The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

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The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 9:35 am

First topic message reminder :

I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them. 

So, the Pro12, how could it move forward, for me there are one or two bones of contention for me, and that is the refereeing situation we find ourselves in, and the two Italian sides, firstly I will speak about the Italian sides, they have been here for a few years now and they are getting worse, now whether that is because of the fall out with the CC or not, the simple fact is they are not adding much to the league other than a banker five points when they travel and the odd banana skin when teams travel to play them. I would not like to see the Italians cut adrift, but at the same time they seriously need to up their game, at the moment they look as if they do not want to be here and are just waiting for the season to end, recent results have reflected this. I also think, that at the moment a place in the top tier of Europe is a waste for them, they will never win that competition with the state they are in at the moment and I think it would be far more beneficial for them to play in the second tier where they would have a better chance of picking up results and giving them more confidence. Jonathan Davies was pretty scathing about them on Scrum V on Sunday night:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36068740

Now I do not agree with him when it comes to ditching the Italians, but he does make a good point. Something needs to be seriously looked at when we are considering the two Italian teams, what would you suggest ?

Secondly I will talk about our refereeing situation, I am very uncomfortable with the status quo we find ourselves in at the moment when it comes to the referees, I am not comfortable that we are in a situation where the unions employ the referees AND the players. This leads to calls of potential bias, and the union controlled teams bringing their own refs with them, I think the referees should be employed by a central organisation, not the unions, and I think that the central organisation should be the league itself, the money the unions pay the refs should be payed to the league and then the league should have direct control over the referees. The league should then have a remit of how the refs should perform, and all the refs should be singing from the same hymn sheet, not that of their respective unions. Only when something like this happens will we see an improvement.

I would also like to talk about an article I read on WOL that Jeremy Guscott scratched upon, and states that we should be improving our brand of rugby to be able to compete with the French and English, also he has pointed out that because our CC players are restricted to the amount of games they can play, they hamper the teams involved, this I agree with, and I would rather we rested our players for Europe and played them more in the league. Guscott says that because there is no relegation from the Pro12 then there should be no excuses for us not playing a better brand of rugby. Anyway here's the link if anyone is interested:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-legend-tells-welsh-regions-11202285

Do you agree with Jeremy Guscott ?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by Munchkin on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:06 am

SecretFly wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
SecretFly wrote:?

The first officially sanctioned experiment into the plausibility of Biblical miracles?

Wow....Pro12 really is trying to up those Broadcasting contracts!  This is Show Biz!

Two Divisions eh??? -   Of what?  

The Loaves and the Fishes.

There are only about nine reasonably functioning teams in the present Pro12 (at a stretch) - and they all moan all the time about not having enough of this and not being enough of that.  So to improve the moans and turn them to smiles, we're going to add another division of moaners?  

Where are the teams going to come from?  Competitive ones, that is?

I would love to see a 2nd division, but I didn't think we would see one for a few years yet, if ever. Not convinced, but intrigued.

Yes.  But seriously - where would these sides come from?  For example, would us Irish have any?  If so, where would they come from?  College sides?  Munster Province for Division 1 and Munster Eagles for division 2 - both under Erasmus?  I don't know where the quality would be for a second division that had sights on going up a division given that the quality in the top right now struggles to sustain itself in professionalism


Haven't a notion where they would come from. Romania and Georgia could maybe provide one each. Enisei? The travel would be a nightmare, and expensive, although their jets are powered by cheap vodka, so maybe not too much. London Welsh and Scottish, but that would be opening a can of worms. The Irish can't provide the Provinces B teams, otherwise we would end up playing against ourselves.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by SecretFly on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:10 am

Even three dud seasons in Europe and then a bounce back wouldn't be an unreasonable return given that it was only Our League that had to change dramatically to suit the whims of our more powerful League rivals.

The gloom is too gloomy.  The future happens regardless and it will.  But to say a few dud years in Europe is the disaster predicted by the changes is much too easy a surrender. And if we lie down emotionally, we'll be where they always wanted us to be.

I see lots of hope.  Perhaps a few of the more established Pro12 sides will indeed have a few more bleak years yet as they readjust the mechanisms and strategies to cope.... but that only improves the competitiveness within the League itself (or should if coaches and players have the drive to make it so). Other sides have the opportunity to push on and become stronger (Connacht being an example)

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 8:21 am

123456789 wrote:I'm not sure the refereeing issue is as big as it is made out to be, yes the standard is poor but it's hard to imagine anyone not attending a match on account of general refereeing standards in the league.

You do not need to imagine it, at the start of the season, Munster came to Swansea to play Ospreys, Dudley Phillips was the ref, he had a shocker and let Munster do what they wanted. I was there and actually saw people getting up five minutes before the end saying they have had enough of the refereeing performance and that they would not waste their money anymore. 

People were leaving and not coming back because of the referees, I have been to every Welsh ground numerous times to watch the regions, and people are getting fed up, and they are fed up of the Irish refs, but that might be because the regions always seem to get an Irish ref in charge of them, but that is the reality. I will say it on here, as I see it first hand, but I get called all sorts on here for saying it, but the reality is, the refereeing standards are killing our game, and the cause for potential bias is not helping either.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 8:53 am

Why are reffing standard viewed so poorly in the Pro 12? Irish refs, Owens all get abuse for not being good enough. When it comes to internationals they look comparable to others so higher standards of fans?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 8:57 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:When it comes to internationals they look comparable to others so higher standards of fans?

You can honestly say that you enjoy an international game reffed by Clancey ? Also, there are other reasons that I could go into regarding this but I do not want to get in an argument on here.

The fact of the matter is though, the current situation we find ourselves in with the referees in the Pro12 is not viable, and something needs to change so that we can get away from all the issues surrounding it, and it is not just down to the refereeing standards.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:02 am

LordDowlais wrote:
123456789 wrote:I'm not sure the refereeing issue is as big as it is made out to be, yes the standard is poor but it's hard to imagine anyone not attending a match on account of general refereeing standards in the league.

You do not need to imagine it, at the start of the season, Munster came to Swansea to play Ospreys, Dudley Phillips was the ref, he had a shocker and let Munster do what they wanted. I was there and actually saw people getting up five minutes before the end saying they have had enough of the refereeing performance and that they would not waste their money anymore. 

People were leaving and not coming back because of the referees, I have been to every Welsh ground numerous times to watch the regions, and people are getting fed up, and they are fed up of the Irish refs, but that might be because the regions always seem to get an Irish ref in charge of them, but that is the reality. I will say it on here, as I see it first hand, but I get called all sorts on here for saying it, but the reality is, the refereeing standards are killing our game, and the cause for potential bias is not helping either.

You keep seeing it but there are people at every game saying this? They are actually at the game and they are leaving 5 mins from the end? Just like at every game yet week after week, game after game the people are there, maybe when they get home and rewatch some of the things they complained about they are realising the were wrong

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:04 am

Not every game , but thats more to do with the teams on display! I just think the standard is pretty similar across the board. You'll never get away from the bias issues whoever pays them. Look at the recent hoo ha in the footy and a Leicester fan ref being taken away from a Spurs game. Managers like Wenger have come out and said it's a stupid decision to bow to potential bias, they are pros etc. Look hard enough and there's always something to find.

I do think it would make sense to get some rotation in refs to other leagues more often, both in NH and across to SH. Would help both players and refs.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:09 am

Refereeing standards do need to improve but perhaps an even bigger issue is Scotland and Italy don't pull their weight.
Only one referee on the active list from the two between them.
There should be punishments for this so they get their fingers out.
Hire referees from England and France to cover Welsh v Ireland matches and charge the cost to the those 2 Unions.

The most competitive of the 3 NH leagues, which I believe has nothing to do with the change in European qualification.
Just the good groundwork at Connacht now bearing fruit under Lam and Solomon has improved Edinburgh based upon a formidable front row.
That has meant those two teams can now compete with the big boys of the last few years.

Crowds, overall, continue to climb and ignoring, the oftencheap as chips, show case matches Ulster, for example, are the 2nd best supported team in the NH (after Leicester).
Sky being sole TV rights would help bring focus - what we have now is a bit of a dogs breakfast and not speaking the three Gaelic languages (well I can order a pint in Irish !) makes those games less attractive to the casual viewer.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:10 am

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
123456789 wrote:I'm not sure the refereeing issue is as big as it is made out to be, yes the standard is poor but it's hard to imagine anyone not attending a match on account of general refereeing standards in the league.

You do not need to imagine it, at the start of the season, Munster came to Swansea to play Ospreys, Dudley Phillips was the ref, he had a shocker and let Munster do what they wanted. I was there and actually saw people getting up five minutes before the end saying they have had enough of the refereeing performance and that they would not waste their money anymore. 

People were leaving and not coming back because of the referees, I have been to every Welsh ground numerous times to watch the regions, and people are getting fed up, and they are fed up of the Irish refs, but that might be because the regions always seem to get an Irish ref in charge of them, but that is the reality. I will say it on here, as I see it first hand, but I get called all sorts on here for saying it, but the reality is, the refereeing standards are killing our game, and the cause for potential bias is not helping either.

You keep seeing it but there are people at every game saying this? They are actually at the game and they are leaving 5 mins from the end? Just like at every game yet week after week, game after game the people are there, maybe when they get home and rewatch some of the things they complained about they are realising the were wrong

There tend to be a fair few fans at PYS who get up and go about 5-10 mins from the end (less when there is only one score in it) whether we are winning or losing, purely to get to their car first and beat the rush. I assume that there are similar at most stadiums around the world and in most sports too. Sometimes as they leave they grumble about the ref, or about the coaches etc, the same as we all do.

Also I have to put my hand up and say I am one of those who gets irate at the match, and then re-watch the game (my dad records all the home games, and we watch them as soon as we get in) and have a bit more of an understanding of why something was allowed. That said there are also, probably just as many occasions, when we get home and put the match on, and say "oh hump me, it was even more obvious to him, he's looking right at it".

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:11 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not every game , but thats more to do with the teams on display! I just think the standard is pretty similar across the board. You'll never get away from the bias issues whoever pays them. Look at the recent hoo ha in the footy and a Leicester fan ref being taken away from a Spurs game. Managers like Wenger have come out and said it's a stupid decision to bow to potential bias, they are pros etc. Look hard enough and there's always something to find.

I do think it would make sense to get some rotation in refs to other leagues more often, both in NH and across to SH. Would help both players and refs.

Best bit with that was he isn't even a Leicester fan, he lives in Leicestershire and supports Bristol City

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:14 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
There tend to be a fair few fans at PYS who get up and go about 5-10 mins from the end (less when there is only one score in it) whether we are winning or losing, purely to get to their car first and beat the rush.  I assume that there are similar at most stadiums around the world and in most sports too.  Sometimes as they leave they grumble about the ref, or about the coaches etc, the same as we all do.

Also I have to put my hand up and say I am one of those who gets irate at the match, and then re-watch the game (my dad records all the home games, and we watch them as soon as we get in) and have a bit more of an understanding of why something was allowed.  That said there are also, probably just as many occasions, when we get home and put the match on, and say "oh hump me, it was even more obvious to him, he's looking right at it".  

It happened with Ulster fans against Connacht a few weeks ago, I heard a few moans about the ref but Leinster next Saturday sold out last week maybe that's to intimidate the ref though Whistle

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:15 am

LordDowlais wrote: You do not need to imagine it, at the start of the season, Munster came to Swansea to play Ospreys, Dudley Phillips was the ref, he had a shocker and let Munster do what they wanted. I was there and actually saw people getting up five minutes before the end saying they have had enough of the refereeing performance and that they would not waste their money anymore. 

People were leaving and not coming back because of the referees, I have been to every Welsh ground numerous times to watch the regions, and people are getting fed up, and they are fed up of the Irish refs, but that might be because the regions always seem to get an Irish ref in charge of them, but that is the reality. I will say it on here, as I see it first hand, but I get called all sorts on here for saying it, but the reality is, the refereeing standards are killing our game, and the cause for potential bias is not helping either.

Lord Dowlais people in Ireland say exactly the same about Welsh referees we get here - absolutely no difference.
The reason you see lots of Irish referees and we see lots of Welsh referees is for the reason I gave above - only one active referee from Scotland and Italy together.

If they made a contribution we could drop the likes of Hodges and Phillips who are both absolute jokes.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:29 am

geoff999rugby wrote:If they made a contribution we could drop the likes of Hodges and Phillips who are both absolute jokes.

I agree, they are both very frustrating refs, and not up to he standard we need, the difference is, they are not employed by the same organisation as the players, it's things like this we need to move away from mostly.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:33 am

LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:If they made a contribution we could drop the likes of Hodges and Phillips who are both absolute jokes.

I agree, they are both very frustrating refs, and not up to he standard we need, the difference is, they are not employed by the same organisation as the players, it's things like this we need to move away from mostly.

picard

Because suddenly the standards will improve? You are creating issues where there isn't any Rolling Eyes How many of the complaints you say you've heard have been about union run refs or just urine poor decisions?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:35 am

marty2086 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Not every game , but thats more to do with the teams on display! I just think the standard is pretty similar across the board. You'll never get away from the bias issues whoever pays them. Look at the recent hoo ha in the footy and a Leicester fan ref being taken away from a Spurs game. Managers like Wenger have come out and said it's a stupid decision to bow to potential bias, they are pros etc. Look hard enough and there's always something to find.

I do think it would make sense to get some rotation in refs to other leagues more often, both in NH and across to SH. Would help both players and refs.

Best bit with that was he isn't even a Leicester fan, he lives in Leicestershire and supports Bristol City

Ha, even worse! Silly situation but fans like to lay the blame away from their clubs. If Spurs don't win the league it won't be because of refs.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by 21st Century Schizoid Man on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:35 am

Lets face it there really are only 2 refs up to standard - Owens and Whitehouse. The rest are totally abysmal. Mitrea's woeful performance in Dublin confirmed he is down there with the worst of them.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:43 am

marty2086 wrote:Because suddenly the standards will improve? You are creating issues where there isn't any How many of the complaints you say you've heard have been about union run refs or just urine poor decisions?


Oh here we go. Rolling Eyes 

Firstly I am not creating issues, I am forever hearing complaints about how the Irish bring their own refs with them, and if some of my countrymen were honest they would say the same on here, well, the ones who actually go to the games would, as they would be hearing the exact same thing. 

Look I am not saying it is fact that union controlled refs and teams are in cahoots with each other, but the accusation is there, because we have been put in this position. We need to get away from it. The Pro12 is the only competition in Europe that has this issue, it is not allowed in any other sports.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:45 am

marty2086 wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
There tend to be a fair few fans at PYS who get up and go about 5-10 mins from the end (less when there is only one score in it) whether we are winning or losing, purely to get to their car first and beat the rush.  I assume that there are similar at most stadiums around the world and in most sports too.  Sometimes as they leave they grumble about the ref, or about the coaches etc, the same as we all do.

Also I have to put my hand up and say I am one of those who gets irate at the match, and then re-watch the game (my dad records all the home games, and we watch them as soon as we get in) and have a bit more of an understanding of why something was allowed.  That said there are also, probably just as many occasions, when we get home and put the match on, and say "oh hump me, it was even more obvious to him, he's looking right at it".  

It happened with Ulster fans against Connacht a few weeks ago, I heard a few moans about the ref but Leinster next Saturday sold out last week maybe that's to intimidate the ref though Whistle

I don't think any fans try to intimidate the ref. I think that it is one of those things where one fan grumbles that the ref is ignoring offsides, for instance, and then at the next ruck more people notice that the opposition are very close to offside, and the ref doesn't do anything. That then leads to more grumbles, and at the next ruck the opposition are right tight on the offside line again, so the ref must be turning a blind eye for his own purposes. And then the next time you get that ref, you remember he was the one that ignored the offsides all game long last time, and the benefit of the doubt isn't given to him, and the first time he misses something, the attitude of 'here we go again' kicks in.

But I do believe if people are walking away from supporting their team because of a ref then you need to question how much of a fan they really are.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by profitius on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:48 am

profitius wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Expansion to two divisions will happen in the next 12 months.


Where did you hear that, PH?


I found an article about it that suggests Martin Anayi has been given the go ahead to make changes. http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/guinness-pro12/rugby-chiefs-ponder-major-revamp-to-enhance-quality-of-pro12-34621908.html

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:48 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Because suddenly the standards will improve? You are creating issues where there isn't any How many of the complaints you say you've heard have been about union run refs or just urine poor decisions?


Oh here we go. Rolling Eyes 

Firstly I am not creating issues, I am forever hearing complaints about how the Irish bring their own refs with them, and if some of my countrymen were honest they would say the same on here, well, the ones who actually go to the games would, as they would be hearing the exact same thing. 

Look I am not saying it is fact that union controlled refs and teams are in cahoots with each other, but the accusation is there, because we have been put in this position. We need to get away from it. The Pro12 is the only competition in Europe that has this issue, it is not allowed in any other sports.

You are putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5, from that phrase bringing their own ref with them. It'd be the case if the refs were union controlled or not so its nothing to do with who pays who but their nationality, so yes you are creating an issue where there isn't one.

It also ignores the fact that for games in Wales its the WRU appointing them

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:50 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:But I do believe if people are walking away from supporting their team because of a ref then you need to question how much of a fan they really are.

Lets be honest SS. It's not the doe hard fans teams need to worry about, it is the newcomers and as much as would hate to say it, fair weather fans. These are the one's who turn into die hard fans, but they are not getting that chance as they feel short changed at matches, for the exact same reasons you have given in your reply to marty with the off side issues.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by profitius on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:51 am

It's not the refs that are the real problem. It's the b!tching and moaning about them.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:51 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Because suddenly the standards will improve? You are creating issues where there isn't any How many of the complaints you say you've heard have been about union run refs or just urine poor decisions?


Oh here we go. Rolling Eyes 

Firstly I am not creating issues, I am forever hearing complaints about how the Irish bring their own refs with them, and if some of my countrymen were honest they would say the same on here, well, the ones who actually go to the games would, as they would be hearing the exact same thing. 


Look I am not saying it is fact that union controlled refs and teams are in cahoots with each other, but the accusation is there, because we have been put in this position. We need to get away from it. The Pro12 is the only competition in Europe that has this issue, it is not allowed in any other sports.

I remember hearing it for the first time a few seasons ago, when Dudley Phillips (I believe) was supposed to have arrived at the stadium on the Munster team bus.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:54 am

marty2086 wrote:You are putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5, from that phrase bringing their own ref with them. It'd be the case if the refs were union controlled or not so its nothing to do with who pays who but their nationality, so yes you are creating an issue where there isn't one.

It also ignores the fact that for games in Wales its the WRU appointing them

marty, I am not putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5, please do not insult my intelligence, I know what I am seeing and hearing, and I know what people are talking about when they complain. I witness it first hand.

Secondly, are you sure the WRU appoint the refs for games in Wales, or is it the Pro12 ?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:54 am

Been to a fair few games this season at Donny Knights, quite laughable what fans will moan about. Quite a lot of the time it comes from them not knowing the rules or mistaking what the ref is actually penalising.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 9:58 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Been to a fair few games this season at Donny Knights, quite laughable what fans will moan about. Quite a lot of the time it comes from them not knowing the rules or mistaking what the ref is actually penalising.


I understand this, but people in the Pro12 understand what is going on with union controlled teams and refs, and they complain about it, whether they are right or not, it will then influence the less informed, and it does affect things.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:02 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You are putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5, from that phrase bringing their own ref with them. It'd be the case if the refs were union controlled or not so its nothing to do with who pays who but their nationality, so yes you are creating an issue where there isn't one.

It also ignores the fact that for games in Wales its the WRU appointing them

marty, I am not putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5, please do not insult my intelligence, I know what I am seeing and hearing, and I know what people are talking about when they complain. I witness it first hand.

Secondly, are you sure the WRU appoint the refs for games in Wales, or is it the Pro12 ?

You just said they complain about bringing their own refs, no mention of the unions, payments or colleagues

And the home union is responsible for appointing the officials for the games in their jurisdiction

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:05 am

Oh I understand that people are affected by those around them. Just think a lot of the time they're moaning about nothing or have no clue in general. There's mistakes in all games if they go for your team there's less moaning by some, laughable! Just adding this to say there will always be those who moan about refs, no matter what especially when we're talking fair weather fans (people who don't follow rugby that closely).

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:13 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Oh I understand that people are affected by those around them. Just think a lot of the time they're moaning about nothing or have no clue in general. There's mistakes in all games if they go for your team there's less moaning by some, laughable! Just adding this to say there will always be those who moan about refs, no matter what especially when we're talking fair weather fans (people who don't follow rugby that closely).

I think die hard fans are the worst at times, they can't see reason and think the ref is in the wrong even when theres irrefutable evidence in front of them.

Some do it as habit too, they complain about refs that much that they just end up complaining for the sake of it, not that anyone on here would do that

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:25 am

I pick apart refs performance after the event as much as anyone but there's very few times I think they're been below standard. Couple of examples last year, perhaps 2 years now, where there were some who actually didn't know the rules which is pretty inexcusable but most of the time they are making judgments with fine lines.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by wayne on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:25 am

I'm not in the camp that it is only Irish Refs that are the problem, but, it was said above that when Welsh teams go to Ireland we take our Refs, that is normally true, yet when we played Connacht a month or so ago we had Clownshoes, IIRC correctly there were 2 Irish Provinces playing in Italy with WELSH referees in charge, why couldn't Clownshoes have changed with one of them, and IMO he cost us 2 match points when he agreed with the Irish appointed TMO for a completed tackle, last Friday we played Treviso and David Wilkinson was the Ref, he again was useless allowing many errors, including a penalty try that should have been awarded to us when a player came into a maul on the outside we then turned the maul and this player was totally on the wrong side, when we broke off our player was held up over the line by the same player, it should have been a penalty try and a yellow card. Also during the game there were 2 occasions when we had players tackled, that were actually held, the 2nd one was against Eli Walker and we went on to score a try, on both occasions it should have been Penalties AGAINST US.

There are many incompetent Referees in the 3 NH Leagues, it is not confined to our League, and something serious has to be done about this problem.

Let me finally add I will not be a very happy bunny if that decision out in Galway stops us qualifying for next seasons RCC, and the same can be said for very many of our fans.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:32 am

OK, what about like what scarletspiderman touched upon, where Dudley Phillips traveled with the Munster squad to the match, I know it is convenient, but is it professional ? 

Things like this does not help matters, even though the refs and teams are all employed by the same organisation, surely they should be making an effort to try and look impartial off the field.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by munkian on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:34 am

I think EVERY game should have a TMO otherwise many refs are just influenced by the home crowds.




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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by munkian on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:35 am

LordDowlais wrote:OK, what about like what scarletspiderman touched upon, where Dudley Phillips traveled with the Munster squad to the match, I know it is convenient, but is it professional ? 

Things like this does not help matters, even though the refs and teams are all employed by the same organisation, surely they should be making an effort to try and look impartial off the field.

Its a strange one where you a playing a match and the opponents and the ref are paid by the same company. Would never happen in football.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:37 am

wayne wrote:Things like this does not help matters, even though the refs and teams are all employed by the same organisation, surely they should be making an effort to try and look impartial off the field.

Imagine if it is the difference between Munster qualifying and Ospreys qualifying, I can only imagine the outbursts from the fans.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:38 am

munkian wrote:Its a strange one where you a playing a match and the opponents and the ref are paid by the same company. Would never happen in football.

Never mind football, I cannot think of another sport where it happens, or competition where it is like this for that matter.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by wayne on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:42 am

LordDowlais wrote:
wayne wrote:Things like this does not help matters, even though the refs and teams are all employed by the same organisation, surely they should be making an effort to try and look impartial off the field.

Imagine if it is the difference between Munster qualifying and Ospreys qualifying, I can only imagine the outbursts from the fans.
Lord, I don't know where you managed to get that quote, but I don't believe it is mine and not in my last post.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:45 am

sorry wayne, I was replying to this one:-

"Let me finally add I will not be a very happy bunny if that decision out in Galway stops us qualifying for next seasons RCC, and the same can be said for very many of our fans."

and my reply- Imagine if it is the difference between Munster qualifying and Ospreys qualifying, I can only imagine the outbursts from the fans.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:49 am

Do people in general view Munster and Leinster as the same team with same individual goals? Would one deliberately throw a game, grant bonus points if it benefitted the other?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:51 am

LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:If they made a contribution we could drop the likes of Hodges and Phillips who are both absolute jokes.

I agree, they are both very frustrating refs, and not up to he standard we need, the difference is, they are not employed by the same organisation as the players, it's things like this we need to move away from mostly.

Irrelevant - the issues are 2 fold.

1. Overall standard caused in large part because Scotland and Italy don't pull their weight

2. We see a large number of Welsh v Irish matches being referred by Welsh and Irish referees - the solution to which is solve point 1.

Who employs referees will not and does not need to change. If the above is resolved so all referees are from a neutral organization the point becomes irrelevant.
You have spotted a legitimate cause for concern and come up with a wrong headed solution - if all Unions provided equal input there would not be a problem.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:53 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Do people in general view Munster and Leinster as the same team with same individual goals? Would one deliberately throw a game, grant bonus points if it benefitted the other?

I assume this is a joke

Only someone who doesn't have a clue about Irish rugby could even consider this.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:53 am

LordDowlais wrote:OK, what about like what scarletspiderman touched upon, where Dudley Phillips traveled with the Munster squad to the match, I know it is convenient, but is it professional ? 

Things like this does not help matters, even though the refs and teams are all employed by the same organisation, surely they should be making an effort to try and look impartial off the field.

He is supposed to have travelled with them, just like Leighton Hodges is supposed to have told Connacht he'd get them back for bad parking spots or something ridiculous like that nothing more than unsubstantiated rumours

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:54 am

LordDowlais wrote:
munkian wrote:Its a strange one where you a playing a match and the opponents and the ref are paid by the same company. Would never happen in football.

Never mind football, I cannot think of another sport where it happens, or competition where it is like this for that matter.

Errrmmm Super Rugby

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:55 am

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Lets face it there really are only 2 refs up to standard - Owens and Whitehouse.   The rest are totally abysmal.    Mitrea's woeful performance in Dublin confirmed he is down there with the worst of them.  


One bad game doesn't make for a bad referee - I've seen Owens and Barnes have howler - Mitrea is a decent referee.
So is Clancy who has improved in recent years and is now ranked alongside Barnes and Owens as one of the three senior referees from Britain and Ireland

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:56 am

marty2086 wrote:He is supposed to have travelled with them, just like Leighton Hodges is supposed to have told Connacht he'd get them back for bad parking spots or something ridiculous like that nothing more than unsubstantiated rumours

How are the two points the same ?

One is a fact, Dudley Phillips DID travel with the Munster squad, he was seen getting off the bus.

One is a rumour, nobody knows Leighton Hodges said that.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:57 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:He is supposed to have travelled with them, just like Leighton Hodges is supposed to have told Connacht he'd get them back for bad parking spots or something ridiculous like that nothing more than unsubstantiated rumours

How are the two points the same ?

One is a fact, Dudley Phillips DID travel with the Munster squad, he was seen getting off the bus.

One is a rumour, nobody knows Leighton Hodges said that.

Did you see him LD?

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:57 am

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:OK, what about like what scarletspiderman touched upon, where Dudley Phillips traveled with the Munster squad to the match, I know it is convenient, but is it professional ? 

Things like this does not help matters, even though the refs and teams are all employed by the same organisation, surely they should be making an effort to try and look impartial off the field.

He is supposed to have travelled with them, just like Leighton Hodges is supposed to have told Connacht he'd get them back for bad parking spots or something ridiculous like that nothing more than unsubstantiated rumours

To balance this up when Irish teams play at home to Welsh teams in the majority of cases the referee is Welsh.
I would be very surprised if the norm was not for them to travel over on the same plane.

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by munkian on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 10:58 am

Clownshoes one of the top 3 ? Jebus, I didn't realise things were that bad

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 11:00 am

marty2086 wrote:Did you see him LD?

Not personally no. But I remember the outrage, it was when the fans were all outside waiting for the teams to show up so that they could get photographs and autographs and selfies and the what not.

Dudley got off the Munster team coach when they turned up. Laugh

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 20 Apr 2016, 11:02 am

geoff999rugby wrote:To balance this up when Irish teams play at home to Welsh teams in the majority of cases the referee is Welsh.
I would be very surprised if the norm was not for them to travel over on the same plane.


Same plane perhaps, but same bus as well.....hmmmmmm chin  

That would imply that he was in the same hotel as well.. chin

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Re: The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

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