The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

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The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 9:35 am

First topic message reminder :

I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them. 

So, the Pro12, how could it move forward, for me there are one or two bones of contention for me, and that is the refereeing situation we find ourselves in, and the two Italian sides, firstly I will speak about the Italian sides, they have been here for a few years now and they are getting worse, now whether that is because of the fall out with the CC or not, the simple fact is they are not adding much to the league other than a banker five points when they travel and the odd banana skin when teams travel to play them. I would not like to see the Italians cut adrift, but at the same time they seriously need to up their game, at the moment they look as if they do not want to be here and are just waiting for the season to end, recent results have reflected this. I also think, that at the moment a place in the top tier of Europe is a waste for them, they will never win that competition with the state they are in at the moment and I think it would be far more beneficial for them to play in the second tier where they would have a better chance of picking up results and giving them more confidence. Jonathan Davies was pretty scathing about them on Scrum V on Sunday night:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36068740

Now I do not agree with him when it comes to ditching the Italians, but he does make a good point. Something needs to be seriously looked at when we are considering the two Italian teams, what would you suggest ?

Secondly I will talk about our refereeing situation, I am very uncomfortable with the status quo we find ourselves in at the moment when it comes to the referees, I am not comfortable that we are in a situation where the unions employ the referees AND the players. This leads to calls of potential bias, and the union controlled teams bringing their own refs with them, I think the referees should be employed by a central organisation, not the unions, and I think that the central organisation should be the league itself, the money the unions pay the refs should be payed to the league and then the league should have direct control over the referees. The league should then have a remit of how the refs should perform, and all the refs should be singing from the same hymn sheet, not that of their respective unions. Only when something like this happens will we see an improvement.

I would also like to talk about an article I read on WOL that Jeremy Guscott scratched upon, and states that we should be improving our brand of rugby to be able to compete with the French and English, also he has pointed out that because our CC players are restricted to the amount of games they can play, they hamper the teams involved, this I agree with, and I would rather we rested our players for Europe and played them more in the league. Guscott says that because there is no relegation from the Pro12 then there should be no excuses for us not playing a better brand of rugby. Anyway here's the link if anyone is interested:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-legend-tells-welsh-regions-11202285

Do you agree with Jeremy Guscott ?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 11:05 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Do people in general view Munster and Leinster as the same team with same individual goals? Would one deliberately throw a game, grant bonus points if it benefitted the other?

I assume this is a joke

Only someone who doesn't have a clue about Irish rugby could even consider this.

Not a joke, just a way to look at the issues here. They receive their funding from the same organisation who pays the ref don't they? I don't think anyone would suggest they sing from the same hymn sheet, yet that accusation is pointed at refs. Suggests to me this isn't really the issue?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 11:09 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Did you see him LD?

Not personally no. But I remember the outrage, it was when the fans were all outside waiting for the teams to show up so that they could get photographs and autographs and selfies and the what not.

Dudley got off the Munster team coach when they turned up. Laugh

I wonder how many saw him or were told he did, Im sure if they were all getting photos someone has one?

Or is it again a rumour that some chose to believe because it sits with their narrative?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Griff on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 11:29 am

Dudley had the microphone on the team coach and was leading the singing, while wearing an inflatable Munster cowboy hat. Fact!

He was heard exiting the coach shouting "come on laaaads, let's stick one up these Taffy b*astards. I'll give you two points for every point scored. Muuuuunster! Muuuuunster! Muuuuunster!"

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Griff on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 11:34 am

At least that's what WalesOnline reported... Whistle

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 11:35 am

Griff wrote:Dudley had the microphone on the team coach and was leading the singing, while wearing an inflatable Munster cowboy hat. Fact!

He was heard exiting the coach shouting "come on laaaads, let's stick one up these Taffy b*astards.  I'll give you two points for every point scored.  Muuuuunster! Muuuuunster! Muuuuunster!"

Laugh

And showed his incompetence when he got on the field and instead gave 10 penalties to Ospreys to Munsters 6, 6 of Ospreys in kicking range


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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Griff on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 11:42 am

Yes, he was incompetent at seeing through the agreed plan!

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 11:44 am

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/25644/exclusive-rfu-agree-220m-deal-for-their-premiership-clubs/

The above link points to the ever increasing revenues that are flowing to Premiership clubs. 

£6m/€7.5m a year per club is not to be sneezed at.  Am wondering if any English fans could clarify what happens with European comp monies.   Are they paid to RFU and then just passed on to PRL without any deduction or do PRL receive them directly from EPCR?

As I understand it, the monies go to the four unions in PRO12 who decide on allocation to clubs. I don't know what the position is in France.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 11:49 am

This is interesting, from a Scottish point of view:-

http://www.scottishrugbyblog.co.uk/2015/03/12-ways-to-fix-the-guinness-pro12/

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 11:59 am

LordDowlais wrote:This is interesting, from a Scottish point of view:-

http://www.scottishrugbyblog.co.uk/2015/03/12-ways-to-fix-the-guinness-pro12/

Its interesting but hugely flawed and based a lot on perception with a lack of understanding n why things are as they are, it says about adding Welsh and Scottish and it being cheaper than a new franchise and can be a developmental side etc then calls for less influence from Unions even though a developmental side would require union influence? Erm

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:28 pm

LordDowlais wrote:This is interesting, from a Scottish point of view:-

http://www.scottishrugbyblog.co.uk/2015/03/12-ways-to-fix-the-guinness-pro12/

I got to say that was quite interesting to read through, and a fair few of the point mentioned on there have been raised on here in the past by some less favourable posters, but worded far better.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:28 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:This is interesting, from a Scottish point of view:-

http://www.scottishrugbyblog.co.uk/2015/03/12-ways-to-fix-the-guinness-pro12/

Its interesting but hugely flawed and based a lot on perception with a lack of understanding n why things are as they are, it says about adding Welsh and Scottish and it being cheaper than a new franchise and can be a developmental side etc then calls for less influence from Unions even though a developmental side would require union influence? Erm


Have you read the comments ? Some interesting points of view there.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:31 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I got to say that was quite interesting to read through, and a fair few of the point mentioned on there have been raised on here in the past by some less favourable posters, but worded far better.

Exactly, so it is not just us Welsh who are fed up with certain aspects of the Pro12. OK

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Munchkin on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:40 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:If they made a contribution we could drop the likes of Hodges and Phillips who are both absolute jokes.

I agree, they are both very frustrating refs, and not up to he standard we need, the difference is, they are not employed by the same organisation as the players, it's things like this we need to move away from mostly.

Still employed by the WRU though, and it's the WRU that the Regions are affiliated to. Reading this article below, I can't see much difference between how they and the Irish refs work with their respective Unions:



"Two upcoming Welsh referees, Craig Evans and Ben Whitehouse have been appointed by the Welsh Rugby Union as professional match officials.

Evans, 23, who hails from Glyneath and Whitehouse, 24, from Gowerton join Nigel Owens on the Union's panel of full-time referees.

The two youngsters, who will work closely with the four Welsh Regions and all the national squads, are already familiar with the demands of top class rugby having come through the very successful WRU referees academy system and were identified very early as referees with huge potential.

Having both already operated at Principality Premiership, British & Irish and LV=Cup level, Whitehouse made his Guinness PRO12 debut this season and is currently on duty at the World Rugby U20 Championship in Italy where he will take charge of France v Japan tomorrow (Saturday). Evans, who was voted Principality Premiership Referee of the Year at last week’s Annual Awards Dinner, also has a busy summer ahead having been selected to officiate at all the Rugby Europe 7s tournaments as well as the Olympic qualifiers.

Evans was previously a personal trainer, while Whitehouse was a police officer before joining the Welsh Rugby Union.

Evans said, “I am very grateful to the WRU for giving me this opportunity and the support I have received to date has been tremendous. I can now concentrate solely on my refereeing career and hopefully make significant strides. I am really looking forward to the challenge ahead”.

Whitehouse added: “The demands that are now placed on referees especially with travelling and analysis at professional level meant it was very difficult to balance a full time job and refereeing. This opportunity and challenge is one I am relishing.”

Nigel Whitehouse, WRU National Match Officials Manager said: “This will be a great opportunity for both these young referees to concentrate fully on their refereeing. They will work closely with Nigel Owens as part of their development and will link with the four Regions and the age grade pathway structure within the Union, along with assisting in delivering referee training and courses.”

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:42 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:I got to say that was quite interesting to read through, and a fair few of the point mentioned on there have been raised on here in the past by some less favourable posters, but worded far better.

Exactly, so it is not just us Welsh who are fed up with certain aspects of the Pro12. OK

I actually found it a bit reassuring to be honest.

The bit regarding the three 'Scottish' refs was good to see acknowledged. Also it was refreshing to see people other than the welsh have questions about both union involvement and where the headquarters of the league are based. I am not too sure I agree with what is said, but it is still good to hear is coming from people who fall outside of the normal group raising concerns.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:44 pm

And now Munchkin jumps in to make it all tribal. Look, I do not care what nationality the refs are, I just think that in our unique situation, we should not have union controlled refs AND teams.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by munkian on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:44 pm

I think moving the HQ may help, stop all this Pro'12 stuff - its always been an Irish centric league - a change would be good.


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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:46 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:This is interesting, from a Scottish point of view:-

http://www.scottishrugbyblog.co.uk/2015/03/12-ways-to-fix-the-guinness-pro12/

Its interesting but hugely flawed and based a lot on perception with a lack of understanding n why things are as they are, it says about adding Welsh and Scottish and it being cheaper than a new franchise and can be a developmental side etc then calls for less influence from Unions even though a developmental side would require union influence? Erm


Have you read the comments ? Some interesting points of view there.

the Irishcentric nature of governing bodies at the moment.
Organisations moving capitals seems sensible to avoid this.

This is one of the things Im talking about, the Pro 12 etc are based in Dublin because it offers more favourable tax which means more money in the league. If its Irish centric then why aren't the unions kicking up a fuss over the 6Ns or Lions?

The Pro12 IMO is a good league which is marketed very poorly. The scheduling is also terrible. These are the two main issues for me. I tend to think there should be a hiatus during the 6N so that people pay to see the best players and not shadow sides. I do accept that during this period we get to see players who may not get a chance otherwise but I would rather always see the best players.

While right on the marketing the best players don't always equal the best entertainment or value, the Top 14 and AP both have games during 6Ns and AI windows the problem is for the Pro 12 there is a greater concentration of internationals in the Pro 12

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:50 pm

marty, like others are saying, it is refreshing to see that other people from other countries involved in the Pro12 can see what is wrong. We cannot ALL be mad.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:51 pm

LordDowlais wrote:marty, like others are saying, it is refreshing to see that other people from other countries involved in the Pro12 can see what is wrong. We cannot ALL be mad.

So one of 3 organisations is Irish centric and the other two aren't?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by munkian on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:55 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:marty, like others are saying, it is refreshing to see that other people from other countries involved in the Pro12 can see what is wrong. We cannot ALL be mad.

So one of 3 organisations is Irish centric and the other two aren't?

I'd be happy if they were more spread out - but we are discussing the pro12 and not a once a year tournament and a once every 4 years tour. Pro12 is far more pressing.


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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:57 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:marty, like others are saying, it is refreshing to see that other people from other countries involved in the Pro12 can see what is wrong. We cannot ALL be mad.

So one of 3 organisations is Irish centric and the other two aren't?


No.

Firstly, it should be the other "three"

Secondly, I bet there are Irish people who might feel the same as well, they are just not members of this forum. OK

Please, lets not have you and munchkin turn this into an Irish v Welsh thing again, I just want to look at ways we can improve the Pro12 and I honestly believe having refs under an independent organisation is the way forward, no matter what country they come from. OK

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by munkian on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:58 pm

Or at least based elsewhere.


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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Munchkin on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:04 pm

PRO12 refs and their cards:

http://www.worldclubrugby.com/analysis/discipline.php?seasonID=21&competitionsID=1



Fitzgibbon awarded 5 yellow cards to the Irish, and three to the Welsh. Clearly biased.....

Dudley Philips awarded six yellow cards to the Italians, one to the Scots, four to the Welsh and six to the Irish. Clearly biased....

Clancy awarded one card against Scarlets, when they played Zebre.

Lacey awarded one card each to the Italians, Welsh and Scots.

Whitehouse awarded nine against the Welsh, three against the Scots, three against the Italians and nine against the Irish. Not biased, but he really loves handing out the cards.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:06 pm

Munchkin, stop in mun !!!!! steam

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Munchkin on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:09 pm

LordDowlais wrote:And now Munchkin jumps in to make it all tribal. Look, I do not care what nationality the refs are, I just think that in our unique situation, we should not have union controlled refs AND teams.

Hardly making it tribal. Seems to be you that likes to make it tribal. I'm just adding balance to your claims. You don't like it, tough.

I posted an article, and instead of addressing the article you attack me. I'm fine with that, but you moan an awful lot when people do the same with you.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by SecretFly on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:09 pm

My God, everybody is agin us............................ Wink

Next we'll have the UN suggesting the Government of Ireland be moved out of the country as it presumes a bias having them based in Dublin.

HERE!, HERE! say we Irish. Move them out.... one way tickets to darkest Amazon. We'll rule ourselves... for a change...... Cool

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Munchkin on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:10 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Munchkin, stop in mun !!!!! steam

Facts are your enemy, LD Very Happy

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:18 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:marty, like others are saying, it is refreshing to see that other people from other countries involved in the Pro12 can see what is wrong. We cannot ALL be mad.

So one of 3 organisations is Irish centric and the other two aren't?


No.

Firstly, it should be the other "three"

Secondly, I bet there are Irish people who might feel the same as well, they are just not members of this forum. OK

Please, lets not have you and munchkin turn this into an Irish v Welsh thing again, I just want to look at ways we can improve the Pro12 and I honestly believe having refs under an independent organisation is the way forward, no matter what country they come from. OK

I believe the refs should be under the Pro 12 too the impediment though is World Rugby

That's nothing to do with where the Pro 12 is based though, its Irish centric because its based in Dublin? And its 2 because funnily enough the IRFU is Irish centric but is not run by the same people who run the Pro12, 6Ns and Lions, maybe we should include Leinster too though?

The argument is its Irish centric but moving it to Wales would under that logic make it Welsh centric, even though the board consists of people from across the nations and there is a Welsh chairman, English MD and Englishman in charge of refs?

Irish based is a big difference to Irish centric. If the Stormont Assembly ever sort out corporation tax then maybe it can create a bit of distance and move to Belfast thumbsup

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:18 pm

Look, there is no need to try and win the internet all the time. Rolling Eyes

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by munkian on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:22 pm

The sponsors have also been Irish centric too.

Using the IRFU is a bit daft to be fair. I wouldnt particularly want the Pro 12 based in Wales tbh, Scotland maybe ?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:25 pm

munkian wrote:The sponsors have also been Irish centric too.

Using the IRFU is a bit daft to be fair. I wouldnt particularly want the Pro 12 based in Wales tbh, Scotland maybe ?

Theres been 1 Irish sponsor

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:26 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:marty, like others are saying, it is refreshing to see that other people from other countries involved in the Pro12 can see what is wrong. We cannot ALL be mad.

So one of 3 organisations is Irish centric and the other two aren't?

Wasn't it one of the reasons that was used for the death of the HEC too?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by munkian on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:27 pm

Magners and Guinness ? Plus no one else has Rabbo banks bar Italy and I believe Ireland ?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Munchkin on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:27 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:marty, like others are saying, it is refreshing to see that other people from other countries involved in the Pro12 can see what is wrong. We cannot ALL be mad.

So one of 3 organisations is Irish centric and the other two aren't?


No.

Firstly, it should be the other "three"

Secondly, I bet there are Irish people who might feel the same as well, they are just not members of this forum. OK

Please, lets not have you and munchkin turn this into an Irish v Welsh thing again, I just want to look at ways we can improve the Pro12 and I honestly believe having refs under an independent organisation is the way forward, no matter what country they come from. OK

Yeah, right, it's us that are doing that Rolling Eyes

I would like to see all PRO12 refs employed and trained by the same organisation, in the hope of more consistent refereeing. Nothing to do with bias, although claims of bias would still be made.


Last edited by Munchkin on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Griff on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:27 pm

The thing it, it has to be based somewhere. Makes no sense to have it somewhere neutral, as you have to move people involved/employed to countries where they don't reside e.g. England, Spain, Iceland.... If it's based in one of the Pro12 countries there will be accusations of bias. Unavoidable.

It's like the arguments over where the Welsh regions should be based. People say Dragons shouldn't be in Newport, people say it should be in Ebbw Vale, people say it shouldn't be in Pontypool. FFS where should it be?! F*cking Shropshire?!


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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by munkian on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:28 pm

Griff wrote:The thing it, it has to be based somewhere.  Makes no sense to have it somewhere neutral, as you have to move people involved/employed to countries where they don't reside e.g. England, Spain, Iceland.... If it's based in one of the Pro12 countries there will be accusations of bias.  Unavoidable.

It's like the arguments over where the Welsh regions should be based.  People say Dragons shouldn't be in Newport, people say it should be in Ebbw Vale, people say it shouldn't be in Pontypool.  FFS where should it be?! F*cking Shropshire?!


No way, f*ck Shropshire !!! mad

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:29 pm

SecretFly wrote:My God, everybody is agin us............................ Wink

Next we'll have the UN suggesting the Government of Ireland be moved out of the country as it presumes a bias having them based in Dublin.

HERE!, HERE!  say we Irish.  Move them out.... one way tickets to darkest Amazon.   We'll rule ourselves... for a change...... Cool

Amazon have very agreeable tax deals too Run

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:30 pm

munkian wrote:Magners and Guinness ? Plus no one else has Rabbo banks bar Italy and I believe Ireland ?

Magners is the only Irish sponsor, Guiness is owned by Diageo which is British owned and Rabo is Dutch. Unless you are suggesting that the Pro 12 isn't getting all it can from sponsors then that's who is willing to put the money up. Rabo was actually one of the better things to happen to the league as they brought an improved vision on marketing to the league though theres still huge strides to take there

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:31 pm

marty2086 wrote:That's nothing to do with where the Pro 12 is based though, its Irish centric because its based in Dublin?

By definition, if it is based in Ireland, then that is the centre of the organisation, and that makes it Irish centric.  Whether that means that there is an advantage given to the Irish based on that is another thing.

marty2086 wrote:moving it to Wales would under that logic make it Welsh centric

I would agree with that.


Last edited by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Griff on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:31 pm

munkian wrote:
Griff wrote:The thing it, it has to be based somewhere.  Makes no sense to have it somewhere neutral, as you have to move people involved/employed to countries where they don't reside e.g. England, Spain, Iceland.... If it's based in one of the Pro12 countries there will be accusations of bias.  Unavoidable.

It's like the arguments over where the Welsh regions should be based.  People say Dragons shouldn't be in Newport, people say it should be in Ebbw Vale, people say it shouldn't be in Pontypool.  FFS where should it be?! F*cking Shropshire?!


No way, f*ck Shropshire !!! mad

Actually that was a bad example. I love Shropshire!

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:34 pm

Munchkin wrote:I would like to see all PRO12 refs employed and trained by the same organisation, in the hope of more consistent refereeing. Nothing to do with bias, although claims of bias would still be made.

One of the main reasons why I would like to see all refs under one umbrella is so that they can all be singing off the same hymn sheet, they could all have the same remits, they could all have the same instructions ect.

At the moment we have the WRU sorting out one set of refs, then the IRFU sorting out another set of refs, SRFU sorting out other refs and FIR sorting out other refs. All these unions are giving their refs different instructions, they all have different bosses to keep happy, it's a shambles.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:37 pm

Griff wrote:
munkian wrote:
Griff wrote:The thing it, it has to be based somewhere.  Makes no sense to have it somewhere neutral, as you have to move people involved/employed to countries where they don't reside e.g. England, Spain, Iceland.... If it's based in one of the Pro12 countries there will be accusations of bias.  Unavoidable.

It's like the arguments over where the Welsh regions should be based.  People say Dragons shouldn't be in Newport, people say it should be in Ebbw Vale, people say it shouldn't be in Pontypool.  FFS where should it be?! F*cking Shropshire?!


No way, f*ck Shropshire !!! mad

Actually that was a bad example.  I love Shropshire!

If the ditch the Italians and bring in the Londoners idea ever kicks off, then we could base it in London. That way it is out of any of the unions homelands, but still somewhere were the league is. And it may help to push the 'product' in England (bigger TV deals etc).

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:39 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Griff wrote:
munkian wrote:
Griff wrote:The thing it, it has to be based somewhere.  Makes no sense to have it somewhere neutral, as you have to move people involved/employed to countries where they don't reside e.g. England, Spain, Iceland.... If it's based in one of the Pro12 countries there will be accusations of bias.  Unavoidable.

It's like the arguments over where the Welsh regions should be based.  People say Dragons shouldn't be in Newport, people say it should be in Ebbw Vale, people say it shouldn't be in Pontypool.  FFS where should it be?! F*cking Shropshire?!


No way, f*ck Shropshire !!! mad

Actually that was a bad example.  I love Shropshire!

If the ditch the Italians and bring in the Londoners idea ever kicks off, then we could base it in London.  That way it is out of any of the unions homelands, but still somewhere were the league is.  And it may help to push the 'product' in England (bigger TV deals etc).

Problem is that the RFU then need to come on board is those teams come in as its in their jurisdiction, so you have the same problem unless you stick it in Italy because its the only way itll be competitive if they are running the thing Whistle

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by SecretFly on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:48 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I would like to see all PRO12 refs employed and trained by the same organisation, in the hope of more consistent refereeing. Nothing to do with bias, although claims of bias would still be made.

One of the main reasons why I would like to see all refs under one umbrella is so that they can all be singing off the same hymn sheet, they could all have the same remits, they could all have the same instructions ect.

At the moment we have the WRU sorting out one set of refs, then the IRFU sorting out another set of refs, SRFU sorting out other refs and FIR sorting out other refs. All these unions are giving their refs different instructions, they all have different bosses to keep happy, it's a shambles.

It's four Nations involved!

Sometime I think many of you are bamboozled by all this and half think that somehow we're all the one and therefore that there is far too much complexity that gets in the way.  

The complexity is real and unavoidable because it is a Multi-National League.  France doesn't have the complexity and England don't have the complexity. So let's stop trying to find a generalised solution that somehow pretends we're all the one and should all sing from the one hymn sheet.

We don't and we never will.  And why should we?

So it's simply about how we manage the complexity rather than eternally using the damn French and the damn English as examples of how it should be.  No - it can't be so crisp because it's a completely different product we have.

Irish refs will still be Irish refs.... regardless of what Shop front sign they use.  Welsh refs will still be Welsh refs.  The PRESUMPTION of BIAS will last as long as the Pro12 lasts.
And if there were to be a Irish&British league in the future, those presumptions would only intensify.  

If your team has a bad day, you'll blame something.  Why not the foreign ref?  It's as good an excuse as any.

The problem I have with your theories always, Lord, is that you seem so certain there is a solution to all the problems and a Utopia just around the corner always.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Munchkin on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:53 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I would like to see all PRO12 refs employed and trained by the same organisation, in the hope of more consistent refereeing. Nothing to do with bias, although claims of bias would still be made.

One of the main reasons why I would like to see all refs under one umbrella is so that they can all be singing off the same hymn sheet, they could all have the same remits, they could all have the same instructions ect.

At the moment we have the WRU sorting out one set of refs, then the IRFU sorting out another set of refs, SRFU sorting out other refs and FIR sorting out other refs. All these unions are giving their refs different instructions, they all have different bosses to keep happy, it's a shambles.

It could certainly be improved. I don't have so much of an issue with the refereeing, as I do with the use of TMO. Refs make mistakes, and although I hate it when those mistakes mean Ulster lose an advantage, I accept them for what they are .... once I've calmed down. I do think we need to see more consistent reffing of the game though. It would benefit the game if all refs applied the same interpretation of the laws. The link I provided also shows that some refs are homers. That's something that should be addressed as well.


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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:53 pm

If it is based in Italy, we could have one of the big car manufacturers sponsoring us. I can see it now:-

The FERRARI Pro12.  Yahoo
The Lamborghini Pro12. Yahoo
The Alfa Romeo Pro12. Yahoo

The Maserati Pro12. Yahoo
The Lancia Pro12. Yahoo

..................................................................

The Fiat Pro12. Whistle

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 1:58 pm

SecretFly wrote:The problem I have with your theories always, Lord, is that you seem so certain there is a solution to all the problems and a Utopia just around the corner always.


And why should that be a problem ? Surely we can sort out this refereeing problem with putting them all under ONE boss.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by SecretFly on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 2:08 pm

They are under one boss!  He's English I believe??  Seems he hasn't being doing too well at all given the continuing moans and groans from the usual suspects.

What next?  A Georgian?  A Samoan?  

What the hell does 'One Boss' mean, Lord?  It sounds sweet but what does it mean?

Under the umbrella of Pro12 - paid by Pro12.  Pro12 is the boss?

So be it.  Pro12 is still not a Nation.  None of the Refs will have a loyalty to or an affinity to Pro12.  It's just a title Four Nations use to compete against each other.  The members of Pro12 will still have their Nationalistic loyalties within the Pro12 structure.  

Who will be the 'Boss'?

PS...it's a problem because people that demand Utopia are never..ever...happy.  And since that's unachievable then that means an eternity of moans regardless of any restructuring.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 2:20 pm

SecretFly wrote:What the hell does 'One Boss' mean, Lord?  It sounds sweet but what does it mean?

The Pro12.

SecretFly wrote:Under the umbrella of Pro12 - paid by Pro12.  Pro12 is the boss?

Yes.

SecretFly wrote:So be it.  Pro12 is still not a Nation.

I know. Headscratch

SecretFly wrote: None of the Refs will have a loyalty to or an affinity to Pro12.

Yes they will, as the Pro12 would be in charge of them and pay their wages every week.

SecretFly wrote:The members of Pro12 will still have their Nationalistic loyalties within the Pro12 structure.  

Yes but the refs will not because of the above answer. Also, if a Welsh ref makes a mistake in favour of a Welsh side I doubt he will get as much of a rollocking from the WRU as he would off an independent boss.

SecretFly wrote:Who will be the 'Boss'?

The top man at the Pro12 and whoever he puts in charge of the refs, hopefully somebody who is not Welsh/Irish/Scottish or Italian.
SecretFly wrote:PS...it's a problem because people that demand Utopia are never..ever...happy. And since that's unachievable then that means an eternity of moans regardless of any restructuring.

I am not demanding utopia, I just want a league where the officials are not on the same payroll as the teams involved. Could you imagine the uproar if there was a Scottish umpire who got paid by the same people who pay Andy Murray in charge of an Andy Murray tennis match ?


I hope this helps. Rolling Eyes

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 2:26 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote: None of the Refs will have a loyalty to or an affinity to Pro12.

Yes they will, as the Pro12 would be in charge of them and pay their wages every week.

SecretFly wrote:The members of Pro12 will still have their Nationalistic loyalties within the Pro12 structure.  

Yes but the refs will not because of the above answer. Also, if a Welsh ref makes a mistake in favour of a Welsh side I doubt he will get as much of a rollocking from the WRU as he would off an independent boss.

How many fans actually complain about who pays who outside of here?

They complain about Irish/Welsh/Scottish refs making decisions in favour of teams from their country not on the same payroll, that's a perception problem which will never go away it will just quieten down.

When the number of refs from Scotland and Italy go up and neutrality addressed, those fans will be complaining about something else.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

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