The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

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The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 9:35 am

First topic message reminder :

I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them. 

So, the Pro12, how could it move forward, for me there are one or two bones of contention for me, and that is the refereeing situation we find ourselves in, and the two Italian sides, firstly I will speak about the Italian sides, they have been here for a few years now and they are getting worse, now whether that is because of the fall out with the CC or not, the simple fact is they are not adding much to the league other than a banker five points when they travel and the odd banana skin when teams travel to play them. I would not like to see the Italians cut adrift, but at the same time they seriously need to up their game, at the moment they look as if they do not want to be here and are just waiting for the season to end, recent results have reflected this. I also think, that at the moment a place in the top tier of Europe is a waste for them, they will never win that competition with the state they are in at the moment and I think it would be far more beneficial for them to play in the second tier where they would have a better chance of picking up results and giving them more confidence. Jonathan Davies was pretty scathing about them on Scrum V on Sunday night:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36068740

Now I do not agree with him when it comes to ditching the Italians, but he does make a good point. Something needs to be seriously looked at when we are considering the two Italian teams, what would you suggest ?

Secondly I will talk about our refereeing situation, I am very uncomfortable with the status quo we find ourselves in at the moment when it comes to the referees, I am not comfortable that we are in a situation where the unions employ the referees AND the players. This leads to calls of potential bias, and the union controlled teams bringing their own refs with them, I think the referees should be employed by a central organisation, not the unions, and I think that the central organisation should be the league itself, the money the unions pay the refs should be payed to the league and then the league should have direct control over the referees. The league should then have a remit of how the refs should perform, and all the refs should be singing from the same hymn sheet, not that of their respective unions. Only when something like this happens will we see an improvement.

I would also like to talk about an article I read on WOL that Jeremy Guscott scratched upon, and states that we should be improving our brand of rugby to be able to compete with the French and English, also he has pointed out that because our CC players are restricted to the amount of games they can play, they hamper the teams involved, this I agree with, and I would rather we rested our players for Europe and played them more in the league. Guscott says that because there is no relegation from the Pro12 then there should be no excuses for us not playing a better brand of rugby. Anyway here's the link if anyone is interested:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-legend-tells-welsh-regions-11202285

Do you agree with Jeremy Guscott ?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:34 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I thought that the payment of the DC in Wales was a way of the WRU paying for the use of the players that the regions have spent and invested a lot of time and money into getting them up to the standards needed for international rugby. Are we saying the WRU should get these players for nowt, and the regions keep paying their wages when they are with team Wales ?

The DC are a sort of way of renting the players from their regions, by doing this the WRU can get access to them when they feel the need to. They are not employed by the WRU.

WTF?

The NDC doesn't provide the WRU with any mechanism to get the holder 'up to the standards needed for international rugby'.

You're absolutely bloody clueless. The Annual Report from the WRU shows that the players with NDCs are primarily employed by the WRU. It's in writing, you bloody fool.

The rest of the players in Team Wales are rented by the WRU. That's what they pay money for.

You really have just shown that you have no idea as to how any of this works.


Oh so I am a fool am I ? How the feck can an organisation employ 60% of one person ? 


You are the fool who lives in a fantasy land where you make your own facts up and think nothing exists outside of your Cardiff utopia.

By paying 60% of their wages?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Munchkin on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:34 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
I was telling you that you were talking BS, that's all. Getting carried away with another of your conspiracy theories, which are usually very thin on substance, and often devoid of fact.

And I'm asking you to justify your position on calling that as BS. I wrote about conversations in Welsh rugby circles. You called that as BS.

On what grounds? Do tell.

I don't have to justify it. You make a claim, a positive claim, and present it as evidence, in a debate.... So, you are actually saying "this is my evidence, but you can't see it because you don't live here".... See the problem? No? Very Happy

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:35 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
No he's not barred hence why he was appointed in the first place, after just calling someone a fool and clueless you think you'd be more on top of your facts

Friend was barred from reffing Tottenham's game. He is barred from reffing Leicester games.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36075347

Now you look as stupid as you did when you couldn't add 17+7. When will you stop putting yourself in this position? Just learn that you're out of your depth when you take me on.

Only problem with the argument is that he is Bristol City fan as already stated earlier

He lives in Leicester

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:36 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Oh so I am a fool am I ? How the feck can an organisation employ 60% of one person ? 

You are the fool who lives in a fantasy land where you make your own facts up and think nothing exists outside of your Cardiff utopia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/29305689

RRW added: "The dual contract involves the WRU having primacy of contract with the national dual contracted player, but entering into a joint player agreement with the region which confirms the contribution of the player to both the region and the national side according to agreed structures.

"The total cost of the player is then split on a 60:40 basis between WRU and region, which broadly reflects the amount of time an international player is generally available to each party in a given season."

Yes, you are a fool.
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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:37 pm

marty2086 wrote:

Only problem with the argument is that he is Bristol City fan as already stated earlier

He lives in Leicester

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/14/leicester-fan-kevin-friend-refereeing-stoke-tottenham

You've just doubled up the stupidity. This is awesome.
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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:39 pm

Munchkin wrote:
I don't have to justify it. You make a claim, a positive claim, and present it as evidence, in a debate.... So, you are actually saying "this is my evidence, but you can't see it because you don't live here".... See the problem? No? Very Happy

You don't have to justify it??!?! Hahahahahahahahha. That's funny.

And, no, I don't see a problem. My comments on Irish rugby are based on what's in the public domain across the world.

In the meanwhile, you keep shouting BS from a position of self confessed pure ignorance. Awesome.
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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:40 pm

LordDowlais wrote:PhillBB ruining another decent debate with his claptrap again. Rolling Eyes

read the links, thicko
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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:41 pm

What is it with the increasing insults on here in general?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:42 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Only problem with the argument is that he is Bristol City fan as already stated earlier

He lives in Leicester

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/14/leicester-fan-kevin-friend-refereeing-stoke-tottenham

You've just doubled up the stupidity. This is awesome.

No actually you and the media have taking the phrase attended in a personal capacity as a sign of support, he is from Bristol and attended 7 of their games this season to 0 at Leicester.


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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by SecretFly on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:43 pm

PhilBB wrote:

Nigel Owens can't referee Wales.

Can you think why?

He'd let Ireland win too often?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:43 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:What is it with the increasing insults on here in general?

Pretty much all Phil, maybe time for a mod to step in and put him in the naughty corner

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Munchkin on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:47 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
I don't have to justify it. You make a claim, a positive claim, and present it as evidence, in a debate.... So, you are actually saying "this is my evidence, but you can't see it because you don't live here".... See the problem? No? Very Happy

You don't have to justify it??!?! Hahahahahahahahha. That's funny.

And, no, I don't see a problem. My comments on Irish rugby are based on what's in the public domain across the world.

In the meanwhile, you keep shouting BS from a position of self confessed pure ignorance. Awesome.

No, why would I have to justify calling a baseless claim BS? How do you not get this? Give me facts, not fiction.


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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:49 pm

marty2086 wrote:By paying 60% of their wages?

You cannot employ 60% of a person. I know, I have about 10 people working for me, they are employed by me to do a job. You can be employed by two separate entities, but you cannot employ part of a person.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:50 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:By paying 60% of their wages?

You cannot employ 60% of a person. I know, I have about 10 people working for me, they are employed by me to do a job. You can be employed by two separate entities, but you cannot employ part of a person.

You are overthinking it

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:52 pm

marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Only problem with the argument is that he is Bristol City fan as already stated earlier

He lives in Leicester

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/14/leicester-fan-kevin-friend-refereeing-stoke-tottenham

You've just doubled up the stupidity. This is awesome.

No actually you and the media have taking the phrase attended in a personal capacity as a sign of support, he is from Bristol and attended 7 of their games this season to 0 at Leicester.


He's a Leicester fan. Fitzgibbon is an IRFU employee. The link is obvious.
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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Munchkin on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:53 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:By paying 60% of their wages?

You cannot employ 60% of a person. I know, I have about 10 people working for me, they are employed by me to do a job. You can be employed by two separate entities, but you cannot employ part of a person.

You employ that person for the 100% you pay his wages, even if that amounts to 60% of a package. Do the Regions then not employ a person when giving 40% of that package?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:53 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:By paying 60% of their wages?

You cannot employ 60% of a person. I know, I have about 10 people working for me, they are employed by me to do a job. You can be employed by two separate entities, but you cannot employ part of a person.

You are overthinking it

No I am not. When the players play for the regions, they are employed by the regions, as the regions are paying them whatever the 40% is to work for them. The WRU pay 60% of whatever they are earning, so when they are with the WRU they do work for them. It's pretty simple, a bit like having two jobs.

You cannot employ a fraction of a person.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:53 pm

Munchkin wrote:
No, why would I have to justify calling a baseless claim BS? How do you not get this? Give me facts, not fiction.

Because you're in no position to judge whether it is baseless or not.
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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:54 pm

marty2086 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:What is it with the increasing insults on here in general?

Pretty much all Phil, maybe time for a mod to step in and put him in the naughty corner

Oh dear. You must be tired of being shown up.
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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Munchkin on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:54 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
No, why would I have to justify calling a baseless claim BS? How do you not get this? Give me facts, not fiction.

Because you're in no position to judge whether it is baseless or not.

If you can't provide facts then it's baseless. Good grief....

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:55 pm

LordDowlais wrote:

No I am not. When the players play for the regions, they are employed by the regions, as the regions are paying them whatever the 40% is to work for them. The WRU pay 60% of whatever they are earning, so when they are with the WRU they do work for them. It's pretty simple, a bit like having two jobs.

You cannot employ a fraction of a person.

You have people working for you? God help them.

Think PRIMACY of contract.
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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:56 pm

Munchkin wrote:
If you can't provide facts then it's baseless. Good grief....

Sorry, but what fact would you like to justify my sentence? A link to Gwlad? Twitter? A rugby club conversation?
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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:58 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:What is it with the increasing insults on here in general?

Pretty much all Phil, maybe time for a mod to step in and put him in the naughty corner

Oh dear. You must be tired of being shown up.

No just think you are quite arrogant and childish, no issue with someone having a debate and challenging points of view but name calling is a little sad and think you are coming across as quite angry and in need of a little anger management

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by SecretFly on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:59 pm

Let's get back to Nigel. I want to start an internet campaign to allow him to ref Welsh games. Who is with me?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 3:59 pm

marty2086 wrote:
No just think you are quite arrogant and childish, no issue with someone having a debate and challenging points of view but name calling is a little sad and think you are coming across as quite angry and in need of a little anger management

Yeah, you're probably right.

But the issue with having a debate means conceding when you've been shown to be wrong. I look forward to that coming from you, martyn.
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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by munkian on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:00 pm

SecretFly wrote:Let's get back to Nigel.  I want to start an internet campaign to allow him to ref Welsh games.  Who is with me?

International games ?
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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by SecretFly on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:00 pm

Gentlemen! Gentlemen! Desist! Desist this instant. This kind of friction would never happen if Pro12 paid ref wages.....

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:01 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:By paying 60% of their wages?

You cannot employ 60% of a person. I know, I have about 10 people working for me, they are employed by me to do a job. You can be employed by two separate entities, but you cannot employ part of a person.

You are overthinking it

No I am not. When the players play for the regions, they are employed by the regions, as the regions are paying them whatever the 40% is to work for them. The WRU pay 60% of whatever they are earning, so when they are with the WRU they do work for them. It's pretty simple, a bit like having two jobs.

You cannot employ a fraction of a person.

Theres a number of ways to do it, I do work for two companies one pays me directly and invoices the other monthly for a rough estimate of the time along with other things. This could be how the WRU work it or the two could pay separately covering their split of the contract

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by SecretFly on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:01 pm

munkian wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Let's get back to Nigel.  I want to start an internet campaign to allow him to ref Welsh games.  Who is with me?

International games ?  

Yes!

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:02 pm

Phill, seriously, do not get into an employment argument with me, I have been in this game for the best part of twenty years, I suggest you go and read what primacy of contract means, not what it sounds like it means. I am not getting into this with you as you are de-railing this topic with your nonsense.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:02 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
No just think you are quite arrogant and childish, no issue with someone having a debate and challenging points of view but name calling is a little sad and think you are coming across as quite angry and in need of a little anger management

Yeah, you're probably right.

But the issue with having a debate means conceding when you've been shown to be wrong. I look forward to that coming from you, martyn.

How was I wrong? Friend is a Bristol City supporter

Unlike some I have acknowledged in the past when Im wrong, instead of name calling or running away

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:04 pm

marty2086 wrote:I do work for two companies one pays me directly and invoices the other monthly for a rough estimate of the time along with other things

Yes I agree, but you are working for two separate entities are you not ? That is having two jobs.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:12 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:I do work for two companies one pays me directly and invoices the other monthly for a rough estimate of the time along with other things

Yes I agree, but you are working for two separate entities are you not ? That is having two jobs.

No its one job

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Munchkin on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:12 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
If you can't provide facts then it's baseless. Good grief....

Sorry, but what fact would you like to justify my sentence? A link to Gwlad? Twitter? A rugby club conversation?

None of the above. Here's your claim: "That's funny as it's pretty widely recognised in Wales as being an issue."

You would need a reliable poll to justify your claim, not 'my mates told me at a pub', or Mr A Moaner on Twitter said it. It just doesn't work like that. It's like the usual cry, which is BS, 'everybody knows'.

Now, back on real evidence, if there was a poll, and the majority of people in Wales did agree that Irish refs being 'colleagues' of the Provinces was an issue, then all that would suggest is that your theory is supported by the majority, not that the theory is in fact true. Real facts are required to support your implied, if this is what you are implying, claim that Irish refs are influenced to cheat on behalf of their Provincial/IRFU 'colleagues'. Stats wouldn't be conclusive (games won lost, cards, etc..), but would be supportive, however, even the stats suggest what you imply is completely false. So calling the theory BS is appropriate.

You Numpty Very Happy


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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:14 pm

Munchkin wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
If you can't provide facts then it's baseless. Good grief....

Sorry, but what fact would you like to justify my sentence? A link to Gwlad? Twitter? A rugby club conversation?

None of the above. Here's your claim: "That's funny as it's pretty widely recognised in Wales as being an issue."

You would need a reliable poll to justify your claim, not 'my mates told me at a pub', or Mr A Moaner on Twitter said it. It just doesn't work like that. It's like the usual cry, which is BS, 'everybody knows'.

Now, back on real evidence, if there was a poll, and the majority of people in Wales did agree that Irish refs being 'colleagues' of the Provinces was an issue, then all that would suggest is that your theory is supported by the majority, not that the theory is in fact true. Real facts are required to support your implied, if this is what you are implying, claim that Irish refs are influenced to cheat on behalf of their Provincial/IRFU 'colleagues'. Stats wouldn't be conclusive, but would be supportive, however, even the stats suggest what you imply is completely false. So calling the theory BS is appropriate.

I do't think your right until you call him a name!

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:16 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:I do work for two companies one pays me directly and invoices the other monthly for a rough estimate of the time along with other things

Yes I agree, but you are working for two separate entities are you not ? That is having two jobs.

No its one job

it's one job, for two separate employers, you do a job for one, and you do a job for another, so you do the same job twice, which equals two jobs.

That is what I mean. OK

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by munkian on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:16 pm

I, personally, not as the spokesperson of Wales and the Welsh people, believe its a strange state of affairs when you have ANY countries refs being colleagues of its sports teams.

Again, thats ANY country.

ANY.

And again, NOT a spokesperson.
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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Munchkin on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:17 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
If you can't provide facts then it's baseless. Good grief....

Sorry, but what fact would you like to justify my sentence? A link to Gwlad? Twitter? A rugby club conversation?

None of the above. Here's your claim: "That's funny as it's pretty widely recognised in Wales as being an issue."

You would need a reliable poll to justify your claim, not 'my mates told me at a pub', or Mr A Moaner on Twitter said it. It just doesn't work like that. It's like the usual cry, which is BS, 'everybody knows'.

Now, back on real evidence, if there was a poll, and the majority of people in Wales did agree that Irish refs being 'colleagues' of the Provinces was an issue, then all that would suggest is that your theory is supported by the majority, not that the theory is in fact true. Real facts are required to support your implied, if this is what you are implying, claim that Irish refs are influenced to cheat on behalf of their Provincial/IRFU 'colleagues'. Stats wouldn't be conclusive, but would be supportive, however, even the stats suggest what you imply is completely false. So calling the theory BS is appropriate.

I do't think your right until you call him a name!

Oh, you're right. Fixed it Very Happy

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:19 pm

munkian wrote:I, personally, not as the spokesperson of Wales and the Welsh people, believe its a strange state of affairs when you have ANY countries refs being colleagues of its sports teams.

Again, thats ANY country.

ANY.

And again, NOT a spokesperson.


Hooray, back on topic. Yahoo

I agree with this 100%. thumbsup

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Munchkin on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:29 pm

munkian wrote:I, personally, not as the spokesperson of Wales and the Welsh people, believe its a strange state of affairs when you have ANY countries refs being colleagues of its sports teams.

Again, thats ANY country.

ANY.

And again, NOT a spokesperson.

I understand that, but don't have an issue with it. It would be easy to claim any is ref biased. I mean, English AP refs may support an AP team, or come from the location of a team they are officiating for. Easy to make the claim that they would be biased.

Scarlets makes a point which kind of supports the above. The claim that even those refs not officiating a game representing their fellow countrymen can be accused of bias. Some might think they are being hard on one team to help anothers chances in the league. What's the solution for that? If we were to believe the claims, and fix the alleged problem, we wouldn't have any Welsh, Irish, Italian or Scotish referees, in the PRO12.

In effect, we are not trying to fix issues with the refereeing, we are trying to fix an issue with the false perception of disgruntled fans.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:34 pm

Munchkin wrote:If we were to believe the claims, and fix the alleged problem, we wouldn't have any Welsh, Irish, Italian or Scots referees.

That would be ideal, but it will not happen. So the only way for me is to take OUR refs away from the unions and have them answerable to the league. The Pro12 could have a "Head of Referees" role, and it could be somebody from another country not involved with the Pro12, ideally I would like it to be a retired ref, from the SH, he could be the spokesperson for the referees, there is so much more we could be doing with this.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:38 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:I do work for two companies one pays me directly and invoices the other monthly for a rough estimate of the time along with other things

Yes I agree, but you are working for two separate entities are you not ? That is having two jobs.

No its one job

it's one job, for two separate employers, you do a job for one, and you do a job for another, so you do the same job twice, which equals two jobs.

That is what I mean. OK

Its one contract, one title, one role, one office but yes but functions are replicated across the two companies but still one job

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by munkian on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:39 pm

Munchkin wrote:
munkian wrote:I, personally, not as the spokesperson of Wales and the Welsh people, believe its a strange state of affairs when you have ANY countries refs being colleagues of its sports teams.

Again, thats ANY country.

ANY.

And again, NOT a spokesperson.

I understand that, but don't have an issue with it. It would be easy to claim any is ref biased. I mean, English AP refs may support an AP team, or come from the location of a team they are officiating for. Easy to make the claim that they would be biased.

Scarlets makes a point which kind of supports the above. The claim that even those refs not officiating a game representing their fellow countrymen can be accused of bias. Some might think they are being hard on one team to help anothers chances in the league. What's the solution for that? If we were to believe the claims, and fix the alleged problem, we wouldn't have any Welsh, Irish, Italian or Scotish referees.

In effect, we are not trying to fix issues with the refereeing, we are trying to fix an issue with the false perception of disgruntled fans.

I think a professional league shouldn't be organised in a way that things like this COULD be called into doubt rather than I believe things are genuinely biased, if that makes sense ?

I think there probably needs to be more referee training so interpretations are so wildly different from match to match either.
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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Munchkin on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:46 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:If we were to believe the claims, and fix the alleged problem, we wouldn't have any Welsh, Irish, Italian or Scots referees.

That would be ideal, but it will not happen. So the only way for me is to take OUR refs away from the unions and have them answerable to the league. The Pro12 could have a "Head of Referees" role, and it could be somebody from another country not involved with the Pro12, ideally I would like it to be a retired ref, from the SH, he could be the spokesperson for the referees, there is so much more we could be doing with this.

I have thought along that line myself, LD, but it really wouldn't deal with the issue of perceived bias. It's an issue that exists only in the minds of those that think that way. The only real solution, if not removing all Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Italian refs, is to send all those fans to a shrink, and have their heads fixed.

I don't believe the claims of bias, and so don't see it as an issue that needs fixed. Consistency in refereeing I do see as something that could be improved on, and maybe having all PRO12 refs coming from a central pot might help with that. Alternatively, communication between the refs could be improved through video conferencing. Bring them all together to agree on interpretation, providing video samples, and work towards a unity in understanding, on a weekly basis. Cheap solution, if it works.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:49 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:If we were to believe the claims, and fix the alleged problem, we wouldn't have any Welsh, Irish, Italian or Scots referees.

That would be ideal, but it will not happen. So the only way for me is to take OUR refs away from the unions and have them answerable to the league. The Pro12 could have a "Head of Referees" role, and it could be somebody from another country not involved with the Pro12, ideally I would like it to be a retired ref, from the SH, he could be the spokesperson for the referees, there is so much more we could be doing with this.

I have thought along that line myself, LD, but it really wouldn't deal with the issue of perceived bias. It's an issue that exists only in the minds of those that think that way. The only real solution, if not removing all Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Italian refs, is to send all those fans to a shrink, and have their heads fixed.

I don't believe the claims of bias, and so don't see it as an issue that needs fixed. Consistency in refereeing I do see as something that could be improved on, and maybe having all PRO12 refs coming from a central pot might help with that. Alternatively, communication between the refs could be improved through video conferencing. Bring them all together to agree on interpretation, providing video samples, and work towards a unity in understanding, on a weekly basis. Cheap solution, if it works.

Given that a lot of refs can't be consistent with their own decisions, the odds of us getting a group of them to be is asking a lot

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Munchkin on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:52 pm

munkian wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
munkian wrote:I, personally, not as the spokesperson of Wales and the Welsh people, believe its a strange state of affairs when you have ANY countries refs being colleagues of its sports teams.

Again, thats ANY country.

ANY.

And again, NOT a spokesperson.

I understand that, but don't have an issue with it. It would be easy to claim any is ref biased. I mean, English AP refs may support an AP team, or come from the location of a team they are officiating for. Easy to make the claim that they would be biased.

Scarlets makes a point which kind of supports the above. The claim that even those refs not officiating a game representing their fellow countrymen can be accused of bias. Some might think they are being hard on one team to help anothers chances in the league. What's the solution for that? If we were to believe the claims, and fix the alleged problem, we wouldn't have any Welsh, Irish, Italian or Scotish referees.

In effect, we are not trying to fix issues with the refereeing, we are trying to fix an issue with the false perception of disgruntled fans.

I think a professional league shouldn't be organised in a way that things like this COULD be called into doubt rather than I believe things are genuinely biased, if that makes sense ?

I think there probably needs to be more referee training so interpretations are so wildly different from match to match either.

You make perfect sense. If there is a way to effectively, and practically, help reduce a perception of bias, it should be done. just don't know how that can be achieved though. Actually, I think it's just a part of sport culture, in any league, in any sport.

Totally agree on the issue with interpretation. That's an issue that I think we would all like to see tackled. That and the use of TMO.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:53 pm

After years and years Munchkin, I think we are finally coming to an agreement over something. Hug or vomit

Which ever you prefer. Very Happy

The thing is, we have refs reffing the Irish way, which will be more akin to the Irish provinces, we have Welsh refs, reffing the Welsh way, more akin to the Welsh teams and so on.

We need refs, reffing the Pro12 way, all under one style, all under one remit and all answerable to the same shooting squad. Wink

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Munchkin on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:55 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:If we were to believe the claims, and fix the alleged problem, we wouldn't have any Welsh, Irish, Italian or Scots referees.

That would be ideal, but it will not happen. So the only way for me is to take OUR refs away from the unions and have them answerable to the league. The Pro12 could have a "Head of Referees" role, and it could be somebody from another country not involved with the Pro12, ideally I would like it to be a retired ref, from the SH, he could be the spokesperson for the referees, there is so much more we could be doing with this.

I have thought along that line myself, LD, but it really wouldn't deal with the issue of perceived bias. It's an issue that exists only in the minds of those that think that way. The only real solution, if not removing all Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Italian refs, is to send all those fans to a shrink, and have their heads fixed.

I don't believe the claims of bias, and so don't see it as an issue that needs fixed. Consistency in refereeing I do see as something that could be improved on, and maybe having all PRO12 refs coming from a central pot might help with that. Alternatively, communication between the refs could be improved through video conferencing. Bring them all together to agree on interpretation, providing video samples, and work towards a unity in understanding, on a weekly basis. Cheap solution, if it works.

Given that a lot of refs can't be consistent with their own decisions, the odds of us getting a group of them to be is asking a lot

Some can be a bit flaky, and I don't think consistency will ever be perfected. Just more consistency would be great though.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:57 pm

LordDowlais wrote:The thing is, we have refs reffing the Irish way

I wish somebody had told Ulster, the number of penalties Lacey and Clancy give against us makes me think there may be a bias Run

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 4:59 pm

So are we agreed then ? We have come about a way we think the referee's should be sorted in the Pro12 ?

Right, now what do we do about the Italians ? Very Happy

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

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