The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

First topic message reminder :

I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them. 

So, the Pro12, how could it move forward, for me there are one or two bones of contention for me, and that is the refereeing situation we find ourselves in, and the two Italian sides, firstly I will speak about the Italian sides, they have been here for a few years now and they are getting worse, now whether that is because of the fall out with the CC or not, the simple fact is they are not adding much to the league other than a banker five points when they travel and the odd banana skin when teams travel to play them. I would not like to see the Italians cut adrift, but at the same time they seriously need to up their game, at the moment they look as if they do not want to be here and are just waiting for the season to end, recent results have reflected this. I also think, that at the moment a place in the top tier of Europe is a waste for them, they will never win that competition with the state they are in at the moment and I think it would be far more beneficial for them to play in the second tier where they would have a better chance of picking up results and giving them more confidence. Jonathan Davies was pretty scathing about them on Scrum V on Sunday night:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36068740

Now I do not agree with him when it comes to ditching the Italians, but he does make a good point. Something needs to be seriously looked at when we are considering the two Italian teams, what would you suggest ?

Secondly I will talk about our refereeing situation, I am very uncomfortable with the status quo we find ourselves in at the moment when it comes to the referees, I am not comfortable that we are in a situation where the unions employ the referees AND the players. This leads to calls of potential bias, and the union controlled teams bringing their own refs with them, I think the referees should be employed by a central organisation, not the unions, and I think that the central organisation should be the league itself, the money the unions pay the refs should be payed to the league and then the league should have direct control over the referees. The league should then have a remit of how the refs should perform, and all the refs should be singing from the same hymn sheet, not that of their respective unions. Only when something like this happens will we see an improvement.

I would also like to talk about an article I read on WOL that Jeremy Guscott scratched upon, and states that we should be improving our brand of rugby to be able to compete with the French and English, also he has pointed out that because our CC players are restricted to the amount of games they can play, they hamper the teams involved, this I agree with, and I would rather we rested our players for Europe and played them more in the league. Guscott says that because there is no relegation from the Pro12 then there should be no excuses for us not playing a better brand of rugby. Anyway here's the link if anyone is interested:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-legend-tells-welsh-regions-11202285

Do you agree with Jeremy Guscott ?

mikey_dragon wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

international198 wrote:

Kingshu wrote:international198, would I be correct in guessing your a Ponty fan and want to see them in the Pro 12?

I can't see how removing Munster and replacing them with Clontarf would help Irish rugby?
Replacing Ospreys with Bridgend would be the same.

The regions should be seen as above clubs, and therefore make it like comparing Apples and Oranges however with the way it was set up 13 years later disenfranasement still rears its ugly head, and fans of the clubs left behind do not see a region as representing their area.

Since it should be Apples and Oranges, I can't see relegation ever coming up, you can't replace an Apple with an orange, likewise you can't replace a Province with a club, and shouldn't be able to replace a region with a Club.

No, I'm not a Ponty fan.

It would make Irish rugby more competitive, IMO.

Remember, this is to be decided by a play-off not by automatic promotion/relegation.

The same way Six Nations promotion/relegation would be decided by a play-off.

You know much about Irish rugby do you?

Thought I'd heard some stupid ideas before but maybe trumps the lot, completely illogical and completely lacking in any thought and understanding of the actual impact and seems just to be along the lines of people want change heres one way to change things

Given his Wales selection thread it's abundantly clear he doesn't know much about Welsh rugby, let alone Irish Rugby. I'm beginning to question his Welsh credentials if I'm honest.

Fixed

I think he adds great comedy value to the forum

international198 wrote:Relegation - top Welsh club in Welsh Premiership to replace bottom Welsh club in Pro12.  

Blinking heck mun. I'm sure semi pro players can step straight in. You seem a bit of a wum sorry.

Pete330v2 wrote:I think he adds great comedy value to the forum

The old international used to add lots of lists too.

RiscaGame wrote:

international198 wrote:Relegation - top Welsh club in Welsh Premiership to replace bottom Welsh club in Pro12.  

Blinking heck mun. I'm sure semi pro players can step straight in. You seem a bit of a wum sorry.

You're giving it too much thought. It's a great idea, as long as you don't give it too much thought.

Could all wums here stand in a queue please and we'll sort this out proper quick. The new wum will be the one looking nervous and whistling.... the olde boys will be having a sandwich and playing cards.

Kingshu wrote:

TJ wrote:I am not totally agaainst  wooden spoon V best of the minnows playoff.  If Scotland or Italy can't beat Romania or Georgia then you could make a case they don't deserve to be there

I'm not its not inconceivable that Ireland, Scotland Wales finished bottom that Georgia could beat them in a play off
Imagine what that would do to their finances, they Provinces, Districts or regions, would go bust.
Even if it was a possibility the Unions would have to plan ahead incase of relegation which would mean less money as this is put aside to save incase of relegation.
Hugh effect of the Pro 12.
No Union would ever vote for it.
Also if Georgia were promoted how would this help Romania or Spain, they may only get a slice of the pie one year every decade.

However I do think the 3rd autumn international most teams play should be removed, and in the 6 Nations a Barbarians team entered, the Barbarians team is controlled by the best tier 2 Nations, and the money it generates split between them. OK so it would be spilt multi ways but its guaranteed income every year.
Best players from Georgia, Romania, even fiji somia etc and all these tier 2 Unions get a share of the 7 nations revenue, move games around Europe to make a bigger Market.
Babaa's v England in Germany, then Babaa's V Wales in Spain/Russia/Georgia/Belgium as each would be a one off event it could be very marketable

I do not think Wales would suffer that much financially if would drop down, not if the tele money is in the same ball park. The thing is, the Welsh public would still rock up in their thousands, even if the stadium was in Timbuctu and we were playing Outer Mongolia, we would get 50,000 Welsh men and women with daffodil hats and red rugby tops, and inflatable leeks.

LordDowlais wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

TJ wrote:I am not totally agaainst  wooden spoon V best of the minnows playoff.  If Scotland or Italy can't beat Romania or Georgia then you could make a case they don't deserve to be there

I'm not its not inconceivable that Ireland, Scotland Wales finished bottom that Georgia could beat them in a play off
Imagine what that would do to their finances, they Provinces, Districts or regions, would go bust.
Even if it was a possibility the Unions would have to plan ahead incase of relegation which would mean less money as this is put aside to save incase of relegation.
Hugh effect of the Pro 12.
No Union would ever vote for it.
Also if Georgia were promoted how would this help Romania or Spain, they may only get a slice of the pie one year every decade.

However I do think the 3rd autumn international most teams play should be removed, and in the 6 Nations a Barbarians team entered, the Barbarians team is controlled by the best tier 2 Nations, and the money it generates split between them. OK so it would be spilt multi ways but its guaranteed income every year.
Best players from Georgia, Romania, even fiji somia etc and all these tier 2 Unions get a share of the 7 nations revenue, move games around Europe to make a bigger Market.
Babaa's v England in Germany, then Babaa's V Wales in Spain/Russia/Georgia/Belgium as each would be a one off event it could be very marketable

I do not think Wales would suffer that much financially if would drop down, not if the tele money is in the same ball park. The thing is, the Welsh public would still rock up in their thousands, even if the stadium was in Timbuctu and we were playing Outer Mongolia, we would get 50,000 Welsh men and women with daffodil hats and red rugby tops, and inflatable leeks.

Its not just tv though, its prize money made up from sponsors, tv etc. Anyone playing below the 6Ns would receive less prize money than the 6Ns teams that'd be a big drop in the WRUs income

LordDowlais wrote:


I do not think Wales would suffer that much financially if would drop down, not if the tele money is in the same ball park. The thing is, the Welsh public would still rock up in their thousands, even if the stadium was in Timbuctu and we were playing Outer Mongolia, we would get 50,000 Welsh men and women with daffodil hats and red rugby tops, and inflatable leeks.

??? Couldn't even entice them over on a ferry to watch their sides play Leinster . Second grade league is second grade league.... it seems the Welsh have a keen nose for avoiding what they see as second grade schmaltz.

I'd simply have it that the prize for winning the ENC is the same as bottom of the 6N. That way there would be no drop off in money unless they were very bad. Granted the argument would be on parachute payments making it unfair on the other ENC teams. It would also mean that everyone would have to take a cut to fund the ENC effectively.

marty2086 wrote:

Its not just tv though, its prize money made up from sponsors, tv etc. Anyone playing below the 6Ns would receive less prize money than the 6Ns teams that'd be a big drop in the WRUs income

Nah, Nah! You're a Glass Hall Empty man, marty! If the TV deal is sound and all sides get a fair share, then that fine by some folks here. The players, the coaches, the fans, the jerseys, they'll all be happy enough going down a peg or two so long as the finances are right and the books are balancing up to employ the best amateur players on the market.

It was the same argument doing the rounds during the European rugby debate.... it didn't matter that no Champions Cup might be the result, the TV money would soothe all ills and allow teams to keep chugging along.

Ive been accused of worse

SecretFly wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Its not just tv though, its prize money made up from sponsors, tv etc. Anyone playing below the 6Ns would receive less prize money than the 6Ns teams that'd be a big drop in the WRUs income

Nah, Nah!  You're a Glass Hall Empty man, marty!  If the TV deal is sound and all sides get a fair share, then that fine by some folks here.  The players, the coaches, the fans, the jerseys, they'll all be happy enough going down a peg or two so long as the finances are right and the books are balancing up to employ the best amateur players on the market.

It was the same argument doing the rounds during the European rugby debate.... it didn't matter that no Champions Cup might be the result, the TV money would soothe all ills and allow teams to keep chugging along.

You going all Joycean again, fly?

A Glass Hall Empty Man. 

Mind you, Kerouac and the boys could have encountered him on the road.

What's wrong with an extra 'L' in this world, dude?  You is a cat that should chill, baby.  The world is a beautiful pace as ong as you reax and actuay ook at it.

Agreed. Everyone take a chi pi.

SecretFly wrote:What's wrong with an extra 'L' in this world, dude?  You is a cat that should chill, baby.  The world is a beautiful pace as ong as you reax and actuay ook at it.

I have no worries about an extra 'L'; it was the missing 'F' I was worried about.

I prefer the letter L. I'm entitled to have a prelerence. I know my writes!

SecretFly wrote:I prefer the letter L.  I'm entitled to have a prelerence.  I know my writes!

I think you should read Thurber's The Wonderful O - you could have a lot more fun.

Good news on the Pro 12 final

http://www.scottishrugby.org/news/16/04/28/bt-murrayfield-set-record-breaking-guinness-pro12-final

Over 26,000 tickets sold with more to come once the finalists are known.

If Glasgow made the final I'd like to think we could double that number!

That is good news. Murrayfield would definitely need double that number to save from feeling like a ghost town.

As much as I'd love to see Connacht make the final, Glasgow v Ulster / Leinster would draw the biggest crowd!

RDW_Scotland wrote:As much as I'd love to see Connacht make the final, Glasgow v Ulster / Leinster would draw the biggest crowd!

Ulster v Leinster would be good too. 

I think Connacht might draw in a few neutral supporters.

Conor O'Shea had his first interview today after taking over Italy. Main thing that came out of it is he isn't very impressed with the fitness of Italian players. Also he wants to improve their mentality. I presume that means stop waving the white flag when they go behone.


Improving fitness and mentality should really help Treviso and Zebre become more competitive. Hopfully it helps put an end to so many of their blow outs.

Glasgow trained with Treviso a few weeks ago and were shocked to discover they only had one part time S&C coach - Glasgow have 3 full time, plus assistants!

That all costs money though - I'm sure the Italian clubs would have more coaches if they could afford it.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Glasgow trained with Treviso a few weeks ago and were shocked to discover they only had one part time S&C coach - Glasgow have 3 full time, plus assistants!

That all costs money though - I'm sure the Italian clubs would have more coaches if they could afford it.

Given that the national team and franchises have all suffered from a lack of conditioning, you think someone somewhere would see the problem and address it. Whether it be cutting a few contracts across the two teams or even the FIR investing in a team to work across the game in the country to work on the area

Perhaps if the Italians relied less on players who are not, erm, Italian and produced their own, then perhaps they could afford more coaches.

LD, you are automatically assuming that the players are more expensive.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Glasgow trained with Treviso a few weeks ago and were shocked to discover they only had one part time S&C coach - Glasgow have 3 full time, plus assistants!

That all costs money though - I'm sure the Italian clubs would have more coaches if they could afford it.

Zebre have a €6m budget.

They can afford it if they want to.

On the tv front, read an interesting piece on the importance of live tv to broadcasters and marketers these days though it does relate to US tv I can't imagine its much different in the uk

The move reflects a growing desire by TV networks to find more ways to air content that needs to be seen as it airs, rather than days or weeks later via a DVR or video on demand. Networks like NBC and Fox have turned live broadcasts of favorite Broadway plays into high-rated events, and many broadcast and cable outlets have placed more emphasis on securing rights to top sports events like the Olympics or the NCAA men’s basketball championships.

Viewers who tune in to these live “spectaculars” can’t zap the commercials that support the programs, and marketers seem willing to pay a premium to appear in such stuff. Last season, NBC even ran a live, weekly program in which Neil Patrick Harris attempted zany stunts, did musical numbers and clowned around with celebrity guests.

Hopefully something which will add value to the Pro 12 and its tv deal going forward

marty2086 wrote:LD, you are automatically assuming that the players are more expensive.

I am not saying one player/one coach. The Italians are mad for it. They have loads of players waiting to play for Italy, who are not Italian, they have only gone to italy for one thing £££££££££££'s.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:LD, you are automatically assuming that the players are more expensive.

I am not saying one player/one coach. The Italians are mad for it. They have loads of players waiting to play for Italy, who are not Italian, they have only gone to italy for one thing £££££££££££'s.

That's just an assumption, while they may have gone for money it doesn't mean they are more expensive than an Italian counterpart or even that that is why they don't have a proper S&C setup

The Italian teams have a large enough budget and a modern professional team without one is actually behind plenty of amateur teams.

In fact GAA teams here in Ireland have S&C coaches and they are amateurs, the Antrim GAA have former Super Middleweight champion, Brian Magee as theirs

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/gaelic-games/34614200

PhilBB wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Glasgow trained with Treviso a few weeks ago and were shocked to discover they only had one part time S&C coach - Glasgow have 3 full time, plus assistants!

That all costs money though - I'm sure the Italian clubs would have more coaches if they could afford it.

Zebre have a €6m budget.

They can afford it if they want to.

Where is this number from? Is that €6m for the entire club or is that players and staff? If it is for the entire budget that is roughly 1/5 of Toulouse and probably near the Dragons overall expenditure. If it is a players and staff budget, that would probably put them not far off the mean of the AP and Pro 12 clubs.

I think Glasgow (Townsend in a fan forum) were saying £5m (€6.7m) on playing staff alone according to posters on 606v2 as a comparison.

Hazel Sapling wrote:

Where is this number from? Is that €6m for the entire club or is that players and staff? If it is for the entire budget that is roughly 1/5 of Toulouse and probably near the Dragons overall expenditure. If it is a players and staff budget, that would probably put them not far off the mean of the AP and Pro 12 clubs.

I think Glasgow (Townsend in a fan forum) were saying £5m (€6.7m) on playing staff alone according to posters on 606v2 as a comparison.

Total NGD spend in accounts to June 2015 was £4.8m on wages, for 245 members of staff. 101 of which are players and coaches.

Glasgow clearly spend way more than £5m on wages. You don't have a squad of 35 internationals with an average wage just north of £100,000.

The comparison with Toulouse is not relevant as Toulouse's budget includes far more than just the rugby operation.

The link to the €6m budget is on page 5 of this download http://www.federugby.it/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=3824&Itemid=988&lang= and was mentioned a lot when Zebre was sold off to private investors. I think that the Italian Union pay in over €4m a year to the team so its budget for playing must be the €6m.

I don't think Zebre was sold off to private investors. The reason it was set up (not too long ago) was so that the FIR could have complete control of it.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:LD, you are automatically assuming that the players are more expensive.

I am not saying one player/one coach. The Italians are mad for it. They have loads of players waiting to play for Italy, who are not Italian, they have only gone to italy for one thing £££££££££££'s.

From what I understand, the FIR are investing fairly heavily in academies (about 15 or so) dispersed around Italy and are intent on developing home grown players. One of the reasons I think they set up Zebre and based it in Parma (where their main academy is) is to facilitatate their development.

Treviso maybe a different story as they are owned by the Benetton family.

Sin é wrote:I don't think Zebre was sold off to private investors. The reason it was set up (not too long ago) was so that the FIR could have complete control of it.

Another finger on the pulse.

http://www.pro12rugby.com/news/17815.php#AcVsoGP3WPi3PuMi.97

Phil providing a link to back up what hes saying

Hey look a flying pig

Pigs may indeed fly but we're no closer to working out how the Pro12 should move forward.

Maybe one of the things that might help us all move forward is if WalesOnline (bastion of mad-about-rugby Welshmen) would actually say something about it.

I did a little experiment last week.... not a drop about Pro12 semis could I find.  Not a drop this week about the final.   Maybe it's there somewhere - but if it is I can't find it in the jungle.

SecretFly wrote:Pigs may indeed fly but we're no closer to working out how the Pro12 should move forward.

Maybe one of the things that might help us all move forward is if WalesOnline (bastion of mad-about-rugby Welshmen) would actually say something about it.

I did a little experiment last week.... not a drop about Pro12 semis could I find.  Not a drop this week about the final.   Maybe it's there somewhere - but if it is I can't find it in the jungle.

It doesn't generate clicks for them because few in Wales are interested in the PrO'12. More interested is generated by Bristol v Doncaster.

Our rugby interested is Eastwards, not Westwards or Northwards.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:I don't think Zebre was sold off to private investors. The reason it was set up (not too long ago) was so that the FIR could have complete control of it.

Another finger on the pulse.

http://www.pro12rugby.com/news/17815.php#AcVsoGP3WPi3PuMi.97

That sounds like they are regionalising it to operate similarly to the way the Irish Provinces operate.

There you go. I know that already, Phil. It's why the argument is moot.

The AngloWelsh League..... it's the only answer. Joined at the hip in all but contract to prove it.

I keep saying that's the threads for you, Phil. And if they don't exist - create them. Look forward to a good few of them next season.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Pigs may indeed fly but we're no closer to working out how the Pro12 should move forward.

Maybe one of the things that might help us all move forward is if WalesOnline (bastion of mad-about-rugby Welshmen) would actually say something about it.

I did a little experiment last week.... not a drop about Pro12 semis could I find.  Not a drop this week about the final.   Maybe it's there somewhere - but if it is I can't find it in the jungle.

It doesn't generate clicks for them because few in Wales are interested in the PrO'12. More interested is generated by Bristol v Doncaster.

Our rugby interested is Eastwards, not Westwards or Northwards.

The interest is probably more down to the fact that there are a couple of Welsh players there (and a potential superstar)!

I was only interested in it because there are a couple of Irish lads playing for Doncaster and Bristol.

Sin é wrote:

That sounds like they are regionalising it to operate similarly to the way the Irish Provinces operate.

With private owners.

Sin é wrote:

The interest is probably more down to the fact that there are a couple of Welsh players there (and a potential superstar)!

I was only interested in it because there are a couple of Irish lads playing for Doncaster and Bristol.

Erm, the interest in Bristol wouldn't diminish the interest in the PrO'12 if there was any.

But there is very, very little interest in the PrO'12.

Except you, Phil.... you're still here.

All the other Welsh boys have better things to do

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

That sounds like they are regionalising it to operate similarly to the way the Irish Provinces operate.

With private owners.

One hundred private investors

11 directors.

Italian Rugby Union will remain Zebre's first sponsor


Sounds like the Munster/Leinster/Ulster Branch of the IRFU to me

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The interest is probably more down to the fact that there are a couple of Welsh players there (and a potential superstar)!

I was only interested in it because there are a couple of Irish lads playing for Doncaster and Bristol.

Erm, the interest in Bristol wouldn't diminish the interest in the PrO'12 if there was any.

But there is very, very little interest in the PrO'12.

We know. The Welsh fans & regions did a fine job killing off any possible interest in it.

The future doesn't look good for the Welsh Regions if they don't come up with something fast. With very little European rugby its going to be very hard keeping any of your ambitious players in Wales.

SecretFly wrote:Pigs may indeed fly but we're no closer to working out how the Pro12 should move forward.

Maybe one of the things that might help us all move forward is if WalesOnline (bastion of mad-about-rugby Welshmen) would actually say something about it.

I did a little experiment last week.... not a drop about Pro12 semis could I find.  Not a drop this week about the final.   Maybe it's there somewhere - but if it is I can't find it in the jungle.

It seems you are correct. Even worse, they put up so many pointless articles trying to fill space and yet ignore their own league.

PhilBB wrote:
But there is very, very little interest in the PrO'12.

Its more like a boy who says he doesn't like a girl but keeps pulling her hair and annoying her. The interest is most definitely there otherwise why are you and many others spending countless hours whinging about it?


Welsh TV paid the most money (apart from sky) for the pro 12 TV rights, as you keep reminding us.

profitius wrote:Its more like a boy who says he doesn't like a girl but keeps pulling her hair and annoying her. The interest is most definitely there otherwise why are you and many others spending countless hours whinging about it?

Phil does not speak for ALL us Welsh on here. I like the Pro12, but I think it needs sorting. I would start with the refs.

Sin é wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

That sounds like they are regionalising it to operate similarly to the way the Irish Provinces operate.

With private owners.

One hundred private investors

11 directors.

Italian Rugby Union will remain Zebre's first sponsor  


Sounds like the Munster/Leinster/Ulster Branch of the IRFU to me

They sold 96% to private backers.

How the hell is that like the branches of the IRFU?