No prospect of eastern Europe joining in 6 Nations

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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Sat 30 Jan 2016, 12:24 am

First topic message reminder :

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/six-nations-2016-no-prospect-of-eastern-europe-joining-in-best-tournament-a6840196.html#commentsDiv

Way to crush all hope for other nations in Europe. Whats the point in even developing rugby in other European countries?

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Post by profitius on Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:45 am

Apparnetly the 6 nations are talking about bringing Georgia and Romania into the U20 6 nations.
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Post by whocares on Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:52 am

profitius wrote:Apparnetly the 6 nations are talking about bringing Georgia and Romania into the U20 6 nations.

that's actually a good idea : no real downside, decent upside if it works. would not hurt U20 teams to have a couple of more games and could help the development of the next Georgian and Romanian generations. if for some reason those teams are eventuallty competitive then they will have an even better case on opening the senior 6N.

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Post by Rowanbi on Fri 18 Mar 2016, 12:00 pm

profitius wrote:Apparnetly the 6 nations are talking about bringing Georgia and Romania into the U20 6 nations.

Great news thumbsup
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Post by marty2086 on Fri 18 Mar 2016, 1:31 pm

Maybe an idea would be to have the 6 Nations 'A' tournament return though rejigged.

It could be linked to the ENC and have promotion and relegation there or could be two pools with the top two teams playing in a final. Has the benefit of developing players for the Tier 1 nations, has the Tier 2 nations playing at a higher level and has the bonus of creating potential rivalries that can be built on in the future

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 18 Mar 2016, 1:32 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:It's not just the French clubs that block the availability of players, the english clubs have done it too. Also Georgia have been dropped from the u18 European championships after making it to the final (beating Ireland in the process). Still waiting for a reason as to why this is.

Since when were they dropped?

Did you come up with an answer yet?

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Post by Rowanbi on Fri 18 Mar 2016, 4:17 pm

marty2086 wrote:Maybe an idea would be to have the 6 Nations 'A' tournament return though rejigged.

It could be linked to the ENC and have promotion and relegation there or could be two pools with the top two teams playing in a final. Has the benefit of developing players for the Tier 1 nations, has the Tier 2 nations playing at a higher level and has the bonus of creating potential rivalries that can be built on in the future

thumbsup

That's also how I think a quadrennial European Rugby Championships could operate...
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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Fri 18 Mar 2016, 10:17 pm

marty2086 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:It's not just the French clubs that block the availability of players, the english clubs have done it too. Also Georgia have been dropped from the u18 European championships after making it to the final (beating Ireland in the process). Still waiting for a reason as to why this is.

Since when were they dropped?

Did you come up with an answer yet?
They made the final last year, then were dropped. Here is a thread on it http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=874&sid=7d57e446caf63bad287317f90894e104

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Post by Shifty on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 11:32 am

profitius wrote:Apparnetly the 6 nations are talking about bringing Georgia and Romania into the U20 6 nations.

No prospect of eastern Europe joining in 6 Nations - Page 5 Fyjo2

Good catch Smile
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 4:20 pm

Surely now Italys place is at risk!

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Post by HammerofThunor on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 4:37 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:It's not just the French clubs that block the availability of players, the english clubs have done it too. Also Georgia have been dropped from the u18 European championships after making it to the final (beating Ireland in the process). Still waiting for a reason as to why this is.

Since when were they dropped?

Did you come up with an answer yet?
They made the final last year, then were dropped. Here is a thread on it http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=874&sid=7d57e446caf63bad287317f90894e104

Sorry, not read the whole thing but that seems to be saying Georgia are in the U18 comp and the home nations have pulled out. Am I missing something?

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Post by Rowanbi on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 6:34 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Surely now Italys place is at risk!

Should be. A promotion-relegation fixture might just be the rocket-up-the-ass they need. They were disgraceful this year; possibly their worst year since joining. thumbsdown
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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 8:01 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:It's not just the French clubs that block the availability of players, the english clubs have done it too. Also Georgia have been dropped from the u18 European championships after making it to the final (beating Ireland in the process). Still waiting for a reason as to why this is.

Since when were they dropped?

Did you come up with an answer yet?
They made the final last year, then were dropped. Here is a thread on it http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=874&sid=7d57e446caf63bad287317f90894e104

Sorry, not read the whole thing but that seems to be saying Georgia are in the U18 comp and the home nations have pulled out. Am I missing something?
There is two u18 comps running at different times. One with Georgia, Romania, Spain etc and another with Ireland, England, Wales etc.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 8:14 pm

If nothing else, all this relegation talk should give the Italian union the kick up the ar$e it desperately needs because it certainly won't end here. The next thing that will come into question is their guaranteed spot in the Champions cup especially if the Osperys, Munster or Glasgow don't get top 6 and so on. They have become way to comfortable with all their guarantees that come with being a Tier 1 nation.

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Post by marty2086 on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 8:48 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:It's not just the French clubs that block the availability of players, the english clubs have done it too. Also Georgia have been dropped from the u18 European championships after making it to the final (beating Ireland in the process). Still waiting for a reason as to why this is.

Since when were they dropped?

Did you come up with an answer yet?
They made the final last year, then were dropped. Here is a thread on it http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=874&sid=7d57e446caf63bad287317f90894e104

Maybe you can tell me how Georgia were dropped from the tournament yet beat Romania yesterday? Headscratch

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Post by HammerofThunor on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 8:52 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:It's not just the French clubs that block the availability of players, the english clubs have done it too. Also Georgia have been dropped from the u18 European championships after making it to the final (beating Ireland in the process). Still waiting for a reason as to why this is.

Since when were they dropped?

Did you come up with an answer yet?
They made the final last year, then were dropped. Here is a thread on it http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=874&sid=7d57e446caf63bad287317f90894e104

Sorry, not read the whole thing but that seems to be saying Georgia are in the U18 comp and the home nations have pulled out. Am I missing something?
There is two u18 comps running at different times. One with Georgia, Romania, Spain etc and another with Ireland, England, Wales etc.

So what you meant was that the home nations and Italy pulled out of the European U18, rather than Georgia dropping out.

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Post by VinceWLB on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 8:53 pm

Georgia would do better than Italy given the same resources, in fact i would put money on it.

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Post by marty2086 on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 8:54 pm

VinceWLB wrote:Georgia would do better than Italy given the same resources, in fact i would put money on it.

picard

What resources are Georgia short of?

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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 9:00 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:It's not just the French clubs that block the availability of players, the english clubs have done it too. Also Georgia have been dropped from the u18 European championships after making it to the final (beating Ireland in the process). Still waiting for a reason as to why this is.

Since when were they dropped?

Did you come up with an answer yet?
They made the final last year, then were dropped. Here is a thread on it http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=874&sid=7d57e446caf63bad287317f90894e104

Maybe you can tell me how Georgia were dropped from the tournament yet beat Romania yesterday? Headscratch
Did you not read the thread?

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Post by Rowanbi on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 9:01 pm

marty2086 wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:Georgia would do better than Italy given the same resources, in fact i would put money on it.

picard

What resources are Georgia short of?

Money & players, relatively speaking
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Post by VinceWLB on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 9:02 pm

marty2086 wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:Georgia would do better than Italy given the same resources, in fact i would put money on it.

picard

What resources are Georgia short of?

Well when you are able to play France, England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland at home in a spawn of 2 years, you are given indirectly resources or whatever you want to call it. The Italy inclusion in the tournament has sadly been a failure.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 9:03 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:It's not just the French clubs that block the availability of players, the english clubs have done it too. Also Georgia have been dropped from the u18 European championships after making it to the final (beating Ireland in the process). Still waiting for a reason as to why this is.

Since when were they dropped?

Did you come up with an answer yet?
They made the final last year, then were dropped. Here is a thread on it http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=874&sid=7d57e446caf63bad287317f90894e104

Sorry, not read the whole thing but that seems to be saying Georgia are in the U18 comp and the home nations have pulled out. Am I missing something?
There is two u18 comps running at different times. One with Georgia, Romania, Spain etc and another with Ireland, England, Wales etc.

So what you meant was that the home nations and Italy pulled out of the European U18, rather than Georgia dropping out.
Well Georgian and Romanian fans say they were dropped. Why did the home nations pull out (if it was them)? they had a great format with promotion and relegation in a two division setup. The thing is once they seen Portgual and Georgia avoid the drop, they suddenly didn't want to know about the comp.

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Post by marty2086 on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 9:05 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:It's not just the French clubs that block the availability of players, the english clubs have done it too. Also Georgia have been dropped from the u18 European championships after making it to the final (beating Ireland in the process). Still waiting for a reason as to why this is.

Since when were they dropped?

Did you come up with an answer yet?
They made the final last year, then were dropped. Here is a thread on it http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=874&sid=7d57e446caf63bad287317f90894e104

Maybe you can tell me how Georgia were dropped from the tournament yet beat Romania yesterday? Headscratch
Did you not read the thread?

The thread that contradicts your statement you mean?

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Post by True Raven on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 9:05 pm

How has it been a failure? If you look at shiftys post on another thread, in the last World Cup cycle Italy had more six nations wins than Scotland....should we kick Scotland out too

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Post by marty2086 on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 9:06 pm

VinceWLB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:Georgia would do better than Italy given the same resources, in fact i would put money on it.

picard

What resources are Georgia short of?

Well when you are able to play France, England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland at home in a spawn of 2 years, you are given indirectly resources or whatever you want to call it. The Italy inclusion in the tournament has sadly been a failure.

Well Georgia have a billionaire financing them, if Italy had that they would dominate the 6 Nations

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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 9:08 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:It's not just the French clubs that block the availability of players, the english clubs have done it too. Also Georgia have been dropped from the u18 European championships after making it to the final (beating Ireland in the process). Still waiting for a reason as to why this is.

Since when were they dropped?

Did you come up with an answer yet?
They made the final last year, then were dropped. Here is a thread on it http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=874&sid=7d57e446caf63bad287317f90894e104

Maybe you can tell me how Georgia were dropped from the tournament yet beat Romania yesterday? Headscratch
Did you not read the thread?

The thread that contradicts your statement you mean?
Are we just going to pretend that the home unions and Italy with France coming eventually aren't going to setup a closed shop u18 comp? So yes to me that is dropped. You can get into specifics all you want, but what they want is clear.

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Post by marty2086 on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 9:09 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
So what you meant was that the home nations and Italy pulled out of the European U18, rather than Georgia dropping out.
Well Georgian and Romanian fans say they were dropped. Why did the home nations pull out (if it was them)? they had a great format with promotion and relegation in a two division setup. The thing is once they seen Portgual and Georgia avoid the drop, they suddenly didn't want to know about the comp.

You're asking why the home nations left then you're telling us they are running scared? You're trying to back up your opinions with more of your opinions

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Post by marty2086 on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 9:09 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:It's not just the French clubs that block the availability of players, the english clubs have done it too. Also Georgia have been dropped from the u18 European championships after making it to the final (beating Ireland in the process). Still waiting for a reason as to why this is.

Since when were they dropped?

Did you come up with an answer yet?
They made the final last year, then were dropped. Here is a thread on it http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=874&sid=7d57e446caf63bad287317f90894e104

Maybe you can tell me how Georgia were dropped from the tournament yet beat Romania yesterday? Headscratch
Did you not read the thread?

The thread that contradicts your statement you mean?
Are we just going to pretend that the home unions and Italy with France coming eventually aren't going to setup a closed shop u18 comp? So yes to me that is dropped. You can get into specifics all you want, but what they want is clear.

France are still taking part in it

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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 9:10 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:It's not just the French clubs that block the availability of players, the english clubs have done it too. Also Georgia have been dropped from the u18 European championships after making it to the final (beating Ireland in the process). Still waiting for a reason as to why this is.

Since when were they dropped?

Did you come up with an answer yet?
They made the final last year, then were dropped. Here is a thread on it http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=874&sid=7d57e446caf63bad287317f90894e104

Maybe you can tell me how Georgia were dropped from the tournament yet beat Romania yesterday? Headscratch
Did you not read the thread?

The thread that contradicts your statement you mean?
Are we just going to pretend that the home unions and Italy with France coming eventually aren't going to setup a closed shop u18 comp? So yes to me that is dropped. You can get into specifics all you want, but what they want is clear.

France are still taking part in it
Hence why I used the word "eventually"

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Post by marty2086 on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 9:31 pm

England, Ireland and France have dominated and Georgia were only the 4th team to make the final

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 10:43 pm

True Raven wrote:How has it been a failure?  If you look at shiftys post on another thread, in the last World Cup cycle Italy had more six nations wins than Scotland....should we kick Scotland out too

For me it's the manner of the loss. Sure Scotland have had a bad spell and it looks like we are starting to emerge from the woods now, but even in our darkest moments we didn't ship over 100 points over 2 games.
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Post by VinceWLB on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 10:49 pm

Italy are no more competitive in 2016 than they were in 2000 when they 1st entered the tournament. A parallel can be made about their teams in the pro 12 as well. Italy clearly hasn't developed as a rugby nation as well as hoped.

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Post by SecretFly on Sat 19 Mar 2016, 11:56 pm

Maybe the other teams should start laying off the 'super-fit' medication???  Every time Italy get close, the rest seem to miraculously even get fitter again, and much faster, and harder, and stronger again, and less prone to injuries................

Wow...take a bow all you Fitness and Conditioning coaches....... the game is in a way becoming miraculous in its intensity yet rapid fire recovery rates....... Whistle

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Post by VinceWLB on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 12:02 am

Good point SF, just watched the Jaguares-Chiefs game and the intensity was astonishing, even in the last few minutes of the game. Wouldn't be surprised at all if there is more than meet the eye in rugby.

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Post by marty2086 on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 12:03 pm

VinceWLB wrote:Italy are no more competitive in 2016 than they were in 2000 when they 1st entered the tournament. A parallel can be made about their teams in the pro 12 as well. Italy clearly hasn't developed as a rugby nation as well as hoped.  

Why people keep using 2016 as a mark of where Italy are at is beyond me when Brunel has continually experimented and used semi pro players and inexperienced players, not great in the short term but should pay of in the long term

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Post by Welly on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 12:36 pm

Romania Has no chance in the 6N's yet.

Georgia has a great chance to be competitive.

Their is a market in Georgia to be be bigger than Football in the whole country pretty much in places it is already bigger than Football.

The perfect thing would be a 7N's for me BUT an extra fixture will not be wanted by most involved.

TBH the whole Global calender needs resorting IMO.


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Post by True Raven on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 1:37 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
True Raven wrote:How has it been a failure?  If you look at shiftys post on another thread, in the last World Cup cycle Italy had more six nations wins than Scotland....should we kick  Scotland out too

For me it's the manner of the loss. Sure Scotland have had a bad spell and it looks like we are starting to emerge from the woods now, but even in our darkest moments we didn't ship over 100 points over 2 games.

You were our record victory in the six nations until yesterday when we beat you by 50 points...... two years ago....and we're not exactly the all blacks.

I'm not advocating any team gets kicked out but it's annoying when Italy get all this nonsense and Scotland get off Scot free when the reality is in the past World Cup cycle, Scotland were the worst team. I bet last year when Italy beat scotland and Scotland failed to win a game, no one was suggesting Scotland to be replaced by Georgia. If cotter can change things around with Scotland then why can't people give Italy a bit of time with a quality proven coach like o'shea in charge

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 2:12 pm

I laugh.... because if Wales needed an Italy game on the final day to win a Slam they'd gladly take it.

And the same is true for all sides.  But when the deal is done and the show is over it's back to the 'purist' pretensions and the heavy-set frowns of righteous annoyance that such a poor team is allowed stain the reputation of our 'Great' Competition.

Look at it another way...  Wales traditionally start poorly and end up strong.  Italy can often start strong (and influence the final result by not giving one team as many points as they were expecting in those first weeks) - but then drift off in quality as the attrition rate that can hit you when you face England, Wales, France, Ireland and Scotland over a number of weeks becomes apparent.

This surprises people that Italy would suffer so each year as they face sides with much more strength in depth?  People are angry with Italy that they implode under that pressure most years?

So on to Georgia - in a one off game they might play harder rugby than the Italians.  Now what would they do through a 6N season?  Where would they be by the end?  Still fit and footloose and fancy free?
And where would they be after a few seasons of that...PLUS the extra big games they'd get from SH sides, given that they'd be a 6N side.  How would they deal with SH treatment Summer and Autumn and then yet another 6N in the Spring?  No time to regroup... schedules to keep.... and no surprise factor either.  All NH sides familiar with the style and personnel, and planning for it well in advance.

Where would Georgia be?  They'd perhaps give another few hard hitting games in the beginning.  But would they really have the players to last, or even the players to pick from, as their better players perhaps nurse some heavy duty injuries from playing a few seasons of rugby against much tougher opponents than they're currently used to playing against?

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Post by robbo277 on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 3:13 pm

Relegation isn't about targetting Italy or trying to run them out of town. It's about being meritocratic.

The fact that Italy have 10 spoons in 16 years and are the only team who would perhaps sweat a home and away playoff either Georgia should be more a concern for them than anything.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 3:53 pm

It is exactly about targeting Italy and running them out of town.  That's exactly what the mood has been these last number of years as money greed takes hold like an addiction...
... both at Club level and International..the smarmy sideswipes at Italian sides, the continuous belittling of them...but like I say, how many Championships and Slams have been 'hard earned' by using them to slice through and ratchet up a score?  

Is the 6N prepared to throw the records of these last 15 years or so in the bin and start over if Italy go?  Are the teams that used them in a path to the Championship going to say their victories were nullified by the complexity of Italy being present and the disparity often between Italy on first day and Italy on last day?

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Post by Rowanbi on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 4:07 pm

Georgia way too good for the ENC, Italy merely cannon fodder in the 6 Nations this year, what's the solution? A promotion-relegation fixture perhaps? No way, not in the closed-shop environment of international rugby's stratified world order.
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Post by catchweight on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 4:22 pm

I would be in favour of a play off system. The winner of Tier 2 deserve the opportunity and it might give the potential wooden spoon candiates more incentive to play with ambition all the way through the tournament.

Having said that, swapping in Georgia for Italy is unlikely to change any of the dynamics of the competition. I just think the worst placed 6 Nations team deserve to have play for their place and teams rolling over in the final week with nothing to play for should be discouraged as much as possible.

Itays final week performances in the competition for the last two years have been disagraceful. No sympathy for them if they had to enter into a play off.

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Post by Rowanbi on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 4:24 pm

Yes, let the 6 Nations team play the fixture at home, so that the challenger would have to prove itself thoroughly worthy to gain promotion. But, as you say, this would be one way to ensure teams don't just give up once they're out of contention.
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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 4:40 pm

True Raven wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
True Raven wrote:How has it been a failure?  If you look at shiftys post on another thread, in the last World Cup cycle Italy had more six nations wins than Scotland....should we kick  Scotland out too

For me it's the manner of the loss. Sure Scotland have had a bad spell and it looks like we are starting to emerge from the woods now, but even in our darkest moments we didn't ship over 100 points over 2 games.

You were our record victory in the six nations until yesterday when we beat you by 50 points...... two years ago....and we're  not exactly the all blacks.

I'm not advocating any team gets kicked out but it's annoying when Italy get all this nonsense and Scotland get off Scot free when the reality is in the past World Cup cycle, Scotland were the worst team.  I bet last year when Italy beat scotland and Scotland failed to win a game, no one was suggesting Scotland to be replaced by Georgia.  If cotter can change things around with Scotland then why can't people give Italy a bit of time with a quality proven coach like o'shea in charge

Our best player was red carded in the first quarter against a team that specialise in hammering the back line. Wales running riot was inevitable.

It was a dark day for Scotland but Italy got hammered with 15 men on the pitch. 2 weeks in a row!

We were at least competitive in our other games!
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Post by SecretFly on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 5:01 pm

So, what we're really talking about is a 6N with 'Guest' team every year.  A promotional exercise to spread the 'lurve'? Wink

The thing about relegation.... and why even the English club league were thinking about ending it (they might still be for all I know).... but the thing about it is that once you're caught beside that trapdoor, it can become so hard to actually THINK about what you're meant to be thinking about when in the Competition.... ie, playing well enough to win it.  The new focus each year becomes surviving the trap-door.... and it's the trap door you're looking at.  You're looking behind you when all your attention should be in front of you.

It's not a simple game (promotion and relegation). It is a serious business game and influences everything, like I've alluded to before.  It influences the interest of proper sponsors, it interferes with the kind of money that can be directed at development (whether that's schools or academies), it defines whether a player wishes to go on or retire, the fall-off in fans etc.  

There are so many factors to the process that the threat of relegation forces teams to concentrate on winning the battle for the bottom rather than use their limited resources to attack the top.  It creates a sub-class of trap-door jumpers that have their own cyclical little yearly contest at the bottom for survival purposes - two or more teams with their eye not fully on the ball.  It's a handicap for teams already struggling to the top to be told they should watch their arses too.

They'll watch their arses more, because that will mean a degree of financial survival and viability.  Better to serve in Heaven (6N) than rule in Hell (2nd tier).

And.... I firmly believe teams at the top love relegation/promotion because in a real sense it takes pressure off them at the top and creates that class system between some that always can look up and the poor sods who must always hold something back to fight it out for bottom.

So in short...it's a great idea.  And as I've said before, let's see an experiment with the process at International level.  Let the SH Championship have the honours and have a playoff between Japan and bottom Championship side in a promotion/relegation fight for a few years to see if it would work.

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Post by Rowanbi on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 5:12 pm

Why Japan? They're not in the Southern Hemisphere. Also, Samoa and/or Fiji would probably beat them. Tonga might even beat them. First of all, there needs to be some kind of second tier equivalent of the Rugby Championship. But the promotion-relegation fixture is definitely worth a look at. I know about the financial considerations, sponsorship and development, etc, and that's a valid point. However, I don't buy into the idea that it will create a "sub class of trapdoor jumpers." That sub class will only arise once teams are out of contention for the big prize. At that stage, it's better that they are fighting to avoid the trapdoor" than simply showing up because they have to...
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Post by catchweight on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 5:13 pm

If the last placed 6 Nations team loses a play off to the top teir 2 side, they dont deserve their place in the next years competition. Simple as that really. Let teams earn their place on merit rather than sympathy.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 5:14 pm

Rugby World Cup 2015

Samoa 5-26 Japan

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 5:31 pm

Rowanbi wrote:Why Japan? They're not in the Southern Hemisphere. Also, Samoa and/or Fiji would probably beat them. Tonga might even beat them. First of all, there needs to be some kind of second tier equivalent of the Rugby Championship. But the promotion-relegation fixture is definitely worth a look at. I know about the financial considerations, sponsorship and development, etc, and that's a valid point. However, I don't buy into the idea that it will create a "sub class of trapdoor jumpers." That sub class will only arise once teams are out of contention for the big prize. At that stage, it's better that they are fighting to avoid the trapdoor" than simply showing up because they have to...

That's not so Rowanbi. Do you think Italy aren't aware of how bad they are.... especially deeper into the contest when they've had injuries or are just exhausted? Italy I'm sure are proud but they are no fools - they see their current limitations too.

So let's look at the creation of a Promotion/Relegation battle.... Italy less than half way through will be conscious that they might very well be the side fighting against Relegation. So even by mid-way they'll be refocusing to prepare to fight the good fight against a side not even in the 6N.
If they have some injuries, they'll be trying to preserve the rest of their better players as best they can for that 'after-game' of relegation. They won't focus on battling to win their remaining 6N games because the risks of losing more players to injury or fatigue will be too great. So.............. they again won't be giving a purposeful game to the 6N opponents, but now for an added reason. They now have two reasons why they are playing poorly, not one.

And if Georgia go up, they too will know their true quality. They'll give something a go in the first two games perhaps but then inevitably they'll begin to think of Italy brooding in Tier 2.... planning for an entire year how to get back into the 6N...and having a pretty easy year to do it with considering you say Georgia have outgrown that competition.

So Georgia must begin to think of that post-6N game more than the 6N games they're playing in. It's inevitable that sides with limited quality will be stressed even more when thinking about angles of attack from two flanks.

I know some of you absolutely adore the concept of Promotion/Relegation - but I think it a vehicle whereby the moneyed sides make the bottom of the table even less significant to them at the top...it divides their competition in two... the 'haves' and the 'hopeless'. Is that development? Not in my book.

BTW..Japan was just a suggestion. You choose which side gets to play the relegation game. I'll be keeping a keen eye on how that all pans out. Wink

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 5:37 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Rugby World Cup 2015

Samoa 5-26 Japan

Samoa had a 4 day turnaround from South Africa. RWC games cannot be viewed in isolation.

A play off isn't such a good idea. IMO it should be done over 2 legs, home and away.

However I'm not in favour of relegation. Georgia and Romania need more exposure but untill they start regularly taking 6N scalps they will remain in the wilderness.

Do they (Georgia and Romania) deserve more chances? That's another matter.

Italy have had a terrible tournament though
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Post by catchweight on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 5:48 pm

A closed shop 6 Nations is no development. I cant think of a better argument than having the 6 Nations reserved for the 6 most deserving teams.

Hold the play off in the Summer, well after the 6 Nations where both play offs teams have recovery time. The winner will deserve their place in the next tournament.

I think the added dimension of the possibility of relegation would make the competion more exciting as well as opening it up for a system of meritocrisy and an extra dimension to play for. Less dead rubber matches. Italy have had nearly 20 years of 6 nations "development" time. If they cant beat georgia in a play off, they really dont deserve to be in the comeption next year. Same goes for whoever gets the wooden spoon.

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