Should the ERC/6N/Pro 12 move from Dublin?

Valid critics or even high-level conspiracy theorists believe that having most of European Rugby's league and cup offices based in Dublin, led by an Irishman with mainly Irish staff is unfair. Questions about neutrality of decisions related to referee appointments, staging of home knockout games, financial decisions on sponsorship, TV rights, etc have been raised.

Should they be moved elsewhere or rotated every number of years?

I don't think this is a big issue. Wherever it goes, the potential to raise the same concern exists. Unless you move it to the South Pole. Keep in mind the IRB is based in Dublin as well.

Anyone know why it was put in Dublin in the first place? seems like a pretty random place to put it. It would probably make more sense to put it in London or Paris wouldn't it.

I would think the overheads are going to be higher Dublin is a very expensive city.

it was in dublin where the euro cup idea materialised through tom kiernan and as far as i know this is why it was set up here. think its quite nice that london dont have it and i live in london.

I dont think the IRB is run by Ireland at all, I think Ireland is probably one of the fairest countries you could put it in.

Putting it in England would annoy everyone, Australia would probably abuse it, New Zealand do far to much chest thumping and tantrums to be allowed it, South Africa and Welsh rugby is generally corrupt to the core and always implodes every few years. Scotland can't be trusted to run their own national game. So I think Ireland is probably the best choice.

What about Hong Kong!

The IRB that is. Wouldn't make sense to have the ERC there.

Hmmm, Dublin? Why Dublin? Well...........hmmm, why not?

Obviously, the people who like rugby (by all means not all Irish) also love Dublin. Incidently you forgeot the IRB, that also has its headquarters in Dublin.

That's IRB, ERC (Six Nations/Heineken), and Pro12. I think we should also bid for being headquarters of the Top14, AP, Tri Nations and Super 15. All eggs in one basket makes for much more effective real-world communication between organisations

SecretFly wrote:Hmmm, Dublin? Why Dublin? Well...........hmmm, why not?

Obviously, the people who like rugby (by all means not all Irish) also love Dublin. Incidently you forgeot the IRB, that also has its headquarters in Dublin.

That's IRB, ERC (Six Nations/Heineken), and Pro12. I think we should also bid for being headquarters of the Top14, AP, Tri Nations and Super 15. All eggs in one basket makes for much more effective real-world communicdomination between organisations

Fixed that for you.

Pot Hale wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Hmmm, Dublin? Why Dublin? Well...........hmmm, why not?

Obviously, the people who like rugby (by all means not all Irish) also love Dublin. Incidently you forgeot the IRB, that also has its headquarters in Dublin.

That's IRB, ERC (Six Nations/Heineken), and Pro12. I think we should also bid for being headquarters of the Top14, AP, Tri Nations and Super 15. All eggs in one basket makes for much more effective real-world communicdomination between organisations

Fixed that for you.

...yeah...yeah, that Does sound even better. I like it.

I don't think it matters where it is, as long as it's in one of the 6 nations.

The tax breaks that the Irish Govt offered companies (an at the end of the day that is what these organisations are) means that everyone involved gets a bigger share of the income than if they were based in any other relevant city.

Better tax breaks may be available in Dubai etc but IRB/ERC etc should be in a major rugby playing country.

Pot Hale wrote:Valid critics or even high-level conspiracy theorists believe that having most of European Rugby's league and cup offices based in Dublin, led by an Irishman with mainly Irish staff is unfair. Questions about neutrality of decisions related to referee appointments, staging of home knockout games, financial decisions on sponsorship, TV rights, etc have been raised.

Should they be moved elsewhere or rotated every number of years?

I’ve never seen any of these concerns raised?

I’ve seen concerns raised about teams like Biarritz who always seem to have the handiest HC groups ever, French teams getting home semi finals when the final is in Paris etc.

I do think the HC groups were rigged this year - they do particularly benefit one side based in Dublin.

Though saying that this season's HC groups are some of the most balanced for some time and that's a good thing.

Also the rugby side based in Dublin did have the group of death last season so it's only fair they have the weakest group this season in regards to balance.

I don't think there is much wrong with having the headquarters in Dublin.

The side based in Dublin4! Get the etiquette right, beshocked! Won't have you speaking of that side in general willy-nilly anywhere-in-Dublin terms.

We certainly got a handier group this time around, but then so did every other team in that group. Hard to think of a tougher group possible on paper. Top14 champions, future AP champions, future HC winners and a cash rich French team as 4th seeds!

I agree Mickado that group was incredibly strong. Would be funny if 3 of those sides top their pools - Leinster,Sarries and Clermont. It wouldn't be a surprise if they did.

I apologise Secretfly.

Does it really matter where it is? Also, if you were to move it somewhere else I'm sure there would be even more eyebrows raised.

It probably is for tax reasons that the ERC & IRB are both based in Dublin.

A couple of years ago there was a group with the eventual winners of the T14, AP and ML in it. but they also had Viadana in there and none of them went on to win the cup, so I’m not counting that.

Yeah Beshocked, of the 3 venues that Leinster have played home fixtures in all of them are within 10 mins walk in D4, technically Croke Park was a home game for Munster, which is in D3 on the other side of the river.

It was funny last year that the draw that meant french sides were playing in away HC semi finals was made in Paris, with an ex-French international doing the draw, and the draw being broadcast online. That didn't stop the Toulon owner giving out that the ERC is based in Dublin and Leinster were having a home semi-final if they got through their qf.

A couple of reasons for having the HQs in Dublin;
- it is a highish tiered nation but not seen as one of the big boys
- company law wise and tax wise it might be easier to get bigger contracts in place and divvy out the money back to the unions easier and with less cost (tax, red tape, etc.)
- some of these competitions were proposed by IRFU who took the lead/hit in setting up the back offices
- we (Irish) ain't actually that bad at running some organisations. We put ourselves down alot (or don't big ourselves up).

I've never heard of any theories about it being Dublin Based.

The reason teh IRB is in Dublin is Ireland Scotland and Wales formed the IRB, and must have decided that Dublin at the time was the easiest base. England only joined the IRB a few years later, and they must have decided to stay in Dublin.

Having the other European bodies based where the IRB are makes sense, no travelling for meeting should make it all run smoother. Therefore I have no problems with it being in Dublin and certainly see no favourtism toward Ireland or the Provinces.

Did any conspiracy theorists say anything when Ireland were ppicking up all those woodenspoons in the 80's and 90's?

Let's have a swap then. We'll give London the ERC (we'll keep the IRB just to have our fingers still in the till, so to speak, in manner of speaking, wink, wink, nod, nod)...and you can give us...let me see..........em, Buckingham Palace? No, too royal. The Tate Modern? No, too highbrow. We'll have Hyde Park. We'll fit it into North Dublin somewhere where there is a lack of parkland speedwalking room.

Kingshu wrote:
Did any conspiracy theorists say anything when Ireland were ppicking up all those woodenspoons in the 80's and 90's?

Well actually they did - if you had been around and reading the English papers. They were quite prevalent actually, saying "Dear Lord, they're dumb. They keep giving themselves that thing which they think is called Wôdan's Spoon. Nobody tell them, the eejits"

Also don't think th at the Provinces get easier groups than anyone else on average, some years it may seam easier but Leinster and Munster are both Tier 1 teams, ok Leinster have a good group this year but last years was horrible, Munster last year didn't get out of the group! Ulster have had Aironi for the last 2 years, but with Leicester and Clermont that doesn't makes an easy group.

The B+I Lions are also based in Dublin. Its all about tax concessions. Ireland doesn't tax sporting events. For instance, there is no VAT on match tickets in ROI for sporting events, but there is in Northern Ireland & UK.

So, in short, the IRB, ERC, B+I Lions are treated very nicely by the Irish Government.

As an aside, there was a piece on news last night about the Limerick/Shannon region developing itself as a sporting centre (similar idea to Financial Services Centre in Dublin). Lots of good things in the area for that - great river, lakes, Ger Hartman, UL, Munster Rugby, Coolmore stud, surfing, golf etc.

They said that a Heineken Cup match in Limerick is worth €10m to the local economy and has brought in €78m since the new stadium went up (2008) and that Munster Rugby 'the business' sustains 500 jobs in the area.

SecretFly wrote:

Kingshu wrote:
Did any conspiracy theorists say anything when Ireland were ppicking up all those woodenspoons in the 80's and 90's?

Well actually they did - if you had been around and reading the English papers. They were quite prevalent actually, saying "Dear Lord, they're dumb. They keep giving themselves that thing which they think is called Wôdan's Spoon. Nobody tell them, the eejits"

It was nice to win something in those days, it was 99 before we caught on that its a bad thing to win. so the IRB/IRFU (all one body) invited Italy to join and get it instead (smart move don't make yourself better thats to much work instead invite someone worse to join, thats easier).

You'd think with the number of woodenspoons we've gathered over the years, we'd do a lot more stirring now.

Sin é wrote:The B+I Lions are also based in Dublin. Its all about tax concessions. Ireland doesn't tax sporting events. For instance, there is no VAT on match tickets in ROI for sporting events, but there is in Northern Ireland & UK.

So, in short, the IRB, ERC, B+I Lions are treated very nicely by the Irish Government.

As an aside, there was a piece on news last night about the Limerick/Shannon region developing itself as a sporting centre (similar idea to Financial Services Centre in Dublin). Lots of good things in the area for that - great river, lakes, Ger Hartman, UL, Munster Rugby, Coolmore stud, surfing, golf etc.

They said that a Heineken Cup match in Limerick is worth €10m to the local economy and has brought in €78m since the new stadium went up (2008) and that Munster Rugby 'the business' sustains 500 jobs in the area.

Just as long as most of that proposed development isn't roads, ugly high-rise bland-box hotels, concrete, tar and more Private golf courses for the jet set. But like you say, it has all the topographical requirements for a diverse sporting playground and events hosting as long as they keep it mostly green and natural looking.

I think they are thinking more on the lines of training facilities etc. - you know the way teams, athletes to use as a training spot - its pretty much got everything.

For instance, Wales heading off to Poland for a camp, would head to Limerick instead. Attract world specialists like Ger Hartman, swimming coaches, golf coaches (some great courses in the area like Lahinch, Ballybunion etc) to move to Limerick.

Say, something like Ronan O'Gara/Paul O'Connell setting up a coaching academy in Limerick in conjunction with UL when they retire - that type of thing.

If the Euro is to be sustained in the medium-long term, there will have to be some kind of fiscal harmonisation.

The likelihood will be that the Doyle will have to rescind its relative tax benefits for global institutions to locate preferentially in Ireland (not to mention players' tax inducements to stay).

That may provide the IRB with the motivation to re-locate to International air hubs like London or Paris - or (most likely) Dubai.

Portnoy wrote: The likelihood will be that the Doyle will have to rescind its relative tax benefits for global institutions to locate preferentially in Ireland (not to mention players' tax inducements to stay).

These tax benefits are the last change the Irish Govt will make - I expect them to stay

Portnoy wrote:If the Euro is to be sustained in the medium-long term, there will have to be some kind of fiscal harmonisation.

The likelihood will be that the Doyle will have to rescind its relative tax benefits for global institutions to locate preferentially in Ireland (not to mention players' tax inducements to stay).

That may provide the IRB with the motivation to re-locate to International air hubs like London or Paris - or (most likely) Dubai.

Not too sure whether tax harmonisation would make any difference to sporting organisations like the IRB (not-for-profit). They are tax exempt.

All it means is that the Irish Goverment don't tax them at all - there are no preferential rates. Think that for a tournament like the world cup - the IRB are probably up to 20% better off from their earnings on the ticket sales alone. That is money that goes back into the sport around the world.

Why would the IRB want to move to Paris or London bearing in mind the carry-on with Bernard Lapasset & Beaumont recently? Considering they met in an airport hotel on the west cost of the US, maybe that is the place they should consider locating to for travel convenience.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Portnoy wrote: The likelihood will be that the Doyle will have to rescind its relative tax benefits for global institutions to locate preferentially in Ireland (not to mention players' tax inducements to stay).

These tax benefits are the last change the Irish Govt will make - I expect them to stay

Correct. Hopefully for everyone's sake, Sarkozy doesn't get re-elected and that will be the end of that.

What would Eric Cantona’s stance be on something like this I wonder…

Mickado wrote:What would Eric Cantona’s stance be on something like this I wonder…

When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea

Mickado wrote:What would Eric Cantona’s stance be on something like this I wonder…

Eric would know that you would not want to annoy the GAA in Ireland by wanting to tax sporting organisations. He knows he would not come out well out of that one.
Ireland should make Roy Keane Taoiseach.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Portnoy wrote: The likelihood will be that the Doyle will have to rescind its relative tax benefits for global institutions to locate preferentially in Ireland (not to mention players' tax inducements to stay).

These tax benefits are the last change the Irish Govt will make - I expect them to stay

The tax regime would have to be harmonised across the Euro-zone.

It would not be up to Ireland, Greece, Spain, Portugal, France etc.

It would be up to Germany who as backers of the whole edifice.

And you cannot expect them to support the single currency whilst individual partners de-stable the boat by acting independently.

The whole concept was based on political aspirations and all over Europe, countries cooked their books to falsify their credentials to join the club. Thankfully (in retrospect) the UK stayed out.

And may we never.

Portnoy wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Portnoy wrote: The likelihood will be that the Doyle will have to rescind its relative tax benefits for global institutions to locate preferentially in Ireland (not to mention players' tax inducements to stay).

These tax benefits are the last change the Irish Govt will make - I expect them to stay

The tax regime would have to be harmonised across the Euro-zone.

It would not be up to Ireland, Greece, Spain, Portugal, France etc.

In theory yes but in reality the individual members, including Ireland, have very strong cards to play. A referendum in any of these countries on any new rules would throw the Eurozone into further crisis. I would be very surprised indeed if Ireland give up their tax concessions without a fight.

Portnoy wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Portnoy wrote: The likelihood will be that the Doyle will have to rescind its relative tax benefits for global institutions to locate preferentially in Ireland (not to mention players' tax inducements to stay).

These tax benefits are the last change the Irish Govt will make - I expect them to stay

The tax regime would have to be harmonised across the Euro-zone.

It would not be up to Ireland, Greece, Spain, Portugal, France etc.

It would be up to Germany who as backers of the whole edifice.

And you cannot expect them to support the single currency whilst individual partners de-stable the boat by acting independently.

The whole concept was based on political aspirations and all over Europe, countries cooked their books to falsify their credentials to join the club. Thankfully (in retrospect) the UK stayed out.

Sorry that isn't true - there is no requirement in the EU to harmonize corporation tax. They have not done so since the Euro started and there is nothing in the recent accord to change that.

Also Ireland didn't, unlike the Med countries 'cook the books'. Their crises was 99% a banking one - the Govt finances were in decent shape.

But that is the current accord.

It is there - as plain as your face that the EZ is a house of cards buit on sand foundations. Germany (and international speculators) will expect a huge shift of fiscal harmonisation to stave off a total collapse.

The reality is that many golden eggs will have to be scrambled.

Its France who are pushing for the Tax harminisation, not the germans. As the non Euro EU member states like the UK and Switzerland will not be obliged to harmonise their tax its a bit of a red herring.

Ireland will not agree so it won't happen.

Corporation Tax Harminisation is not on the Agenda from the recent accord.

Countries will be allowed a level of elbow room provided they meet debt and borrowing targets. Withing those constraints Ireland will retain their low corporation tax.

geoff998rugby wrote:Corporation Tax Harminisation is not on the Agenda from the recent accord.

Countries will be allowed a level of elbow room provided they meet debt and borrowing targets. Withing those constraints Ireland will retain their low corporation tax.

And it was generally agreed that the accord was inadequate to stave off a run on the Euro in the medium/long term.

It's a precarious position that the EZ is in. I cannot see it surviving with its current membership and without great harmonisation of taxation.
There will be some local variations in local taxes just as in the US$ - Federal and State.

We'll see in the next 6-9 months.

But remember that whilst Irish Corporation tax remains relatively low, the slack has to be taken up by the populace.

Portnoy wrote:
But remember that whilst Irish Corporation tax remains relatively low, the slack has to be taken up by the populace.

Yes it does, and it will be, in the belief that low Corporation tax is essential to protect jobs.

Harminisation of taxes isn't central to keeping the Euro afloat it is getting control of debt and providing a country does that they will be allowed some wriggle room

Portnoy wrote:
It's a precarious position that the EZ is in. I cannot see it surviving with its current membership and without great harmonisation of taxation.

Harmonisation of tax is not the issue. The issue is the huge sovereign dept and the liquidity of the banks in a number of the EU countries, most notably Italy and France and maintaining the condfidence of the markets that they can manage this dept.

So long as Germany and the speculators agree.

The lack of wide controls, book-cooking and national trade cycle differences have been fundamental flaws in the project.

The much-maligned Gordon Brown understood this only too well - which is the reason why the UK remains outside the club.

Sleep E-Z.

Portnoy wrote:So long as Germany and the speculators agree.

The lack of wide controls, book-cooking and national trade cycle differences have been fundamental flaws in the project.

There has always been rules regarding spending and dept its just they weren't being follow or enforced. Probably because France and Germany weren't adhering to them either.

The taxation issue is neither here nor there, the biggest flaw is that the weaker economies don't have the control over their own currencies. The fact the UK has been able to do QE and control their own interest rates has saved their bacon so far but if the EZ fails then we're all fecked regardless of what currency we are using.

roddersm wrote:Its France who are pushing for the Tax harminisation, not the germans. As the non Euro EU member states like the UK and Switzerland will not be obliged to harmonise their tax its a bit of a red herring.

Ireland will not agree so it won't happen.

France may be pushing for tax harmonisation, but (how many times do I have to repeat this?) it is the BundesRepublik and the greedy speculators are the only players in the room.

Oh - and the UK is in the EU. They joined in 1973 at which time Ireland piggy-backed on the opportunity.

roddersm wrote:

Portnoy wrote:So long as Germany and the speculators agree.

The lack of wide controls, book-cooking and national trade cycle differences have been fundamental flaws in the project.

There has always been rules regarding spending and dept its just they weren't being follow or enforced. Probably because France and Germany weren't adhering to them either.

The taxation issue is neither here nor there, the biggest flaw is that the weaker economies don't have the control over their own currencies. The fact the UK has been able to do QE and control their own interest rates has saved their bacon so far but if the EZ fails then we're all fecked regardless of what currency we are using.

That we can all agree on.