England v Fiji, 19 November

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Post by George Carlin on Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:08 am

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England v Fiji, 19 November - Page 4 Englan10 England v Fiji, 19 November - Page 4 Fiji_r10
ENGLAND v FIJI
19 November 2016
14:30 GMT (UTC+0)
Twickenham Stadium, London

Live on [Sky Sports 1]

Referee: Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Assistant referees: Paul Williams (New Zealand), Lloyd Linton (Scotland)
Television match official: Gareth Simmonds (Wales)
Assessor: Mark Lawrence (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

6 Played 6
6 Won 0
0 Drawn 0
0 Lost 6
245 Points 94

B. Recent Form

18 September 2015
England 35 - 11 Fiji
Twickenham

10 November 2012
England 54 - 12 Fiji
Twickenham

20 October 1999
England 45 - 24 Fiji
Twickenham

20 July 1991
Fiji 12 - 28 England
National Stadium, Suva

04 November 1989
England 58 - 23 Fiji
Twickenham

17 June 1988
Fiji 12 - 25 England
National Stadium, Suva

C. Teams

ENGLAND 
England v Fiji, 19 November - Page 4 Oak_tr10
A Goode; S Rokoduguni, J Joseph, O Farrell, E Daly; G Ford, B Youngs; M Vunipola, D Hartley, D Cole, J Launchbury, C Lawes, C Robshaw , T Harrison, B Vunipola.

Replacements: J George, J Marler, K Sinckler, C Ewels, N Hughes, D Care, B Te'o, H Slade.

FIJI
England v Fiji, 19 November - Page 4 Palm-t10
M Talebula; B Masilevu, A Tikoirotuma, A Vulivuli, N Nadolo; J Matavesi, S Vularika; C Ma'afu, S Koto Vuli, M Saulo, A Ratuniyarawa, L Nakarawa, D Waqaniburotu, P Yato, A Qera.

Replacements: T Talemaitoga, P Ravai, L Atalifo, N Soqeta, N Dawai, E Radrodro, N Matawalu, K Murimurivalu.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:09 am

I don't know anyone anywhere that does but good to see you appreciate training now! I think overall you can only really go on whether the team doc and physios say yup he's fit enough, for 80 min, 60 min however long then a decision from the coach do I play him for that period, play him on 1 leg or play a newby even against SA, France of NZ. Like I said if it were a straight decision of are the 100% fit or unfit, we'd have no one play.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:41 am

Unfortunately, when it comes to injuries, there will always be cases where players have fought through pain, and risked injury, to deliver top class performances. I can't recall seeing any press coverage arguing that Richie McCaw should not have played on in the World Cup.

Jones is a "how much do you really want it?" coach, so he likes it when he sees a player put himself at risk to play.

Concussion is the current concern but there are plenty of chronic conditions which our sport should know. Here's an old report on the 1981 season Superbowl winners. They are wrecked:

http://www.sfgate.com/sports/kroichick/article/Glory-has-its-price-25-years-later-the-heroes-2655062.php

Twenty-five years later, Montana's left knee is essentially shredded. His right eye occasionally sags from nerve damage. His neck is so stiff, he could not turn his head to look at a reporter asking him questions while he signed memorabilia. Montana, 50, turned both shoulders instead.

Clark, also 50, endures sharp pain every time he lifts his arms above his head -- the exact motion he effortlessly completed on The Catch -- because of a bent screw in his left shoulder and arthritis in his right shoulder. The simple act of turning his head also is a chore, thanks to all those jarring hits on crossing patterns over the middle.

"I hurt," Clark said, "from getting my head squashed down into my neck."

..."If you watch former players walking into a room full of other players and press, they will put on their best gait," said Miki Yaras-Davis, longtime director of benefits for the NFL Players Association. "If you saw them isolated, walking down the hallway with their back to you, you would see something akin to a Neanderthal man broken down."

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:06 am

Billy, Hughes and Daly are the ones struggling apparently.

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Post by beshocked on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:17 am

Well that certainly would leave us in a tough spot when it comes to no 8 if both Hughes and Billy are unfit.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:24 am

Beaumont may be called up if he isn't considered just a lock.

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Post by king_carlos on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:34 am

Ben Morgan is in the 33 man squad and named as a number 8, unlike Beaumont.

Beaumont has been around the training squads more though. I'd prefer Beaumont because I think he's a better 8 than Morgan.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:36 am

Ah of course he was. Not a tough spot at all then.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:39 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Billy, Hughes and Daly are the ones struggling apparently.

But no mention of Brown or May?

I tell you these training sessions must be brutal. More so than the games it seems.

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Post by beshocked on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:42 am

On a slight side note which club do you think would be most suited to rejuvenating Morgan?

If Morgan could regain his previous England form of before 2015.....

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:45 am

If he is willing to accept a cut in pay, Morgan will be heading to Leicester, not sure if that would rejuvenate his career though. If he is not then he will probably turn up in France.

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Post by doctor_grey on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:49 am

LondonTiger wrote:If he is willing to accept a cut in pay, Morgan will be heading to Leicester, not sure if that would rejuvenate his career though. If he is not then he will probably turn up in France.
Well, we can't send him anywhere close to where Andy Goode is living. But for Morgan to really make it to the next level, he needs to become more of an athlete.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:50 am

LondonTiger wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Billy, Hughes and Daly are the ones struggling apparently.

But no mention of Brown or May?

I tell you these training sessions must be brutal. More so than the games it seems.

BBC report.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:52 am

beshocked wrote:On a slight side note which club do you think would be most suited to rejuvenating Morgan?

If Morgan could regain his previous England form of before 2015.....

He's always good for England, can't remember a poor game, always been about the injuries.

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Post by BamBam on Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:45 am

I've discovered beshocked's true identity

It all makes sense now....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/11/17/alex-goode-deserves-england-start-at-full-back-but-will-need-to/

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Post by ChequeredJersey on Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:22 pm

"In some ways that is pretty astonishing because when you compare them like for like you would say Goode has got the better kicking game, is better under the high ball, has got better feet and makes fewer mistakes. Brown is more physical, but in full-back bingo it’s pretty much a full house for Goode."




Yep. Healy is an idiot. Always nice to have a reminder
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Post by Rugby Fan on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:16 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:"..."in some ways that is pretty astonishing because when you compare them like for like, you would say Goode has got the better kicking game, is better under the high ball, has got better feet and makes fewer mistakes. Brown is more physical, but in full-back bingo it’s pretty much a full house for Goode"

Yep. Healy is an idiot. Always nice to have a reminder[/size]
I think Goode may well make fewer mistakes than Brown. Brown doesn't always choose great supporting running lines, and he's thrown his fair share of passes into touch. Goode's not bad under the high ball but Brown is more likely to turn his possession into attack. Brown is similar in that respect to Dan Luger (Bill Maclaren once said tackling Luger was like tackling a bag of coat hangers).

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:12 pm

I really rate Goode but I think Healey is being over generous in his praise here.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:22 pm

I feel that Goode has seriously improved under the high ball in the last few years, whilst Brown is not as good as he was. Goode tends to get quite a bit higher which makes catching the ball easier, but can mean he gets flattened when he lands (though he does win penalties too.) Brown jumps with a flatter trajectory so when he catches it has a lot of forward momentum - though detractors would say he needs that as he always goes into contact and rarely even looks for supporting runners. Goode's positioning and reading of the game is superior I feel too.

If we were picking a team to win the AP or ERC I would pick Goode over Brown every day of the week.

But we are not, and as someone else will surely point out - perhaps the real answer lies elsewhere.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:44 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:"..."in some ways that is pretty astonishing because when you compare them like for like, you would say Goode has got the better kicking game, is better under the high ball, has got better feet and makes fewer mistakes. Brown is more physical, but in full-back bingo it’s pretty much a full house for Goode"

Yep. Healy is an idiot. Always nice to have a reminder[/size]
I think Goode may well make fewer mistakes than Brown. Brown doesn't always choose great supporting running lines, and he's thrown his fair share of passes into touch. Goode's not bad under the high ball but Brown is more likely to turn his possession into attack. Brown is similar in that respect to Dan Luger (Bill Maclaren once said tackling Luger was like tackling a bag of coat hangers).


I agree Fr ..Which parts of that are idiotic?

Goode is certainly the better footballer of the two. Brown is the better runner and "spikier". I guess you could argue that Browns been excellent at contesting 50/50 high balls, but its not like hes the complete full back and bettr than Goode at everything.
The criticism of Goode has been around his pace and tackling, which are not the core skills from a traditional fullback.
Id maybe disagree that its "pretty much a full house for Goode" but he does tick the boxes on catching, kicking and reading the game. The thing is we tend to notice the running stats much more, and expect full baks to be wingers with a kicking game now rather than kickers who can run a bit.

Look I dont dispute that Brown should be first choice, just that its not out and out idiotic to say that Goode scores highly on many of the core skills of a traditional fullback role which and perhaps the areas that Browns weakest in.

In some ways its nice to have the choice of two very different players, although it does mean you dont always have a direct like for like change on the table.

Maybe it shows how benhind the curve Jones has been by not picking Goode previously Whistle

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:51 pm

LondonTiger wrote:

But we are not, and as someone else will surely point out - perhaps the real answer lies elsewhere.

Is Haley not the one everyone is looking at.

Im not convinced Hammersley will make the next step up.

But that young lad at Worcester - is it Shilcott? He played against us and looked a serious prospect...and it appears he's matched that level of performance against other sides ...

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:54 pm

If you are in front of the curve, does it also not miss you?

Tricky buggers these curves. Perhaps you need to be on the curve, (See Cips with Kelly Brook?) but always on the lookout for any hidden surprises (See Cips with Larissa Summers - allegedly)

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Post by cascough on Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:03 pm

There's that bloody curve again!

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Post by beshocked on Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:06 pm

no 7 & 1/2 you think Morgan played well in the RWC?

Goode is a popular player with pundits like Healey and Greenwood because he's got a great rugby brain.

Goode has suffered due to both Lancaster and Jones wanting to use a more creative centre at 12.

I find it strange that Jones would play Ford,Farrell and Goode in the same backline.


Also the perceptions of poor tackling and lack of pace, if Goode is to change perceptions he needs to take any chances given to him.


Goode has been in better form than Brown in the last two seasons in club rugby but Alex Goode needs to step up at international level.


Looking at other teams like Hogg vs Australia, people praised his performance but I felt he didn't give enough control to Scotland from full back. Especially in the 2nd half.

I guess it comes down to many people loving fast athletic players with a rugby brain being optional.


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Post by Gooseberry on Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:06 pm

If its momentum that causes the curve its ok to grasp the ball ahead of it.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:14 pm

Certainly don't think he was poor before being forced off. Quality player, but like a few others the injuries mean he's not going to fulfil what he could have.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:15 pm

Gooseberry wrote:If its momentum that causes the curve its ok to grasp the ball ahead of it.

What is the recommended angle of approach to grasp the ball ahead of the curve?

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:17 pm

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 you think Morgan played well in the RWC?

Goode is a popular player with pundits like Healey and Greenwood because he's got a great rugby brain.

Goode has suffered due to both Lancaster and Jones wanting to use a more creative centre at 12.


Also the perceptions of poor tackling and lack of pace, if Goode is to change perceptions he needs to take any chances given to him.


Goode has been in better form than Brown in the last two seasons in club rugby but Alex Goode needs to step up at international level.

Against my better judgement Im going to agree again. Goode is loved by coaches and pundits because he does the stuff that most of us armchair fans dont see or understand well. What he doesnt do is look like Jason Robinson with the ball in hand, but then Robinson was always better used on the wing that at fullbak IMO.


In terms of "other options" the matchday side cover for fullback has often been guys like Nowell and Watson; both currently unavailable. May too was touted as a possible fullback in his early days, but seems more settled as a wing for England with his pace and ability to skin defenders being his primary attribute. Daly is another option, but it appears his future is at center. The other capped full back is Pennell (Lancaster too far ahead of the curve on that one perhaps), whos name got flashed around a bit last year too...but again hes missed a lot of the season injured and likley any chance of stepping up.
Mike Haley was in the EPS, but apparently hasnt done enough to get in the frame to ahead of Goode...no great shock really.

So yes really there isnt a lot of challenge for Goode amongst the core squad currently despite there being a lot of players who could play fullback. He comes in with a bag of experience, and as an excellent club lvel player. Its hardly a shocking pick ...its not like hes been stuck on the wing!



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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:22 pm

Jones will have checked Morgan over. If he thinks he's in good enough shape to play tomorrow then I think that's safe to say he is.

Plus Harrison may cover 8 after half time etc....

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:25 pm

Shame Clifford is out. He could have been so well set after this lot of matches.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:27 pm

Yeah Clifford has definitely missed out. But maybe Harrison may seize the chance if gets a run tomorrow and shows up well.
After Australia...he certainly knows what he needs to do!

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Post by beshocked on Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:29 pm

To be fair there are certain players who you'll never admit had a bad game. Ford and May spring to mind.

If you want to believe that Morgan's never been poor, well... okay..

I didn't watch the game vs SA but it was good to hear May scored a try. I want all players to play well for England. If May can change my perception of him then great.

I have to say I was impressed Youngs put his poor club form behind him to be man of the match. It does show that sometimes club form is not always the best indicator.

Shows the importance of exploiting a weakness in the opposition too.

Londontiger I hope Morgan signs for Tigers and I hope Cockerill can improve him as a player.

I've always thought that Tigers need to replace Crane. A rejuvenated Morgan could fill that role.

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Post by beshocked on Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:46 pm

Gooseberry to be fair even I admit Goode has not has been anywhere near as effective at international level as club level.

People call it jink jink smash and whilst there is an element of truth in that Goode has had limited game time for England in the last two years.

Perhaps Goode will have the same woes as in the past but there is the hope that Goode is an improved player even since that game in Ireland in 2015.

People forget that Brown has been a relatively late bloomer - becoming a fixture in the England side under Lancaster at the age of 27.

You say Goode hasn't had much challenge from other 15s but at club level, Goode is arguably the best full back in Europe. Just looking exclusively at club level, Goode can't do much more.

I obviously watch him a lot and consistently I think he's one of the best players in the Saracens team. That's in a side that has multiple international players.

Again it comes back to - does good club form mean much when it comes to internationals?

You could argue perhaps not.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:58 pm

When is the team named...once the fitness tests are completed on the 3 doubters?

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:00 pm

Id also look at what Jones has said his approach to this game would be : "We don’t want to have a kava party, we want to eat fish and chips, so we will be making sure we eat fish and chips on Saturday. Stick it up your jumper, kick and clap. I love fish and chips"

BS questions having 2.5 fly halves in a side together (plus Youngs who has redicsovered his kicking game) and possibly May on the wing. Kicking and handling, and a physical pack. Its tailor made for Mr Reliable at fullback.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:01 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:When is the team named...once the fitness tests are completed on the 3 doubters?

Its 6 apparently.

they are asaying Friday morning now.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:09 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Id also look at what Jones has said his approach to this game would be : "We don’t want to have a kava party, we want to eat fish and chips, so we will be making sure we eat fish and chips on Saturday. Stick it up your jumper, kick and clap. I love fish and chips"

BS questions having 2.5 fly halves in a side together (plus Youngs who has redicsovered his kicking game) and possibly May on the wing. Kicking and handling, and a physical pack. Its tailor made for Mr Reliable at fullback.

Yeah in an interview he made it quite clear he wasn't interested in playing glorified 7's against Fiji. He said he wanted to play a game that will bore the Fijians senseless and smash them.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:10 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:When is the team named...once the fitness tests are completed on the 3 doubters?

Its 6 apparently.

they are asaying Friday morning now.

So whos the 6?

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:12 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:When is the team named...once the fitness tests are completed on the 3 doubters?

Its 6 apparently.

they are asaying Friday morning now.

So whos the 6?

List I found was Vunipola, Hughes, May, Wood, Daly, Brown. Although some of those might be full on "ruled out" already.

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Post by Cyril on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:13 pm

The Beeb has the squad up now.

England: A Goode, S Rokoduguni, J Joseph, O Farrell, E Daly, G Ford, B Youngs; M Vunipola, D Hartley, D Cole, J Launchbury, C Lawes, C Robshaw, T Harrison, B Vunipola.

Replacements: J George, J Marler, K Sinckler, C Ewels, N Hughes, D Care, B Te'o, H Slade.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38024218

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:15 pm

Well that just goes to show (again) you cant trust a word that Jones says!

I bet theyll be having a Kava party Friday morning instead.

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Post by Poorfour on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:16 pm

Stuart Barnes did an interesting piece once on players who showed great club form but hadn't quite cut it at international level. I think he may have used Ryan Lamb (this was a few years ago when he was in form) as an example.

He showed a number of clips of smart plays Lamb had made at club level, and then slowed them down and showed just a moment of hesitation before making the play. His argument was basically that at international level that extra moment is fatal, because the game is played so much faster.

I think Goode falls into the same category. His skills and vision make him an excellent club level player, but he's for international level he's a fraction too slow to commit.

Brown's game is much simpler, but like Billy's it's one thing to know what he'll do an another one to stop it. As he's getting older, though, he's less certain of breaking tackles and will need to make more use of fixing his man and passing. It looked last week as if Eddie had been working on that - May's try came from nicely timed passes by Brown and Yarde. Still more to do, though
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Post by Gooseberry on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:19 pm

Cyril wrote:The Beeb has the squad up now.

England: A Goode, S Rokoduguni, J Joseph, O Farrell, E Daly, G Ford, B Youngs; M Vunipola, D Hartley, D Cole, J Launchbury, C Lawes, C Robshaw, T Harrison, B Vunipola.

Replacements: J George, J Marler, K Sinckler, C Ewels, N Hughes, D Care, B Te'o, H Slade.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38024218

Hang on so we have a full back/ center on the wing, a fly half in the center, and two centers on the bench. 4 players who could play fly half in the side.
Its a thing.

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Post by cascough on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:21 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Well that just goes to show (again) you cant trust a word that Jones says!

I bet theyll be having a Kava party Friday morning instead.

??

I think he's made the tactical change he wanted in bringing in Goode but then it seems like injuries have forced him to make other changes he probably didn't want to, so he has then looked for continuity where possible? What are you seeing?

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:22 pm

Well once we pummel them up front and they get bored, we will start the fireworks in the backs.

Ill be VERY interested in Harrisons performance. He needs a massive game...but he could really put himself in a great position if he does!

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Post by lostinwales on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:28 pm

Poorfour wrote:Stuart Barnes did an interesting piece once on players who showed great club form but hadn't quite cut it at international level. I think he may have used Ryan Lamb (this was a few years ago when he was in form) as an example.

He showed a number of clips of smart plays Lamb had made at club level, and then slowed them down and showed just a moment of hesitation before making the play. His argument was basically that at international level that extra moment is fatal, because the game is played so much faster.

I think Goode falls into the same category. His skills and vision make him an excellent club level player, but he's for international level he's a fraction too slow to commit.

Brown's game is much simpler, but like Billy's it's one thing to know what he'll do an another one to stop it. As he's getting older, though, he's less certain of breaking tackles and will need to make more use of fixing his man and passing. It looked last week as if Eddie had been working on that - May's try came from nicely timed passes by Brown and Yarde. Still more to do, though

Very interesting what you have to say, because I have no confidence that Goode will beat the first man when running the ball back for England - and this may be why.

To his credit AH did talk a little about the other things that Brown brings to the team (all the snarling aggression). I think its a very valuable thing for the team as a whole. He's quite the talisman.

I do feel that Brown won't be around for too much longer and am hoping that Haley will be the answer, because we do need an 'answer' for the long term and I don't think Goode is it.

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Post by propdavid_london on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:28 pm

Yarde must have really F-up in training! May presumably is being eased back in as its still only a short time from injury.
I am not sure how much Daly has played on the wing before though - He isn't likely to be opposite Nadolo is he?

There is a lot of experimentation here - but for many of us its quite unexpected.
Harrison is given another chance in all but a lower pressure game. Slade and Teo coming on have the ability to completely change the way England play if needed.
I fully expect the bench to have more time than last week.

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Post by BamBam on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:30 pm

Nadolo plays left wing so will be up against Roko

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Post by propdavid_london on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:30 pm

How old is Goode and Brown? I didn't think there was that much of an age gap?

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Post by lostinwales on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:31 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well once we pummel them up front and they get bored, we will start the fireworks in the backs.

Ill be VERY interested in Harrisons performance. He needs a massive game...but he could really put himself in a great position if he does!

It is certainly a huge opportunity to get up to speed for international level in a game that doesn't matter (but against some guys with serious beef and skills). Looking on the other side if he fails he could find it very hard to get back into the squad.

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Post by beshocked on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:32 pm

You might laugh at me but I would have started May instead of Daly! I don't see the logic of putting Daly on the wing, especially as he seemed to have been struggling for fitness. If May played well vs SA I would have stuck with him. Of course if May was unfit though....

Poorfour Goode is a far superior player to Lamb though. Goode has performed in many high pressure games. He's also much more consistent.

I would say Andy Goode is a fairer player to compare Alex Goode to. Andy Goode has been a stellar club performer but never really hit the heights for England and obviously he's never been a specimen of peak physical fitness.

propdavid in london - Brown 31, Goode 28


I think the Fijians will certainly test Alex Goode's physical attributes so I think it's a good test. Fijians might not be known for their organisation but athleticism is something they pride themselves on. Alex has at club level been very good at punishing loose kicking so any from the Fijians could be punished too.


Last edited by beshocked on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

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