Brexit

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Funniest thing to happen in years. Have been following the craziness on the FT. Despite the implications if our current crop of retards manage to push it through I can't remember when I've read the news everyday without fail and learned something new. What does everyone think of the possibility that we stay in the single market, retain freedom of movement. Pay into the EU coffers and lose our vote ??

Muscular-mouse wrote:I don't think the government are negotiating terribly on purpose, I think the EU was always going to play hard ball as they have all the power.

Me neither, I think they are completely incapable of negotiating effectively even if they tried.

Britain actually has no negotiating position in any case or at least one that can be taken seriously.

They basically want tariff free and unlimited trade with the EU, without accepting any of the regulations or costs associated with being in the EU.  

They either need to swallow their pride and admit the referendum was all a stupid mistake or just leave now with nothing and see how well get on outside the EU.

The problem with the negotiation.........Is the result in June.

May and her merry men expected a landslide....Then May could deliver a reasonably hard Brexit and then have the power to snub her nose at the remainers in her party and give herself five years to win dissenting voters back before 2022.

Unfortunately this Govt hasn't the strength to do anything but stall for time while it figures out a way of placating everybody and keeping its head above water.

ShahenshahG wrote:https://www.ft.com/content/92bb5636-a95b-11e7-ab55-27219df83c97?mhq5j=e7#comments

We won't even be trade on WTO terms anymore, The US has objected to splitting tariffs. Means EU keeps the same TRQ and we have to negotiate for access to other markets. Project fear slowly becoming project reality.

Just to make a clarification this is a future issue not a immediate issue. We can trade under WTO rules under the split quotas but it's likely that the signatories will push for increased quotas and failing that take us to court for damages if they can prove that we've damaged their interests somehow.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The problem with the negotiation.........Is the result in June.

May and her merry men expected a landslide....Then May could deliver a reasonably hard Brexit and then have the power to snub her nose at the remainers in her party and give herself five years to win dissenting voters back before 2022.

Unfortunately this Govt hasn't the strength to do anything but stall for time while it figures out a way of placating everybody and keeping its head above water.

And that pretty much takes us back to why David Cameron's Government went ahead with the referendum.

Cameron can now at least be seen to have united Brexiteers and Remainers in leaving an almighty mess for all.

Whenever Cameron comes up in this sort of conversation, it's worth remembering this glorious tweet:

https://twitter.com/david_cameron/status/595112367358406656?lang=en

He delivered what the country wanted something Labour would have refused to do.

No he delivered what the country thought it wanted which is a different thing entirely. They will find that out soon enough.

It's only different because you disagree with it.

LionsV2 wrote:He delivered what the country wanted something Labour would have refused to do.

Increased tuition fees?

LionsV2 wrote:It's only different because you disagree with it.

No its different because it was purported to be an answer to problems not caused by it, by UkG incompetence or failure to understand. Hence either disaster or humiliation awaits us.

LionsV2 wrote:He delivered what the country wanted something Labour would have refused to do.

"Fear of Ukip is dragging Cameron to the right on Europe"....................Nick Clegg 2013......

More objective posters might see the reason for the referendum right there..

As for the "something Labour would refuse to do"......Try making statements you can prove....

More substance required..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

LionsV2 wrote:He delivered what the country wanted something Labour would have refused to do.

"Fear of Ukip is dragging Cameron to the right on Europe"....................Nick Clegg 2013......

More objective posters might see the reason for the referendum right there..

As for the "something Labour would refuse to do"......Try making statements you can prove....

More substance required..

In the lead up to the 2015 election was it not Labour policy not to have a referendum?

LionsV2 wrote:He delivered what the country wanted something Labour would have refused to do.

Even if the country wanted a referendum, I feel it was Cameron's inability to unite the Conservative Government on Europe and, as per Truss' post, Cameron's fear of UKIP that brought it about.

Cameron should also have recognised that the country wanted or, at least, would soon realise they wanted planning to have been done in advance of a possible Exit vote. By totally failing to deliver on that, he let everyone down and that continues to be his legacy.

Theresa May has told the country to prepare for a no deal brexit if the EU won't budge from their position.

Didn't Theresa May stand on a platform at the last election on the basis the Conservatives were the best party to get the best deal from brexit... so her admitting that a no deal situation is possible really is an indication of just how poor this governments negotiation skills are considering a no deal is the worst deal you can get.

It's a no-win situation now i think MM, if the deal on the table isn't good enough then think we have to walk away from the table, then put feelers out to the EU and do some backroom dealings on what about us coming back to the EU with both sides saving face, then put another referundum out and boom back to where we was.

Teresa May refused to say if she would vote Brexit now.

But hard Brexit is on the table.

Dear oh dear

Muscular-mouse wrote:Theresa May has told the country to prepare for a no deal brexit if the EU won't budge from their position.

Didn't Theresa May stand on a platform at the last election on the basis the Conservatives were the best party to get the best deal from brexit... so her admitting that a no deal situation is possible really is an indication of just how poor this governments negotiation skills are considering a no deal is the worst deal you can get.

Of course they won't budge, what the UK is looking for is ridiculous - they want all the benefits of membership without payment or adhering to any of the rules or principals.

It's the UK that have decided to leave, so the problems they now have in terms of trade and access to the single market to keep the economy afloat as well as the impossible task of imposing customs checks at the Irish border or sea without destroying the peace process are not the EU's problems to resolve, they are entirely the UK's.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Teresa May refused to say if she would vote Brexit now.

To be fair to May, and I'm not her biggest fan by any stretch of the imagination, I'm not sure she could answer there was a good answer to that question that she could give. If she said she'd now vote Leave, she'd be accused of U-turning, poor judgement, etc. and if she said she'd vote Remain, well one can only imagine the reaction from the more "committed" Leavers.

Having said that, May's tendency to (almost) never provide a straight answer to a question, even really quite straightforward ones, is one of those traits I find particularly irritating. For instance, during the GE campaign, after the BBC debate where Rudd stood in for her, she was asked if she'd watched the debate. She answered that she thought Rudd had done very well. She was asked again, and provided the exact same answer. It's almost as if she's so used to avoiding questions that she does so by default.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Teresa May refused to say if she would vote Brexit now.

To be fair to May, and I'm not her biggest fan by any stretch of the imagination, I'm not sure she could answer there was a good answer to that question that she could give. If she said she'd now vote Leave, she'd be accused of U-turning, poor judgement, etc. and if she said she'd vote Remain, well one can only imagine the reaction from the more "committed" Leavers.

Having said that, May's tendency to (almost) never provide a straight answer to a question, even really quite straightforward ones, is one of those traits I find particularly irritating. For instance, during the GE campaign, after the BBC debate where Rudd stood in for her, she was asked if she'd watched the debate. She answered that she thought Rudd had done very well. She was asked again, and provided the exact same answer. It's almost as if she's so used to avoiding questions that she does so by default.

Yes, but ... it would probably have been ok if she could have said she would be content (a May type word) to vote Leave now given the progress made with the Brexit negotiations and how good the future outside the EU looks.

However, she palpably could not say that in the light of the clear failure to meaningfully negotiate anything at this time. Her failure to negotiate what she asked the British electorate to trust her with is her fault. That's not unfair.

John Redwood has some seriously weird tweets this morning, aimed at Hammond and the Treasury. First, he writes that it "backed the losing side" in the referendum, and then that "the Chancellor must get the Treasury to have more realistic, optimistic forecasts & to find the money for a successful economy post Brexit".

The reason the Treasury backed Remain is of course that they thought leaving would make the country worse off economically. So far I would hardly say that has been disproved. The second tweet is even stranger, since it contains an inherent contradiction (realisitc and optimistic are not always compatible), and then seems to admit that for the economy to be successful post Brexit, we're going to have to pump lots of money into it.

Problem with Brexit is the exit is turning out to be like the entrance..All about what is in the interests of the Tory party and not the Country...

A needless referendum only held because of worries that UKIP could end up splitting the Tory vote..Followed by arselicking the various Tory factions into EU paralysis.

Time to think about the people...

What a crap Government..I'd rather Keir Starmer was in there negotiating..

Corbyn would vote remain in another referendum apparently ...Really ??...Opportunism is alive and well.

Think I'll keep voting Green.

Keir Starmer, no thanks, in, out, in, out.

He has brought Corbyn around to the Single market and stayed in the tent while he has done it...A lesson to the other coup members who shot their load early and are repenting in leisure.

A skilful lawyer I rate him.

Corbyn still seesaws on that issue depending on who he thinks is watching. Starmer is one of the more sensible Labour Mps but he'd be hamstrung by the party.

guildfordbat wrote:

LionsV2 wrote:He delivered what the country wanted something Labour would have refused to do.

Even if the country wanted a referendum, I feel it was Cameron's inability to unite the Conservative Government on Europe and, as per Truss' post, Cameron's fear of UKIP that brought it about.

Cameron should also have recognised that the country wanted or, at least, would soon realise they wanted planning to have been done in advance of a possible Exit vote. By totally failing to deliver on that, he let everyone down and that continues to be his legacy.

I know its all too easy to use the 'out of touch' line with politicians, but the only part of the country that DC seemed to have any understanding of was Etonia.

He took a calculated risk and it failed. Gave the public too much credit.

He was never going to unite the conservatives on Europe.

The far right vote seems to mobilising throughout Europe at the moment which is a clear indication that many have had enough of the EU's lax migration. I genuinely don't see a long term future for the EU in its current form.

Ooh goody, Austrian far right politicians. That worked out so well last time to deal with immigrants and minorities.

It did didn't it, so maybe it's time the EU started taking notice of its citizens and doing something about it. Wild idea I know.

Good set of results coming through in Austria.

Delighted to see what appears to be a clean vote, after the shenanigans with the Presidential election of Austria last year.

Long live democracy.

LionsV2 wrote:The far right vote seems to mobilising throughout Europe at the moment which is a clear indication that many have had enough of the EU's lax migration. I genuinely don't see a long term future for the EU in its current form.

Really? I don't see your mobilisation 'throughout Europe'. Austrians have frequently had a Nazi side itching to get out and this is just the latest iteration. As for elsewhere, Brexit and Trump etc have given some people (that have always been present) some 'justification' for voicing their opinions more loudly than they dared do before - they've always been there.

It's just a phase we're going through and the rest of us have to put with in the name of 'democracy'.

The UK, France, Germany, Austria, Finland, Italy and the Netherlands have all seen an upsurge in right wing voting recently, mainly for anti EU and immigration parties but you're right it's not happening.

The good thing for the UK is statistics show more under 30s voted for the AFD in Germany than over 60s....

Whereas over here the young voted in large numbers pro EU...

So the UK's future looks in safe hands....Whereas Germany should be worried..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Whereas over here the young voted in large numbers pro EU...

Similar to the figures for the 1975 referendum, when the (then) young voted by a sizeable majority for the common market.

Of course, that generation changed their minds 41 years later!

Duty281 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Whereas over here the young voted in large numbers pro EU...

Similar to the figures for the 1975 referendum, when the (then) young voted by a sizeable majority for the common market.

Of course, that generation changed their minds 41 years later!

That's why I'll never trust the young, they get more and more shifty as they get older.

Duty281 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Whereas over here the young voted in large numbers pro EU...

Similar to the figures for the 1975 referendum, when the (then) young voted by a sizeable majority for the common market.

Of course, that generation changed their minds 41 years later!

Britain was on its arse when it went in to  the EU...

Soon to be on its arse again............That's when this government can agree on what it wants........Last week money was to be put away for a hard Brexit......Now its been told under no circumstances will Remain Conservatives agree to a hard Brexit..

Tragic..

Can some Brexit supporters please tell me what good has come from brexit? Will it make the UK richer? Will it create more home grown talent? I mean without using soundbites such as 'taking back control' or whatever nonsense politicians use what good do you think brexit will do to the UK.

Problem is even most of the experts are underestimating the impact, they keep talking about customs on our end - in France at Le Havre and Dunkirk, I think they can handle about 25000 batches,consignments between them per annum. We send 1.6 million trcusk every year.

LionsV2 wrote:The UK, France, Germany, Austria, Finland, Italy and the Netherlands have all seen an upsurge in right wing voting recently, mainly for anti EU and immigration parties but you're right it's not happening.

As I said, they've always been there and now they feel it's 'their time'. Shame Le Pen got handed her arse by Macron and Geert Wilders likewise by Rutte. AfD hardly shattered Merkel's grip.
These people have always been there, unfortunately. If the Macrons, Merkels etc have any sense, they'll work on neutering Le Pen et al for the foreseeable future.

Down with democracy in other words.

Or up with Hitler in your words? He's suggesting that they try to win back the voters from afd not that they need to be executed or tried as traitors.

Muscular-mouse wrote:Can some Brexit supporters please tell me what good has come from brexit? Will it make the UK richer? Will it create more home grown talent? I mean without using soundbites such as 'taking back control' or whatever nonsense politicians use what good do you think brexit will do to the UK.

Brexit hasn't happened yet.

navyblueshorts wrote:Shame Le Pen got handed her arse by Macron and Geert Wilders likewise by Rutte.

Neither of these things happened.

The Front National are closer to power than ever before in France. The fact that anti-FN people are celebrating Le Pen only getting 34% of the vote shows how far the FN have come; such a prospect would have seemed ludicrous ten years ago. And in the highly negative voting system which the French have, the FN should never be getting 34% of the vote in the second round.

And Wilders got a highly commendable (and unexpected) second place in the Netherlands; a country where, due to the sheer number of parties, he is unlikely to ever wield actual power. And Rutte took seven months to form a government!

Hey Barry, long time no see, how you doing?

ShahenshahG wrote:Hey Barry, long time no see, how you doing?

Eh?

ShahenshahG wrote:Or up with Hitler in your words? He's suggesting that they try to win back the voters from afd not that they need to be executed or tried as traitors.

Your better than Hitler comments now Shah, being against an open border European Union is a perfectly reasonable thing to want in my view and is the main reason I voted leave, I'm all for immigration but only when it's beneficial to us.

I'm not a particular fan of the far right but it is people democratic right to vote for who they want and for the reasons they want; the rise in the far right however shows that people are becoming increasingly tired with the laws imposed by the EU on such things.

I know you dont support Hitler in the same way Navy wasn't suggesting undemocratically neutering the right voters. This was the point hence the question mark rather than a statement.

ShahenshahG wrote:I know you dont support Hitler

Well, he hasn't had a chance to vote for him.

LionsV2 wrote:Down with democracy in other words.

No. That's neither what I said, nor what I meant.

ShahenshahG wrote:Or up with Hitler in your words? He's suggesting that they try to win back the voters from afd not that they need to be executed or tried as traitors.

Quite. I'm talking about addressing any genuine concerns of 'our' own Nationals and denouncing (with whatever evidence) the bile that's simple fear of someone who's 'other' and is abetted by power-hungry rabble-rousers like Farage, Wilders etc.