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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 02 Dec 2016, 12:16 pm

First topic message reminder :

Funniest thing to happen in years. Have been following the craziness on the FT. Despite the implications if our current crop of retards manage to push it through I can't remember when I've read the news everyday without fail and learned something new. What does everyone think of the possibility that we stay in the single market, retain freedom of movement. Pay into the EU coffers and lose our vote ??


Last edited by ShahenshahG on Fri 02 Dec 2016, 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 22 Dec 2016, 3:22 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Wages for the masses are going down in real-terms. That much is very well-documented.

The Post Office workers show the disconnect most starkly. These are people that work for a body that used to be public, was sold off and now they're having to deal with worsening conditions while being berated by the political elite.

May has absolutely no idea and she comes across as quite a nasty piece of work.

She is okay......Anyone that kicks Osborne out without offering him a job can't be all bad.....

Anyone who can stay at the Home office for six years without getting sacked can't be too incompetent either..

However she is lacking in charisma and we are in the age of personality politics....

My guess is Corbyn goes next year and if Labour choose wisely they could be back in the game..

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 22 Dec 2016, 3:26 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Corbyn hasn't cut any leads. Total baloney.

"Let's ignore 9 out of 10 results because I've found 1 that I like!"

Labour have been totally blitzed in the last couple of by-elections.

Copeland in January will be massive - a real show of how far the party may have fallen with Captain Commie in charge.

With all due respect...When the same poll that had him 14 points down has him 6 it is silly to say he hasn't cut any leads.....

He's cut the lead in more than one poll also...If you do your research....Opinion and Ipsos to name 2..

May's unfavorability ratings have slipped under 50%...Which is probably why..

I won't vote for Labour under Corbyn....So saying I've found one I like is factually incorrect also.....

But I applaud consistency and you are certainly consistent..

Try to be less vociferous until you get your facts right mate.....I tend to back my opinions up..

But I'm glad to see your posting again........It's always a pleasure..


Hardly ever seen you 'back up' an opinion on here.

Here's 'back up': http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/

Covers every poll going - Tory lead not slipped below double figures any time recently bar one poll once which is largely dismissed as methodology based as it has continually understated the Tory lead found in other polls.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 22 Dec 2016, 3:30 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Wages for the masses are going down in real-terms. That much is very well-documented.

The Post Office workers show the disconnect most starkly. These are people that work for a body that used to be public, was sold off and now they're having to deal with worsening conditions while being berated by the political elite.

May has absolutely no idea and she comes across as quite a nasty piece of work.

Real terms?

It's 2016 not 2014 when that was true (thanks only to do with higher inflation, nominal wage growth was still there).

PO workers aren't suffering worsening conditions. It's people like you that make out every non-City worker, particularly those in current or ex-public sector, are in Victorian workhouses all of a sudden. PO workers are just retail workers like any other.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 22 Dec 2016, 3:37 pm

Toppy my old darling.... Dec 18 opinion has a single digit lead...

Check it out...

Ipsos makes 2.

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Post by Pr4wn on Thu 22 Dec 2016, 3:40 pm

Ah yes, the mass selling-off of public assets and workers to the private sector has been nothing but fantastic for everyone involved. Just look at the railways, energy suppliers and now the post office.

Can't wait until they sell the land registry too.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 22 Dec 2016, 4:38 pm

Sorry, I forgot there is a massive benefit to everyone by keeping people wrapped up in the cossetted overpaid public sector where they can do as little as possible for as much money as the Unions can blackmail.

Yeh, that's really working well......

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 22 Dec 2016, 4:46 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Toppy my old darling.... Dec 18 opinion has a single digit lead...

Check it out...

Ipsos makes 2.

18 Dec - Opinium - 7 pts
15 Dec - Ipsos Mori - 11 pts
13 Dec - ICM - 14 pts
9 Dec - YouGov - 17 pts
21 Nov - ICM - 14 pts
21 Nov - Opinium - 12 pts
21 Nov - YouGov - 14 pts
1 Nov - ICM - 16 pts
1 Nov - BMG - 14 pts

Those dates are as per the article dates at the website provided. It also sets out this, which may overlap, and extends back further into October:

20 Nov 42 28 9 11 Con +14
18 Nov 41 29 7 12 Con +12
15 Nov 42 28 8 11 Con +14
14 Nov 42 33 10 7 Con +9
4 Nov 40 32 6 13 Con +8
1 Nov 41 27 10 11 Con +14
30 Oct 43 27 8 12 Con +16
25 Oct 40 27 11 11 Con +13
24 Oct 42 28 8 12 Con +14
21 Oct 39 30 6 13 Con +9
20 Oct 42 26 8 12 Con +16
17 Oct 47 29 7 6 Con +18
12 Oct 42 28 9 11 Con +14
9 Oct 43 26 8 11 Con +1


Yes, certain evidence Tory lead is crumbling/Corbyn is suddenly no longer turgid & toxic among the electorate.....

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Post by Pr4wn on Thu 22 Dec 2016, 5:02 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:Sorry, I forgot there is a massive benefit to everyone by keeping people wrapped up in the cossetted overpaid public sector where they can do as little as possible for as much money as the Unions can blackmail.

Yeh, that's really working well......

Evidence please. The decline in service in the energy, rail and now the Post Office is there for all to see. I mean, the wealth disparity is worse than it's ever been in the UK. Impoverishing workers is bad for the economy as a whole, you must know that.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 22 Dec 2016, 5:08 pm

Impoverishing workers? Behave. Paying railworkers top 10% in the country salaries benefits nobody but them.

Wealth disparity is more about house price growth than wages or public vs private sector.

Haven't noticed any decline in the PO service personally. It's a dying and out-dated service.

Can only imagine people like you are two young to remember what any of those things were like when in public ownership (whilst ignoring how awfully run every service still in public ownership is).

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Post by Pr4wn on Thu 22 Dec 2016, 5:09 pm

I should also remind that you unions "blackmailed" their way to getting you that paid leave that you enjoy every year, that paid sick leave that you have used in the past, the safe working conditions that prevent you from being hurt at work and the pension that you will no-doubt use in your old age.

If your lovely fat-cat Tory bosses had their way, workers wouldn't get any of these things.

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Post by Pr4wn on Thu 22 Dec 2016, 5:13 pm

Salary disparity is also at its highest, so you're talking rubbish as usual. Those at the top are taking it all, the figures back this up. Why you're trying to sweep this under the carpet is beyond me.

I'm two years younger than you, so I'm not two (sic) young to remember any of that. I just object massively to the levels of service at rip-off prices that the UK public see from their rail and energy services.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 11 Jan 2017, 2:22 pm

Anyone had a look at Andrew Lillico''s argument for post Brexit optimism?

https://www.ft.com/content/c938bb10-d71d-11e6-944b-e7eb37a6aa8e

Leaving won’t be economically painless. Businesses have invested in the UK on the basis that it is a member of the EU. We should, therefore, expect most current businesses to oppose leaving. That is a poor measure of the economic opportunity, though, because many of the businesses that will gain from leaving do not exist yet or could not know that they will benefit.

This was his contribution in February 2016

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Post by ShahenshahG on Sun 15 Jan 2017, 1:28 pm

So... the race to the bottom begins.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 9:05 am

Not to worry Shah, we haven't got a long way to go before hitting the bottom...
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Post by SecretFly on Mon 16 Jan 2017, 12:02 pm

So poor Andrews efforts at putting a post New Year's Day smile on the faces of the masses hasn't worked?

Oh Dear...well, economists were never the best comedians anyway.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 12:53 pm

I'm still happy...even more so after the PMs speech yesterday.

Only thing I don't believe is her insistence on getting, "the best possible access to the single market", as part of our exit deal.

I'd be even happier if she'd just admit we'll have to negotiate a new trade agreement with the EU.

Other than that, her 12-point plan was largely music to my ears, (recap below for those of you who missed, or have already forgotten it).

Brexit - Page 3 PMs%2012-Point%20Brexit%20Plan%2017%2001%2017_zpsuv14hxva
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Post by SecretFly on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 1:01 pm

Thanks for that synopsis, dyre.  I didn't get to hear the speech.

So in short, it appears to me that her 12-point plan could be summed up in a final 13th Point:

We will prove there is no need for an EU within Europe.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 2:07 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:Only thing I don't believe is her insistence on getting, "the best possible access to the single market", as part of our exit deal.

I'd be even happier if she'd just admit we'll have to negotiate a new trade agreement with the EU.

That's exactly what she said. We will have to negotiate a new trade agreement with the EU that gives us the best possible access to the single market (i.e. as cheap/free trade deal as possible with the EU bloc).

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 5:41 pm

That's what you're getting Dyre, and countries are lining up to f*ck Britain in the a*se once we revert to WTO rules, because even if we get the FTA with EU it means we still have to renegotiate with all the countries the EU has a deal with. This will inevitably be less that what we already had because we're less attractive as a 60m market rather than a 500m one. We've surrendered our sovereignty in a way no treaty could have taken from us as we scrap and scramble our rules to make the UK attractive to business again.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 6:05 pm

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/fox-suffers-south-africa-trade-setback-wwv0jzpff

We've gained the illusion of sovereignty which will be sacrificed at the altar of necessity at each and every turn.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 6:19 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:That's what you're getting Dyre, and countries are lining up to f*ck Britain in the a*se once we revert to WTO rules, because even if we get the FTA with EU it means we still have to renegotiate with all the countries the EU has a deal with. This will inevitably be less that what we already had because we're less attractive as a 60m market rather than a 500m one. We've surrendered our sovereignty in a way no treaty could have taken from us as we scrap and scramble our rules to make the UK attractive to business again.

Is not the EU itself not less attractive now too - given the jolt in confidence it has been given by such a central character (the UK) just choosing to Leave?  Do the remaining big four (Germany, France, Italy and Spain) look forward to funding this combined EU admin experiment now without the sizeable support of the UK and with a currency still trying to juggle itself through crisis after crisis for as long as it has been in existence?  

The problem of optics that I see is that the EU pretends to believe that nothing has changed for it whilst everything has changed for the citizens of the UK.  60 million people leaving the project in one go is marketed by many EU Government leaders and Brussels bureaucrats as 'nothing we can't handle.  We can live without them'.
Meanwhile though, the strains are very real, very evident and it's an effort for them all to keep up the pretence smiles and 'business-as-usual' poker-faces.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 6:25 pm

SecretFly wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:That's what you're getting Dyre, and countries are lining up to f*ck Britain in the a*se once we revert to WTO rules, because even if we get the FTA with EU it means we still have to renegotiate with all the countries the EU has a deal with. This will inevitably be less that what we already had because we're less attractive as a 60m market rather than a 500m one. We've surrendered our sovereignty in a way no treaty could have taken from us as we scrap and scramble our rules to make the UK attractive to business again.

Is not the EU itself not less attractive now too - given the jolt in confidence it has been given by such a central character (the UK) just choosing to Leave?  Do the remaining big four (Germany, France, Italy and Spain) look forward to funding this combined EU admin experiment now without the sizeable support of the UK and with a currency still trying to juggle itself through crisis after crisis for as long as it has been in existence?  

The problem of optics that I see is that the EU pretends to believe that nothing has changed for it whilst everything has changed for the citizens of the UK.  60 million people leaving the project in one go is marketed by many EU Government leaders and Brussels bureaucrats as 'nothing we can't handle.  We can live without them'.
Meanwhile though, the strains are very real, very evident and it's an effort for them all to keep up the pretence smiles and 'business-as-usual' poker-faces.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hard-brexit-no-latest-soft-eu-referendum-donald-tusk-theresa-may-britain-a7360406.html

No one is pretending that except people who can't tell their a*ses from their elbows. The mood is grim in europe, but they know UK's exit might lead to the breakup of the union, but capitulating to May/trump will definitely end the EU. I'm more concerned for the UK tbh seeing as I live here.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 6:36 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hard-brexit-no-latest-soft-eu-referendum-donald-tusk-theresa-may-britain-a7360406.html

No one is pretending that except people who can't tell their a*ses from their elbows. The mood is grim in europe, but they know UK's exit might lead to the breakup of the union, but capitulating to May/trump will definitely end the EU. I'm more concerned for the UK tbh seeing as I live here.

There you go. And that's a negotiating position of weakness for the UK?
So May...or maybe Boris is the better option here Whistle ... might easily say: "Hey, let me remind those of you around this table too arrogant to see this, but you guys aren't exactly left with a Utopia here. You have major problems now down the line (good deal or bad deal for us) - and it's much better to have an influential neighbour that might want to lend a hand to assist rather than one sneering in the background and muttering something about 'karma'."

I'm like you though, I'm more concerned for my Nation rather than this thing called the EU. The EU will eventually have to hold its hands up and say it is and was the wrong model for cooperation of the Nations of this continent. Back to the drawing board.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 6:47 pm

SecretFly wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hard-brexit-no-latest-soft-eu-referendum-donald-tusk-theresa-may-britain-a7360406.html

No one is pretending that except people who can't tell their a*ses from their elbows. The mood is grim in europe, but they know UK's exit might lead to the breakup of the union, but capitulating to May/trump will definitely end the EU. I'm more concerned for the UK tbh seeing as I live here.

There you go.  And that's a negotiating position of weakness for the UK?  
So May...or maybe Boris is the better option here  Whistle  ... might easily say: "Hey, let me remind those of you around this table too arrogant to see this, but you guys aren't exactly left with a Utopia here.  You have major problems now down the line (good deal or bad deal for us) - and it's much better to have an influential neighbour that might want to lend a hand to assist rather than one sneering in the background and muttering something about 'karma'."

I'm like you though, I'm more concerned for my Nation rather than this thing called the EU.  The EU will eventually have to hold its hands up and say it is and was the wrong model for cooperation of the Nations of this continent.  Back to the drawing board.

Have you seen Boris's latest act of diplomatic skill? Team Trump has also directly decided to take the EU head on, and UK is seen as Trump's bitch. Ideally yes, they would prefer to keep good relations with the UK but not if the UK is complicit with Donald the rump actively seeking it's destruction.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 6:57 pm

Do you live in the ROI?

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 7:24 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hard-brexit-no-latest-soft-eu-referendum-donald-tusk-theresa-may-britain-a7360406.html

No one is pretending that except people who can't tell their a*ses from their elbows. The mood is grim in europe, but they know UK's exit might lead to the breakup of the union, but capitulating to May/trump will definitely end the EU. I'm more concerned for the UK tbh seeing as I live here.

There you go.  And that's a negotiating position of weakness for the UK?  
So May...or maybe Boris is the better option here  Whistle  ... might easily say: "Hey, let me remind those of you around this table too arrogant to see this, but you guys aren't exactly left with a Utopia here.  You have major problems now down the line (good deal or bad deal for us) - and it's much better to have an influential neighbour that might want to lend a hand to assist rather than one sneering in the background and muttering something about 'karma'."

I'm like you though, I'm more concerned for my Nation rather than this thing called the EU.  The EU will eventually have to hold its hands up and say it is and was the wrong model for cooperation of the Nations of this continent.  Back to the drawing board.

Have you seen Boris's latest act of diplomatic skill? Team Trump has also directly decided to take the EU head on, and UK is seen as Trump's bitch. Ideally yes, they would prefer to keep good relations with the UK but not if the UK is complicit with Donald the rump actively seeking it's destruction.

Any potential end of an EU isn't the end of Europe.  Europe is Europe without Brussels or Strasburg.  How often I say this but how difficult to make people appreciate that.  So being anti-EU is simply being anti the model chosen - not to be anti-mutual cooperation in trade, travel and fraternity with other European nations.  For over thirty years I've been saying the model is wrong and voting accordingly through those years - and yes, we Irish (Republic) have had many opportunities to go to the old referendums.  Cool

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Post by Muscular-mouse on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 11:24 pm

Here is what I see with Brexit. Main 2 reasons people say they want to leave the EU is to reduce immigration and create our own laws.

Immigration will largely remain the same as there is a shortage of workers in this country. Hence why we have record numbers of immigrants arriving here but we have the lowest unemployment figures in decades.

If we left the EU the Government would still let a large amount of immigrants in because we need them. Hence why non-eu migration is still at record high numbers even though we have control over that.

Controlling our own laws I personally don't see any difference. I think 95% of EU laws would be created by a uk government anyway such as workers rights and sick pay, holiday pay, maternity and paternity leave and laws on emissions etc etc

When I ask people what EU laws they don't like most don't think of an answer and say its just the principle and some say the fishing laws which regulate fishing but as far as I am aware those laws were brought in to control the number of fish being killed as certain fish numbers were getting to a dangerous low.

SO when we leave the EU the issues brexit supporters wanted will largely not change the way they want it. Immigration will remain high and yes the UK will create its own laws 100 percent but those laws will basically be identical to any EU laws that are created.

However I do believe the economy will be hit, and with a weak economy will come job losses and with job losses will mean less money in tax so less money spent on schools and the nhs and the railways and everything else etc

I also think it will signal the break up of the UK as Nicola sturgeon will win an independence referendum and that is not good news for the uk.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 18 Jan 2017, 11:58 pm

Musclular-mouse wrote:

SO when we leave the EU the issues brexit supporters wanted will largely not change the way they want it. Immigration will remain high and yes the UK will create its own laws 100 percent but those laws will basically be identical to any EU laws that are created.


And you could go back further and say that Europe (Germany, France, Italy etc) itself had to re-learn how to be modernly democratic by using the examples from the US and the UK after WW2.  Yes?

I'm not so sure how far I'd go with the suggestion (and I'm not saying you are alone in the theory) that the EU as a whole fundamentally teaches the rest of us as individual Nations how to be good, open, tolerant, moral or business savvy people or that we've all become much more adept at both by being in this grand law giving superclub.

A westernised Democratic nation will always levitate towards similar kinds of laws that will mimic other westernised democratic nations.  The particular selection of laws themselves help define the very idea of westernised democracy.  That's scant argument though for saying that the citizens of the UK should wait around for majority EU opinion (that might never arrive) when and if they want to change or modify some of their own laws.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 10:02 am

SecretFly wrote:
Musclular-mouse wrote:

SO when we leave the EU the issues brexit supporters wanted will largely not change the way they want it. Immigration will remain high and yes the UK will create its own laws 100 percent but those laws will basically be identical to any EU laws that are created.


I'm not so sure how far I'd go with the suggestion (and I'm not saying you are alone in the theory) that the EU as a whole fundamentally teaches the rest of us as individual Nations how to be good, open, tolerant, moral or business savvy people or that we've all become much more adept at both by being in this grand law giving superclub.


That isn't what he said.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 11:24 am

It is what he said.  If you don't want to or can't discuss the subtleties of the English Language - your language - then that's your limiting problem Top, not mine.

His point was that nothing much will change for Brexiteers when the final solution is reached.  Immigration will be at the same levels and the UK will have the same laws as the rest of Europe.  Brexiteers will have been wasting their time on a practical governance level.  That conclusion is inferring that the need for 'Leaving' is in practice obsolete.  

I say that in my opinion that is a wrong conclusion.  That you have the same laws running through your system (social, economic, workforce, fishery quotas etc) as those in the EU doesn't in any way imply that there is no fundamental difference in returning those law giving powers directly to Westminster (ie, cutting out the external bureaucrat middleman Wink )  
UK to control its laws and to modify when the electorate demand changes.  
UK to retake full control of its own borders and if immigration is to continue, it will again be UK voters deciding the policy and any modifications into the future.

If it wasn't fundamental change, then there would have been little debate before the referendum and no bitter hangover after it.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 1:05 pm

No, it's not. He said that most of the Brexit voting idiots were complaining about 'EU laws' when in reality most of the laws we're enacting are ones we'd have common sense to enact off our own backs anyway - he never said the EU was some kind of leader in legal thought or that we only do things because the EU leads the way first. (I in fact posted on the main debate previously about all the reems of law Britain actually had LONG before the EU though it was a good idea)

One thing May hasn't touched on is whether leaving the EU will mean extracting ourselves from subservience to the ECHR also (which is a legally seperate construct) and scrapping the HRA for replacement with a British Bill of Rights as previously mooted by Tory manifestos.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 1:14 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:No, it's not. He said that most of the Brexit voting idiots were complaining about 'EU laws' when in reality most of the laws we're enacting are ones we'd have common sense to enact off our own backs anyway - he never said the EU was some kind of leader in legal thought or that we only do things because the EU leads the way first. (I in fact posted on the main debate previously about all the reems of law Britain actually had LONG before the EU though it was a good idea)

One thing May hasn't touched on is whether leaving the EU will mean extracting ourselves from subservience to the ECHR also (which is a legally seperate construct) and scrapping the HRA for replacement with a British Bill of Rights as previously mooted by Tory manifestos.

There you go. You repeat my point but pretend that it's a clarification and a completely different viewpoint. It isn't. The UK doesn't need the EU. If it happens to share LAW commonality, that is because the nations in the heartland of Europe have modified their post WW ways not the other way around. That STILL doesn't argue sufficiently for the UK to continue to dissolve itself into the EU and abdicate its own Law generating power at National level. "But sure, aren't they just like us, so why leave?" Leave because no, they are not just like you. Similarities doesn't mean that you have to be married to each other, just that you get along Wink

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 1:40 pm

Actually I repeated Muscular Mouse's point. Which was my point. Get the point?

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 1:48 pm

Actually, you're a little confused as you try desperately to disagree with me (to keep up the great tradition) whilst grudgingly hinting that I'm right. The EU has nothing to teach the UK on any law and neither has it exactly a noble principled history to keep a 'morally wayward' UK on the straight and narrow either... (even on fishing of all things) Wink
So the argument for staying in? Zilch.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 2:28 pm

SecretFly wrote:Actually, you're a little confused as you try desperately to disagree with me (to keep up the great tradition) whilst grudgingly hinting that I'm right.  The EU has nothing to teach the UK on any law and neither has it exactly a noble principled history to keep a 'morally wayward' UK on the straight and narrow either... (even on fishing of all things) Wink
So the argument for staying in?  Zilch.

Musclular-mouse wrote:I think 95% of EU laws would be created by a uk government anyway

SO when we leave the EU ... the UK will create its own laws 100 percent but those laws will basically be identical to any EU laws that are created.

SecretFly wrote:
I'm not so sure ... that the EU as a whole fundamentally teaches the rest of us ... or that we've all become much more adept at both by being in this grand law giving superclub.

TopHat24/7 wrote:He said ... most of the laws we're enacting are ones we'd have common sense to enact off our own backs anyway - he never said the EU was some kind of leader in legal thought or that we only do things because the EU leads the way first.

So, actually, you wanted to pick a fight whilst actually (I think, your talk like a complete muggle) agreeing with Mouse's fundamental point, just twisted to fit your own rhetoric.

He says the EU doesn't lead or teach us anything, so what's to be gained from leaving as nothing will change.

You say the EU doesn't lead or teach us anything, therefore why bother being part of it.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 3:06 pm

SecretFly wrote:...The EU has nothing to teach the UK on any law and neither has it exactly a noble principled history to keep a 'morally wayward' UK on the straight and narrow either... (even on fishing of all things) Wink
So the argument for staying in?  Zilch.
Impressive. Talk about arrogant. The U.K. has gained nothing legally, at all, from being a part of the E.U.; it's us Brits that've been showing them the way all along and getting them over their barbarian ways. And there was me thinking that was a load of smelly stuff, although maybe that's memories of our beaches in the 70s when we were the 'dirty man of Europe'...
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Post by SecretFly on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 3:11 pm

(to Hat) It was still an Argu-ment -that-had-as-it's-framework-the-idea-that-there-was-little-or-no-practical-advantage-in-leaving-the-EU.

Geddih?  Cool   

I say the argument is wrong in my opinion, as what IS gained is the regaining National control over law (both social and business)

Or to quote you:

"He says the EU doesn't lead or teach us in anything, so what's to be gained from leaving as nothing will change"

I say "the EU doesn't lead or teach in anything, therefore why bother being part of it".

Only one of those angles works on a logical footing.   What's to be gained from leaving?  The potential ability to lead and teach?  

I say the difference between being a full member of the EU and being outside that full membership club is Profound.  Therefore I advocate for that profundity of difference.  Like I said, just because you agree on many things doesn't mean you have to marry.  Just be friends.  Then you can watch your own programmes on your own TV in your own home. Wink


Last edited by SecretFly on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 3:14 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
SecretFly wrote:...The EU has nothing to teach the UK on any law and neither has it exactly a noble principled history to keep a 'morally wayward' UK on the straight and narrow either... (even on fishing of all things) Wink
So the argument for staying in?  Zilch.
Impressive. Talk about arrogant. The U.K. has gained nothing legally, at all, from being a part of the E.U.; it's us Brits that've been showing them the way all along and getting them over their barbarian ways. And there was me thinking that was a load of smelly stuff, although maybe that's memories of our beaches in the 70s when we were the 'dirty man of Europe'...

Oh so it's good for keeping the British hygienic? Well why didn't you say that in the first place. It all makes sense now. Those damn Brexiteers miss the auld days of fleas and smelly socks by the fire.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 4:35 pm

https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/digital-single-market

There's reason enough in itself.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 5:05 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/digital-single-market

There's reason enough in itself.

Doesn't require a party-ised 'parliament' in Brussels with a supposed unified foreign policy, supposed unified defence policy and a supposed guy walking around that we're all meant to regard as our elected European 'President' etc.  It's the needless tendrils that have to be watched more carefully.  

Business is business, and the EU will continue to fight for the idea that it is essential to the welfare and prosperity of the Nations involved. Of course it will.  There are many people in the bureaucratic inner circle (MEPs and Lobbyists etc) that have a lot to gain and a lot to lose.  But the EU isn't essential.  It's simply a brand struggling for market share and relevance.
Let's all try another brand like we might choose a new phone company Wink  Over to Ms Le Pen.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 5:34 pm

SecretFly wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/digital-single-market

There's reason enough in itself.

Doesn't require a party-ised 'parliament' in Brussels with a supposed unified foreign policy, supposed unified defence policy and a supposed guy walking around that we're all meant to regard as our elected European 'President' etc.  It's the needless tendrils that have to be watched more carefully.  

Business is business, and the EU will continue to fight for the idea that it is essential to the welfare and prosperity of the Nations involved. Of course it will.  There are many people in the bureaucratic inner circle (MEPs and Lobbyists etc) that have a lot to gain and a lot to lose.  But the EU isn't essential.  It's simply a brand struggling for market share and relevance.
Let's all try another brand like we might choose a new phone company Wink  Over to Ms Le Pen.

No, that I agree with - it's just that this brand is doing a fecking good job of it albeit quite slowly and if there was an alternate brand promising the same thing then fair enough that's something to look at. But there isn't and there probably won't be for a while so our opt out from the ever closer union was good enough, and our veto which kept us from having to integrate more than we wanted to. Now we lose all the opt outs and our voice.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 8:52 pm

SecretFly wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
SecretFly wrote:...The EU has nothing to teach the UK on any law and neither has it exactly a noble principled history to keep a 'morally wayward' UK on the straight and narrow either... (even on fishing of all things) Wink
So the argument for staying in?  Zilch.
Impressive. Talk about arrogant. The U.K. has gained nothing legally, at all, from being a part of the E.U.; it's us Brits that've been showing them the way all along and getting them over their barbarian ways. And there was me thinking that was a load of smelly stuff, although maybe that's memories of our beaches in the 70s when we were the 'dirty man of Europe'...

Oh so it's good for keeping the British hygienic?  Well why didn't you say that in the first place.  It all makes sense now.  Those damn Brexiteers miss the auld days of fleas and smelly socks by the fire.
Well, that's not a bad reason... Wink
Seriously though, it's just an example to illustrate that your assertion wasn't really that grounded in reality OK.
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Post by SecretFly on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 9:10 pm

I know, navy. Everything I say has the sticker 'Fake' attached. Wink They look so sexy on plane luggage.

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Post by Muscular-mouse on Thu 19 Jan 2017, 10:16 pm

SecretFly wrote: That STILL doesn't argue sufficiently for the UK to continue to dissolve itself into the EU and abdicate its own Law generating power at National level.  

so I take it you want to leave the EU to take back control. What changes would you make if the uk had full control? which EU laws would you abolish or would you largely keep them as they are.

Is it worth it taking back control when near enough all laws will remain the same but our economy will take a massive hit due to it?

in my opinion the EU vote had nothing to do with EU law, most brexit supporters probably didn't even know that the EU created laws or what laws they created before all the debates. Its only after the debates that brexit supporters became aware that some of the laws passed in the UK were created at EU level but even then from personal experience when I ask 90% of brexit supporters what laws they disagree with most cant even name a single law that has been created let alone that they disagree with. And this is not me calling brexit supporters stupid or anything because a lot of remainers were in the same boat, I think that before the debates no one really knew about EU laws because they were not an issue as the overwhelming majority of the public had no issues with the laws being created so had no need to complain etc. But the brexit camp did a good job of marketing EU law as an 'invasion' of our control and that the UK was being invaded by EU laws which obviously stirred up a lot of nationalism and turned a largely irrelevant point (eu law) into this big battle that British people don't want some French politician or some German politician 'ruling' over us.

In my opinion the brexit supporters voted to leave the EU because they wanted to control immigration. Yes immigration is high but as stated earlier I think it is high because we have a shortage of man power in the uk. We have the lowest unemployment figures for a very long time and that is even with record numbers of migrants arriving here every year. SO those migrants must be taking jobs but also British people must be taking jobs too as unemployment numbers are low.

So leaving the EU wont in my view reduce immigration figures.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 9:49 am

Musclular-mouse wrote:
SecretFly wrote: That STILL doesn't argue sufficiently for the UK to continue to dissolve itself into the EU and abdicate its own Law generating power at National level.  

so I take it you want to leave the EU to take back control. What changes would you make if the uk had full control? which EU laws would you abolish or would you largely keep them as they are.

Is it worth it taking back control when near enough all laws will remain the same but our economy will take a massive hit due to it?

in my opinion the EU vote had nothing to do with EU law, most brexit supporters probably didn't even know that the EU created laws or what laws they created before all the debates. Its only after the debates that brexit supporters became aware that some of the laws passed in the UK were created at EU level but even then from personal experience when I ask 90% of brexit supporters what laws they disagree with most cant even name a single law that has been created let alone that they disagree with. And this is not me calling brexit supporters stupid or anything because a lot of remainers were in the same boat, I think that before the debates no one really knew about EU laws because they were not an issue as the overwhelming majority of the public had no issues with the laws being created so had no need to complain etc. But the brexit camp did a good job of marketing EU law as an 'invasion' of our control and that the UK was being invaded by EU laws which obviously stirred up a lot of nationalism and turned a largely irrelevant point (eu law) into this big battle that British people don't want some French politician or some German politician 'ruling' over us.

In my opinion the brexit supporters voted to leave the EU because they wanted to control immigration. Yes immigration is high but as stated earlier I think it is high because we have a shortage of man power in the uk. We have the lowest unemployment figures for a very long time and that is even with record numbers of migrants arriving here every year. SO those migrants must be taking jobs but also British people must be taking jobs too as unemployment numbers are low.

So leaving the EU wont in my view reduce immigration figures.

Oh dear, a rational intelligent well-considered post.

You have NO PLACE on this forum, Sir.

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Post by Derbymanc on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:04 am

Personally as a Brexit voter, part of it voted for more controls over immigration (and the fact that it should finally open up the ability to have a proper conversation about it) I also think that the EU has stagnated and is no longer cost effective so to speak. We have a bunch of issues in our own country that need sorting and hopefully we'll be able to make a start with building more houses etc soon (it will help revitalise the economy, make more jobs and (again hopefully) be able to teach some of our school leavers a trade.
Whilst it may not happen often, the EU should not have been stepping in to say we can't run our country the way we want and if we want to amend/change/add laws then it should go through our courts/parliament.

Also think the EU holds too much power over other nations and trying to keep everyone on an even keel (money wise etc) means some countries are left behind or will struggle to keep up with the other countries (Greece and Ireland being examples)

Although I agree that the whole debate was an absolute joke and neither side did each other any favoure, it's now time though to band together and work for what will be best for us as a country now. The votes been and passed so lets stop bitching and causing more problems and band together

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:30 am

What has the EU got to do with UK housebuilding?? That's a pure UK failing and down to a tawdry public sector planning system and a OAP-skewed economy and society which allows NIMBYism to special growth & development.

Also, what control or influence does the EU have over our monetary system? Whole reason we didn't enter the Eurozone was to avoid giving up this control. the BOE has exclusive control (and mandate) over interest rates and money flow.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 10:41 am

Derby, you and the pisants who voted for this caused the problem now you fix it. It'll serve you and the miserable old b*stards right if we end up with a Singapore type economy. Unfortunately it won't happen in isolation, already the UK government and press is making it about European punishment and aggression even though all the warlike talk is coming from us. If we don't get a deal Europe and Europeans will be blamed and will suffer the effects of your ignorance. The tory party will get off Scot free for  destroying our country. Nothing will get done by either party because they'll have to sell us out to anyone who waves a fta in front of us.  Especially the US. Ask Australia what a FTA with the US means. All the stuff you think is going to improve isn't because it will be Brexit Brexit Brexit for the next 10 years no matter what deal we get. Swe how theyre askin for the care of the elderly to come though council tax and not general taxation? Thats our future. The major loss will be the access to the DSM.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 11:00 am

Improved care for the elderly should come through scrapping the ridiculous triple pension free for all.

But we'll never get that because the old vote, and they vote Tory, and we'll never have a Labour oppo with Comrade Corbyn using his Momentum-stasi to rig elections.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 20 Jan 2017, 11:04 am

F*ck him, I felt sorry for the amount abuse he was taking even though I didn't agree with him. But now he is actively selling out his own voters to maintain his grip on power he can f*ck off and die. Praying that the supreme Court force the government to put in a white paper and save us from this complete madness. Unlikely but where there is life there is hope.

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