Telegraph "bravest players ever"

So, the Telegraph posted a list of the 15 Bravest Rugby Players Ever this week.

Telegraph article

Maybe I was being a bit oversensitive, but I was a bit put out that their list didn't even mention this chap Arthur Harrison. A full England international and a VC, I'd suggest that he's got a better claim to be on that list than any of the ones put forward, especially when you read what he got the VC for - leading a suicide raid in WWI, despite having been shot in the jaw.

The Telegraph hasn't opened the article for comment, so I thought I'd invite the good folk of 606 to suggest other players who are worthy to be on the list. (Buck Shelford can keep his spot, by the way).

Hmmm dunno...

Colin Meads broke his arm during a game early on, he put it in a sling and carried on playing!

Probably Buck Shelford wins over all, he had his testicles ripped open by French forwards in a ruck, he walked to the side of the pitch, had them put back in his ball sack, and sewn up while on the side of the field, then carried on with the game!

The legend that if Pricey carried on playing with a broken jaw but yep Buck for me playing with a ripped scrotum ouuuuuuccccccchhhhhhhhhhhh

Heard that one about Shelford alright,have to say it brings to mind the saying that there's a very thin line between bravery and stupidity.I really can't decide just which side of the line he is on.

If you're thinking Arthur Harrison and proper "life or death" bravery, you should really be thinking Paddy Mayne.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy_Mayne

Although "mental" is probably more accurate than "brave". Absolutely had a screw loose.

Don't like these articles - just filling column inches for the sake of it. Journo should find a good rugby story or not bother.

`
Whats not good about players showing committment and attitude?

aucklandlaurie wrote:`
Whats not good about players showing committment and attitude?

I just find it dull and subjective, a bit like the "worlds greatest players" stuff.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Heard that one about Shelford alright,have to say it brings to mind the saying that there's a very thin line between bravery and stupidity.I really can't decide just which side of the line he is on.

Why don't you ask him, then come back to us and let us know what you both decided.

Do you have his number?

Don Alfonso wrote:If you're thinking Arthur Harrison and proper "life or death" bravery, you should really be thinking Paddy Mayne.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy_Mayne

Although "mental" is probably more accurate than "brave". Absolutely had a screw loose.

Thank you. That's the sort of thing I was thinking of. While bravery on the ptich is one thing, Mayne and Harrison put it into perspective and it's disappointing that they weren't even mentioned, given that the Telegraph explicitly referenced bravery on and off the pitch. I'd also chuck Cheeky Watson into the mix.

Don Alfonso wrote:If you're thinking Arthur Harrison and proper "life or death" bravery, you should really be thinking Paddy Mayne.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy_Mayne

Although "mental" is probably more accurate than "brave". Absolutely had a screw loose.

Amazing stuff. Reminds me a little of the stories about Mad Jack Churchill. (Not a rugby player as far as I know - but was an olympic standard archer....)

Don Alfonso wrote:If you're thinking Arthur Harrison and proper "life or death" bravery, you should really be thinking Paddy Mayne.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy_Mayne

Although "mental" is probably more accurate than "brave". Absolutely had a screw loose.

Amazing stuff. He was a very impressive character to read about.

The things that went on during that '39 lions tour would make for an interesting dvd!

Not an international (played for Cardiff an Glamorgan Wanderers) but gave great service to the WRU

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasker_Watkins

Graham Henry pinned his citation on the dressing room wall

On 16 August 1944 at Barfour, Normandy, France, Lieutenant Watkins' company came under murderous machine-gun fire while advancing through corn fields set with booby traps. The only officer left, Lieutenant Watkins led a bayonet charge with his 30 remaining men against 50 enemy infantry, practically wiping them out. Finally, at dusk, separated from the rest of the battalion, he ordered his men to scatter and after he had personally charged and silenced an enemy machine-gun post, he brought them back to safety. His superb leadership not only saved his men, but decisively influenced the course of the battle.

I very much agree with Lewis Moody. He was incredibly brave.

From Ireland I would include Geoghegan and Stringer. Both players would tackle anyone both took down Lomu.

Thomas Gisborne Gordan played for Ireland with only one arm.

George North once stamped on Leo Cullen's testicles and ripped them so bad he could see his insides. Cullen had them stitched together on the side of the pitch then when back on.

For Scotland I'd say Gary Armstrong in my time. Hard as nails and used to throw himself at everything around the ruck. Cracking cover tackler as well.

Never thought of Shane Williams as a particularly brave "body on the line" sort of player. Not a shirker but an odd choice nonetheless.

Serge Betsen, Richie McCaw, Lewis Moody, Schalk Burger... all would throw themselves into tackles without a drop of intensity regardless of whether they were going to get smashed into next week or not.

Mike Catt has to get an honourable mention. In that first try in the 95 semi he was stationary and had lomu at full pelt run straight into him. What went through his mind for those 3 seconds I don't know.. probably lost about 10 years worth of memory too on impact, got smashed sure, left for dead but he didn't shirk and to be fair only one of them has a world cup winners medal.

Scrumhalves generally have to have a lot of steel to play the game given they (traditionally) are the smallest guys on the field. Think Stringer, Robert Jones, Richard Hill, George Gregan. Them and hookers such as Brian Moore... even in those days he was on the small side.

John Jeffries seemed pretty tough to me.

fa0019 wrote:Serge Betsen, Richie McCaw, Lewis Moody, Schalk Burger... all would throw themselves into tackles without a drop of intensity regardless of whether they were going to get smashed into next week or not.

Mike Catt has to get an honourable mention. In that first try in the 95 semi he was stationary and had lomu at full pelt run straight into him. What went through his mind for those 3 seconds I don't know.. probably lost about 10 years worth of memory too on impact, got smashed sure, left for dead but he didn't shirk and to be fair only one of them has a world cup winners medal.

Scrumhalves generally have to have a lot of steel to play the game given they (traditionally) are the smallest guys on the field. Think Stringer, Robert Jones, Richard Hill, George Gregan. Them and hookers such as Brian Moore... even in those days he was on the small side.

No Mike Catt doesnt deserve a mention for that at all. He got absolutely steamrolled. Tough guys like Joost, Stringer and Geoghegan took Lomu down.

The worst part about Catt's attempted tackle was he totally bottled it. Lomu had just been tackled by one of the Underwoods and was stumpling forward and off balance. Catt failing to take his opportunity stood off Lomu and waited for him to regain his balance and basically allowed Lomu steamroll him. It was terrible from Catt.

That guy in the OP mind...wow what a guy.

Joe Worsley had his sack sewn up and back on the pitch as well remember. Not just Buck has that claim to fame.

Also , Who was the Zimbabwe (Rhodesian) player, from the 60's or something who fought with a lion and killed it.

Now THATS pretty brave aswell.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Serge Betsen, Richie McCaw, Lewis Moody, Schalk Burger... all would throw themselves into tackles without a drop of intensity regardless of whether they were going to get smashed into next week or not.

Mike Catt has to get an honourable mention. In that first try in the 95 semi he was stationary and had lomu at full pelt run straight into him. What went through his mind for those 3 seconds I don't know.. probably lost about 10 years worth of memory too on impact, got smashed sure, left for dead but he didn't shirk and to be fair only one of them has a world cup winners medal.

Scrumhalves generally have to have a lot of steel to play the game given they (traditionally) are the smallest guys on the field. Think Stringer, Robert Jones, Richard Hill, George Gregan. Them and hookers such as Brian Moore... even in those days he was on the small side.

No Mike Catt doesnt deserve a mention for that at all. He got absolutely steamrolled. Tough guys like Joost, Stringer and Geoghegan took Lomu down.

The worst part about Catt's attempted tackle was he totally bottled it. Lomu had just been tackled by one of the Underwoods and was stumpling forward and off balance. Catt failing to take his opportunity stood off Lomu and waited for him to regain his balance and basically allowed Lomu steamroll him. It was terrible from Catt.

There is a big difference from tackling lomu from behind and taking him full force.

Stringer tap tackled him, Joost took him from behind when Rueben Kruger was on his side and Geoghegan took his ankles again from behind. Its a bit different.

Bravery in the tackle doesn't necessarily mean you have to complete the tackle. No one in world rugby would stop lomu from that distance, no one then, no one now. All you can ask of any player in that situation is to stand up, he did so. To me that was bravery more so than the other 3 examples.

If its solely on tackling...then Johnny W is as brave as they come.

GeordieFalcon wrote:If its solely on tackling...then Johnny W is as brave as they come.

/insane

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Serge Betsen, Richie McCaw, Lewis Moody, Schalk Burger... all would throw themselves into tackles without a drop of intensity regardless of whether they were going to get smashed into next week or not.

Mike Catt has to get an honourable mention. In that first try in the 95 semi he was stationary and had lomu at full pelt run straight into him. What went through his mind for those 3 seconds I don't know.. probably lost about 10 years worth of memory too on impact, got smashed sure, left for dead but he didn't shirk and to be fair only one of them has a world cup winners medal.

Scrumhalves generally have to have a lot of steel to play the game given they (traditionally) are the smallest guys on the field. Think Stringer, Robert Jones, Richard Hill, George Gregan. Them and hookers such as Brian Moore... even in those days he was on the small side.

No Mike Catt doesnt deserve a mention for that at all. He got absolutely steamrolled. Tough guys like Joost, Stringer and Geoghegan took Lomu down.

The worst part about Catt's attempted tackle was he totally bottled it. Lomu had just been tackled by one of the Underwoods and was stumpling forward and off balance. Catt failing to take his opportunity stood off Lomu and waited for him to regain his balance and basically allowed Lomu steamroll him. It was terrible from Catt.

There is a big difference from tackling lomu from behind and taking him full force.

Stringer tap tackled him, Joost took him from behind when Rueben Kruger was on his side and Geoghegan took his ankles again from behind. Its a bit different.

Bravery in the tackle doesn't necessarily mean you have to complete the tackle. No one in world rugby would stop lomu from that distance, no one then, no one now. All you can ask of any player in that situation is to stand up, he did so. To me that was bravery more so than the other 3 examples.

Catt had the chance to tackle him as he was stumbling forward completely off balance but he bottled it. Making at tackle on Lomu is brave however, Catt was very tentative in his tackle approach and as a result was a sitting duck. A braver tackler like Joost or Geoghegan would have literally thown themselves in front of Lomu. Catt showed his nerves by standing off Lomu and letting Lomu come to him.

GeordieFalcon wrote:That guy in the OP mind...wow what a guy.

Joe Worsley had his sack sewn up and back on the pitch as well remember. Not just Buck has that claim to fame.

Also , Who was the Zimbabwe (Rhodesian) player, from the 60's or something who fought with a lion and killed it.

Now THATS pretty brave aswell.

http://rhodesiansportprofiles.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/ronald-andy-macdonald.html

Not quite killed with his bare hands, but still astonishing.

That's the one. Not quite the story I remember or was told, but still a tough guy.

Meads described Macdonald thus: "The Springbok, Andy Macdonald, was probably the most imposing physical specimen we have lined up against, a very good player and one of the great gentlemen of rugby"

When Pinetree describes you as that....your a tough cookie!

funnyExiledScot wrote:For Scotland I'd say Gary Armstrong in my time. Hard as nails and used to throw himself at everything around the ruck. Cracking cover tackler as well.

Never thought of Shane Williams as a particularly brave "body on the line" sort of player. Not a shirker but an odd choice nonetheless.

I think it was based on his commitment over size attitude. Never backed down although often being the smallest on the pitch.

GeordieFalcon wrote:If its solely on tackling...then Johnny W is as brave as they come.

Ridiculous to think he used to be targeted for being weak in defence.

If we are talking about bodies on the line I can only mention 3 performances, I have seen, where a player tackled themselves into the ground and some.

One was Worsley for England - cant remember the game
The other two were in an Ulster shirt
One, by a forgotten player, Matt McCulough against Quins in Europe - howling gail, rain the lot and Ulster spend the second half in their 22 defending a narrow lead - he hit everything that moved.
The other was Stephen Ferris when Ulster won a European Quarter Final in Thomond Park. POC has gone on record as saying it was the greatest tackling performance he has ever seen

Paddy Mayne was from these parts - he was most definitely certifiable.
To me true bravery is a sane person going above and beyond not a nutcase.
He was a nutcase

I think guys like a 6'5, 18st flankers being seen as brave is a little on the "lets take that with a pinch of salt" category.

I used to play junior rugby with a chap who was if anything a bit of a wimp. He was a centre, talented ball in hand but he was not brave, often afraid and regardless of tackling technique he often wimped out.  Average size up to 17 then he literally grew 6 inches over a summer and was suddenly 6'4. Got himself a weights coach and all of a sudden would put in big tackles.
In the same team however was our hooker who would literally take on anyone regardless of size and was generally solid and often very effective. Got England junior colours that guy.