mikey dragon

England have generally been the strongest side in the U20s in the 6 nations in the last few years - 2nd in the world behind NZ. It will be a low point for the England U20s if they lose to Wales, losing to Scotland was bad too.

Biggar won the award because you beat England in the RWC. You can believe it was for other performances if you want but Ospreys did not win the ERCC or the Pro12, Wales came 3rd in the 6 nations and quarter finals of the RWC - having lost to Australia and SA. It was not a good season really outside beating England in the RWC, you even lost to England in the 6 nations.

Yes I guess it would be a low point, as this year's finish in the table would be the lowest ever for England. But that said I'd bring your head just slightly out of your rear for a moment and realise that Wales aren't THAT bad. They've beaten England, NZ and SA at this level. Our highest finish is 2nd in the JWC and 6N to date - so not that bad I guess although I think there's plenty of room for improvement.

No I think my reasoning is a bit more logical, though his MOTM award against England certainly did help. I would guess Roberts is leading candidate for this year's sports personality, and we haven't even played England yet...

Compared to England at this level only NZ have been better. In the U20s 6 nations England have been by far the best performing team since the competition started. Losing to Wales would bring England U20s to their lowest ever point. Wales are bad compared to the lofty height England have been at in the U20s - two times JRWC winners, 5 6 nations titles (2 being GSs).


Your reasoning is not logical at all. Biggar achieved nothing except for his man of the match award vs England. Won no silverware with Wales or Ospreys in 2015. Biggar was not flawless.

You mean even though you've already lost to Wales? A badly coached Wales, might I add. I can acknowledge that England have been by far the best U20 6N team, and for most JWC's one of the top 4 teams, and beating them is a great achievement. That would be the main reason to beat them, not because they're English...

No it's your reason that's highly illogical. Biggar's performances have been flawless for a very long time. And I'm not sure who he was up against for sports personality?

beshocked wrote:Compared to England at this level only NZ have been better. In the U20s 6 nations England have been by far the best performing team since the competition started. Losing to Wales would bring England U20s to their lowest ever point. Wales are bad compared to the lofty height England have been at in the U20s - two times JRWC winners, 5 6 nations titles (2 being GSs).


Your reasoning is not logical at all. Biggar achieved nothing except for his man of the match award vs England. Won no silverware with Wales or Ospreys in 2015. Biggar was not flawless.

Wales under 20's have made the semi finals of the JRWC twice in the last four years so they're not historically as bad as you're making out. Anyway it's all a moot point becuase the only way to determine the success of underage levels is to see how many make it as a senior international. Just because some lads are bigger at a teenage level, it doesn't automatically make them great rugby players as underage rugby is all about development

Also obviously much greater turnover of players at this level. This bunch don't look fantastic as a team and there doesn't seem to be the eye catching individuals as there has been in previous sides.

What under 20's players are there to look out for tonight?

The Welsh 10, playing for England.

If he's that good we'll need him back...

You'll be getting him apparently.

Heard that Gatland has spoken to him, also read that he wants Jonny Williams too. Maybe if LI go down he might be on the move to Wales.....wishful thinking probably

mikey dragon England have a 90% record against Wales at this level - 9/10. A loss would be a big blow to this record. Up against Geraint Thomas, probably Bale I guess.

Biggar's performances haven't been flawless. He's done well to be named the Welsh sports personality but that's down to his man of the match performance vs England.


True Raven indeed you are correct Wales have done well in the last 4 years but in that same period England had won the JRWC twice and got to a final. There's a big difference. Wales have done badly vs England.

Sadly I believe that Wales will win in the U20s this year.

To be fair to Wales it is impressive they are 1 of only 3 teams to beat the U20s NZ team.

Cracking start by the welsh, 14-3 up after 17 mins. Dillon Lewis has got the England scrum going backwards and won three penalties and Reuben Morgan -Williams is following in the footsteps of Webb and Davies in being a fleet footed livewire

Make that 21-3

28-3 ball ripped ripped out of tackle and keelan Giles boots ball forward, english defender dives onto the ball but misses it leaving a simple touch down for Giles to score wales fourth try

Well seeing as this is the match thread, what was the sinbin for?

mikey_dragon wrote:Well seeing as this is the match thread, what was the sinbin for?

Dangerous tackle it said on the radio

It was a fine tackle, the attacker just landed in his neck

Well as I haven't long got home, I've missed this entire match. Scrum V should be showing the highlights on sunday though right?

Jesus, what a win! That No.8 for Wales. No flies on Lyn for getting him signed up until 2019. Great game, great win.

True Raven wrote:It was a fine tackle, the attacker just landed in his neck

LOL and how did he land on his neck.

Welly wrote:

True Raven wrote:It was a fine tackle, the attacker just landed in his neck

LOL and how did he land on his neck.

I felt is was a yellow when I saw it in real time, dreadful mismatch in terms of well. . . Everything. Yellow was about right.

It was a collision between a defender who weighs 15-16 stone and an attacker who looks about 8 stone, there was no malice whatsoever. However, I didn't say yellow wasn't the right decision as he landed on his neck but it was not a dangerous tackle by any means

Wales for grand slam now surely! About time too! And perhaps a top 4 finish at the JWC later on down the line?Commiserations England U20, but considering our dreadful record against you at this level, it was needed. Jason Strange will be the next Dragons coach I tell ye.

I'd say that is the worst England u20 side I've seen. I'd expect us to lose to France as well. At least we've got a decent coach to come in in the summer.  

I don't want to clog up this thread with a lengthy debate on the subject, but I think it was amazing that the Welsh 8 wasn't red carded for spearing the FH into the ground (and what was the video ref talking about when he said he wasn't lifted beyond the horizontal!? It's paused in front of me and the FH's legs are literally straight up in the air. He couldn't have lifted him further beyond the horizontal even if he'd tried! And he didn't land on his neck (a physical impossibility), he clearly landed on his head). I mean if that isn't dangerous play I don't know what is, as there was a real risk of serious neck damage. It wouldn't have changed the result though, as Wales were by far the better side.

Not much to do but wait for the end of the Callard era, and for better times.

I wasn't impressed by Protheroe again btw. He's clearly got ability, but his game management is poor. He looks better suited to FB to me.

beshocked wrote:mikey dragon

England have generally been the strongest side in the U20s in the 6 nations in the last few years - 2nd in the world behind NZ.  It will be a low point for the England U20s if they lose to Wales, losing to Scotland was bad too.

Biggar won the award because you beat England in the RWC.  You can believe it was for other performances if you want but Ospreys did not win the ERCC or the Pro12, Wales came 3rd in the 6 nations and quarter finals of the RWC - having lost to Australia and SA. It was not a good season really outside beating England in the RWC, you even lost to England in the 6 nations.

Your arrogance is sickening. Engerland must have been rooted in a low point in most sports for decades and Rugby Union for longer seeing as you are one win ahead in over 150 odd tests

Wales are just catching up in other age groups that's all.

As for downing Wales for losing games in the World Cup, you lot were so pathetic you never got out of the pool. Try looking at your crock of crap team and what you have won recently NOTHING. In 2003 as World chumps you went to NZ on tour and never scored a try against them or the game against Australia. 13 years we still await the chariots wheels to stay on. As I see it they are buckled already and have less than 24 hours to stay on.

As for beating engerland, it is run of the mill and don't kid yourself, many of us Welsh prefer to see the Irish or French game as more of a challenge rather that playing 15 Nigel's.

Odd once Wales had spanked you in the U20's game it was silence from you

DaveM wrote:I'd say that is the worst England u20 side I've seen. I'd expect us to lose to France as well. At least we've got a decent coach to come in in the summer.  

I don't want to clog up this thread with a lengthy debate on the subject, but I think it was amazing that the Welsh 8 wasn't red carded for spearing the FH into the ground (and what was the video ref talking about when he said he wasn't lifted beyond the horizontal!? It's paused in front of me and the FH's legs are literally straight up in the air. He couldn't have lifted him further beyond the horizontal even if he'd tried! And he didn't land on his neck (a physical impossibility), he clearly landed on his head). I mean if that isn't dangerous play I don't know what is, as there was a real risk of serious neck damage. It wouldn't have changed the result though, as Wales were by far the better side.

Not much to do but wait for the end of the Callard era, and for better times.

I wasn't impressed by Protheroe again btw. He's clearly got ability, but his game management is poor. He looks better suited to FB to me.

All good observations Dave & agree on all points. Welsh 8 was a lucky boy.....

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

DaveM wrote:I'd say that is the worst England u20 side I've seen. I'd expect us to lose to France as well. At least we've got a decent coach to come in in the summer.  

I don't want to clog up this thread with a lengthy debate on the subject, but I think it was amazing that the Welsh 8 wasn't red carded for spearing the FH into the ground (and what was the video ref talking about when he said he wasn't lifted beyond the horizontal!? It's paused in front of me and the FH's legs are literally straight up in the air. He couldn't have lifted him further beyond the horizontal even if he'd tried! And he didn't land on his neck (a physical impossibility), he clearly landed on his head). I mean if that isn't dangerous play I don't know what is, as there was a real risk of serious neck damage. It wouldn't have changed the result though, as Wales were by far the better side.

Not much to do but wait for the end of the Callard era, and for better times.

I wasn't impressed by Protheroe again btw. He's clearly got ability, but his game management is poor. He looks better suited to FB to me.

All good observations Dave & agree on all points. Welsh 8 was a lucky boy.....

Even if the referee had awarded a red card then Wales would still have had a convincing win, such was their complete dominance.

What has happened to the English intake this year ?
Even Scotland have thumped this team. Callard has been pretty successful as a coach so not sure that is the reason. Also a number of players have been called up by AP clubs but again not enough of a reason.

Quite a few of this squad will be around next season so would expect an improvement on these one sided games. Perhaps given the U20s are the nominated second team for a number of Unions there is some catch up going on.
Still a strange outlier on general english U20s performance levels.

Nothing against Callard but he always seems to have an "Albatross" effect on any team he is coaching.  The best English u-20 players should not be that bad.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

DaveM wrote:I'd say that is the worst England u20 side I've seen. I'd expect us to lose to France as well. At least we've got a decent coach to come in in the summer.  

I don't want to clog up this thread with a lengthy debate on the subject, but I think it was amazing that the Welsh 8 wasn't red carded for spearing the FH into the ground (and what was the video ref talking about when he said he wasn't lifted beyond the horizontal!? It's paused in front of me and the FH's legs are literally straight up in the air. He couldn't have lifted him further beyond the horizontal even if he'd tried! And he didn't land on his neck (a physical impossibility), he clearly landed on his head). I mean if that isn't dangerous play I don't know what is, as there was a real risk of serious neck damage. It wouldn't have changed the result though, as Wales were by far the better side.

Not much to do but wait for the end of the Callard era, and for better times.

I wasn't impressed by Protheroe again btw. He's clearly got ability, but his game management is poor. He looks better suited to FB to me.

All good observations Dave & agree on all points. Welsh 8 was a lucky boy.....

Cheers. I hope our form will pick up a bit for the home JWC.

Going by reports on here then, Protheroe isn't that good. Perhaps a comparison can be drawn between him and Matthew Morgan?

mikey_dragon wrote:Going by reports on here then, Protheroe isn't that good. Perhaps a comparison can be drawn between him and Matthew Morgan?

Yes, I can see the comparison. Like Morgan he definitely has ability, but that isn't enough to be a top class 10.

So here we go again:

England U20 team to play France:

15. Max Malins (Saracens)
14. George Perkins (Saracens)
13. Dom Morris (Saracens)
12. George Worth (Leicester Tigers)
11. Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby)
10. Mathew Protheroe (Gloucester Rugby)
9. Max Green (Yorkshire Carnegie)

1. Lewis Boyce (Yorkshire Carnegie)
2. Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors)
3. Will Stuart (Wasps)
4. Huw Taylor (Worcester Warriors)
5. Andrew Kitchener (Worcester Warriors)
6. George Nott (Sale Sharks)
7. Jack Willis (Wasps)
8. Callum Chick, captain (Newcastle Falcons)

Replacements:

16. Curtis Langdon (London Irish)
17. Tom West (Wasps)
18. Jake Pope (Sale Sharks)
19. Alex Moon (Northampton Saints)
20. Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby)
21. Cameron Cowell (England Sevens)
22. Charlie Thacker (Leicester Tigers)
23. Sam Aspland-Robinson (Harlequins)

Based on what we've seen so far, avoiding being thrashed would be a good result.