6N 2016: England v Wales, 12 March

First topic message reminder :

Seagultaf wrote:

True Raven wrote:Also the decision where foxy got tackled and the ball squirted out to north who had a run in.  To me it looked like an England defender knocked it backwards out of foxys grasp.  It mirrored the Liam Williams tackle in mike brown where he went to the tmo to see if it was a knock on or not.  Why not check both incidents though?

And north from the photos clearly got the ball away before he was out

That's what I Thought also. Not sure who caught the ball when North flicked it in field but he looked clean through on the try line. Very big descision!

Rees Webb!

With Warburton out, I think Wales should bring Owens, Charteris, Tipuric, Webb, Priestland and Anscombe, with Davies and Biggar on the bench and Cuthbert dropping out (Williams to wing).

I think Biggar and Roberts at 10/12 is slightly holding your attacking game back, Priestland and Webb got your attack going and I think you should also consider Scott Williams to start at 12 when he's fit.

kingelderfield wrote:

eirebilly wrote:How did you English fans find Manu Tuilagi's performance when he came on and does he deserve to start against France? If he does, will Farrell be the best option at 12 for him?

The 10/12 conundrum is still the crux of the issue. Is Tuilagi ready(to play 12 remember, not 13)? I say yes.

The issue is do you go with Ford or Farrell? Given the vast differences in ability/strengths and weaknesses, and form, then I fully expect Farrell to start.

I would pick Ford.

Added to this if Youngs throws another one of his stupid dummy's instead of giving the pass then he should be hauled off immediately. How many times did he waste possession yesterday. We have to be more clinical.

Care, Ford, Nowells, Tuilagi, Joseph, Watson, Brown.

Though I would still find places for Cipriani, Wade and Slade (if fit).

Care, Cipriani, Wade, Tuilagi, Joseph, Watson, Slade.

Care to start at 9 so he can aimlessly kick straight to their players and give them time to run the ball back? Youngs box kicks allowed us to compete and we're a weapon.

Youngs around the fringes took all the sting out of the Welsh defence. The defensive line couldn't race up because the rucks guards were locked in place trying to stop him picking off easy yards. His manipulation of the blindside defence caused further problems and with Wales stacking the guard and blindside we had more room out wide to attack. Joseph was a disappointment at 13. Not incisive enough to add to our threats out wide. Manu clearly is not fit enough and whilst the were a couple of flashes it's glaringly obvious he hasn't been in and around the squad or playing enough first team rugby.

No way should Wade be in ahead of Nowell who has been one of our best players this tournament, not as flashy as Watson on the wing but he makes good yardage and does a lot of unseen dirty work, he's a rock in defence.

Nowell also assisted in a couple of important defensive turnovers. He was probably the best winger on the pitch yesterday.

I think North was the best winger on the pitch personally, such a threat.

Wade needs to improve a lot to displace the current duo, he's not quite at that all round level of Watson & Nowell.

He was a threat for the last 10 minutes before which he was pretty invisible.

Really? I thought he was a real threat every time he got the ball...which wasn't that often the way Wales played in the first half.

I'm hearing that Marler may be in hot water for comments made to Lee in relation to his Irish Traveller heritage. Called him a gypo, or something similar aparently!

Hardly the worst thing to ever happen on a rugby pitch

Griff wrote:I'm hearing that Marler may be in hot water for comments made to Lee in relation to his Irish Traveller heritage. Called him a gypo, or something similar aparently!

Surely would just be 1 persons word over the other. Doubt he get in trouble for it. Will be for the punch though.

Marler is a fine one to talk

A lot of good to great performances from the England team. Youngs got carried away in the first half and should have passed the ball instead of dummying but his kicking was right on the money.

Robshaw had one of his best and dare I say it even looked like he wanted to carry.

Ford showed signs of brain fade in the second half. Did crazy stuff. It was right to take him off.

BTW Devoto looked no where near international quality on Friday night. I definitely would not want him in the squad just yet.

Manu will improve and he needs to because he's definitely not at the right place now.

A generally good all round shift from the pack. Stifled Wales for long periods.

Griff wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:It was nice to set the record straight after the RWC. Just shows Wales were a bit flukey because even their A Team couldn't win yesterday.

3 tries to 1.

You won through refereeing decisions.

Woah, woah, woah. England won because they walloped us. They did not win because of refereeing decisions.

No Vince was right, they won through shocking Joubert decisions going their way. And for all their talk about scoring tries, England get outscored three to one.

kingjohn7 wrote:

Griff wrote:I'm hearing that Marler may be in hot water for comments made to Lee in relation to his Irish Traveller heritage. Called him a gypo, or something similar aparently!

Surely would just be 1 persons word over the other. Doubt he get in trouble for it. Will be for the punch though.

It's on film I think.

Yeah, not the worst thing ever but I'm sure someone somewhere will construe this as a potentially racist comment and he'll be sanctioned. Role models, and all that. So, yes probably will be seen as over the top and an over reaction, but at the same time I can see why it would be something they'd be keen to stamp out.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:It was nice to set the record straight after the RWC. Just shows Wales were a bit flukey because even their A Team couldn't win yesterday.

3 tries to 1.

You won through refereeing decisions.

Woah, woah, woah. England won because they walloped us. They did not win because of refereeing decisions.

No Vince was right, they won through shocking Joubert decisions going their way. And for all their talk about scoring tries, England get outscored three to one.

Each to his own. I thought Joubert was fine one the whole. Nothing shocking about his decisions, IMO.

Mikey, you're embarrassing yourself.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:It was nice to set the record straight after the RWC. Just shows Wales were a bit flukey because even their A Team couldn't win yesterday.

3 tries to 1.

You won through refereeing decisions.

Woah, woah, woah. England won because they walloped us. They did not win because of refereeing decisions.

No Vince was right, they won through shocking Joubert decisions going their way. And for all their talk about scoring tries, England get outscored three to one.

Stop being a sore loser mikey_dragon. Yes Wales may have scored more tries than England.

But England out played them for over 60 minutes.

ENGLAND WON FAIR AND SQUARE.

BamBam wrote:Hardly the worst thing to ever happen on a rugby pitch

These comments have no place in our society, let alone on a rugby pitch where gentlemen are supposed to be playing. Marler was getting owned by Samson Lee and couldn't quite deal with it.

The TMO guided Joubert to let the eye-gouger go. That was the only fail really. He had a good game otherwise.

Hmm, like I said North wasn't touch: http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/14958246/england-show-how-far-come-six-nations-how-far-to-go
And the try that got disallowed was a clear try, that clearly went backwards off an England player. Just two of many lucky decisions to go England's way that afternoon, like all the lucky decisions with England not driving straight at the scrum, being offside, and lying all over the breakdown all game. Fair play to England for doing their homework on the amateur Joubert.

At scrum time I thought it was two good packs going at each other. All in all it was a good contest. I've never seen Marler scrummage so straight.

majesticimperialman wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:It was nice to set the record straight after the RWC. Just shows Wales were a bit flukey because even their A Team couldn't win yesterday.

3 tries to 1.

You won through refereeing decisions.

Woah, woah, woah. England won because they walloped us. They did not win because of refereeing decisions.

No Vince was right, they won through shocking Joubert decisions going their way. And for all their talk about scoring tries, England get outscored three to one.

Stop being a sore loser mikey_dragon. Yes Wales may have scored more tries than England.

But England out played them for over 60 minutes.

ENGLAND WON FAIR AND SQUARE.

Yeah they did, after you spent weeks talking up your apparent great try-scoring ability.

No fair and square about it, Wales can't beat 16 men, not many teams can. No surprise to see you and a bunch of others acting ungracious though.

I've complained about a fair amount of poor officiating over the years but nothing Joubert called yesterday cost Wales the game, as clueless as he seemed calling the scrums he seemed to have decided he was just going to share the decisions out 50/50 so no real impact on the overall game.
England clearly had the better game plan and a far stronger level of commitment yesterday, Wales suddenly woke up after the substitutions, but the fact remains that Gatland was far to slow to make the needed changes and still has no idea of a plan B. To make matters worse he seems intent on blaming the poor 1st half performance entirely on the players, so I guess it must have been their decision to run everything straight up the middle into the heart of England's defence repeatedly then follow that up by kicking the ball straight to the English back 3.
Well done Eddie Jones, England finally seem to have a coach that can get the best out of the quality players that have always been there. Unless the other NH nations do something different to keep up then we could be entering e period of England dominating NH rugby under him.

mikey_dragon wrote:Hmm, like I said North wasn't touch: http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/14958246/england-show-how-far-come-six-nations-how-far-to-go
And the try that got disallowed was a clear try, that clearly went backwards off an England player. Just two of many lucky decisions to go England's way that afternoon, like all the lucky decisions with England not driving straight at the scrum, being offside, and lying all over the breakdown all game. Fair play to England for doing their homework on the amateur Joubert.

Don't worry Mikey. I've been where you are at the moment. When your team gets bested and beaten you look to blame someone else. Usually the ref. You'll get over it. Trust me.

Wales have lost at Twickenham many times before and played much worse than this. I don't know why some fans are getting too over excited. It's always the hard one of the rotation when we have 2 away games in Dublin and Twickenham each season. Next season we have:

Week 1 (sunday) - Italy V Wales
Week 2 (saturday) - Wales V England
week off
Week 3 (saturday) - Scotland V Wales
week off
Week 4 (friday) - Wales V Ireland
Week 5 (saturday) - France V Wales

Frankly I think we have things much easier next season.

We must be pretty close to Wales in the IRB rankings now. We've just knocked over the 4TH ranked side. Eddie must be quite pleased with himself.

Shifty wrote:Wales have lost at Twickenham many times before and played much worse than this.  I don't know why some fans are getting too over excited.  It's always the hard one of the rotation when we have 2 away games in Dublin and Twickenham each season.  Next season we have:

Week 1 (sunday) - Italy V Wales
Week 2 (saturday) - Wales V England
week off
Week 3 (saturday) - Scotland V Wales
week off
Week 4 (friday) - Wales V Ireland
Week 5 (saturday) - France V Wales

Frankly I think we have things much easier next season.  

It is somewhat ironic that the season with fewer home games is viewed as the easier option but that is certainly correct.

We've lost plenty of times in Cardiff to both England and Ireland as well. Regardless of venue we can't start that poorly against decent sides. Semi got away with it against Ireland didn't yesterday. Think Gats needs to take some responsibility, not just say it's players. It happens regularly. Obviously England made us look bad by being good also but we didn't seem at races

mikey_dragon wrote:Hmm, like I said North wasn't touch: http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/14958246/england-show-how-far-come-six-nations-how-far-to-go
And the try that got disallowed was a clear try, that clearly went backwards off an England player. Just two of many lucky decisions to go England's way that afternoon, like all the lucky decisions with England not driving straight at the scrum, being offside, and lying all over the breakdown all game. Fair play to England for doing their homework on the amateur Joubert.

North wasn't in touch no.

The disallowed try - the ball did go back off the England player but was already going miles forward out of Davies (I think) hand anyway, so still a knock-on/forward pass, and arguably the offload in the build up to North's try was also forward.

On the flip side, Youngs never lost contact with the ball for his disallowed try, so it should have been awarded rather than a knock-on and Wales should have been down to 14 at the end for the eye contact.

Most Welsh fans and coaches/players seem to have taken this quite well. Kidding yourself if you think Joubert gave it to England.

englandglory4ever wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Hmm, like I said North wasn't touch: http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/14958246/england-show-how-far-come-six-nations-how-far-to-go
And the try that got disallowed was a clear try, that clearly went backwards off an England player. Just two of many lucky decisions to go England's way that afternoon, like all the lucky decisions with England not driving straight at the scrum, being offside, and lying all over the breakdown all game. Fair play to England for doing their homework on the amateur Joubert.

Don't worry Mikey. I've been where you are at the moment.  When your team gets bested and beaten you look to blame someone else. Usually the ref. You'll get over it. Trust me.

Evidently, you still aren't over the world cup loss.

thomh wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Hmm, like I said North wasn't touch: http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/14958246/england-show-how-far-come-six-nations-how-far-to-go
And the try that got disallowed was a clear try, that clearly went backwards off an England player. Just two of many lucky decisions to go England's way that afternoon, like all the lucky decisions with England not driving straight at the scrum, being offside, and lying all over the breakdown all game. Fair play to England for doing their homework on the amateur Joubert.

North wasn't in touch no.

The disallowed try - the ball did go back off the England player but was already going miles forward out of Davies (I think) hand anyway, so still a knock-on/forward pass, and arguably the offload in the build up to North's try was also forward.

On the flip side, Youngs never lost contact with the ball for his disallowed try, so it should have been awarded rather than a knock-on and Wales should have been down to 14 at the end for the eye contact.

Most Welsh fans and coaches/players seem to have taken this quite well. Kidding yourself if you think Joubert gave it to England.

Yep, it's just my opinion based on the laws and my understanding of how the game is played. I've never liked Joubert either, we've been on the receiving end when he officiates too many times. Sometimes it goes your way, other times it doesn't, that's just the way it is.

englandglory4ever wrote:We must be pretty close to Wales in the IRB rankings now. We've just knocked over the 4TH ranked side. Eddie must be quite pleased with himself.

Ignore the rankings, you beat us because you were a better team and deserved to. You have the bragging rights for at least 2-3 months until Wales play you at Twickenham again before the summer tours.

Surprised Wales were so abject until the charge down and Cole binning. Eng should've been 25 up and ht, we have to more clinical with the try line begging if England are going to compete with the SH. Thought jounbert was OK but a few 50/50s went our way. Supriesd Francis stayed on given the irb directive of contact in the eye area, although it was unintentional IMO. The last 10 mins was torture but fair play to Wales for the spirited fight back.

Breadvan wrote:Surprised Wales were so abject until the charge down and Cole binning. Eng should've been 25 up and ht, we have to more clinical with the try line begging if England are going to compete with the SH. Thought jounbert was OK but a few 50/50s went our way. Supriesd Francis stayed on given the irb directive of contact in the eye area, although it was unintentional IMO.  The last 10 mins was torture but fair play to Wales for the spirited fight back.

He seems to make contact with the nose. Gave it a right twang! Maybe that's why they were lenient (I.e. Nose rather than eyes)?

It looked deliberate to me. I will be very interested in the citing outcome

I agree. Looked bad.

Well, it was a misread game from beginning to end. Well, I actually don't know how the ITV boys were reading it in England...but certainly in Ireland, it was being misread in the commentary and then back at the office in the punter's chairs (one of which was Conor O'Shea)

England played well in the first half, but for me not nearly as sweetly as the guff that was coming at me from the commentary. It actually looked a lot of puff and very slim gains, so it was easy for me to see where and when this very predictable (in their comebackability) Welsh side might make a comeback. But nobody seemed to see it coming on the sidelines, with all the gushing talk about this England side now being on a level of their own in Europe.

And then the inevitable happened. The Welsh had kept their so so predictable attitude and fire so well disguised... ...that the English, yet again, seemed shocked by the force of the onslaught when it came. How many times has this Welsh team gotta do this before people get the message that the show ain't over until the fat lady sings????

I've been impressed by England so far over the last two years or so...they've showed signs of having all the ammo and intent needed to go a long long way (even with the WC blip taken into account). But yesterday for me showed that the climax of growth might come more rapidly than Jones might have wanted or planned for. They showed a vulnerable underbelly and looked again to be holding on by the fingers, and quite rattled by Welsh intensity levels at the end.

Finally got a chance to watch the game. We were at Twickenham yesterday but our friends had bought seats at pitch level behind the south Stands posts.

Very hard to get a picture of the game, that plus copious quantities of IPA.

Great day out and a very good game.

Well done England, it was like watching an England team from over a decade ago.

England were great at absorbing possession ferioucious in defence. Itoje is a star in the making. Ben Youngs had a superb game too.

Wales gave away so many penalties. Should have been smarter. Some silly some, well, debateable...

I thought Wales can take some good positives from the game as well as learn from some big negatives.

I am glad we scored a few tries and created some good attacking play.

Griff wrote:

Breadvan wrote:Surprised Wales were so abject until the charge down and Cole binning. Eng should've been 25 up and ht, we have to more clinical with the try line begging if England are going to compete with the SH. Thought jounbert was OK but a few 50/50s went our way. Supriesd Francis stayed on given the irb directive of contact in the eye area, although it was unintentional IMO.  The last 10 mins was torture but fair play to Wales for the spirited fight back.

He seems to make contact with the nose. Gave it a right twang! Maybe that's why they were lenient (I.e. Nose rather than eyes)?

They only had one camera angle and it was not clear what contact if any of significance was made so they simply gave the penalty and then leave it to the citing officer - how long do you want them to deliberate during a match?

mikey_dragon wrote:

thomh wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Hmm, like I said North wasn't touch: http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/14958246/england-show-how-far-come-six-nations-how-far-to-go
And the try that got disallowed was a clear try, that clearly went backwards off an England player. Just two of many lucky decisions to go England's way that afternoon, like all the lucky decisions with England not driving straight at the scrum, being offside, and lying all over the breakdown all game. Fair play to England for doing their homework on the amateur Joubert.

North wasn't in touch no.

The disallowed try - the ball did go back off the England player but was already going miles forward out of Davies (I think) hand anyway, so still a knock-on/forward pass, and arguably the offload in the build up to North's try was also forward.

On the flip side, Youngs never lost contact with the ball for his disallowed try, so it should have been awarded rather than a knock-on and Wales should have been down to 14 at the end for the eye contact.

Most Welsh fans and coaches/players seem to have taken this quite well. Kidding yourself if you think Joubert gave it to England.

Yep, it's just my opinion based on the laws and my understanding of how the game is played. I've never liked Joubert either, we've been on the receiving end when he officiates too many times. Sometimes it goes your way, other times it doesn't, that's just the way it is.

I also think Joubert asked the wrong question at the Cole non-try. Should have been "any reason I cannot award the try?."
There wasn't and for me it was a Try.
Can't believe Francis wasn't pinged and Joubert telling him to expect a call from the citing commission tells its own story.

I think your disappointment may be colouring your view Mikey. Understandable - you're clearly passionate. Sometimes it is unclear if you are a passionate rugby fan or a passionately anti-English.

If we could have had your 10 and 12 we'd have put a cricket score on you mind!

Like I said....12 months of the sad little WUMs crying about the ref.

Anyway, time to enjoy today's game, come on the Scots!

nobbled wrote:
I also think Joubert asked the wrong question at the Cole non-try. Should have been "any reason I cannot award the try?."  

He can only ask that if he has seen or thinks he has seen the grounding - he had not so he can only ask "try yes or no"

But you are right in that it was one of those where if he has asked "any reason not to award" it would have been given as a try

TJ wrote:

Griff wrote:

Breadvan wrote:Surprised Wales were so abject until the charge down and Cole binning. Eng should've been 25 up and ht, we have to more clinical with the try line begging if England are going to compete with the SH. Thought jounbert was OK but a few 50/50s went our way. Supriesd Francis stayed on given the irb directive of contact in the eye area, although it was unintentional IMO.  The last 10 mins was torture but fair play to Wales for the spirited fight back.

He seems to make contact with the nose. Gave it a right twang! Maybe that's why they were lenient (I.e. Nose rather than eyes)?

They only had one camera angle and it was not clear what contact if any of significance was made so they simply gave the penalty and then leave it to the citing officer - how long do you want them to deliberate during a match?

The TMO was satisfied there was contact and that it was reckless. He just wasn't sure as to the degree of intention.

As I understand it, recklessness is sufficient for a red card and lengthy ban, so he should have gone off.

What a hangover at was what a night and what a game.

Francis - I can't see a reason why he should have stuck his hand out. I do think it was more reckless than anything else because he could have done damage had he really meant to, but it was monumentally dumb

How was it reckless the guy lined up Cole and had a cheap shot.

Has to be cited and banned if Ashtons was deemed reckless

It's bluntly obvious that the guy should have got at least a yellow. There you go, TMOs are so certain they haven't seen enough to call a try, yet are also so certain that they haven't seen enough to know when a player Knowingly scrapes his fingers across the face/eye area of an opponent.

No doubt about it. It's there in vision - it's what the eyes see. I hate this 'bluff' zone where TMOs can claim they can't read intent. At the very least it should have been a 14 man game to the end for both sides.

thomh wrote:

TJ wrote:

Griff wrote:

Breadvan wrote:Surprised Wales were so abject until the charge down and Cole binning. Eng should've been 25 up and ht, we have to more clinical with the try line begging if England are going to compete with the SH. Thought jounbert was OK but a few 50/50s went our way. Supriesd Francis stayed on given the irb directive of contact in the eye area, although it was unintentional IMO.  The last 10 mins was torture but fair play to Wales for the spirited fight back.

He seems to make contact with the nose. Gave it a right twang! Maybe that's why they were lenient (I.e. Nose rather than eyes)?

They only had one camera angle and it was not clear what contact if any of significance was made so they simply gave the penalty and then leave it to the citing officer - how long do you want them to deliberate during a match?

The TMO was satisfied there was contact and that it was reckless. He just wasn't sure as to the degree of intention.

As I understand it, recklessness is sufficient for a red card and lengthy ban, so he should have gone off.

Reckless is yellow. Deliberate is red usually but not always

SecretFly wrote:It's bluntly obvious that the guy should have got at least a yellow.  There you go, TMOs are so certain they haven't seen enough to call a try, yet are also so certain that they haven't seen enough to know when a player Knowingly scrapes his fingers across the face/eye area of an opponent.

No doubt about it.  It's there in vision - it's what the eyes see.  I hate this 'bluff' zone where TMOs can claim they can't read intent.  At the very least it should have been a 14 man game to the end for both sides.

The way the game had broken up. The way that England seemed out on their feet, and the way Wales suddenly turned on the afterburners I don't think having Francis off would have changed much, but it did give Wales an edge which they did not deserve

They would have had to take probably a back row player off though at the next scrum which may have made a difference ...