Warren Gatland: Big names will miss out on Wales selection in autumn- It's getting serious !!!!

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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 12:45 pm

First topic message reminder :

So, he is starting to put his foot down. Apparently he has already told the players.

Warren Gatland has said some players will miss out on being selected for Wales' autumn internationals under the so-called Gatland's Law.

The rule means only three players who play outside Wales can be picked.

Robert Howley will deputise for Gatland, who will take charge of the 2017 British and Irish Lions tour to New Zealand.

"A couple of big names and big players are going to miss out in the autumn," Gatland said,

"That's going to be quite dramatic.

"Everyone's been questioning whether we're going to stick to that policy, and I can guarantee you that that's going to happen. The players have been informed."

Wales host Australia, Argentina, Japan and South Africa at Cardiff's Principality Stadium in November.

Jamie Roberts, George North, Rhys Priestland and Luke Charteris are among the players who play in England, while Leigh Halfpenny is with Toulon in France.

In August, 2014, the Welsh Rugby Union and Wales' four professional regions signed a £60m, six-year deal that settled a long-running dispute over the sport's future.

That deal included rules that mean players based outside Wales could be overlooked in favour of home-based talent.

The policy ruled no player based overseas should represent Wales, although they are able to make exceptions.

Wales' leading exiles v leading Wales-based rivals (as at 25 August, 2016)

BACKS Full-back: Leigh Halfpenny (Toulon) v Liam Williams (Scarlets) Wing: George North (Northampton) v Alex Cuthbert/Tom James (Cardiff Blues), Eli Walker (Ospreys) & Hallam Amos (Dragons) Centre: Jamie Roberts v Jonathan Davies/Scott Williams (Scarlets) & Tyler Morgan (Newport Gwent Dragons) Fly-half: Rhys Priestland (Bath) & James Hook (Gloucester) v Dan Biggar (Ospreys)/Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues)/Rhys Patchell (Scarlets).

FORWARDS Tight-head prop: Tomas Francis (Exeter) & Aaron Jarvis (Clermont Auvergne) v Samson Lee (Scarlets) Lock: Luke Charteris (Bath) v Alun Wyn Jones & Bradley Davies (Ospreys)/Jake Ball (Scarlets) Back-row: Taulupe Faletau (Bath) v James King (Ospreys), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester) v Josh Turnbull (Cardiff Blues).

Do you reckon he will stick to his guns ?


Last edited by LordDowlais on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 4:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by True Raven on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 4:06 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
TJ wrote:Mikey - why does it work for Scotland then?  Of course the two scots teams also offer more than just the playing package but even so we lose some of our stars to other leagues but by and large it works to the advantage of the national side and no real detriment to the pro 12 teams.

I think the welsh concentrate too much on "the stars" to the detriment of squad depth

It doesnt really work for Scotland though, they remain pretty rubbish.

What theyve done instead of trying to craddle to grave a whole extended squad of test class players though is actively seek out anyone with a vaguely Scottish connection or who's willing to hang out with a guaranteed job for a few years to get one.
England have of course got this really right by having a big league with plenty of home grown players, a strong academies system, and absolutely no shame in cherry picking any player they can from around the world or rugby league. They are certainly in a far better position to find 64+ qualified players in the home league to make up and extended elite squad than Wales Scotland or Ireland are.

Wales have done what they can to encourage their top stars to stay home and looked at the barriers to them doing that with central contracts etc...but it does appear tio not be working. That cases a problem thats not easily solved if they want to team to reach its potential

The last parahraph is complete crap and written by someone who has failed to do his research.

Some of our key players have re-signed NDC to stay in Wales such as Biggar, Webb, AWJ. Not too mention Bradley Davies and JD2 signed contracts to return to Wales. Only Faletau has left Wales when the NDC have been on the table

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Post by True Raven on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 4:11 pm

TJ wrote:Mikey - why does it work for Scotland then?  Of course the two scots teams also offer more than just the playing package but even so we lose some of our stars to other leagues but by and large it works to the advantage of the national side and no real detriment to the pro 12 teams.

I think the welsh concentrate too much on "the stars" to the detriment of squad depth

Scottish teams may not spend the money to keep the Scottish stars in Scotland but you probably spend big bucks on NSQ to come to Scotland such as Nakarawa, Maitland, Nel, naiyaravoro at the expense of the established Scottish stars

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Post by LordDowlais on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 4:19 pm

True Raven wrote:
TJ wrote:Mikey - why does it work for Scotland then?  Of course the two scots teams also offer more than just the playing package but even so we lose some of our stars to other leagues but by and large it works to the advantage of the national side and no real detriment to the pro 12 teams.

I think the welsh concentrate too much on "the stars" to the detriment of squad depth

Scottish teams may not spend the money to keep the Scottish stars in Scotland but you probably spend big bucks on NSQ to come to Scotland such as Nakarawa, Maitland, Nel, naiyaravoro at the expense of the established Scottish stars

They then get them all year around, which probably explains why Glasgow are so good, and the national team, not so good. OK

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Post by TJ on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 5:25 pm

True Raven wrote:
TJ wrote:Mikey - why does it work for Scotland then?  Of course the two scots teams also offer more than just the playing package but even so we lose some of our stars to other leagues but by and large it works to the advantage of the national side and no real detriment to the pro 12 teams.

I think the welsh concentrate too much on "the stars" to the detriment of squad depth

Scottish teams may not spend the money to keep the Scottish stars in Scotland but you probably spend big bucks on NSQ to come to Scotland such as Nakarawa, Maitland, Nel, naiyaravoro at the expense of the established Scottish stars

Nope. Nakawara was almost unknown when he came to Scotland and would not have been big bucks. Maitland would also have been cheap due to his circumstances. Nel probably a decent but not ridiculous salary he had been overlooked for SA remember so only a salary to match his currie cup team, Naiyaravoro I don't know

The scots coaches have a decent record of signing players with potential and turning them into stars over the last few years. We simply don't pay big bucks to get established stars we don't have the money to do so and in recent years have not even tried. when is the last time a scots team got an established well known international to join them? Can't think of one

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 12 Sep 2016, 5:25 pm

Whilst I think it's a stretch to say the Scottish system "works", in the sense that we haven't made any noise in the 6 Nations ever, it is in my view the optimal system for us given the limited playing pool.

Wales is a different beast - rugby is a religion in Wales and if there are any designs on having meaningful club/regional/provincial/franchise rugby in Wales then a system needs to be in place to incentivise star Welsh players to play there, be it carrot or stick. I don't think Gatland's Law is perfect, far from it, but I completely understand and support its rationale.

We did try "Fortress Scotland" up here for a while under Matt Williams, but with only two professional sides to pick from, it would severely limit our playing pool (it also failed because Matt Williams was a complete idiot). Under our model we NEED players to leave Scotland and play elsewhere. Yes, it also helps for players to gain exposure to different rugby (and a higher level of rugby in many cases), but it also helps to expand upon options available to Cotter. With more teams available that's less of a concern for Wales.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 10:19 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:Under our model we NEED players to leave Scotland and play elsewhere. Yes, it also helps for players to gain exposure to different rugby (and a higher level of rugby in many cases), but it also helps to expand upon options available to Cotter. With more teams available that's less of a concern for Wales.

With only two teams to manage, there should be no excuses, there should be a lot more Scottish players playing for Glasgow and Edinburgh even if some move to other countries. I would not like to think how many time servers and non Scotts are playing for Edinburgh.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 2:08 pm

So with Faletau likely to miss the AIs and Halfpenny, Moriarty, Francis & Charteris exempt from the "new rules" (why Charteris though?) it looks like Howley will pretty much have a free hand.

Of course a team that could be picked of:

1/2p, Williams Li, JD2, Roberts, North, Biggar, Webb, Moriarty, Warburton, Lydiate, Charteris, AWJ, Francis, Owens, Jenkins


would contain more non-welsh based players than those at regions!!!!!!!!

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 2:58 pm

It wouldn't.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 4:17 pm

True, I cannot count. Blame the heat.

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Post by True Raven on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 6:06 pm

LondonTiger wrote:So with Faletau likely to miss the AIs and Halfpenny, Moriarty, Francis & Charteris exempt from the "new rules" (why Charteris though?) it looks like Howley will pretty much have a free hand.

Of course a team that could be picked of:

1/2p, Williams Li, JD2, Roberts, North, Biggar, Webb, Moriarty, Warburton, Lydiate, Charteris, AWJ, Francis, Owens, Jenkins


would contain more non-welsh based players than those at regions!!!!!!!!

Charteris wasn't offered a contract with a region, so I think that's why he's exempt as he had no where else to play.

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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 1:56 pm

Jake Ball is wading in an all now:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/37344200

Wales lock Jake Ball says 'Gatland's Law' should not apply to senior players.

Lock Jake Ball says Welsh rugby's so-called "Gatland's Law" should not apply to long-serving members of the squad.

The Welsh Rugby Union's (WRU) senior player selection policy (SPSP) means only three players based outside Wales can be picked for the national team.

But Ball, 25, believes there should be exemptions.

"People who have served their country for a long time should be allowed to go away if they want to when they're in their 30s," he said.

The rule will come into force for the first time when Wales name their squad for the autumn internationals which will be selected not by head coach Warren Gatland but assistant Rob Howley.

Gatland is taking a sabbatical from Wales after being named coach of the British and Irish Lions for their 2017 summer tour to New Zealand.

The list of players to be affected by the new rule includes Rhys Priestland, Taulupe Faletau, Jamie Roberts and George North.

Second-row Luke Charteris - who joined Bath from Racing 92 during the summer - is believed to be exempt because he was not offered a contract in Wales before signing for the English club.

Ball will be vying for a place in the Wales second row with Charteris but welcomes his rival's exemption.

"For someone of his age (33) that's played as much as he has (68 caps) there could be an exception," said Ball.

Australian-born Ball turned down an offer from Northampton Saints in favour of signing a national dual contract with Scarlets and Wales and agrees with the principle of the selection policy.

"I look at it and think I made the right decision. You should be rewarded for staying and playing in your country. That's how you build a good national team.

"But I'd like to think when I get to 32, 33, it might be that I want to go and experience something different.

"It would be nice to think that when it gets to that point you'd get a blessing to go and do that."

The WRU has listed seven players who would fall into the wild card category if selected.

Included in addition to Priestland (Bath), Roberts (Harlequins), North (Northampton) and Faletau (Bath), lock Dominic Day (Toyota Verblitz in Japan, before joining Melbourne Rebels in 2017), flanker Nicky Thomas (Gloucester) and scrum-half Rhodri Williams (Bristol) are the others affected.

Three wildcard selections are available for each Wales campaign during 2016-17.

The rule does not affect players who signed contracts with clubs outside Wales before the policy was introduced, such as Toulon's Leigh Halfpenny and Exeter's Tomas Francis.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 2:10 pm

I can see why England born Ball thinks that but it is a great way to ensure that your teams remain really competitive by tying those with international ambitions to them. I still think it would be better for the league in general to extend 'home based' players to mean playing in the Pro 12.

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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 2:16 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I can see why England born Ball thinks that

And you wonder why you get called a WUM/Troll. Rolling Eyes

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 2:18 pm

Pedantic. It was killing me that the Beeb makes such a stupid error by not checking. But not a wum, I actually had a point on the thread you choose to ignore by wanting to have a pop first.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 10:51 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Pedantic. It was killing me that the Beeb makes such a stupid error by not checking. But not a wum, I actually had a point on the thread you choose to ignore by wanting to have a pop first.

They have a track record of making mistakes where Jake Ball is concerned. When he was coming up for his first cap they kept getting his age way out, having him far older than he is. And then there was the time they thought that his name wasn't Ball, and it actually had 'sack' following Ball in his surname.

I can see what Ball was saying, perhaps ditching the 3 wild card selections and introducing a "players with 75+ caps are exempt" ruling would mean only true international veterans get special treatment. Personally though, I think I would rather us class every player outside of the regions as unavailable, deal with the few years of poor performances that will come our way and soldier on, as all the variations of who is captured by the law and who isn't are just too open to abuse.
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Post by wayne on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 11:17 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Pedantic. It was killing me that the Beeb makes such a stupid error by not checking. But not a wum, I actually had a point on the thread you choose to ignore by wanting to have a pop first.

They have a track record of making mistakes where Jake Ball is concerned.  When he was coming up for his first cap they kept getting his age way out, having him far older than he is.  And then there was the time they thought that his name wasn't Ball, and it actually had 'sack' following Ball in his surname.

I can see what Ball was saying, perhaps ditching the 3 wild card selections and introducing a "players with 75+ caps are exempt" ruling would mean only true international veterans get special treatment.   Personally though, I think I would rather us class every player outside of the regions as unavailable, deal with the few years of poor performances that will come our way and soldier on, as all the variations of who is captured by the law and who isn't are just too open to abuse.

Yes entirely agree with your second paragraph SS, Gatland missed the chance when the supposed law came in IMO, all he had to do was say it would come into effect after the 2015 WC, it gave the players a few years to organise themselves, if they wanted to make a few bob I don't blame them in the slightest, it is a short career and can be over in a flick of a switch.

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Post by True Raven on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 1:23 pm

wayne wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Pedantic. It was killing me that the Beeb makes such a stupid error by not checking. But not a wum, I actually had a point on the thread you choose to ignore by wanting to have a pop first.

They have a track record of making mistakes where Jake Ball is concerned.  When he was coming up for his first cap they kept getting his age way out, having him far older than he is.  And then there was the time they thought that his name wasn't Ball, and it actually had 'sack' following Ball in his surname.

I can see what Ball was saying, perhaps ditching the 3 wild card selections and introducing a "players with 75+ caps are exempt" ruling would mean only true international veterans get special treatment.   Personally though, I think I would rather us class every player outside of the regions as unavailable, deal with the few years of poor performances that will come our way and soldier on, as all the variations of who is captured by the law and who isn't are just too open to abuse.

Yes entirely agree with your second paragraph SS, Gatland missed the chance when the supposed law came in IMO, all he had to do was say it would come into effect after the 2015 WC, it gave the players a few years to organise themselves, if they wanted to make a few bob I don't blame them in the slightest, it is a short career and can be over in a flick of a switch.

I have no issue with any player taking a sabattical to try new surroundings such as Faletau who for me should not be exempt in any way. The issue i have is with players like Roberts who had a sabbatical and the option of then returning to Wales but decided to play in a mediocre quins team instead. He should not be available for selection.

If AWJ decided to play a few lucrative years in France, The Ospreys would suffer but no one would blame him as he has given everything to the region. However, he should still be picked for Wales

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