Eng in India

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LivinginItaly wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Does anyone really see Stokes as a genuine top 5 batsman?

(That comment will no doubt lead to a splendidly crafted century)

Top 5 no. Number 6 yes.

He will be back at six when they leave India and revert to a normal team balance ...ie just five bowlers. But it is probably a necessary evil on this tour.
In this case , five and six turned out to be virtually identical anyway

KP_fan wrote:In T3 Eng ran neck to neck with India but around mid of 3rd day India broke their resistance and gained ascendancy

same this game....Ind is running neck to neck not letting Eng surge ahead inspite of a good show by Eng.

tomm morning session is crucial.....if India lose 1 or 2 wickets max.....they would gain upper hand
3 wickets Par
more than 3 wickets....and Eng surge ahead

It sounds so cliched but a very important session coming up tomm morning

Totally agree KP_f - I'm aiming to wake up for the afternoon session, and I'm hoping to see that we've picked up Pujara/Kohli....stress hoping! Fully expecting to see Pujara on 100* and Kohli nearing 50!

56 runs for a wicket in the first hour....after losing Pujara to 2nd ball..Ind has scored fast
Now they need to go through the 2nd hour without losing a wicket....

Eng with so many bowlers can and should rotate their bowlers quicker than they are right now....

other than the error in judgment of line by pujara....Eng did not really beat Indian batsmen this session....
one more good session for India needed ...i.e anotther 100 for losing no more than 2 wicket

after lunch pitch is beginning to grip and Rashid looking dangerous.... by the look of things tomm pitch would be very difficult....

Nair needs to see through this patch of 3 or 4 overs.....sooner eng will take new ball...they are already past the 80th over

Ind needs a small parnership here...even 40 odd to kill any momentum eng might be building

Nair falls....looked edgy....momentum with Eng now..this is when collapses happen.....India need a 30-40 run partnership....to diffuse Eng's monetum

We may actually kill Moeen by the end of this match - he's gonna bowl 50/60 overs then have to bat at 10/2 after 4 overs

The change to Root works! Good captaincy

pitch is spitting cobras now--->Ind did string a 26 run partnership

we need useful 15s and 20s from each batsman to follow.....

Eng bowling 104th over with this ball...and with 4 seamers in the side
and even Root getting turn and bounce

Apparently Root brought himself on!

How is that reviewed?

Root is firing it in and getting more out of the pittch than Moeen 

well 6 down and Ind trail by 93.....
India need Jadeja, Yadav, Yadav and Bhuvi to get 15 each and Kohli holding the other end....somehow get close to 400 now

the way pitch has acted after lunch.....an india lead that seemed so imminent at lunch looks far away

India need to look at getting runs.....in a limited over mode...can't hang around....one will come spitting off the pitch and get you....

India 75 down but sensing the pitch have changed their tempo......no more hanging around...get runs before the pitch gets you

Congrats to England on a good fightback after a pretty fruitless search for wickets yesterday. Only Vijay and Kohli posting really notable scores.

Hopefully we can maintain the pressure and restrict India to no more than a 50 run lead. Kohli and Jadeja the last 2 real danger men. Get either of these guys soon and England will have done a decent job defending their total.

Do worry for England batting in their 2nd innings. Root is making the ball do all sorts of evil things at the moment. God only knows what India's spinners will do.

India should get a lead here and I think that will be enough to secure the win once their Spinners get to work

I know Rashid has his fans on here but I am really not convinced. Absolutely MIA when he has a score to bowl with. I am sure he'll get a couple of wickets when India are one down with twenty left to chase though

I'll claim that jinx. I still stand by my point though. Not a very convincing lead spinner

Nice one Adil! Just the breakthrough England needed.

Jadeja edges attempting a big shot and is caught by Buttler for 25. India 364-7 and England are well into the tail now with only Kohli to hold the innings together from the other end.

Very...he's been a disappointment for sure and there's no doubt some people ( including boycott) who owe flower and others an apology for ranting so much about his previous exclusions.
It's not to say that there's an obvious other candidate of course, Moeens record is no better despite his promising start. These are the games were there's no excuses...they have got spin from the off and have been given both new and old balls to bowl with. There's been control from the steamers if not wicket taking threats.
Aswin and jadeja showed the difference. And we'll Root...that's a thing isn't it.

it's a very intense battle.....first india needs to equalize......hopefully without loosing the 8th wicket and then get into a lead...17 overs to go today.

very intense cricket.....India has batted today in much tougher conditions......pitch has crumbled...juts the class of Kohli and the depth of Indian batting keeping us going....
when Eng bat they will struggle to get even 150

Eng should get the new ball and give it to spinners.....Nass is right here

VTR wrote:I'll claim that jinx. I still stand by my point though. Not a very convincing lead spinner

20 wickets at an average of 32.3 so far this series isn't exactly horrific. Don't think anyone is arguing he's gonna become the next Swann, but he's been England's best bowler in this series (after a tough time in Bangladesh)

We know we don't have the spinners to beat India in India. It is what it is

Been very disappointed by Cook's captaincy all series - he captained really well in the UAE last year, despite the end scoreline. He used the 6th bowler properly, rotated the seamers well. Here we're playing 6 bowlers, but he's only bowling 5 and has only bowled 5 all series. What's the point of having the 6th. Never really looked to take the initiative in the series, like now at least take the new ball for the spinners.

The only time we've taken the initiative all day is when Root brought himself on to bowl when Cook was off the field!

really Eng is missing a trick not taking the new ball for the spinners.....a blunder....it could mean diffrence  of 30 odd run lead  or otherwise

game changing those 30 runs couldd be

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

VTR wrote:I'll claim that jinx. I still stand by my point though. Not a very convincing lead spinner

20 wickets at an average of 32.3 so far this series isn't exactly horrific. Don't think anyone is arguing he's gonna become the next Swann, but he's been England's best bowler in this series (after a tough time in Bangladesh)

We know we don't have the spinners to beat India in India. It is what it is

Been very disappointed by Cook's captaincy all series - he captained really well in the UAE last year, despite the end scoreline. He used the 6th bowler properly, rotated the seamers well. Here we're playing 6 bowlers, but he's only bowling 5 and has only bowled 5 all series. What's the point of having the 6th. Never really looked to take the initiative in the series, like now at least take the new ball for the spinners.

The only time we've taken the initiative all day is when Root brought himself on to bowl when Cook was off the field!

I mean right now - we're a team with 6 bowlers and a useful part timer - but Rashid is now into the 28th (!!!) over of this spell and hasn't looked threatening for the last 10 overs of that. You've got Woakes who's bowled an over today, Stokes/Anderson barely seen - use them!!

Gooseberry wrote:Very...he's been a disappointment for sure and there's no doubt some people ( including boycott) who owe flower and others an apology for ranting so much about his previous exclusions.
It's not to say that there's an obvious other candidate of course, Moeens record is no better despite his promising start. These are the games were there's no excuses...they have got spin from the off and have been given both new and old balls to bowl with. There's been control from the steamers if not wicket taking threats.
Aswin and jadeja showed the difference. And we'll Root...that's a thing isn't it.

Are you making a case for the selection of Dawson , Goose ?

lead by 5 Ind....we need to add another 25 runs atleast

[quote="KP_fan"]really Eng is missing a trick not taking the new ball for the spinners.....a blunder....it could mean diffrence  of 30 odd run lead  or otherwise

game changing those 30 runs couldd be[/quote

Yeah maybe . But Anderson should have had the break then...

Eng need to have a spinner one end with the new ball

I am afraid Cook's captaincy has been confused and listless on many counts....we saw sparks of positivity when Root was captaining.....time for Root to take over in my view

India now have this test at their mercy. Leading by 22 with three wickets left standing and the chance to build a lead of around 50 to 100. Chances missed at key times by England today and they are going to pay for it dearly I'd say.

One observation of mine is that we now know there is no place in this England side for two spinners in England with Root there. He has 17 test wickets now and should be encouraged more to play a bigger part with the ball. Use him as back up spinner to Ali or Rashid with one of their places going to either a specialist batsman or seamer.

every Indian batsman has gotten into double figures except Ashwin...this partnership 65* and the wicket before this was 57......

Cook hasn't done enough common-sensical things from team selection to utilization of resources to onfield strategy

Yeah, the game is strongly in India's favour now.

Cooks looks pretty tired. Captaining in the subcontinent is tough and this is his 6th Test in, what, 7/8 weeks. No excuse for him, as it is his job and he is letting the side down, but I imagine it must be gruelling. Especially when you are losing.

And no Jayant gets a feather on one down the leg side, but no reviews left!

Didn't get home to watch this until the last hour...but India seem to have taken over .

Occurs to me to the worst thing England did on this trip was to knock Mishra out of the reckoning ...Jayant will never wreck the innings ; but he is OK with, the ball , and a very useful tail end bat...

Kohli is.......Kohli

K holiday is kaolin but yadav is just yadav.

And England gave just been bobbins.

alfie wrote:Jayant will never wreck the innings ; 

Kohli is.......Kohli

don't be so sure that he won't 
he might if he plays without Ashwin in a game or two....we can judge him solo
now by the time he comes ashwin and jadeja have already cast their influence.

when mature and experienced jayant could develop into someone like swann as a bowler

so the day goes per my wished script...India batted all day and are ahead by 50odd

what's a bonus is 3 wickets still in hand .....Kohli batting.....Jayant giving him company and showing technique of a proper batsman....with bhuvi to follow who in my view is a batsman more or less like Jayant and umesh at the end can slog a quick 12 runs...

I would like to see a lead of 100 and realistically it could be possible.....and thereafter Eng would be fighting to avoid an innings defeat, especialyl if India is switched on and opens the bolwing with two spinners

Eng....picked so many seamers and didn't know how to use them......didn't know how to use Root as a bowler....didn't know when to take the new ball, didn't know who to give the new ball to...and yet in every test match but T2 they have been competitive......and had they optimally addressed these type of issues as  in bold...they could have performed much better.

Captain Cook's fires aren't burning as bright inside him any more, I get the impression

India finish day three well on top...thanks to Kohli

It ain't over yet . Even with a (100 ?) run lead as looks likely , they still have to bat last . If England could somehow muster a strong second innings it could still be a tasty finish...but they look to be up against it now. Have to praise India's deep batting : frankly Jadeja Jayant etc have out batted Woakes/Rashid comfortably.

England need a big performance from somebody tomorrow.

KP_fan wrote:so the day goes per my wished script...India batted all day and are ahead by 50odd

what's a bonus is 3 wickets still in hand .....Kohli batting.....Jayant giving him company and showing technique of a proper batsman....with bhuvi to follow who in my view is a batsman more or less like Jayant and umesh at the end can slog a quick 12 runs...

I would like to see a lead of 100 and realistically it could be possible.....and thereafter Eng would be fighting to avoid an innings defeat, especialyl if India is switched on and opens the bolwing with two spinners

Eng....picked so many seamers and didn't know how to use them......didn't know how to use Root as a bowler....didn't know when to take the new ball, didn't know who to give the new ball to...and yet in every test match but T2 they have been competitive......and had they optimally addressed these type of issues as  in bold...they could have performed much better.

Captain Cook's fires aren't burning as bright inside him any more, I get the impression

Think you're spot on about England kp_f - Cook just hasn't captained at all well with the seamers, a real shame.

Kohli utterly magnificent again

Does it matter who England bowl, though , KP f ?

Although this pitch seemed to be giving Ashwin and Jadeja plenty of help on days one and two , it doesn't seem to have enabled Rashid and Moeen to produce the same pressure.

Maybe it is just that one side has the the better spinners and there isn't much anyone can do to redress that problem ?  I really thought scoreboard pressure might help England to worry India out of it today : but they've been too good.  Not convinced Cook could have actually done much to alter that...

Though I admit I'd like to have seen the seamers used more , as I said on day two.

alfie wrote:Does it matter who England bowl, though , KP f ?

Although this pitch seemed to be giving Ashwin and Jadeja plenty of help on days one and two , it doesn't seem to have enabled Rashid and Moeen to produce the same pressure.

Maybe it is just that one side has the the better spinners and there isn't much anyone can do to redress that problem ?  I really thought scoreboard pressure might help England to worry India out of it today : but they've been too good.  Not convinced Cook could have actually done much to alter that...

Though I admit I'd like to have seen the seamers used more , as I said on day  two.

Also should note - Ashwin and Jadeja get to bowl at England's batsmen, Moeen and Rashid have to bowl at India.

Would imagine Moeen/Rashid would look a lot better bowling at England too...(obviously Ashwin/Jadeja are better but i think its a fair point)

A fair point , Olly.

This is the problem though , is it not ? In these conditions , India are generally better...just as the reverse applies in England. It needs something exceptional from someone on either side to change this...

I am pleased England have largely competed with India in these games. Unfortunately they've not been able to convert moments of ascendancy into lasting dominance. Have to praise India for their ability to keep coming back whenever they appear to have fallen behind.

I hope England can still summon the resilience to fight back in the second innings here and either escape with a draw or (miracle plea) shock the hosts on the last day...but I'm not holding my breath

Only you can't just blame England's batsmen...ashwins figures at home this last year are unreal. Sure he hast had to bowl to batsmen if the calibre of Yadav (eyeroll) but he's ran through everyone. He's become the real deal.

The truth is that India have just been that bit better and more consistent than England in every area. Not a lot between the sides but that bit better and more consistent all add up. India's batting order has weighed in with more centuries and big partnerships and even the tail has out-wagged England's. Bowling-wise their spin has been more consistent on line and length and more potent and their seam attack has held up pretty well against England's. Their team selection has also been more spot on for the pitches as England have either had too many spinners or too many seamers in their attack and to top that players originally not on the tour have been called up and played before original choices.

It must be remembered though that India are officially the best team in the world right now so it can't be any surprise that the series has gone this way especially when you consider that England have just not been quite as consistent as they have been in the past.

The road map for tomorrow then.

England must look to have bowled India out after an hour of play tomorrow for around 475. Use that hour left in the morning to reach 50 for 1. The pitch will be getting progressively harder to bat on and I think England would be pleased to reach tea on 150 for 5 and close tomorrow night around 230 for 8 or 9. That, I must say, seems optimistic at present.

India's road map is more how I see the day panning out. India to bat through and perhaps get bowled out around lunch for around 530. In the afternoon, with the pitch deteriorating India will hope to reduce England to around 100 for 5. They'd then fancy themselves to bowl England out by close of play for around 220 leaving them with a total of just under 100 to chase on the final day.

Alfie makes a good point - there have been moments, like when Ashwin's wicket fell today, when England have been right in the game if not quite in the ascendency, but India have played well at these times and taken the game away again.

Yes, their batsmen are better players of spin overall than ours, and in particular look to have more options of how to play and tick the score along rather than over-reliance on the sweep / reverse sweep as scoring shots.

Ashwin is undoubtedly the best spin bowler on display, but I think Rashid and Moeen have done OK and been on a level with Jadeja.

The team balance, or at least how the bowling attack has been used, looks wrong in this game, but the 3rd spinner options haven't shone elsewhere, and anyway it is likely that Ball would have been the seamer to miss out, and he's been the most effective of the 4 seam bowlers.

Obviously we are somewhat behind the 8 ball for tomorrow, but if we could knock the last 3 wickets over for say 30, we aren't out of the game entirely. Will need an exemplary batting performance to either save or win the Test - back to parity early in the afternoon preferably for the loss of at most 1 wicket, and then look to bat till lunch on day 5, setting say 220-250 for India in 2 sessions. However, I see CC's road map as more likely - all out by the end of the day, setting India about 100 to win.

An excellent day for England ... the Lions that is as they beat Afghanistan by 40 odd runs in their 4 day match. Good for the Surrey mafia as well. The Curran brothers sharing 6 second innings wickets plus a couple of stumpings for Foakes.

Meanwhile, a very poor day for us in India. Ordinary captaincy, ordinary bowling from over-used bowlers, not enough bowling from under-used bowlers, missed chances and the wrong team selection are not exactly what you want when competing against the might of Kohli and a more than decent Indian supporting cast.

As said before, England's first innings score was ok but not as good as it should have been. It certainly wasn't so strong as to be able to overcome the challenges thrown up today. I admire the fighting spirit and hopes of Alfie's recent posts but my own view is that this game is pretty much up.

So after keeping even at the end of both the first couple of days, India have surged ahead at the end of day 3. The skipper leading from the front with an absolutely brilliant 147 not out. Terrific support from Murali Vijay who made 136. Crucial contributions from Ravindra Jadeja and Jayant Yadav, helping the captain rest the initiative back from England at absolutely crucial points as far as the match situation was concerned.
With Bhuvneshwar Kumar yet to come, Kohli can bat on in the normal mode if he gets going in the morning. India would be hoping to push the total towards 500....... England would be hoping to get Kohli early in the morning, like they did with Cheteshwar Pujara today. And then perhaps take out the last 2 quickly and limit the damage to about 70.

Very happy for Murali Vijay. I am a big supporter of his and was absolutely appalled when Kohli delayed his return to the side after he got injured in the West Indies as Shikhar Dhawan had made a decent scores in one of the games. But Vijay hadn't looked his 2015 self throughout the year, even when he was getting runs. Like the case was during his 126 in the first test or the couple of 50s he scored against New Zealand. And then after not being troubled by the short ball in South Africa, England or Australia, he was getting into all sorts of issues with the short stuff in this series. But Vijay has come out of the mess, and this by far, looked his best innings in 2016. Very fluent throughout, and even when he didn't score runs during passages, he looked in absolute control. The aesthetic beauty of his shots returned, the ability and willingness to loft the ball out of town to set the agenda against spin was pretty much in display, and it didn't look a desperate measure to stay in control like was the case during the first hundred of the series.

As for Kohli, he meant business right from the outset! Effectively batted through the day, was not bothered by the wickets at the other end, and all throughout, kept a fine tempo. Played shots all around the ground with great authority. Early in his career, the hundred seemed the limit for Virat as he used to get out soon after. But ones he scored that big hundred in Australia, things changed. He has already got 3 scores over 150 this year and 2 of them had been doubles.

England had their moments, and had opportunities to move ahead but came up short eventually. They got Pujara's wicket as a nice little early morning gift but that only brought Virat upon them. They ripped out 4 quick wickets after lunch, but then came unstuck as Kohli found valuable support from Jadeja and Jayant to shut the door on them again.
It was a good hunch from from Cook to bring Ball on at the outset and Pujara badly misjudged the angle from wide of the stumps. But after that his captaincy lacked any spark or imagination. When he was off, Root took over, brought himself on and took out Parthiv and Ashwin! Cook's lackluster captaincy has been general feature of the series. He seems set in his ways, doesn't seem to have much ideas as to how to make good use of the available resources. A case in point is Rashid. Either he doesn't bowl him, or he bowls him to the ground!! And what exactly was the assigned duty of the 4 seamers? The spinners bowled as many as 97 overs, the 2 frontline options bowling some 89 of them between them.

As for the debate on the spinners. Indian spinners clearly are a class apart. Indian batsmen are better at playing spin and do have a greater range of shots, though they are nowhere near the class of the generation of the Fab 4+Sehwag.
Rashid and Ali haven't done too badly as such. The Indian spinners and the Indian batsmen have been better.......Someone mentioned that Rashid and Ali were roughly equal to Jadeja. Can't agree with that at all. A point to be noted here is the combination effect. Rashid surely has picked more wickets than Jadeja has done so far in the series. But Jadeja has been the perfect foil for Ashwin. He has been hard to get away over after over after over. It is only in this innings that he went for runs, and then he negated that with 4 wickets! The kind of liberties that would give to Ashwin are massive. He doesn't have to really worry about run control as such. Not that he's easy to get away, but tha the pressure created by him would find no let up from the other end. And if you try taking Jadeja on, the natural variations might be your undoing. So as a unit, the Indian spin twins are at a different level in these conditions, and Jayant is more than handy when it comes to giving them a bit of a break. He also gives no easy runs unlike Amit Mishra, so the batsman will again have to take him on and manufacture shots and that might play into his hands.

Though many of the England supporters keep repeating that Rashid is no Warne and Ali is no Murali, they expect them to be of that level! Those 2 are the best that they've got. The Dawsons and the Ansaris of the world, county parttimers who fire it in can't and won't be the answer. A recycled old county pro who doesn't spin it much either. Gream Swann was one of the best ever, and people never realized the value of Monty when he was around. But they don't come along regularly through a system that doesn't really encourage spinners that much. And the conditions do not help much either. So they have to find ways to make the best out of Rashid and Moeen. Between the 2, the former clearly has been much better in this series. But he's not going to run through this Indian lineup in the first innings for sure. They need their seamers to put in that extra bit of effort. Like Anderson did in the 2nd test, or like Stokes did in the last game. And they should not waste opportunities with the bat on a regular basis.

I don't think any sane England fan expects a Warne and Murali, the two we have are obviously way short of that. I think what we are after is at least a Giles who can keep it tight and build some pressure. We don't have that, both go for about four an over so the game runs away from England too quickly

They are the best we have, but we need to develop one or two better options if we ever want to compete in the SC