Eddie's England squad for summer

by rozakthegoon Tue 22 Mar 2016, 2:06 pm

First topic message reminder :

Hello you lovely lot.

I've very much enjoyed your posts over this six nations. Great stuff.

I don't post much as I'm a bit of a novice (well a lot of really) but I'm always intrigued by your far more experienced wisdom. So:

The summer will bring a chance for Eddie to put more of his stamp on the team; who do you think stays the same and who changes? And who, if any, so you think might be bolters? (I know it's an oxymoron asking about bolters this early, but I'm going to do it anyway)

by yappysnap Sat 23 Apr 2016, 2:40 pm

If pick Diamond myself.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 23 Apr 2016, 5:03 pm

yappysnap wrote:Just out of interest if you could choose any coach out there as your scrum coach, who'd people pick?

Scrum Coach - Rowntree hands down for me.
Forwards Coach - Baxter or Diamond

by yappysnap Sun 24 Apr 2016, 2:30 am

I guess we may see just how good Rowntree is if he does come to Quins. Be interesting to see just what he can do with players when he gets more then just a couple of weeks with them.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun 24 Apr 2016, 2:42 am

I'd love Rowntree up at Falcons but I imagine he won't be cheap. The WC has tarnished a very good career with SL's idea of flankers in the front row seemingly under powering a powerful scrum.

I'm sure he'll be a great addition to Quins.

by king_carlos Sun 24 Apr 2016, 10:18 am

Rowntree is a terrific scrum coach. It's no coincidence that the next best pick for the 6 Nations was a guy who has worked so closely with Wig in the England set-ups - Ian Peel.

It's such a shame that the poorly thought out conditioning ruined his pack for the RWC. I'd be very interested to hear whether or not he argued against the work rate over power obsession at the time but got overruled by Farrell/Bomber. The only way we'll likely here that is if the RWC review were to be leaked again though...

Does Rob Hunter take charge of the scrum at Exeter?

Another to watch is Steve Boden who has been forwards coach at Jersey whilst they've been pumping out very strong scrummagers for a few seasons. He's moving to Leeds/Yorkshire Carnegie for next season, it'll be very interesting to see what he achieves with the academy products that Yorkshire pump out.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 24 Apr 2016, 7:37 pm

Tuilagi had a knee brace on his leg and may have sustained ligament damage yesterday.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 3:07 am

Saw an interview with Cole saying he's now a stone and a half heavier than at the world cup and feels much better for it. Reinforcing the mistake around what the best for the players fitness wise was.

by beshocked Mon 25 Apr 2016, 4:00 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think Eddie Jones should consider the following in his squad for the summer:

Matt Mullan - I'm not convinced by Mako Vunipola at the highest level and Mullan strikes me as a good, solid and safe pair of hands. Playing well and worth a look.

Ed Slater - I've long been a big fan of the Leicester man and I think Jones should give serious considering to using either Slater or Launchbury at lock (in partnership with Kruis) and testing Itoje at blindside.

Ben Morgan - not to replace Billy V in the XV, but as an impact sub. He's ideal for that role.

Dan Robson - it seems like Care and Youngs have been battling away for that 9 jersey for a long time, but there's a slickness of service in Robson's game that I really like. I'd like to see him given a chance.

Manu Tuilagi - he must be given an extended chance at 12. I firmly believe he can reach the highest levels in that position if used properly. He's never going to be a second playmaker, but Jones is clever enough to figure that out.

Christian Wade - I'm not a bandwagon supporter and have been calling for Wade well before the 6 try performance. I'm fully aware of his defensive deficiencies, but I honestly don't care. He is the most exciting runner ball in hand that England have produced since Jason Robinson. He needs to be used.

Anthony Watson - his place in the XV is assured, but it's at 15 that I want to see him given a chance. Life is unfair, which is what I'd say to Mike Brown who has done little wrong and an awful lot right, but if England are to reach the very top of international rugby then I believe they need their best and most thrilling attacking talents working together in tandem. A backline including Tuilagi, Joseph, Watson and Wade, with Eddie Jones in charge, is going to do special things.

After watching the ERCC semi finals I feel that the only two that have enhanced their chances are Robson and Wade.

Robson played very well and I was disappointed that Farrell took him out.

Wade looked dangerous, one of the only Wasps backs who really took the game to Saracens IMO.

Manu needs to show more - didn't see much from him vs Saints and well marshalled vs Racing Metro.

Can't see Eddie Jones deciding to accommodate Slater when Itoje is playing so well with Kruis. Slater is one of those players that needs to up his game IMO. Wasn't even starting for Leicester on the weekend.

Mullan didn't sufficiently get on top of the Sarries scrum, no George either.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 4:04 am

Disagree about Mullan, looked good for Wasps and given how in recent weeks Vunipola has struggled in the scrum and Marler has immediately walked back into controversy Mullan will surely be in the thoughts. May decide on what Hatley (though not sure if he's confirmed yet?) is looking for as it's him that'll have a big role in selections you would have thought.

by beshocked Mon 25 Apr 2016, 4:12 am

When do you ever agree?

Mako outplayed Mullan. Should be clear to anyone who watched the game.

Mako has struggled in the scrum and this was a chance for Mullan to make a statement, instead it was Mako who was the better LH. Held his own at scrum time but it was his workrate which clearly put him ahead of Mullan, 19 tackles, couple of turnovers, 13 carries. I thought Mako was one of the most influential players on the pitch personally.

I know you think it's Sarries bias but it isn't I would happily say Robson out played Wigglesworth and Wade did the same to Ashton.

Sarries won because even though not all their big names performed enough did.

Wasps needed the likes of launchbury,Haskell,Mullan and Hughes to win their H2H battles. They didn't.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 4:28 am

I agree about Wade and Robson. Wade still down the pecking order but he offers what no other English winger can at the moment. Beats players with ease. Robson has just looked class.

Thought Wasps scrum was strong overall, Cittadini was good against Vunipola, McIntyre wasn't! I personally think Mullan is the best loosehead we have in the scrum, Vunipola the best by a mile outside of the setpiece. Whoever the 2 are in the match squads I'd have Vunipola on the bench, just think he offers much more from there.

Good to see Launchbury getting back to his best as well.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 4:35 am

Or even Swainston, to get my props the right way round. McIntrye came on for Mullan and 'impressed'.

by beshocked Mon 25 Apr 2016, 4:49 am

Really? I thought the scrum was pretty much equal. Thought it was a non factor.

Wasps needed superiority not parity because Mako outplayed Mullan around the park. Also with the Saracens lineout being so strong tough to make headway there.

Launchbury has the workrate but him and Davies as a 2nd row combo were 2nd best on the day.

I said before the game - 2nd row would an important battleground and not for the first time Itoje showed why he's such an influential player - only 1 game lost this entire season for club and country.

Wasps needed more from their forwards.

Billy outplayed Hughes too. Hughes wasn't really allowed to get into his stride. I wouldn't say Hughes was bad, just his opposition number was better.

Fraser has enhanced his England prospects too.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 4:55 am

Itoje was good, expecially at disrupting the lineout, much improved even since the start of the season here as it looked his only downside. Great strides being made. Will be interesting to see the changes at Wasps next season, You have the potential of a very good front row Mullan, Taylor, Cooper-Wooley and Cipriani back too. Lot of teams now having good groups of Englishmen playing together gives cause for more optimism.

Saracens were well worth their victory, I think in the coming months we'll be seeing these 2 making up the majority of Englands pack.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 25 Apr 2016, 4:57 am

Billy had a quiet game tbh, not sure if he outplayed Hughes.

Hughes was targeted by Sarries from the off as the primary Wasps carrying outlet. He sometimes had 2 or 3 guys on him.

Mako outplayed Mullen. The scrum was pretty even and Mako was excellent in the loose. His problem is though, is that he is not a good scrummager in the slightest. He has a tendency to either collapse or buckle against a half decent Th, he shouldn't be starting for England util he sorts his set piece work out.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 25 Apr 2016, 4:59 am

Interestingly I was not impressed with Billy or Fraser's performances, solid but no more. Rhodes though I thought was excellent.

by beshocked Mon 25 Apr 2016, 5:13 am

I am not sure that Wasps are going to be much stronger, losing Smith and Piutau are quite big blows. No replacement for either yet.

Certainly from a leadership point of view.

We'll see but on paper Mullan,Taylor,Cooper-Wooley doesn't strike me with fear. Maybe Dai Young can turn them into a powerful unit.

Londontiger and Sgt Pooly entitled to your opinions personally I felt Rhodes,Fraser and Billy dealt very well with the highly rated Wasps backrow. I know it's not just 6,78 vs 6,7,8 but the Wasps backs weren't really allowed to get in their stride because the Wasps pack weren't on top.

Daly for example I felt was almost a bystander. It's because he wasn't really brought into the game. Wade seemed electric despite the lack of ball.

Mako isn't a great scrummager but in a match where the scrum is either parity or a non factor then his importance is enhanced.

Saracens aren't a side that relies on the scrum, their bread and butter is the lineout. Unsurprising in territory based gameplan.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 5:19 am

I think we could looking at something like:

Mullan, George, Cole
Kruis/Launchbury Itoje
Hughes Clifford
Vunipola

subs Vunipola, LCD, Thomas/Hill (will be Brookes prob), Kruis/Launchbury, Ewers

Really wouldn't mind that come next season.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 25 Apr 2016, 5:23 am

I'm not overly convinced with bringing Mullen in, but I like the make up of the back 5.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 5:26 am

You'll all come to love him after Marler takes his enforced break this summer.

by beshocked Mon 25 Apr 2016, 5:29 am

no 7 & 1/2 who runs the lineout if it's Itoje-Launchbury. Still not convinced by Launchbury as a lineout lock and Itoje doesn't run the lineout, his job is to attack the opposition ball and be a 2nd jumper.

Sgt Pooly certainly wouldn't lack for power. Think workrate would be fine too but it's the lineout I would have doubts over if you don't put in Lawes or Kruis.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 5:32 am

Launchbury is also much improved in the lineout. Doesn't get up as quick as Itoje or Kruis though. I'm sure that Borthwick will be working on/with all his locks on this. I know LT has had his doubts on them 2 being strong enough as well but I think it would work. I think some of it comes from the idea that Launchbury just isn't used in the lineout which is wrong.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 25 Apr 2016, 5:34 am

Launchbury offers very little in the lineout imo, he's not in the greatest of form. Davies pretty much did all of the line out work at the weekend and he's quite a lump himself.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 5:37 am

Why do you feel he doesn't offer much in the lineout Sgt, was used plenty and it was Itoje jumping against Davies casuing the issues? Thouhht he was back to his best on Saturday. Best lock on the field and best Wasps forward.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 5:43 am

Jones may well have half an eye on trying Itoje at 6, despite how well that went with Lawes?

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 25 Apr 2016, 5:55 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why do you feel he doesn't offer much in the lineout Sgt, was used plenty and it was Itoje jumping against Davies casuing the issues? Thouhht he was back to his best on Saturday. Best lock on the field and best Wasps forward.

I thought Kruis and Itoje completely outplayed him tbh. Sarries were able to target Davies as he was the only one really getting up. I had to double check the team sheets at one point as I didn't believe Lauchbury was playing.

I'm a huge fan of JL but he just doesn't seem like the same player of a few seasons back, simlar to Lawes in some respects.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 6:00 am

Funny, saw him taking plenty in the lineout, carrying well, tackling well. Itoje was proiminent, especially at the lineout and disrupting (but not Launchbury) and Barnes does love him now. Kruis did nothing wrong but wasn't at the standards he's set so far this season. Fair enough though, I've read a couple of newspaper reports and obviously Barnes' motm which don't agree.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 25 Apr 2016, 6:02 am

Yea I wasn't too convinced on Itoje motm either, although he had a good game. I'd have properly went with Mako.

by beshocked Mon 25 Apr 2016, 6:03 am

Agree Sgt Pooly- Launchbury I think has a good engine but the lineout is not his strength. If he wants to put himself back into England contention I feel he has to work on.

Kruis,Itoje and Lawes all ahead in that area in my opinion.

I would say it's Kruis vs Lawes, Itoje vs Launchbury.

Giving us two 2nd rows

Kruis-Itoje
Lawes-Launchbury

no 7 & 1/2 pretty sure Itoje stole a lineout meant for Launchbury. Remember seeing it on the TV in highlights.

Why break a successful 2nd row combo?

by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 6:06 am

Could be wrong beshocked but I think Launchbury claimed everything aimed at him. I think Itoje and Kruis will continue to start in Aus, but I doubt Kruis will keep Launchbury from taking back the shirt that's all. The team above was obviously for the AIs not Aus.

by Geordie Mon 25 Apr 2016, 6:15 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Saw an interview with Cole saying he's now a stone and a half heavier than at the world cup and feels much better for it. Reinforcing the mistake around what the best for the players fitness wise was.

Wow that a big difference!

by bluestonevedder Mon 25 Apr 2016, 6:19 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Saw an interview with Cole saying he's now a stone and a half heavier than at the world cup and feels much better for it. Reinforcing the mistake around what the best for the players fitness wise was.

Wow that a big difference!

Could definitely see that he was underweight at the world cup. In Rowntree's defence, what the hell was he supposed to do with a front row giving away almost 10-20kg each to the opposition? Ridiculous.

by Geordie Mon 25 Apr 2016, 6:23 am

Have I heard right that Manu is injured again.
Watching the match yesterday I saw he had to get some strapping on through the game. Wonder how serious?

by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 6:24 am

That was from memory in the Saturday paper. Pretty sure that was the weight difference though. Sure there'll be a Leicester fan who could confirm? Coles also said they moved away from training heavily on the scrum as they thought they had it cracked and have moved back to the basic under the new regime; so maybe Rowntree does have a couple of questions his way.

by king_carlos Mon 25 Apr 2016, 6:30 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
no 7&1/2 wrote:Saw an interview with Cole saying he's now a stone and a half heavier than at the world cup and feels much better for it. Reinforcing the mistake around what the best for the players fitness wise was.

Wow that a big difference!

Players as big as Cole lose up to 5kg (11 pounds) during a game these days because of their sheer size and how much they eat!

On the one hand that could be Cole taking the lightest he was during the RWC, so after a whole game probably, and comparing it to the heaviest he is now, after his Saturday night Pizza. In which case a stone and a half could be a bit of exaggeration to nail home his point.

On the other hand, for a bloke with his build he could realistically have put that kind of weight back on in that time given how much he reportedly lost during the pre-RWC boot camps. It's not a secret that he hated being told to slim down as it massively effected his scrummaging. For a guy who had a neck injury like his an added worry about scrummaging is the last thing he ever needed in his mind as well.

He still isn't back to his best with his ruck work but his scrummaging was back up there on Sunday against Racing. Eddy Ben Arous finished most of the scrums on his face/bely as he chose to go to deck due to the pressure Cole was putting him under. The one time DC was pinged felt VERY harsh as Tigers were going forward and Ben Arous clearly dragged his bind down to try to halt that side of the scrum from going further back.

by king_carlos Mon 25 Apr 2016, 6:38 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Have I heard right that Manu is injured again.
Watching the match yesterday I saw he had to get some strapping on through the game. Wonder how serious?

It happened about midway through the first half I believe but he finished the game and didn't show any ill effects. It was his left knee being strapped, as soon as it was done he ran back out and the physio didn't seem overly concerned or intent on taking him off. Given how high profile Manu's injuries have been I'm pretty certain the physio would have taken him straight off if there was any doubt.

Probably one of the many cases of a player slightly twisting his knee in contact or taking a slight knock whilst jackaling and just strapping it to be safe.

I thought Manu did well with very limited opportunities yesterday. Given how poor Tigers handling was (and how good the Racing defence is) his main role ended up being attempts to carry 4 men over the gain line to desperately salvage some quick ball. Whilst I don't like seeing him used solely as a battering ram (his distribution since coming back from injury and working with Mauger has been much improved) it did at least show that his injuries haven't diminished his crash ball abilities at all.

by Geordie Mon 25 Apr 2016, 6:57 am

The problem with a Manu injury is that it takes us closer to bloomin Teo being picked!!! Crying or Very sad

by king_carlos Mon 25 Apr 2016, 7:10 am

I hadn't thought about that GF Sad

I fear it's already coming though.

10.Ford, Farrell
12.Tuilagi, Slade
13.Joseph, Daly

Those are all nailed on if fit. Given that summer tours usually take big squads there will likely be one more who travels for cover and the mid week game. Farrell was picked at 12 ahead of Hill/Devoto that extra man could be another 10 with Faz covering centre... Enter Cipriani or possibly Burns given his good form.

More likely though that Eddie will take another 12 and given that he didn't view Hill or Devoto as good enough during the 6 Nations I doubt much has changed now. I really don't see what Te'o does better than Hill though. He's as solid defensively and good in contact but other than that his distribution is probably even more limited than Hill and his kicking game just as non-existent. Plus he's 29 so not going to improve much more.

by Geordie Mon 25 Apr 2016, 8:41 am

Totally agree.

I totally buy in to the idea we pick players for games NOW, and the squad will fix itself for the next world cup.

However in certain cases you have to use a little common sense.
Id prefer to stick with Farrell at 12 for the moment (Tuilagi if he is fit and move Farrell to 10).

So if we want a "solid type of centre" then we can pick HIll or someone.

by propdavid_london Mon 25 Apr 2016, 10:22 am

Whats the story with Ben Teo GF?
Is he just another League convert that is trying to make it in union? Anyone know why this guy is going to be any different to the others?

by beshocked Mon 25 Apr 2016, 10:31 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Totally agree.

I totally buy in to the idea we pick players for games NOW, and the squad will fix itself for the next world cup.

However in certain cases you have to use a little common sense.
Id prefer to stick with Farrell at 12 for the moment (Tuilagi if he is fit and move Farrell to 10).

So if we want a "solid type of centre" then we can pick HIll or someone.

Based on current form I wouldn't want Farrell at 10 or Manu at 12 - disappointed by both on the weekend, Farrell much more so, needs to rediscover his form soon!

by **LondonTiger** Mon 25 Apr 2016, 10:39 am

propdavid_london wrote:Whats the story with Ben Teo GF?
Is he just another League convert that is trying to make it in union? Anyone know why this guy is going to be any different to the others?

Was team-mate (and room mate) of Burgess at the Rabittohs. Unlike Slammin Sam he was actually a back in League. Coming to the end of a two year contract with Leinster where, unless Dubliners can say otherwise, I believe he has been solid but not necessarily amazing. Certainly looked OK but nothing special in this years Champions Cup. Is part English on his mother's side. Joining Worcester for next season.

by propdavid_london Mon 25 Apr 2016, 11:00 am

Well, sounds like a lot of the other League imports! I would prefer him to have at least a full season in the prem first and let him bed in. 2yrs with Leinster certainly means hes had more union time than Burgess. Would rather not have him fast tracked into England...........Burrell might just go atomic if he gets overlooked for another project Smile

by lostinwales Mon 25 Apr 2016, 11:07 am

propdavid_london wrote:Well, sounds like a lot of the other League imports! I would prefer him to have at least a full season in the prem first and let him bed in. 2yrs with Leinster certainly means hes had more union time than Burgess. Would rather not have him fast tracked into England...........Burrell might just go atomic if he gets overlooked for another project

If it made him play better then he might get picked....

by beshocked Mon 25 Apr 2016, 11:09 am

If there's a centre that England need to gamble on then it should be Harry Mallinder IMO.

by Welly Mon 25 Apr 2016, 11:15 am

I have said it before i'll say it again Mallinder and Williams should both be England 12 and 13 for the JRWC IMO.

Yes both are well above it but i want England to be able to use them like NZ did the ioanes and Li, and dominate our Home RWC.

by Geordie Mon 25 Apr 2016, 11:23 am

Yeah I think I agree Welly. Let them try to win the JWC. That's a big honour...players like Itoje etc have done it.

No point rushing them to Australia, where they'll likely not get much gametime anyway.

Beshocked,
Hopefully being in the England squad will jump them back into form. I thought manu was in good form anyway. Quiet against Racing, but they were smashing the defence as a collective, and Leiceter couldn't change their tactical attacking. I would much prefer Farrell at ten though. Has Ford done enough to keep the shirt?

by beshocked Mon 25 Apr 2016, 11:45 am

welly

If it's between Teo and H.Mallinder I would pick H.Mallinder every time regardless of his age.

Two players, particularly centres aren't going to help us dominate a RWC IMO.

Would rather give H.Mallinder experience at senior level. What's he going to learn from U20s?

Geordie let's be honest I don't think England will win it this year, it's not a stellar U20s squad, best to think of the senior side in this case.

I thought Manu was quiet vs Saints too.

Ford hasn't done enough to keep the shirt but to me it seemed as if Farrell was not focused on the game on the weekend. Farrell Jr needs up his game if he's going to take the shirt off Ford.

It's worrying. Form of the 9s doesn't bode well either.

by yappysnap Mon 25 Apr 2016, 1:07 pm

Yea Youngs was terrible, Care a lot better but then against little pressure, against Sarries the week before he was poor too.

I'd still probably start Youngs and have Care on the bench but we must try another 9 on the tour to give those two some competition.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 25 Apr 2016, 2:38 pm

Hopefully Robson will be fit, he was the pick of the English SHs.

Got to say that I am surprised about what people thought of Young's performance - I guess those of us at the ground get a different view - not always the most informed.

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