Team of the 6 Nations

First topic message reminder :

Obviously objective, but worth the discussion. Feel free to pitch in with your team and explanations.  

Stats....credit to George...

1. The following players won man of the match awards:

- Stuart Hogg (Scotland)
- Louis Picamoles (France)
- Leigh Halfpenny (Wales)
- CJ Stander (Ireland)
- Joe Launchbury (England)
- Kevin Gourdon (France)
- Finn Russell (Scotland) x 2
- Conor Murray (Ireland)
- Joe Launchbury (England)
- Rhys Webb (Wales)
- Baptiste Serin (France)
- Jonathan Joseph (England)
- Brice Dulin (France)
- Peter O'Mahony (Ireland)

2. Nobody was top try scorer outright - the following players all scored 3 tries apiece:

Danny Care (England)
Keith Earls (Ireland)
Craig Gilroy (Ireland)
Stuart Hogg (Scotland)
Jonathan Joseph (England)
George North (Wales)
CJ Stander (Ireland)
Liam Williams (Wales)

3. Top points scorers:

1 Camille Lopez France 67
2 Owen Farrell England 63
3 Leigh Halfpenny Wales 62
4 Finn Russell Scotland 45
5 Paddy Jackson Ireland 36

1. Baille - Impressive 6N for the big man. Scrummed extremely well and showed up well in the loose, Marler/McGrath worth a shout.

2. Guiardo - Standout hooker. Did the basics well and excellent in the loose.

3. Furlong - Became less dominant in the set piece as the tournament went on but always solid and carried hard.

4. Launchbury - Starting only because of injuries, he's nailed his place. An excellent 6N for the big man.

5. AWJ - A tough call with Gray and Lawes also impressing. Was a constant presence and showed his Lions credentials.

6. Stander - The standout 6, a wrecking ball of a carrier.

7. Tipuric - An excellent 6N for the Ospreys 7. Really put his hand up for the Lions and defied opinions of his lack of physicality.

8. Picamoles - Started excellently but became quiet as the tournament went on. Dragged France through the early games.  

9. Serin - Looks a fantastic find for the French. Murray and Webb a close call too.

10. Bigger - Perhaps controversial but I thought he was generally very good. A real chance of Lions spot this Summer.

11. Daly - Williams worth a shout but Daly had a good 6N, although his defence is still questionable.

12. Farrell - Bar the Italian game, he was very good. Making the 12 shirt his own. More by default with no other real options.

13. JJ - A tough call but the game against Scotland was just outstanding. Campagnaro a worthy shout for Italy.

14. North - Grew into the competition. After a poor game v Scotland, was possibly one of the best backs in the 6N.

15. Hogg - The standout FB, nobody else really close.


So.....

England - 4
France - 4
Wales - 4
Ireland - 2
Scotland - 1
Italy - 0

Tough on Scotland as they were fantastic at times. Gray Jnr, Laidlaw and Russell all with valid shouts for a place.

You're changing the goalposts Sine!

And yet we don't know for sure. We can't compare how they've weighted it. We can guess and frankly the little descriptions add little to this bar the bit of fun I suggested.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And yet we don't know for sure. We can't compare how they've weighted it. We can guess and frankly the  little descriptions add little to this bar the bit of fun I suggested.

If you look up their site, they give the methodology. They have Nick Mallet involved in the analysis.

I really don't see why you find this so difficult to understand. They give marks for various things. Its the same competition, so everyone is marked using the same method. You can compare players directly as they are being marked the same. Itoje will get the same marks as AW Jones for winning a ball.

Look, the law is - and everyone should just admit it - nobody wants to believe in any stat that doesn't confirm what they believe in - and boy do we have our examples in the last year or so.

But I'm not sure on the weightings, why they are weighted as such etc. I've looked at the further links and it's not clearer. It's also obviously not a definitive thing ie better than mallet just naming his team.

SecretFly wrote:Look, the law is  - and everyone should just admit it - nobody wants to believe in any stat that doesn't confirm what they believe in - and boy do we have our examples in the last year or so.

A wise man once said (and I don't know who):

People Use Statistics as a Drunk Uses a Lamppost — For Support Rather Than Illumination.

Never a truer case on this forum. One stat I like at the moment was Hamish Watson in the 6N.

23 Carries
0 Clean Breaks
11 Defenders beaten!


Says all you need to know about how he takes the ball into contact.

Stats are always only part of the story both on a player as an individual and for a team.  

There are the damn stats (metres run, carries, kicks etc etc) then there is the presence;- the influence that individual player has on the performance of players around him (a very very complex thing to get into stats)  

So for example, for me I always find Parisse to be a bit of a disruptive force in the effective rhythm of the Italian side.  He'll have his stats and his reputation as the only Italian player of note - but I think he actually takes too much 'leadership' and action onto himself and in so doing takes responsibility away from other players who might better adapt to taking on that pressure if Parisse was gone.

Hoggy named player of the tournament apparently

Gotta be wrong?

Do they not realise he's Scottish?

Nope, congrats to Hogg - gave the competition his all.

SecretFly wrote:Gotta be wrong?

Do they not realise he's Scottish?

Nope, congrats to Hogg - gave the competition his all.

Have to say I voted for Picamoles, but Hogg ran him close in my eyes. Well done Stuart

Team of the 6 nations. - Easy 'ENGLAND'

Yep.

Unbeatable.

Stop fishing TH!!!

Hogg again......BS will be happy.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Stop fishing TH!!!

Hogg again......BS will be happy.

If Glory Hogger hadn't won the award last year, I would have praised Hogg but seems to be getting far too overhyped.

Problem is Scottish fans will vote for him in their thousands because he's one of the only players most armchair fans have heard of because he runs fast.

Runs fast - give him the award.

As for your team of the tournament - some very laughable choices.

Biggar and Joseph seriously?

Joseph turned up for one game basically. Good player but had a poor tournament aside for one game when he had a feast.

Biggar - only Canna was worse of all the 10s.

Hogg was deserving of the award imo.

I completely agree with Beshocked!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Hogg was deserving of the award imo.

Perhaps this year yes but still no way he should have won last year.

I know you think very highly of Hogg though so you'd just hand him the award every year!

Thank you geordiefalcon.

I don't want to sound too bitter but Launchbury's contribution was more telling than Hogg's and he deserved the award.

I wouldn't have voted for him either year but he would have been in my top 3. It's certainly no travesty he got it either time.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't want to sound too bitter but Launchbury's contribution was more telling than Hogg's and he deserved the award.

That's a perfectly reasonable opinion to hold regarding Launchbury's contribution. Launchbury would definitely have deserved it had he won it, but he received fewer votes than Hogg - 19,000 more people made a judgment based on their reflections on the tournament and felt that Hogg deserved it more. So no, Launchbury didn't deserve it.

IanBru wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't want to sound too bitter but Launchbury's contribution was more telling than Hogg's and he deserved the award.

That's a perfectly reasonable opinion to hold regarding Launchbury's contribution. Launchbury would definitely have deserved it had he won it, but he received fewer votes than Hogg - 19,000 more people made a judgment based on their reflections on the tournament and felt that Hogg deserved it more. So no, Launchbury didn't deserve it.

Scots seem to vote more. It's why Murray seems to win sports personality of the year so often in recent years.

Hogg just happens to be someone people recognise because he can run fast.

More often than not it's a back who wins the award.

Completely ignore that Russell has basically been feeding Hogg. Hogg's performances wouldn't have been possible without Russell pulling the strings.

Hogg was constantly excellent, was any other player? He does a lot more than "run fast", hes got a complete game.

Where is the breakdown that provides proof that Scots vote more?

Not sure you can people only vote for their own....though I would have twice! Hogg would walk into the England team and massively improve us.

I voted for CJ Stander, Beshocked. I presume you have something other than your intuition to back up your argument? Maybe a regional breakdown of the vote?

I have no proof this time to be fair but you ignore most of my evidence when I do have it so...... (talking to Pooly not you Ianbru)

Hogg didn't play every game. I'd say Stander was consistently good. Didn't need another player to pull the strings for him either.

Picamoles was too.

Hogg relied on others especially Russell a bit too much IMO.

As I said I'd be a bit more understanding of Hogg getting it if he didn't win last year.

No proof......ah ok.

beshocked wrote:

IanBru wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't want to sound too bitter but Launchbury's contribution was more telling than Hogg's and he deserved the award.

That's a perfectly reasonable opinion to hold regarding Launchbury's contribution. Launchbury would definitely have deserved it had he won it, but he received fewer votes than Hogg - 19,000 more people made a judgment based on their reflections on the tournament and felt that Hogg deserved it more. So no, Launchbury didn't deserve it.

Scots seem to vote more. It's why Murray seems to win sports personality of the year so often in recent years.

Hogg just happens to be someone people recognise because he can run fast.

More often than not it's a back who wins the award.

Completely ignore that Russell has basically been feeding Hogg. Hogg's performances wouldn't have been possible without Russell pulling the strings.

Are you serious with this chat?

Nothing to do with his successes? Gold medals at olympics, winning wimbledon and a host of other tournaments, becoming world number 1....nope none of this matters, it's because he is Scottish.

Way to belittle the achievements of these people based on your assumption that Scottish people vote more.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:No proof......ah ok.

When has proof ever mattered to you? Most of the time you ignore it anyway.

Anyone on a rugby field needs the rest though. A strong carry needs to breakdown work of the guys following. The offloaded needs the guy taking the catch etc etc. Hogg played well...good for him.

EWT Spoons wrote:

beshocked wrote:

IanBru wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't want to sound too bitter but Launchbury's contribution was more telling than Hogg's and he deserved the award.

That's a perfectly reasonable opinion to hold regarding Launchbury's contribution. Launchbury would definitely have deserved it had he won it, but he received fewer votes than Hogg - 19,000 more people made a judgment based on their reflections on the tournament and felt that Hogg deserved it more. So no, Launchbury didn't deserve it.

Scots seem to vote more. It's why Murray seems to win sports personality of the year so often in recent years.

Hogg just happens to be someone people recognise because he can run fast.

More often than not it's a back who wins the award.

Completely ignore that Russell has basically been feeding Hogg. Hogg's performances wouldn't have been possible without Russell pulling the strings.

Are you serious with this chat?

Nothing to do with his successes?  Gold medals at olympics, winning wimbledon and a host of other tournaments, becoming world number 1....nope none of this matters, it's because he is Scottish.

Way to belittle the achievements of these people based on your assumption that Scottish people vote more.

Murray deserves to be recognised but 3 times in the last 4 years? Come on seriously? Murray has done well but in his sport he's not exceptional.

Same with Hogg sure, give him the award in 2017 but 2 in a row? That's a joke seriously?

I am not saying Hogg and Murray aren't impressive athletes but IMO they've got too much hype and praise.

beshocked wrote:I have no proof this time to be fair but you ignore most of my evidence when I do have it so...... (talking to Pooly not you Ianbru)

Hogg didn't play every game. I'd say Stander was consistently good.  Didn't need another player to pull the strings for him either.

Picamoles was too.

Hogg relied on others especially Russell a bit too much IMO.

As I said I'd be a bit more understanding of Hogg getting it if he didn't win last year.

Sorry to keep quoting you here, but this is nonsense.

"Didn't need another player to pull the strings for him either."  - Fair point, I mean Rugby is famously a game played 1 v 1 and it's not like all teams rely on their 9 & 10 to dictate play.

"As I said I'd be a bit more understanding of Hogg getting it if he didn't win last year." - Because you can only be good once?  Should he just retire now because he's never going to get better or even as good as 2016?

If we are honest there's obviously going to be Celt bias. You can tell by some of the posters on here they'd never vote for an English player, and they don't win even in years England win the 6 Nations.

beshocked wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:

beshocked wrote:

IanBru wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't want to sound too bitter but Launchbury's contribution was more telling than Hogg's and he deserved the award.

That's a perfectly reasonable opinion to hold regarding Launchbury's contribution. Launchbury would definitely have deserved it had he won it, but he received fewer votes than Hogg - 19,000 more people made a judgment based on their reflections on the tournament and felt that Hogg deserved it more. So no, Launchbury didn't deserve it.

Scots seem to vote more. It's why Murray seems to win sports personality of the year so often in recent years.

Hogg just happens to be someone people recognise because he can run fast.

More often than not it's a back who wins the award.

Completely ignore that Russell has basically been feeding Hogg. Hogg's performances wouldn't have been possible without Russell pulling the strings.

Are you serious with this chat?

Nothing to do with his successes?  Gold medals at olympics, winning wimbledon and a host of other tournaments, becoming world number 1....nope none of this matters, it's because he is Scottish.

Way to belittle the achievements of these people based on your assumption that Scottish people vote more.

Murray deserves to be recognised but 3 times in the last 4 years? Come on seriously? Murray has done well but in his sport he's not exceptional.

Same with Hogg sure, give him the award in 2017 but 2 in a row? That's a joke seriously?

I am not saying Hogg and Murray aren't impressive athletes but IMO they've got too much hype and praise.

You're totally right, world number 1 is not exceptional, winning gold medals at the olympics is not exceptional, everyone is totally capable of that. I mean I achieved that before breakfast today, what's all the fuss about.

beshocked wrote:I have no proof this time to be fair but you ignore most of my evidence when I do have it so...... (talking to Pooly not you Ianbru)

Hogg didn't play every game. I'd say Stander was consistently good. Didn't need another player to pull the strings for him either.

Picamoles was too.

Hogg relied on others especially Russell a bit too much IMO.

As I said I'd be a bit more understanding of Hogg getting it if he didn't win last year.

I think you'll find he did......you're on fire today.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

beshocked wrote:I have no proof this time to be fair but you ignore most of my evidence when I do have it so...... (talking to Pooly not you Ianbru)

Hogg didn't play every game. I'd say Stander was consistently good. Didn't need another player to pull the strings for him either.

Picamoles was too.

Hogg relied on others especially Russell a bit too much IMO.

As I said I'd be a bit more understanding of Hogg getting it if he didn't win last year.

I think you'll find he did......you're on fire today.

Played against England? I think he was in the pub after 20 minutes.

2011 census

Population of Scotland - 5,295,000
Population of England - 53,012,456

The player of the year lets one person (or IP address) vote. So the argument that Scottish folk voted more than English is laughable!

Hogg and Murray winning is down to the fact that everyone (English, Welsh, Irish and Scots) thought that these players were deserving regardless of their nationality.

This is one of the reasons that some in Scotland want independence because the small, narrow mindedness of some English people drives a similar narrow mindedness in their Scottish counterparts!

Scottrf wrote:If we are honest there's obviously going to be Celt bias. You can tell by some of the posters on here they'd never vote for an English player, and they don't win even in years England win the 6 Nations.

Wow - just wow

R!skysports wrote:Wow - just wow

Not saying he didn't play well. He did, and he has bright boots so I can see why people would vote for him.

R!skysports wrote:

Scottrf wrote:If we are honest there's obviously going to be Celt bias. You can tell by some of the posters on here they'd never vote for an English player, and they don't win even in years England win the 6 Nations.

Wow - just wow

Launchberry had a great Tournament. So did Hogg. Perhaps it would be fairer to have back of the tournament and forward of the tournament, but sadly I don't get to make the rules.

For me the best players were Hogg, Launchberry, Warburton, Furlong and Guirado.

Only one back in my picks, so I suppose it shows how well Hogg played to earn the accolade.

Very good point Rugger, think my top 5 would have only had the one back in as well. Possibly Farrell sneaking in.

Scottrf wrote:

R!skysports wrote:Wow - just wow

Not saying he didn't play well. He did, and he has bright boots so I can see why people would vote for him.

Also scored a load of tries and was key part of almost every try Scotland scored - until knocked off the pitch against England

Several high profile try saving tackles as well

That might be more a reason than he is Scottish and bright boots


I actually voted for Billy last year...

R!skysports wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

R!skysports wrote:Wow - just wow

Not saying he didn't play well. He did, and he has bright boots so I can see why people would vote for him.

Also scored a load of tries and was key part of almost every try Scotland scored - until knocked off the pitch against England

Several high profile try saving tackles as well

That might be more a reason than he is Scottish and bright boots


I actually voted for Billy last year...

I voted for Kruis

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

R!skysports wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

R!skysports wrote:Wow - just wow

Not saying he didn't play well. He did, and he has bright boots so I can see why people would vote for him.

Also scored a load of tries and was key part of almost every try Scotland scored - until knocked off the pitch against England

Several high profile try saving tackles as well

That might be more a reason than he is Scottish and bright boots


I actually voted for Billy last year...

I voted for Kruis

#fakenews

You must be lying - he ain't Scottish...

He was my pick but Kruis didn't make the shortlist did he?

No 7&1/2 wrote:He was my pick but Kruis didn't make the shortlist did he?

I'm fairly sure he did. Wasn't he man of the match against Scotland hence on the shortlist by default?

Scottrf wrote:If we are honest there's obviously going to be Celt bias. You can tell by some of the posters on here they'd never vote for an English player, and they don't win even in years England win the 6 Nations.

You sound like the English equivalent of mikey_dragon with a post like that. "Everyone hates us".

Arrogance isn't an admirable trait, and unfortunately when it is displayed by any country they will receive less praise than they might otherwise from others. It is being displayed quite a bit on this page alone with regards to Hogg, who deservedly won the award. What is essentially being said is  that an English player should have won it. Well, I disagree. The best player regardless of country should have won it.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Scottrf wrote:If we are honest there's obviously going to be Celt bias. You can tell by some of the posters on here they'd never vote for an English player, and they don't win even in years England win the 6 Nations.

You sound like the English equivalent of mikey_dragon with a post like that. "Everyone hates us".

Arrogance isn't an admirable trait, and unfortunately when it is displayed by any country they will receive less praise than they might otherwise from others. It is being displayed quite a bit on this page alone with regards to Hogg, who deservedly won the award. What is essentially being said is  that an English player should have won it. Well, I disagree. The best player regardless of country should have won it.

I didn't say I think an English player should win it, I think it should have been Picamoles. The arrogance thing is a cliche not really correct - I would say on average English posters rated our chances in most games lower than other posters.

EWT Spoons wrote:

beshocked wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:

beshocked wrote:

IanBru wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't want to sound too bitter but Launchbury's contribution was more telling than Hogg's and he deserved the award.

That's a perfectly reasonable opinion to hold regarding Launchbury's contribution. Launchbury would definitely have deserved it had he won it, but he received fewer votes than Hogg - 19,000 more people made a judgment based on their reflections on the tournament and felt that Hogg deserved it more. So no, Launchbury didn't deserve it.

Scots seem to vote more. It's why Murray seems to win sports personality of the year so often in recent years.

Hogg just happens to be someone people recognise because he can run fast.

More often than not it's a back who wins the award.

Completely ignore that Russell has basically been feeding Hogg. Hogg's performances wouldn't have been possible without Russell pulling the strings.

Are you serious with this chat?

Nothing to do with his successes?  Gold medals at olympics, winning wimbledon and a host of other tournaments, becoming world number 1....nope none of this matters, it's because he is Scottish.

Way to belittle the achievements of these people based on your assumption that Scottish people vote more.

Murray deserves to be recognised but 3 times in the last 4 years? Come on seriously? Murray has done well but in his sport he's not exceptional.

Same with Hogg sure, give him the award in 2017 but 2 in a row? That's a joke seriously?

I am not saying Hogg and Murray aren't impressive athletes but IMO they've got too much hype and praise.

You're totally right, world number 1 is not exceptional, winning gold medals at the olympics is not exceptional, everyone is totally capable of that.  I mean I achieved that before breakfast today, what's all the fuss about.

In his sport I said. Murray is the best British tennis player of all time but 3 slams is a small amount when compared to his main rivals. Look I don't want to bash Murray. He's done well but come on - 3 SPOTY in 4 years is excessive. There are other sportsmen in Britain.

Similarly there are other rugby players in the 6 nations not just Hogg.

Sorry I didn't realise being carted off injured after 18 minutes counted as a notable appearance but sure, yes technically Hogg did play vs England, just didn't last long.

Apologies you are correct.

I'm not sure what tennis has to do with this thread??

Hope this link works rugger http://www.rbs6nations.com/mobile/en/news/29945.php#ktD8ISvuieHY4vEt.97