Warren Gatland: Big names will miss out on Wales selection in autumn- It's getting serious !!!!

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Warren Gatland: Big names will miss out on Wales selection in autumn- It's getting serious !!!! Empty Warren Gatland: Big names will miss out on Wales selection in autumn- It's getting serious !!!!

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 12:45 pm

So, he is starting to put his foot down. Apparently he has already told the players.

Warren Gatland has said some players will miss out on being selected for Wales' autumn internationals under the so-called Gatland's Law.

The rule means only three players who play outside Wales can be picked.

Robert Howley will deputise for Gatland, who will take charge of the 2017 British and Irish Lions tour to New Zealand.

"A couple of big names and big players are going to miss out in the autumn," Gatland said,

"That's going to be quite dramatic.

"Everyone's been questioning whether we're going to stick to that policy, and I can guarantee you that that's going to happen. The players have been informed."

Wales host Australia, Argentina, Japan and South Africa at Cardiff's Principality Stadium in November.

Jamie Roberts, George North, Rhys Priestland and Luke Charteris are among the players who play in England, while Leigh Halfpenny is with Toulon in France.

In August, 2014, the Welsh Rugby Union and Wales' four professional regions signed a £60m, six-year deal that settled a long-running dispute over the sport's future.

That deal included rules that mean players based outside Wales could be overlooked in favour of home-based talent.

The policy ruled no player based overseas should represent Wales, although they are able to make exceptions.

Wales' leading exiles v leading Wales-based rivals (as at 25 August, 2016)

BACKS Full-back: Leigh Halfpenny (Toulon) v Liam Williams (Scarlets) Wing: George North (Northampton) v Alex Cuthbert/Tom James (Cardiff Blues), Eli Walker (Ospreys) & Hallam Amos (Dragons) Centre: Jamie Roberts v Jonathan Davies/Scott Williams (Scarlets) & Tyler Morgan (Newport Gwent Dragons) Fly-half: Rhys Priestland (Bath) & James Hook (Gloucester) v Dan Biggar (Ospreys)/Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues)/Rhys Patchell (Scarlets).

FORWARDS Tight-head prop: Tomas Francis (Exeter) & Aaron Jarvis (Clermont Auvergne) v Samson Lee (Scarlets) Lock: Luke Charteris (Bath) v Alun Wyn Jones & Bradley Davies (Ospreys)/Jake Ball (Scarlets) Back-row: Taulupe Faletau (Bath) v James King (Ospreys), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester) v Josh Turnbull (Cardiff Blues).

Do you reckon he will stick to his guns ?


Last edited by LordDowlais on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 4:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Welly on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 1:03 pm

I will believe it when i see it.

On paper it should be
Halfpenny
North
Faletau

TBF i would say
Halfpenny V L.Williams - tie (But will Halfpenny stay fit?)
North V Cuthberts/James/Walker/Amos - Easy win for North
Roberts V Davies/Williams/Morgan - TBF I would take Davies and Williams not Morgan.
Priestland v Bigger/Patchell - IMO Bigger/Patchell
Hook V Anscombe - Anscombe
Francis & Jarvis V Lee - Lee
Charteris V AWJ/Davies/Ball - Charteris over Davies and Ball
Faletau V King - Easy win for Faletau
Moriarty V Turnbull - Moriarty but not by much.

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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 3:48 pm

Wow, it looks as though they are getting serious, George North might be the first casualty of Gatlands law:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/george-north-captured-gatlands-law-11859999

For those of you who do not like to click on the link:-

George North WILL be captured by Gatland's Law as he fails in dispute with the WRU.

The Wales winger was forced to appeal against the WRU's decision but that has been rejected.

George North will be relying on wildcard selection to continue his international career after failing with a formal appeal against so-called Gatland’s Law.

It has been unclear for months whether North would be captured by the law – or the WRU Senior Player Selection Policy as it is called – which allows Warren Gatland or Rob Howley to select only three non-Welsh-based players as wildcards.

North believed he would be exempt from needing a wildcard on the grounds that there was no offer on the table from a Welsh side when he penned his latest contract extension with Northampton.

But we have discovered his protest to the WRU has been rejected and when the union publishes the definitive list of stars captured by the ruling, expected before the end of this week, North’s name will be on it.

Only in the last 24 hours Gatland confirmed that there will be some ‘dramatic’ casualties brought about by the policy that has borne his name.

And the situation could become even more awkward if, as expected, second row Luke Charteris, another front-line player, falls into the same bracket as North.

Charteris’ position is still believed to be unresolved after he moved from Racing 92 to Bath for the start of this season. The former Dragons lock does not believe he should be captured by the ruling, but the WRU may yet see it differently.

With Jamie Roberts, Taulupe Faletau, Rhys Priestland and now North, all definitely captured, high profile selection casualties are assured this autumn. Charteris joining that group would exacerbate the conundrum further.

Uncertainty also surrounds how Exeter prop Tomas Francis and Clermont tighthead Aaron Jarvis stand in the equation.

A WRU spokesman told WalesOnline: “As we have always said, we are going to publish the Senior Player Selection Policy. However, all relevant parties need to be informed of our decisions before we do so.”

WRU chief executive Martyn Phillips made it clear as long ago as last December that what has become widely known as Gatland’s Law would bite at some stage.

Howley will have the dubious honour of dealing with the fall-out when he assumes control of the Wales team as head coach in November, with Gatland away on Lions duty.

The current exiles NOT at risk this season
Leigh Halfpenny - Both Cardiff Blues and the Scarlets wanted to bring the Lions full-back home to Wales, while Wasps were also on his trail, yet he opted to stay with Toulon. But he won’t be captured as the third year option was in his original contract.

Ross Moriarty - Not captured as his Gloucester deal pre-dates the Law. He will be out of contract next year though and is sure to be a prime target for a WRU dual deal, with the back rower already being linked with the Scarlets.

Owen Williams - Although the Scarlets wanted him back when he was out of contract last year, the fly-half is unaffected as he re-signed for Leicester just before the Law formally came into being.

Ian Evans - Still has ambitions to play for Wales and wouldn’t have to be a wildcard based on when he signed for Bristol. Has a chance to catch the eye now that he will be playing in the Premiership.

Richard Hibbard - Not captured, as he signed for Gloucester before the Law became active, but leaving the Ospreys for Kingsholm has coincided with him falling out of the Wales frame.

James Hook - Unaffected, again because of when he signed up at Kingsholm, but has now slipped right of the Test picture having become a fringe figure in recent years.

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Post by TightHEAD on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 4:31 pm

He'll backtrack as he always does.
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Post by majesticimperialman on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 4:51 pm

Those who miss out this autum, when Wales take a real beating will be back in the squad for the 6ns.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 4:58 pm

I can't see it, but Faletau is injured. So it could work - Roberts, Charteris and Halfpenny.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 12:10 am

Edit to the above, as I've also come across the WOL link elsewhere (usually skim over LD's constant fawning over that filth). So if that is correct then really it's only a choice of Faletau (if fit), Roberts, North, Charteris and Francis - Halfpenny and Moriarty are exempt and the rest are garbage. Not sure how badly injured Faletau is but I'm going to assume the worst for now. Roberts is our best centre but I get the feeling he could miss out; aside from the Scarlets pair there is also Ashley Beck, Cory Allen, Tyler Morgan and possibly Jack Dixon although I can't see Dix being within a realistic shout. Charteris and sadly Francis are a must, as is North who is our only decent wing.

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Post by Welly on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 9:43 am

Say Moriarty, Halfpenny and Owen Williams decided to move back to Wales (I feel the other 3 are prob past it) where would you want them to go?

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 9:47 am

Well Scarlets desperately need a good back-row player and Moriarty more than fits in at 6 or 8. Halfpenny would probably be a good fit back at the blues at wing or 15 and form part of a strong back 3. It's Dragons who really need a decent fly-half behind McLeod so I'd like Williams to come to us Smile. Ospreys look okay in all those positions but knowing them they'll be begging the WRU for all 3.

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Post by Seagultaf on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 10:27 am

LordDowlais wrote:Wow, it looks as though they are getting serious, George North might be the first casualty of Gatlands law:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/george-north-captured-gatlands-law-11859999

For those of you who do not like to click on the link:-

George North WILL be captured by Gatland's Law as he fails in dispute with the WRU.

The Wales winger was forced to appeal against the WRU's decision but that has been rejected.

George North will be relying on wildcard selection to continue his international career after failing with a formal appeal against so-called Gatland’s Law.

It has been unclear for months whether North would be captured by the law – or the WRU Senior Player Selection Policy as it is called – which allows Warren Gatland or Rob Howley to select only three non-Welsh-based players as wildcards.

North believed he would be exempt from needing a wildcard on the grounds that there was no offer on the table from a Welsh side when he penned his latest contract extension with Northampton.

But we have discovered his protest to the WRU has been rejected and when the union publishes the definitive list of stars captured by the ruling, expected before the end of this week, North’s name will be on it.

Only in the last 24 hours Gatland confirmed that there will be some ‘dramatic’ casualties brought about by the policy that has borne his name.

And the situation could become even more awkward if, as expected, second row Luke Charteris, another front-line player, falls into the same bracket as North.

Charteris’ position is still believed to be unresolved after he moved from Racing 92 to Bath for the start of this season. The former Dragons lock does not believe he should be captured by the ruling, but the WRU may yet see it differently.

With Jamie Roberts, Taulupe Faletau, Rhys Priestland and now North, all definitely captured, high profile selection casualties are assured this autumn. Charteris joining that group would exacerbate the conundrum further.

Uncertainty also surrounds how Exeter prop Tomas Francis and Clermont tighthead Aaron Jarvis stand in the equation.

A WRU spokesman told WalesOnline: “As we have always said, we are going to publish the Senior Player Selection Policy. However, all relevant parties need to be informed of our decisions before we do so.”

WRU chief executive Martyn Phillips made it clear as long ago as last December that what has become widely known as Gatland’s Law would bite at some stage.

Howley will have the dubious honour of dealing with the fall-out when he assumes control of the Wales team as head coach in November, with Gatland away on Lions duty.

The current exiles NOT at risk this season
Leigh Halfpenny - Both Cardiff Blues and the Scarlets wanted to bring the Lions full-back home to Wales, while Wasps were also on his trail, yet he opted to stay with Toulon. But he won’t be captured as the third year option was in his original contract.

Ross Moriarty - Not captured as his Gloucester deal pre-dates the Law. He will be out of contract next year though and is sure to be a prime target for a WRU dual deal, with the back rower already being linked with the Scarlets.

Owen Williams - Although the Scarlets wanted him back when he was out of contract last year, the fly-half is unaffected as he re-signed for Leicester just before the Law formally came into being.

Ian Evans - Still has ambitions to play for Wales and wouldn’t have to be a wildcard based on when he signed for Bristol. Has a chance to catch the eye now that he will be playing in the Premiership.

Richard Hibbard - Not captured, as he signed for Gloucester before the Law became active, but leaving the Ospreys for Kingsholm has coincided with him falling out of the Wales frame.

James Hook - Unaffected, again because of when he signed up at Kingsholm, but has now slipped right of the Test picture having become a fringe figure in recent years.

Looks like North and Charteris got some pretty poor advice from their "Agents", hopefully in future they will listen to the WRU not their self interested agents?

Whilst a number of these players will now miss out on playing for their country, their clubs will be delighted to have them available for duty during the international Windows. So Wales loss will be their clubs gain, it's a real shame but if the standard of rugby is Wales is to improve, then a hard line must be taken.

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Post by offload on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 10:56 am

When all our players are fit and available we have struggled to perform. I shudder to think what will happen if we end up with a handful of second choices, before injuries. Gatland is single handedly capable of redefining the word stubborn.
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Post by Seagultaf on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 3:13 pm

offload wrote:When all our players are fit and available we have struggled to perform.  I shudder to think what will happen if we end up with a handful of second choices, before injuries.  Gatland is single handedly capable of redefining the word stubborn.  

It's not Gatland that is stubborn, the players all knew all about the rules about playing outside Wales linked to the new Participation Agreement. Unfortunately a few of them, or their greedy self interested agents, thought they could ignore them and reap the financial rewards from playing for Wales and big salaries from clubs outside Wales. I am certainly prepared for Wales to lose a few games in the short term, in exchange for a much stronger Welsh rugby in the future.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 3:22 pm

If no region offered North a contract, what was he to do?

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Post by Seagultaf on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 4:19 pm

LondonTiger wrote:If no region offered North a contract, what was he to do?

Firstly the Scarlets and other regions were very interested in offering George North a contract and the WRU would have paid part of it under a NDC arrangement. But George (or his agent) chose not to discuss these options.

Had he not been made any offers from the Welsh Regions he should have discussed his situation with the WRU and the National Team coaches and agreed a way forward.

I am afraid, that like the English players currently excluded from the national team for the same reason, he only has himself to blame.

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 4:54 pm

I agree with Seagultaf on this. Charteris and Faletau should be looking over their shoulders, also, wasn't Jamie Roberts offered a contract with Cardiff Blues ?

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Post by Seagultaf on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 6:32 pm

Turns out that the list has been announced and Charteris is not included. How on earth does that work, makes a real mockery of the rule?

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 8:55 pm

Charteris by all accounts wasn't offered any contract by any of the Regions.

Out of the 7 names listed as wild card 3 wouldn't have been included anyway and Priestland looks like being the 'big' name to miss out.

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 10:08 pm

Here you are guys, Gatlands list:-

Taulupe Faletau

George North

Rhys Priestland

Jamie Roberts

Nicky Thomas

Rhodri Williams

Dominic Day

I could have sworn Dragons offered Charteris a contract, or am I just dreaming it ?

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 10:26 pm

Dreaming it, though I am pretty blydi sure Francis signed a contract extension so not sure why he's not on the list.

Lets be honest with that list its a no brainer as to who the 3 will be and the other 4 won't be any great loss.
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Post by nlpnlp on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 11:06 pm

I really don't understand this, Surely having English and French clubs pay big money to some of your players just allows the Welsh regions to pay for other players that would not otherwise get a chance? So instead of having 60 first team players playing week in week out you have 70 players. It just seems to be a way of limiting your chances when you choose not to include Charteris, etc in the pool of players to choose from.

When you look at football there is no thought whatsoever of a player having to play in their home league to be selected. Few if any of the Brazil team play in Brazil, but it does not stop them being a top team.

I thin the same with England. I don't see why we are better for not being able to pick European players of the year such as Abendenon or Armitage. I understand the clubs don't like it, but...

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Post by maestegmafia on Fri 09 Sep 2016, 11:28 pm

Doesn't George North have a release deal in his contract?

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Post by Seagultaf on Sat 10 Sep 2016, 10:15 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:Charteris by all accounts wasn't offered any contract by any of the Regions.

Out of the 7 names listed as wild card 3 wouldn't have been included anyway and Priestland looks like being the 'big' name to miss out.


There was interest in Charteris from Scarlets and Dragons but as he chose not to speak to them he avoided an offer being made.

I suspect that the WRU have manoeuvred this to send a message to the players who are out of contract at the end of this season, whilst minimising the impact of the Welsh side. Unfortunately we can now expect a number of players to exploit the Charteris wheeze to try to avoid this ruling.

Simple the rule needs changing: If you sign a contract to play outside Wales after the date of the Participation Agreement them you cannot be selected for Wales except as alone of the agreed number of Wildcards.

Simple!

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Post by Seagultaf on Sat 10 Sep 2016, 10:16 am

maestegmafia wrote:Doesn't George North have a release deal in his contract?

Yes he does but he also chose to ignore the WRU advice on playing in Wales to ensure he was available for Wales.

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Post by Seagultaf on Sat 10 Sep 2016, 10:22 am

nlpnlp wrote:I really don't understand this,  Surely having English and French clubs pay big money to some of your players just allows the Welsh regions to pay for other players that would not otherwise get a chance?  So instead of having 60 first team players playing week in week out you have 70 players.  It just seems to be a way of limiting your chances when you choose not to include Charteris, etc in the pool of players to choose from.

When you look at football there is no thought whatsoever of a player having to play in their home league to be selected. Few if any of the Brazil team play in Brazil, but it does not stop them being a top team.

I thin the same with England.  I don't see why we are better for not being able to pick European players of the year such as Abendenon or Armitage.  I understand the clubs don't like it, but...

It's very simple nipip. There are two basic agendas:
Firstly its player welfare, Wales wants to limit the game time for its top players so that they are fresh and fit for test rugby. They can't do this if they are being worked to the bone by English and French clubs. They also want better access to their players outside international windows, just like the English team management are currently enjoying.
Secondly the standard of professional rugby is Wales is declining as more of the top players leave the regions to play their rugby elsewhere. Wales needs successful regions playing at a high standard so that young players benefit from playing for these successful high performing teams as they develop. This cannot be achieved if star players play outside Wales.

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Post by Seagultaf on Sat 10 Sep 2016, 10:23 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:Dreaming it, though I am pretty blydi sure Francis signed a contract extension so not sure why he's not on the list.

Lets be honest with that list its a no brainer as to who the 3 will be and the other 4 won't be any great loss.

That's the way I recall it also Bedford!

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Post by TJ on Sat 10 Sep 2016, 10:27 am

nlpnlp wrote:I really don't understand this,  Surely having English and French clubs pay big money to some of your players just allows the Welsh regions to pay for other players that would not otherwise get a chance?  So instead of having 60 first team players playing week in week out you have 70 players.  It just seems to be a way of limiting your chances when you choose not to include Charteris, etc in the pool of players to choose from.

When you look at football there is no thought whatsoever of a player having to play in their home league to be selected. Few if any of the Brazil team play in Brazil, but it does not stop them being a top team.

I thin the same with England.  I don't see why we are better for not being able to pick European players of the year such as Abendenon or Armitage.  I understand the clubs don't like it, but...

Certainly for Scotland having our players play outside scotland works OK. I think its one of the welsh pro 12 teams problems - they pay so much to keep their stars that they have not enough left in the kitty for a deep enough squad.

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Post by nathan on Sat 10 Sep 2016, 10:31 am

Is this a rule by the WRU to help them generate a few extra dollars as having their players not available when they play a game outside of the test window?

I can understand how it works for England because of the bigger number of players available.

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Post by Seagultaf on Sat 10 Sep 2016, 11:25 am

TJ wrote:
nlpnlp wrote:I really don't understand this,  Surely having English and French clubs pay big money to some of your players just allows the Welsh regions to pay for other players that would not otherwise get a chance?  So instead of having 60 first team players playing week in week out you have 70 players.  It just seems to be a way of limiting your chances when you choose not to include Charteris, etc in the pool of players to choose from.

When you look at football there is no thought whatsoever of a player having to play in their home league to be selected. Few if any of the Brazil team play in Brazil, but it does not stop them being a top team.

I thin the same with England.  I don't see why we are better for not being able to pick European players of the year such as Abendenon or Armitage.  I understand the clubs don't like it, but...

Certainly for Scotland having our players play outside scotland works OK.  I think its one of the welsh pro 12 teams problems - they pay so much to keep their stars that they have not enough left in the kitty for a deep enough squad.

Scotland only have two pro sides so SRU are able to provide them with a bigger budget that the WRU provides the Welsh Regions, that why the some of the Welsh regions struggle. The WRU are now offering greater funding in the form of NDC payments to share the cost of team Wales players salaries, unfortunately it's not a particularly level playing field with some a Regions have ping lots of players on NDCs and others very few.

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Post by Seagultaf on Sat 10 Sep 2016, 11:27 am

nathan wrote:Is this a rule by the WRU to help them generate a few extra dollars as having their players not available when they play a game outside of the test window?

I can understand how it works for England because of the bigger number of players available.

No, it's a rule to improve team Wales access to players, improve player welfare and strengthen the playing squads of the Welsh Regions. Pretty much the way England operate it actually.

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Post by LordDowlais on Sun 11 Sep 2016, 1:32 pm

Rhys Priestland is sailing close to the wind as well according to Adrian Hadley:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/37323660

Rhys Priestland to suffer for 'ridiculous' Wales policy - Adrian Hadley

Former Wales wing Adrian Hadley believes Bath fly-half Rhys Priestland will be the highest profile casualty of the "daft" so-called Gatland's Law.

The Welsh Rugby Union's (WRU) senior player selection policy (SPSP) means only three players who play outside Wales can be picked.

Hadley thinks Taulupe Faletau, George North and Jamie Roberts will be the three wildcards.

"They'll leave Rhys Priestland out," said ex-dual-code international Hadley.

He feels the presence in Wales of Ospreys rivals Dan Biggar and Sam Davies plus Scarlets' Rhys Patchell and Gareth Anscombe leaves Priestland facing the end of his Test career.

"With the other outside halves in the pecking order at the moment you would probably think that was the end of it," Hadley said.

"You've got Sam Davies, Dan Biggar, Rhys Patchell - who is going to play a fair bit at 10 - and you've got Gareth Anscombe.

"Unless one of the others gets injured and cannot be picked then there's a possibility he [Priestland] becomes the third wildcard choice then."

Priestland, who joined Bath from Scarlets after the 2015 World Cup, announced in October 2015 that he was taking an 18-month break from playing for Wales.

But the 48-times capped player reversed his decision two months later and featured in all five games of the 2016 Six Nations and went on the summer tour to New Zealand.

Priestland is affected by a player selection policy is aimed at ensuring more players play their domestic rugby in Wales.

The WRU has revealed its seven-man list for the first time. Three wildcard selections are available for each Wales campaign during 2016-17.

Lock Dominic Day, flanker Nicky Thomas and scrum-half Rhodri Williams are the others affected while Bath lock Luke Charteris is exempt from the rule and free for selection.

The SPSP does not affect players who signed contracts with clubs outside Wales before the policy was introduced, such as Toulon's Leigh Halfpenny and Exeter's Tomas Francis.

"I just think the whole rule is ridiculous," Hadley told BBC Radio Wales Sport.

"They should just scrap it and (the coach) should be able to pick whatever players he wants to pick.

"For Wales you want to be playing your best players, whether they're playing in Wales or not

"You want to try and keep them in Wales if you can, but if you can't then surely you want them still playing for Wales."

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 11 Sep 2016, 1:40 pm

The rule isn't ridiculous, it's bringing more of our players back home and keeping the others on lockdown. What's ridiculous is how the rule seems to change to suit some players, but I understand as there's no way I would leave Charteris, Halfpenny, Roberts and Francis out of my squad - I'd even be tempted to bring in Ian Evans as well. We should see the benefits of this in a few years when all our top players are at home and our regions stronger.

Hadley's also an idiot if he thinks RP is one of our best players, or a turk (both are interchangeable).

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Sun 11 Sep 2016, 5:51 pm

It didn't stop your best player moving to Bath

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Post by Seagultaf on Sun 11 Sep 2016, 7:22 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:It didn't stop your best player moving to Bath

But it will prevent players signing for teams in England and France next season now that they know that they risk loosing the significant wage they earn by playing for team Wales.

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Sun 11 Sep 2016, 7:25 pm

Some players will still go and that's their choice I guess, I do like the Aussie rule they brought in with regards the number of caps etc.

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Post by TJ on Sun 11 Sep 2016, 9:13 pm

Seagultaf wrote:

Scotland only have two pro sides so SRU are able to provide them with a bigger budget that the WRU provides the Welsh Regions, that why the some of the Welsh regions struggle. The WRU are now offering greater funding in the form of NDC payments to share the cost of team Wales players salaries, unfortunately it's not a particularly level playing field with some a Regions have ping lots of players on NDCs and others very few.

Wrong as has been shown many times. The budgets for players are broadly comparable now. It used to be the scots teams were the poor relations.

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Post by True Raven on Sun 11 Sep 2016, 11:20 pm

TJ wrote:
Seagultaf wrote:

Scotland only have two pro sides so SRU are able to provide them with a bigger budget that the WRU provides the Welsh Regions, that why the some of the Welsh regions struggle. The WRU are now offering greater funding in the form of NDC payments to share the cost of team Wales players salaries, unfortunately it's not a particularly level playing field with some a Regions have ping lots of players on NDCs and others very few.

Wrong as has been shown many times.  The budgets for players are broadly comparable now.  It used to be the scots teams were the poor relations.

There's no way the budget for the Dragons is the same as Glasgow

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Post by TJ on Sun 11 Sep 2016, 11:51 pm

Last time we looked at this in detail the actual amount spent on players was pretty similar for the scots and Welsh teams. Dunno for sure what the dragons have but that how it works out as an average for the welsh teams. Salery cap of 3.5 million ( or is it 4,5 million/) is it not plus the central payments for the welsh clubs. Scots teams have around 5-6 million total budget - that includes all the coaches and backroom staff and travel costs etc which is not in the welsh playing budget. Its only in the last 3 years that the scots have achieved parity with the welsh. Used to be a much smaller budget for the scots teams.

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Post by True Raven on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 8:13 am

TJ wrote:Last time we looked at this in detail the actual amount spent on players was pretty similar for the scots and Welsh teams.  Dunno for sure what the dragons have but that how it works out as an average for the welsh teams.  Salery cap of 3.5 million ( or is it 4,5 million/) is it not plus the central payments for the welsh clubs.  Scots teams have around 5-6 million total budget - that includes all the coaches and backroom staff and travel costs etc which is not in the welsh playing budget.   Its only in the last 3 years that the scots have achieved parity with the welsh.  Used to be a much smaller budget for the scots teams.

Doesn't mean though that the clubs use the budget though as the regions post losses year on year (although the Ospreys posted a profit last year for the first time in years). Im sure I've read that the dragons don't use up all the budget available.

Only the Ospreys will benefit from the NDC money due to the sheer number at the region. Tyler morgan and Hallam Amos are the NDC at the dragons and they won't be on huge contracts

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Post by propdavid_london on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 11:11 am

Roberts should be left out - He isn't performing in a poor Quins side at the moment and there is really good cover available.
If you had to pick 3 players based outside of Wales then North, Toby F (might not be an issue if recently injured) and Charteris.

Halfpenny is only recently back from injury but Liam Williams is in excellent form and Dan B is right up there in the kicking %.

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 11:29 am

Seagultaf wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:If no region offered North a contract, what was he to do?

Firstly the Scarlets and other regions were very interested in offering George North a contract and the WRU would have paid part of it under a NDC arrangement. But George (or his agent) chose not to discuss these options.

Had he not been made any offers from the Welsh Regions he should have discussed his situation with the WRU and the National Team coaches and agreed a way forward.

I am afraid, that like the English players currently excluded from the national team for the same reason, he only has himself to blame.

He also couldve asked whatever club he went to to write release clauses into his contract to ensure he was available for all games and training camps. Obviously he would've had to elect to take a pay cut for this.

Bearing in mind as well that North is on short notice for repeated head injuries youd think he'd want to play in an environment where his games were going to be carefully monitored by a single body and his playing time limited, rather than run till he drops as will happen in France. But then maybe that in itself is a justification for taking the big easy money when its on offer, his career could end at any time so he needs to get the pension in place now.



Overall choosing to play in France shows that players are not fully committed to Wales as their number one focus. It shows they arent fully bought into the team and thing that they are bigger than the domestic game.
It damages Welsh rugby from top to bottom to have players leave. The Pro 12 is further devalued.
These players wont have their time and fitness properly managed, and wont be available for all games and training as a squad.
When trying to foster a squad mentality it doesnt matter how good a player is, if they put themselves above that team then its damaging to have them in the dressing room.

Really this will only stop being a thing if and wen they can sort out a better season structure, and convince the French to stop playing such much during the domestic seasons.

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Post by TJ on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 11:52 am

I just don't get this. Playing abroad generally improves players and gives more chances for young home grown talent in the pro12. Take Laidlaw as a classic example. Looked stale playing in Scotland. Moved to england, his game improved and his going left space for youngsters to come thru in his place. Win / win. Or Maitland - another example of the same thing.

I think the obsession with keeping the welsh stars playing in wales damages the pro 12 teams. You pay too much for the stars meaning no money left for squad depth, youngsters don't get opportunity and players don't develop as well as they can.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 12:01 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Roberts should be left out - He isn't performing in a poor Quins side at the moment and there is really good cover available.  
If you had to pick 3 players based outside of Wales then North, Toby F (might not be an issue if recently injured) and Charteris.  

Halfpenny is only recently back from injury but Liam Williams is in excellent form and Dan B is right up there in the kicking %.  

Is he really underperforming? I did comment the other day that regardless of form Roberts might be the one to miss out because in Wales we have Davies, Williams, Beck, Allen, Dixon and Morgan will have their eye on a centre spot. Saying that though, there is questionable form from all of them apart from Beck who recently picked up a minor injury and missed the game against Connacht. Allen looks alright but it always looks as if he's putting in 50% effort so I'm not entirely sure about him. I haven't watched Scarlets this year but rumour is that they can't pass?

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 12:02 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
Seagultaf wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:If no region offered North a contract, what was he to do?

Firstly the Scarlets and other regions were very interested in offering George North a contract and the WRU would have paid part of it under a NDC arrangement. But George (or his agent) chose not to discuss these options.

Had he not been made any offers from the Welsh Regions he should have discussed his situation with the WRU and the National Team coaches and agreed a way forward.

I am afraid, that like the English players currently excluded from the national team for the same reason, he only has himself to blame.

He also couldve asked whatever club he went to to write release clauses into his contract to ensure he was available for all games and training camps. Obviously he would've had to elect to take a pay cut for this.

Bearing in mind as well that North is on short notice for repeated head injuries youd think he'd want to play in an environment where his games were going to be carefully monitored by a single body and his playing time limited, rather than run till he drops as will happen in France. But then maybe that in itself is a justification for taking the big easy money when its on offer, his career could end at any time so he needs to get the pension in place now.



Overall choosing to play in France shows that players are not fully committed to Wales as their number one focus. It shows they arent fully bought into the team and thing that they are bigger than the domestic game.
It damages Welsh rugby from top to bottom to have players leave. The Pro 12 is further devalued.
These players wont have their time and fitness properly managed, and wont be available for all games and training as a squad.
When trying to foster a squad mentality it doesnt matter how good a player is, if they put themselves above that team then its damaging to have them in the dressing room.

Really this will only stop being a thing if and wen they can sort out a better season structure, and convince the French to stop playing such much during the domestic seasons.

You're talking so much sense today, very uncharacteristic Smile.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 12:03 pm

TJ wrote:I just don't get this.  Playing abroad generally improves players and gives more chances for young home grown talent in the pro12.  Take Laidlaw as a classic example.  Looked stale playing in Scotland.  Moved to england, his game improved and his going left space for youngsters to come thru in his place.  Win / win.  Or Maitland - another example of the same thing.

I think the obsession with keeping the welsh stars playing in wales damages the pro 12 teams.  You pay too much for the stars meaning no money left for squad depth, youngsters don't get opportunity and players don't develop as well as they can.

You must not have been paying attention to the Welsh teams without their top players in recent years then. If you still lack understanding you could always ask some supporters of England and NZ why they also enforce this rule.

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Post by TJ on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 12:20 pm

Mikey - why does it work for Scotland then? Of course the two scots teams also offer more than just the playing package but even so we lose some of our stars to other leagues but by and large it works to the advantage of the national side and no real detriment to the pro 12 teams.

I think the welsh concentrate too much on "the stars" to the detriment of squad depth

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 12:32 pm

Because Scotland only have two pro teams and they're now in a place where they have more depth and not enough squad places in those two teams. Also, up until recently they were cack and probably on a level with Italian teams (or near enough) so they wouldn't have developed that many good players - that's changed now though with the rise of Glasgow and even Edinburgh are a lot stronger than in those years. I believe Frank Hadden wanted all internationals to be playing Scotland too? A lot of people agree that we need our top players at Welsh teams and some agree with you. I think Gooseberry has highlighted some other reasons why it's important for us to have them play at home.

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Post by TJ on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 12:41 pm

Aye there was a "fortress Scotland" attempt for a while - abandoned as stupid very quickly. My point is that by concentrating on the stars you 1) don't have enough money left for squad depth and
2) some players never develop fully ether by not being exposed to different rugby culture ( big fish / small pond) or by never getting a chance to have regular first team rugby

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 12:44 pm

We just need to find the right balance, which I think a test playing nation like Ireland has done. We haven't yet but I think we will do.

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Post by TJ on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 1:04 pm

I think one of the ways to keep players is to offer more as a package. Good places to live, good medical support, not overplaying them etc

I agree a balance needs to be found - I am not convinced Gatlands law in its rather messy form is the answer nor is spending all your budget to keep a few stars who will only play maybe 15 games a season

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 2:22 pm

TJ wrote:Mikey - why does it work for Scotland then?  Of course the two scots teams also offer more than just the playing package but even so we lose some of our stars to other leagues but by and large it works to the advantage of the national side and no real detriment to the pro 12 teams.

I think the welsh concentrate too much on "the stars" to the detriment of squad depth

It doesnt really work for Scotland though, they remain pretty rubbish.

What theyve done instead of trying to craddle to grave a whole extended squad of test class players though is actively seek out anyone with a vaguely Scottish connection or who's willing to hang out with a guaranteed job for a few years to get one.
England have of course got this really right by having a big league with plenty of home grown players, a strong academies system, and absolutely no shame in cherry picking any player they can from around the world or rugby league. They are certainly in a far better position to find 64+ qualified players in the home league to make up and extended elite squad than Wales Scotland or Ireland are.

Wales have done what they can to encourage their top stars to stay home and looked at the barriers to them doing that with central contracts etc...but it does appear tio not be working. That cases a problem thats not easily solved if they want to team to reach its potential

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