6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:57 pm

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6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February - Page 4 Wales106N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February - Page 4 Englan11
WALES 
ENGLAND 
11 February 2017
KO:16:50 GMT
Principality Stadium, Cardiff

Live on [ITV, RTE, SC4, FR2, DMAX / BBC (H)]

Referee: Jerome Garces (France)
Touch judges: Pascal Gauzere (France) & Nick Briant (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

A. Head to Head

129 Played 129
57 Won 60
12 Drawn 12
60 Lost 57
1,673 Points 1,518

B. Recent Form 

29 May 2016: Twickenham, London
27 – 13 to England
2016 mid-year rugby union internationals

12 March 2016: Twickenham, London
25 – 21 to England
2016 Six Nations Championship

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London
25 – 28 to Wales
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London 
25 – 28 to Wales 
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A 

6 February 2015: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
16 – 21 to England 
2015 Six Nations 

9 March 2014: Twickenham Stadium, London 
29 – 18 to England 
2014 Six Nations 

16 March 2013: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
30 – 3 to Wales 
2013 Six Nations 

25 February 2012: Twickenham Stadium, London 
12 – 19 to Wales 
2012 Six Nations

13 August 2011: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
19 – 9 to Wales 
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test 

6 August 2011: Twickenham, London 
23 – 19 to England 
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test 

C. Teams


WALES
6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February - Page 4 Burton10
15-Leigh Halfpenny, 14-George North, 13-Jonathan Davies, 12-Scott Williams, 11-Liam Williams, 10-Dan Biggar, 9-Rhys Webb; 1-Rob Evans, 2-Ken Owens, 3-Tomas Francis, 4-Jake Ball, 5-Alun Wyn Jones, 6-Sam Warburton, 7-Justin Tipuric; 8-Ross Moriarty.

Replacements: 16-Scott Baldwin, 17-Nicky Smith, 18-Samson Lee, 19-Cory Hill, 20-Taulupe Faletau, 21-Gareth Davies, 22-Sam Davies, 23-Jamie Roberts.

ENGLAND
6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February - Page 4 Carygr10
15-Mike Brown, 14-Jack Nowell, 13-Jonathan Joseph, 12-Owen Farrell, 11-Elliot Daly, 10-George Ford, 9-Ben Youngs; 1-Joe Marler, 2-Dylan Hartley (captain), 3-Dan Cole, 4-Joe Launchbury, 5-Courtney Lawes, 6-Maro Itoje, 7-Jack Clifford, 8-Nathan Hughes.

Replacements: 16-Jamie George, 17-Matt Mullan, 18-Kyle Sinckler, 19-Tom Wood, 20-James Haskell, 21-Danny Care, 22-Ben Te'o, 23-Jonny May.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:18 am

Like I said don't think anyone would be happy with their performance. Jones has said he doesn't think Haskell is fit enough to start against Wales so presumably felt the same for France. Whether he's lying is another question.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:18 am

beshocked wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Thought you were all against playing guys who aren't match fit?

I am generally against it yes. I wouldn't say that Marler and Hartley were firing on all cylinders but perhaps you disagree.

Haskell was deemed fit enough to play vs France. If he's fit enough to be on the bench, surely he should be deemed fit enough to start as Londontiger suggested in another thread?

Also not like England have lots of other options with Wood struggling for fitness himself, Robshaw and Billy injured.

When you weigh up the options it's either starting the very experienced Haskell or the relatively inexperienced Clifford who has been struggling for match fitness himself.

Youd think so and I hope he is, but Jones has been quoted in the press as saying he doenst think hes ready for a full 80 minutes. It may be a match sharpness thing rather than actual fitness. Hes been out a lot longer and trained less in that time than guys like Hartley.


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Post by dummy_half on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:23 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't understand gooseberry; I don't think any English player played well against France. I'd say best of the bunch were Farrell, Brown and Daly who were still average.

I'd put Marler in that group as well - set piece was acceptably good and he did his defensive duties pretty well.

Re: Itoje - he just looked far happier in the last 15 minutes doing the things he does from the 2nd row. I don't think it's a physical thing, just that at 6 he looked as though he was having to think what he was supposed to do, and that put him a fraction behind the game. 2nd row, he looked like it came instinctively and he was just flying at things.

I can understand EJ deciding to keep him at 6 this week if the injury list is as bad as stated (Clifford being the only fully fit back row specialist in the squad - Haskell on the comeback trail, while Hughes and Wood carrying knocks)., but as soon as Haskell is 80 minutes fit then it hould be back to the 2nd row for Maro.

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Post by beshocked on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:25 am

I know what Jones has said but Haskell played better than any other England player IMO. Looked much sharper than Hartley too. Yes I realise it's easier to come off the bench but still Haskell just seemed to lift the whole side.

You don't need to play Haskell for 80 anyway. Even 50-60 is better than 15-20 IMO.

Hartley in my opinion played like someone who hasn't played a match in a few weeks, Haskell didn't. Haskell also had some gametime vs Zebre.

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Post by Poorfour on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:29 am

Eddie's been pretty clear that he doesn't think Haskell has enough fitness to start, and would presumably rather use his impact off the bench than have him come out all guns blazing and fade early.

Clifford is relatively inexperienced but he's played 12 club games this season at 60-70 minutes per game, so he's not really struggling for match fitness, especially considering he missed several weeks with a broken ankle bone.
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Post by englandglory4ever on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:36 am

Some people are having a laugh. Marler gets criticized for not doing too well against a 24 stone behemoth. France were very good for 50 minutes. England took command after. England were rusty but carved out a very good win.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:38 am

englandglory4ever wrote:Some people are having a laugh. Marler gets criticized for not doing too well against a 24 stone behemoth. France were very good for 50 minutes. England took command after. England were rusty but carved out a very good win.

A 24st behemoth who can hardly hold his own weight in the scrum to be fair. Atonio is a great carrier but he's no threat in the scrum, I'd have expected a fully fit Marler to take him to the cleaners tbh.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:38 am

If Wood is out and Faletau is fit enough to start it could be an interesting back row battle.

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Post by miaow on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:40 am

Gwlad wrote:England will come out like men possessed to try and shut Wales down from the start so i think we need the strongest set piece we can field. For me that's with Evans Francis and Charteris.

You're probably right. I'm not sure about the set piece though. I think the scrum would be a lot better off to have Ball pushing instead of Charteris. It's a case of which one do you underpower: the scrum or the lineout. Considering how much physicality we give away in open play/around the breakdown, Charteris is great defensively, but he doesn't have the physical bulk of Ball.

It would be a hard call to make were it not for the fact that Charteris has hardly played this season. It makes the decision a simple one. Ask Charteris to be a defensive impact player, both in open play and at the lineout.


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Post by beshocked on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:41 am

Poorfour you obviously know more about the Clifford situation but hasn't he only recently returned from ankle surgery then picked up another injury vs Stade Francais? Obviously he missed the France game.

He's not exactly been in peak physical condition/fitness.


I agree with Sgt Pooly. Atonio is a big bloke but technically quite poor in the scrum. He's almost too big for his own good.

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Post by miaow on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:42 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I hope there is no shenanigans before the game starts this time.

Wales will have the roof closed during the week to "keep the pitch dry".

The remote control will mysteriously go missing on Saturday morning...

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Post by munkian on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:43 am

So, people think England will definitely improve but then there are doubts whether Wales will.

What's this based on exactly ?
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Post by miaow on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:48 am

munkian wrote:Just hope the ref questions how the 2m 19 stone  Itojie can support his bodyweight over a ruck whilst balancing on his tip toes... Shocked

Might be something to do with proportion of leg length to upper body length? If his legs are longer, it gives him that advantage to be able to 'V' shape over the ball, without going off his feet.

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:49 am

Jérôme Garcès is a crowd pleaser, the 16th man will play its part.
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Post by Scottrf on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:49 am

munkian wrote:So, people think England will definitely improve but then there are doubts whether Wales will.

What's this based on exactly ?
England have never lost at the Principality Stadium.

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Post by miaow on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:54 am

hugehandoff wrote:
beshocked wrote:hugehandoff if England aren't the best in the NH then who are?
.

Surely you must understand the comedy gold bit refers to the All Blacks.....no one is on a par with them until proven on the pitch. Stating England are on their level is ridiculous.

Na, course you're as good as them. Perhaps even better.

You're the best, boys. Honest. Saturday will be a walk in the park.

Wouldn't bother training to be honest. Just turn up in the 'Principality' and put us back in our place.

All part of the mind games. Eddie didn't get the nibble he was hoping for.

6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February - Page 4 Xmeh35

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Post by munkian on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:55 am

miaow wrote:
munkian wrote:Just hope the ref questions how the 2m 19 stone  Itojie can support his bodyweight over a ruck whilst balancing on his tip toes... Shocked

Might be something to do with proportion of leg length to upper body length? If his legs are longer, it gives him that advantage to be able to 'V' shape over the ball, without going off his feet.

That's a very technical explanation for illegally slowing down ball like some giant star fish over a ruck.
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Post by Scottrf on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:57 am

*Deleted because a clickbait article from 2014 doesn't help the discussion*


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Post by TightHEAD on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:58 am

They love it don't they!
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Post by mid_gen on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:00 am

Telegraph probable/leaked squad

M Brown; J Nowell, J Joseph, O Farrell, E Daly; G Ford, B Young; J Marler, D Hartley, D Cole, J Launchbury, C Lawes, M Itoje, J Clifford, N Hughes.

Massive game for Clifford then.

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Post by munkian on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:02 am

Not sure how a click bait article from 2014 helps the discussion ?
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Post by mid_gen on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:02 am

munkian wrote:
miaow wrote:
munkian wrote:Just hope the ref questions how the 2m 19 stone  Itojie can support his bodyweight over a ruck whilst balancing on his tip toes... Shocked

Might be something to do with proportion of leg length to upper body length? If his legs are longer, it gives him that advantage to be able to 'V' shape over the ball, without going off his feet.

That's  a very technical explanation for illegally slowing down ball like some giant star fish over a ruck.

It's a technical explanation for how Itoje is so effective at the breakdown. Referees like the obvious V stance when jackaling, if you can get in that position you invariably win the penalty. Play the ref.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:04 am

Itoje has a great technique at the breakdown, much more than I can say for some of the other English backrow candidates.

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Post by Poorfour on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:09 am

beshocked wrote:Poorfour you obviously know more about the Clifford situation but hasn't he only recently returned from ankle surgery then picked up another injury vs Stade Francais? Obviously he missed the France game.

He's not exactly been in peak physical condition/fitness.


I agree with Sgt Pooly. Atonio is a big bloke but technically quite poor in the scrum. He's almost too big for his own good.

He missed the AIs through ankle surgery but has played 10 games since he returned from that. He got concussed around Christmas and I think picked up a rib injury a few weeks back but has otherwise been in good form. I don't think injury was mentioned as the reason for him not being in the France squad.
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Post by miaow on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:10 am

munkian wrote:
miaow wrote:
munkian wrote:Just hope the ref questions how the 2m 19 stone  Itojie can support his bodyweight over a ruck whilst balancing on his tip toes... Shocked

Might be something to do with proportion of leg length to upper body length? If his legs are longer, it gives him that advantage to be able to 'V' shape over the ball, without going off his feet.

That's  a very technical explanation for illegally slowing down ball like some giant star fish over a ruck.

Haha. I'm trying to give an English player the benefit of the doubt on these boards as apparently I'm so anti-English.

A few things around the breakdown to watch out for from England:

* NZ style clearing out players who aren't engaged in the ruck and driving them back well beyond their own gate entry point. It's particularly evident when a back comes flying in and just clatters into a player who perhaps was going to be the ruck shield, running them 10ms behind the breakdown. It's illegal, but they're getting away with it. Can't be caught with eyes on the ball and lose a player to these shenanigans.

* Holding on in the ruck. They seemed to do it a fair bit against France, holding on to players who were trying to free themselves and get back in the defensive line. Every team does this of course, but it was particularly evident when France were leading and trying to fan out as much as possible and not compete on the ground. Hard to counter legally: the only options are to milk it to try to win a penalty (unlikely), or take the law into your own hands and risk a card.

* Sealing off. This was the most blatant one for me. England aren't as 'cute' as Ireland and Wales at the ruck. They don't send in a player tagged on to the ball carrier ot secure the ball as often as the other two. They're much more of a momentum team, and that means attacking their own rucks at pace. The players go flying in, often at a diagonal to the ground, in order to smash the opposition away. The effect is two fold: one, it's quicker ball, and two, it makes players think twice about slowing the ball down as it hurts a lot more than less dynamic rucking. This is all part of England under Eddie Jones: no holds barred physicality. Hurt the opposition. Get in their heads.

The last one is the main concern, but also the place where we can get the most headroom. However, all three, particularly the first and last, work in tandem. We can't outmuscle them, but we are techincally better than them. Tipuric and Warburton are key, and both have to start. England will do the vast majority of their work targeting those two players to get them away, and so it's up to Ken Owens, Rob Evans, and AWJ in particular to turn ball over a few times when the other two have been taken out of the game.

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Post by beshocked on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:11 am

Interesting that Daly is being retained on the wing with May being dropped - to be fair based on the France game that's probably the right decision but it's funny that yet again England are facing Wales with a back out of position away in Wales.

Agree mid gen. Massive game for Clifford and the whole pack in general. They've got a big job to do to try and make Youngs and Ford be effective.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:24 am

beshocked wrote:Interesting that Daly is being retained on the wing with May being dropped - to be fair based on the France game that's probably the right decision but it's funny that yet again England are facing Wales with a back out of position away in Wales.

Is this definately happening? Ive only seen the 24 man travelling/training squad reported. It has both of them in. Are you suggesting that Nowells getting a start?

Jones did talk before the France game that Nowells exclussion was down to looking at the opporistion and the game rather than a reflection on him as a player. His love for Daly (no doubt improved by the monster penalty and field kick he put in) is pretty well known. On the surface its a little harsh on May but there is healthy competition even with Watson out.

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Post by Scottrf on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:25 am

Gooseberry wrote:
beshocked wrote:Interesting that Daly is being retained on the wing with May being dropped - to be fair based on the France game that's probably the right decision but it's funny that yet again England are facing Wales with a back out of position away in Wales.

Is this definately happening? Ive only seen the 24 man travelling/training squad reported. It has both of them in. Are you suggesting that Nowells getting a start?

Jones did talk before the France game that Nowells exclussion was down to looking at the opporistion and the game rather than a reflection on him as a player. His love for Daly (no doubt improved by the monster penalty and field kick he put in) is pretty well known. On the surface its a little harsh on May but there is healthy competition even with Watson out.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/02/07/tom-wood-injury-hits-englands-back-row-plans-wales-six-nations/

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:28 am

englandglory4ever wrote:People are being too dismissive of France they were very big and very good.

Are people being dismissive of France? I haven't seen any of that. Most of what I've read is people getting excited that we might finally be seeing a return of France as a force in the Six Nations.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:31 am

miaow wrote:Asking Sam Davies to start is like going back in time. Fairly certain no-one was rating him before the AIs?

If you did go back in time, you'd see that plenty of people rated him before the AIs.

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Post by munkian on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:31 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
englandglory4ever wrote:People are being too dismissive of France they were very big and very good.

Are people being dismissive of France? I haven't seen any of that.

They weren't 'very good' though were they ? They failed to turn pressure into points, got tired and lost the lead then lost the game.

If they were 'very good' they would have one ? Or does a team need to be 'extremely good' to beat an underperforming England ?
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Post by GunsGermsV2 on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:32 am

France were really disorganised, rudderless and didnt seem to be very well drilled. As usual they do have good players though.

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Post by Poorfour on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:36 am

Scottrf wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
beshocked wrote:Interesting that Daly is being retained on the wing with May being dropped - to be fair based on the France game that's probably the right decision but it's funny that yet again England are facing Wales with a back out of position away in Wales.

Is this definately happening? Ive only seen the 24 man travelling/training squad reported. It has both of them in. Are you suggesting that Nowells getting a start?

Jones did talk before the France game that Nowells exclussion was down to looking at the opporistion and the game rather than a reflection on him as a player. His love for Daly (no doubt improved by the monster penalty and field kick he put in) is pretty well known. On the surface its a little harsh on May but there is healthy competition even with Watson out.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/02/07/tom-wood-injury-hits-englands-back-row-plans-wales-six-nations/

If that's right, it's a big ask for a relatively untried back row. First start for Clifford in a proper international at the Principality... talk about in at the deep end. At least Clifford adds some power and pace relative to Wood and has a pretty high work rate (he's learned from the second best), but he'll need to be on his toes.
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Post by TightHEAD on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:47 am

Is Tom Wood a real miss?

I wasn't that impressed with him last week.
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Post by TightHEAD on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:50 am

I would be tempted to replace Brown with Daly but appreciate this probably isn't the game to experiment with.


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Post by munkian on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:53 am

TightHEAD wrote:I would be tempted to replace Daly with Brown but appreciate this probably isn't the game to experiment with.  

On the wing ? Please do, Tipuric says hi
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Post by cascough on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:54 am

Mr Bounce wrote:I am waiting for this one with utter excitement. Any Welsh or English fan will happily tell you that this is THE game of the 6 Nations. Wales LOVE to beat the English and England LOVE to beat the Welsh.

The interesting thing is that England played badly, and Wales played badly in their respective games. Could be some interesting selections due to come this week, and probably not only dependent on fitness. I guess (and to paraphrase a well-used saying relating to the French) it depends on which England and Wales turn up on the day...

Disagree.

I want England to win every game and don't expect to have to hypothetically pick and choose which I would rather England win. Looking back I can tell you last year I am most pleased we beat Ireland, simply because to see where they have come from after the world cup makes them a worthy adversary.

I will say this though, given the way the fixture list has fallen, I penciled this game in as the danger game for England so it's certainly the one I'm most nervous about this year.

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6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February - Page 4 Empty Re: 6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February

Post by TightHEAD on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:05 pm

munkian wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I would be tempted to replace Daly with Brown but appreciate this probably isn't the game to experiment with.  

On the wing ? Please do, Tipuric says hi

You got me there! I could see why a Welshman would be happy with that! Shocked
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Post by munkian on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:06 pm

I want to win this game as I want to win the 6 Nations - you don't generally do that unless you beat England.

Saying that, I'd take a win over Ireland than over England, they are more arsey about it these days.
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6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February - Page 4 Empty Re: 6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February

Post by SecretFly on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:09 pm

munkian wrote:I want to win this game as I want to win the 6 Nations - you don't generally do that unless you beat England.

Saying that, I'd take a win over Ireland than over England, they are more arsey about it these days.

Who f**king said that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! mad Who said that?!!! That is a Hate crime! That is Anti-Irishism (akin to the old-school Anti-Welshism that the Welsh had copyrighted a few years ago Wink ) I want to take this to the European Court of Human Rights! We are not arsey!!!!!!!! mad We're taking it all in good taste! furious

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Post by munkian on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:13 pm

SecretFly wrote:
munkian wrote:I want to win this game as I want to win the 6 Nations - you don't generally do that unless you beat England.

Saying that, I'd take a win over Ireland than over England, they are more arsey about it these days.

Who f**king said that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  mad Who said that?!!!  That is a Hate crime!  That is Anti-Irishism (akin to the old-school Anti-Welshism that the Welsh had copyrighted a few years ago Wink )  I want to take this to the European Court of Human Rights!  We are not arsey!!!!!!!! mad   We're taking it all in good taste! furious

Fine, chippy ?
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Post by TightHEAD on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:16 pm

Before last week I'd say the Irish were being arrogant in thinking the 6 Nations title was theirs just because they beat a tired All Blacks team on a jolly in the USA.

Mind you that was before last weeks grounding in Edinburgh.
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Post by SecretFly on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:17 pm

That was my best Welshonian melt-down. I haven't perfected it yet - just a trial run.

How was it? Wink

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Post by SecretFly on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:19 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Before last week I'd say the Irish were being arrogant in thinking the 6 Nations title was theirs just because they beat a tired All Blacks team on a jolly in the USA.

Mind you that was before last weeks grounding in Edinburgh.

Before last week I think you were having vivid dreams, TightHEAD.

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:19 pm

BOD said it.
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Post by munkian on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:23 pm

SecretFly wrote:That was my best Welshonian melt-down.  I haven't perfected it yet - just a trial run.

How was it? Wink

Far too polite, needs more top level swearing.
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Post by SecretFly on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:25 pm

TightHEAD wrote:BOD said it.

BOD is BOD, a paid employee mouthpiece for a few English broadcasting/media networks.

BOD ain't me. BOD doesn't speak for us Irish, he speaks for himself.

But it doesn't matter. It's nice getting the salty attitudes from the other folks across the way thinking we're all arrogant now. It's fun. A mirror onto the soul for those willing to look into it. Wink

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Post by SecretFly on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:26 pm

munkian wrote:
SecretFly wrote:That was my best Welshonian melt-down.  I haven't perfected it yet - just a trial run.

How was it? Wink

Far too polite, needs more top level swearing.

They won't let me swear on here. That's another complaint I intend making to Europe - even my Irish language rights are being infringed. Our version of fluent English IS swearing.

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Post by miaow on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:34 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
miaow wrote:Asking Sam Davies to start is like going back in time. Fairly certain no-one was rating him before the AIs?

If you did go back in time, you'd see that plenty of people rated him before the AIs.

And also plenty didn't. Great. It doesn't disprove the fickle nature of Welsh fans to #10s, but thanks for trying you troll OK

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:38 pm

miaow wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
miaow wrote:Asking Sam Davies to start is like going back in time. Fairly certain no-one was rating him before the AIs?

If you did go back in time, you'd see that plenty of people rated him before the AIs.

And also plenty didn't. Great. It doesn't disprove the fickle nature of Welsh fans to #10s, but thanks for trying you troll OK

You said you were pretty sure no one rated him before the AIs. You were wrong. I was just pointing it out.


Last edited by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

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