British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

First topic message reminder :

Fairly simple, champions cup aside, we have nearly all the information Garland will have to pick the Lions squad, so go ahead name your squad, your captain etc.

mikey_dragon wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I'm going to try and do this as sensibly as possible and try to avoid the thread being sucked down to the WUMmerry swamp of madness, no holds bard shoot out thread. I appreciate with the V2 clientele that might be a challenge.

14 English
12 Irish
9 Scots
8 Welsh

No. Too many Scots.

As I said I justified my selections based on the 6N table and the Lion representation in my squad reflects that.

For years when Scotland were performing badly we had all manner of posters on here saying we had to start winning 6N games to get better represented in the Lions squad.  We are doing that now, and Wales and the player who play for Wales are regressing. Surely this must have an impact on selection?

Wales have good individuals, no doubt but that barren 6N in terms of try scoring has to count for something.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I'm going to try and do this as sensibly as possible and try to avoid the thread being sucked down to the WUMmerry swamp of madness, no holds bard shoot out thread. I appreciate with the V2 clientele that might be a challenge.

14 English
12 Irish
9 Scots
8 Welsh

No. Too many Scots.

As I said I justified my selections based on the 6N table and the Lion representation in my squad reflects that.

For years when Scotland were performing badly we had all manner of posters on here saying we had to start winning 6N games to get better represented in the Lions squad.  We are doing that now, and Wales and the player who play for Wales are regressing. Surely this must have an impact on selection?

Wales have good individuals, no doubt but that barren 6N in terms of try scoring has to count for something.

Just wumming. I think your selection was good and completely fair, although I believe slightly less Scots and Welsh will tour. Mako shouldn't tour, Rob Evans should go in his place. I just don't see what all the fuss is about with Mako. Marler and McGrath are class at LH, but I don't think we're as strong on the TH side. A welsh option or Sinckler could get the nod there. Hartley in place of Best.
Those are the more obvious ones for me.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I'm going to try and do this as sensibly as possible and try to avoid the thread being sucked down to the WUMmerry swamp of madness, no holds bard shoot out thread. I appreciate with the V2 clientele that might be a challenge.

14 English
12 Irish
9 Scots
8 Welsh

No. Too many Scots.

As I said I justified my selections based on the 6N table and the Lion representation in my squad reflects that.

For years when Scotland were performing badly we had all manner of posters on here saying we had to start winning 6N games to get better represented in the Lions squad.  We are doing that now, and Wales and the player who play for Wales are regressing. Surely this must have an impact on selection?

Wales have good individuals, no doubt but that barren 6N in terms of try scoring has to count for something.

The rules for Scotland and Wales are rather different. Wales have run riot in the 6 Nations until recently when Gats started to take his sabbaticals to win Lions tours, whereas the Scots have run and hid for years. First decent 6 Nations they've had in i can't remember how long and beating Wales isn't going to change it overnight. It will take more than that to suddenly become Lions.

mikey_dragon wrote:
I just don't see what all the fuss is about with Mako. Marler and McGrath are class at LH, but I don't think we're as strong on the TH side. A welsh option or Sinckler could get the nod there.

Loathed as I am to admit it I fully agree with you on Mako, he's better with his hands than most props but I much prefer a strong scrummager.

Gwlad wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I'm going to try and do this as sensibly as possible and try to avoid the thread being sucked down to the WUMmerry swamp of madness, no holds bard shoot out thread. I appreciate with the V2 clientele that might be a challenge.

14 English
12 Irish
9 Scots
8 Welsh

No. Too many Scots.

As I said I justified my selections based on the 6N table and the Lion representation in my squad reflects that.

For years when Scotland were performing badly we had all manner of posters on here saying we had to start winning 6N games to get better represented in the Lions squad.  We are doing that now, and Wales and the player who play for Wales are regressing. Surely this must have an impact on selection?

Wales have good individuals, no doubt but that barren 6N in terms of try scoring has to count for something.

The rules for Scotland and Wales are rather different. Wales have run riot in the 6 Nations until recently when Gats started to take his sabbaticals to win Lions tours, whereas the Scots have run and hid for years. First decent 6 Nations they've had in i can't remember how long and beating Wales isn't going to change it overnight. It will take more than that to suddenly become Lions.  

I would have both Scotland and Wales at between 5-10 each. But this idea of picking Welsh players on account of their form over the last 4 years is ludicrous. Wales don't have bad players by any stretch but the Lions won't win this series by basing their selection on the 2012-2013 form of Welsh players. They only just won it in 2013 doing that.

The Lions will only win the series if they pick the players playing the best currently and on that basis it's hard to warrant a large number of Welsh tourists. 5th in the six nations and no champions cup knockout representation means that making the case for Welsh players on the basis of form.

I do however agree to the extent that the rules are a bit different; there are some players who are so good that they should tour whatever. Players like Farrell and Sexton to name but two. Wales have 3-4 players in that category, guys like Alun Wyn Jones and Toby faletau, maybe Jonathan Davies and probably Jamie Roberts up until 18 months ago. And on top of that you'd expect 5 guys to go who aren't in that kind of top bracket.

But this notion of Wales "running riot" is quite inaccurate, in the four year period Ireland have won two and England have won two. In the World Cup you'd have to say Scotland and Wales were the most impressive. Domestically the French have dominated the premier competition up untik Saracens came to the fore so it's not realistic to suggest Wales were an all conquering side up until 12 months ago. Even if they were it has been shown time and time again that the tactics employed by the Welsh to great success in Europe are not as effective in the south, Garland and the Lions will have to something better than anything any (and this is not a dig at Wales rather a simple fact about British and Irish rugby) of them have done before. Wales have a very good team with very good players but not the extent that the Lions can gloss over what has been a poor 12 months by Welsh standards.

Gwlad wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I'm going to try and do this as sensibly as possible and try to avoid the thread being sucked down to the WUMmerry swamp of madness, no holds bard shoot out thread. I appreciate with the V2 clientele that might be a challenge.

14 English
12 Irish
9 Scots
8 Welsh

No. Too many Scots.

As I said I justified my selections based on the 6N table and the Lion representation in my squad reflects that.

For years when Scotland were performing badly we had all manner of posters on here saying we had to start winning 6N games to get better represented in the Lions squad.  We are doing that now, and Wales and the player who play for Wales are regressing. Surely this must have an impact on selection?

Wales have good individuals, no doubt but that barren 6N in terms of try scoring has to count for something.

The rules for Scotland and Wales are rather different. Wales have run riot in the 6 Nations until recently when Gats started to take his sabbaticals to win Lions tours, whereas the Scots have run and hid for years. First decent 6 Nations they've had in i can't remember how long and beating Wales isn't going to change it overnight. It will take more than that to suddenly become Lions.  

Sorry this is nonsense .

Scotland came above Wales in the 6 nations and are ranked 5th in the world.

That's 3 places higher than Wales .

You don't get to 5th in the world quickly and you certainly don't get there any way other than on merit

So we can say with 100pc confidence the form team is Scotland . Not Wales

So how you can argue with any level of objectivity for more Welsh players is ridiculous.

Unless it's pure and simple bias - which I strongly believe gatland will display !

Gwlad wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I'm going to try and do this as sensibly as possible and try to avoid the thread being sucked down to the WUMmerry swamp of madness, no holds bard shoot out thread. I appreciate with the V2 clientele that might be a challenge.

14 English
12 Irish
9 Scots
8 Welsh

No. Too many Scots.

As I said I justified my selections based on the 6N table and the Lion representation in my squad reflects that.

For years when Scotland were performing badly we had all manner of posters on here saying we had to start winning 6N games to get better represented in the Lions squad.  We are doing that now, and Wales and the player who play for Wales are regressing. Surely this must have an impact on selection?

Wales have good individuals, no doubt but that barren 6N in terms of try scoring has to count for something.

The rules for Scotland and Wales are rather different. Wales have run riot in the 6 Nations until recently when Gats started to take his sabbaticals to win Lions tours, whereas the Scots have run and hid for years. First decent 6 Nations they've had in i can't remember how long and beating Wales isn't going to change it overnight. It will take more than that to suddenly become Lions.  

Why? Your boys have been largely rubbish all tournament, as Alive also pointed out you have no representation in the premier European tournament either.

Dressing up Wales 6N as anything other than abject failure is alarmingly deluded, and I hope Gatland doesn't just fill the Lions with his Welsh sycophants at the expense of the on form and fit players who deserve to tour.

This'll go down well on here, according to the presenter on ScrumV Gethin Jenkins is being shadowed by Lions selectors with a view to going on the Tour to NZ.

As a coach?

wayne wrote:This'll go down well on here, according to the presenter on ScrumV Gethin Jenkins is being shadowed by Lions selectors with a view to going on the Tour to NZ.

Gatland has no interest in winning then.

If he does select Gethin Jenkins. then you might as well say good bye to any form of winning the tour.

Do Gatland and the Welsh media think that the Lions is their exclusive IP?

If he selects Gethin Jenkins then I'll be very disappointed.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Do Gatland and the Welsh media think that the Lions is their exclusive IP?

Do you only talk about Wales and Gatland, Radge? Seems that way.

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Do Gatland and the Welsh media think that the Lions is their exclusive IP?

Do you only talk about Wales and Gatland, Radge? Seems that way.

No but I seriously doubt Eddie Jones, or Gregor Townsend or Joe Schmidt are going to have Gethin Jenkins shadowed by lions selectors. Do you?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Do Gatland and the Welsh media think that the Lions is their exclusive IP?

Do you only talk about Wales and Gatland, Radge? Seems that way.

No but I seriously doubt Eddie Jones, or Gregor Townsend or Joe Schmidt are going to have Gethin Jenkins shadowed by lions selectors. Do you?

I've just been though your posting history. The first page of results (so 50 posts I think) - I estimate over 50% of your posts are discussing Wales or Welsh players! Seems a little high You're even bringing up AWJ on the Glasgow v Edinburgh banter thread!

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Do Gatland and the Welsh media think that the Lions is their exclusive IP?

Do you only talk about Wales and Gatland, Radge? Seems that way.

No but I seriously doubt Eddie Jones, or Gregor Townsend or Joe Schmidt are going to have Gethin Jenkins shadowed by lions selectors. Do you?

I've just been though your posting history. The first page of results (so 50 posts I think) - I estimate over 50% of your posts are discussing Wales or Welsh players! Seems a little high You're even bringing up AWJ on the Glasgow v Edinburgh banter thread!

Are you stalking me? I'm flattered!

It's not personal, but mikey_dragon and Gwlad effortlessly troll me. What can I say?

It's not stalking, it's 'shadowing'

Cyril wrote:It's not stalking, it's 'shadowing'

Maybe I'm being shadowed for a job with the Lions too.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Cyril wrote:It's not stalking, it's 'shadowing'

Maybe I'm being shadowed for a job with the Lions too.

They could do with some Scottish representation on the management side. No one else from Scotland could be bothered

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Cyril wrote:It's not stalking, it's 'shadowing'

Maybe I'm being shadowed for a job with the Lions too.

They could do with some Scottish representation on the management side. No one else from Scotland could be bothered

We provide a good doctor too!

I think Townsend did the right thing, taking Scotland on tour is important, but the Lions chances of winning diminish in his absence. Howley hasn't exactly been inspired this year!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Cyril wrote:It's not stalking, it's 'shadowing'

Maybe I'm being shadowed for a job with the Lions too.

They could do with some Scottish representation on the management side. No one else from Scotland could be bothered

We provide a good doctor too!

I think Townsend did the right thing, taking Scotland on tour is important, but the Lions chances of winning diminish in his absence. Howley hasn't exactly been inspired this year!

Here we go again. Howley's only in because Townsend turned it down! You can't blame Gats or the Lions when their first choice turns them down. Someone had to go! I still haven't seen any concrete evidence that Townsend was asked to go as a deputy. Find me evidence to the contrary (I.e. that Townsend was earmarked as deputy to Howley. And not that one tweet by a Daily Mail journalist) and I'll happily eat my own words and buy you a virtual pint!

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

wayne wrote:This'll go down well on here, according to the presenter on ScrumV Gethin Jenkins is being shadowed by Lions selectors with a view to going on the Tour to NZ.

Gatland has no interest in winning then.

That's been obvious for a while. Once he appointed Howley as attack coach the Lions' chances went out the window.

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Cyril wrote:It's not stalking, it's 'shadowing'

Maybe I'm being shadowed for a job with the Lions too.

They could do with some Scottish representation on the management side. No one else from Scotland could be bothered

We provide a good doctor too!

I think Townsend did the right thing, taking Scotland on tour is important, but the Lions chances of winning diminish in his absence. Howley hasn't exactly been inspired this year!

Here we go again. Howley's only in because Townsend turned it down! You can't blame Gats or the Lions when their first choice turns them down. Someone had to go! I still haven't seen any concrete evidence that Townsend was asked to go as a deputy. Find me evidence to the contrary (I.e. that Townsend was earmarked as deputy to Howley. And not that one tweet by a Daily Mail journalist) and I'll happily eat my own words and buy you a virtual pint!

I don't know why you say "here we go again"? What would you like me to do? Ignore debate and let you have your say and not say anything in reply?

I'm not blaming Gatland for Townsend not touring with the Lions but gregor Townsend and Rob Howley are not the only attack coaches in the world In my opinion, which counts for diddly squat, taking Howley as attack coach is a great example of cronyism.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Cyril wrote:It's not stalking, it's 'shadowing'

Maybe I'm being shadowed for a job with the Lions too.

They could do with some Scottish representation on the management side. No one else from Scotland could be bothered

We provide a good doctor too!

I think Townsend did the right thing, taking Scotland on tour is important, but the Lions chances of winning diminish in his absence. Howley hasn't exactly been inspired this year!

Here we go again. Howley's only in because Townsend turned it down! You can't blame Gats or the Lions when their first choice turns them down. Someone had to go! I still haven't seen any concrete evidence that Townsend was asked to go as a deputy. Find me evidence to the contrary (I.e. that Townsend was earmarked as deputy to Howley. And not that one tweet by a Daily Mail journalist) and I'll happily eat my own words and buy you a virtual pint!

I don't know why you say "here we go again"? What would you like me to do? Ignore debate and let you have your say and not say anything in reply?

I'm not blaming Gatland for Townsend not touring with the Lions but  gregor Townsend and Rob Howley are not the only attack coaches in the world  In my opinion, which counts for diddly squat, taking Howley as attack coach is a great example of cronyism.

It's only cronyism, in the end, because others turned it down. Had Howley been approached and appointed first before considering anyone else, then yes that would be bad. But the Lions were left without an attack coach and so Howley got a shot.

Why not talk to Jason O'Halloran Scotland attack coach?
Or Mark Jones of the scarlets? Or Lancaster currently with Leinster? There were other attack coach options before picking a guy who turned one of the sharpest attacks in rugby into one of the bluntest!

Gatland spoke to O'Halloran, Townsend and a fair few over coaches involved in the Glasgow and Scotland set up and given the coaching merry go round at the moment in Scotland all turned it down.
I don't know the intricacies of the conversations but Gatland made out that he wanted Scottish representatives on the tour. Whether they had actual important roles in it is up for debate, pr whether they were token political gestures.
What I cannot get my head round is that any single Lions tour topic results in Welsh posters crying foul. The Six Nations are over now, the next time an international game takes place we will all be on the same side. I can say with some conviction I'd rather have a scenario like the last test in Australia with 13 Welsh players if it meant winning the series, than 13 Scottish players start and it meant losing. The fact is neither of the two are the in the top two sides that comprise the Lions, that means that both will inevitably have fewer than 10 players on tour. If Gatland picks more than 10 it means he will have ignored the fact that the majority of Welsh players are out of form and it will be showing incredible bias and the series will go the same way as in 2005, when an English coach ignored the in form Welsh players and took English players who had achieved success way the past.
If Gatland wins on this tour then there is a case to be made that he is the greatest ever coach of the British and Irish Lions, it is my and many others firm belief that if he has any chance of achieving that then picking a majority Welsh team/ squad as in 2013 will not result in a series win. Furthermore evidence suggests that playing Warrenball will not work against New Zealand, if you look at the era in which this Wales side has been together, two British and Irish sides have beaten New Zealand, neither of them played "warrenball".
This is not a slight on the Welsh nation, it won't have a detrimental effect on the Welsh economy if fewer than 10 players go. Support the Lions and enjoy yourself, nobody is out to get you.

Jaysus - that's fierce sensible stuff for the likes of posters around here. Are you sure you're on the right forum?

123456789 wrote:Gatland spoke to O'Halloran, Townsend and a fair few over coaches involved in the Glasgow and Scotland set up and given the coaching merry go round at the moment in Scotland all turned it down.
I don't know the intricacies of the conversations but Gatland made out that he wanted Scottish representatives on the tour. Whether they had actual important roles in it is up for debate, pr whether they were token political gestures.
What I cannot get my head round is that any single Lions tour topic results in Welsh posters crying foul. The Six Nations are over now, the next time an international game takes place we will all be on the same side. I can say with some conviction I'd rather have a scenario like the last test in Australia with 13 Welsh players if it meant winning the series, than 13 Scottish players start and it meant losing. The fact is neither of the two are the in the top two sides that comprise the Lions, that means that both will inevitably have fewer than 10 players on tour. If Gatland picks more than 10 it means he will have ignored the fact that the majority of Welsh players are out of form and it will be showing incredible bias and the series will go the same way as in 2005, when an English coach ignored the in form Welsh players and took English players who had achieved success way the past.
If Gatland wins on this tour then there is a case to be made that he is the greatest ever coach of the British and Irish Lions, it is my and many others firm belief that if he has any chance of achieving that then picking a majority Welsh team/ squad as in 2013 will not result in a series win. Furthermore evidence suggests that playing Warrenball will not work against New Zealand, if you look at the era in which this Wales side has been together, two British and Irish sides have beaten New Zealand, neither of them played "warrenball".
This is not a slight on the Welsh nation, it won't have a detrimental effect on the Welsh economy if fewer than 10 players go. Support the Lions and enjoy yourself, nobody is out to get you.

Good post, numbers. Apart from Gwlad, who likes to stir it a bit I feel (sorry Gwlad!), I haven't seen any Welsh fans saying that there should be a majority Welsh contingent. All I see is fans putting forward the case for individuals we believe are in with a shot of touring and/or starting. It's the same nationalistic bias that all 4 nations are having at this time on these threads. We see a player week in week out (like Warburton or Tipuric), we recognize they're in perhaps the form of their lives, and we are told that Hamish Watson, for example, is much better and that we're 'deluded' for suggesting one of our own. It's probably an unfamiliarity and lack of time spent watching someone like Watson that perhaps makes us plump for the Welsh player over the Scottish one. And vice versa for the Scots. No-one is out to get Scotland either, believe it or not, when we plump for x player over Seymour, Watson, Russel, et al. It's opinion and debate.

What I don't get on this forum though is the vitriol aimed at Gatland months before he's announced any team selection. It's bizarre. It's like whingeing about the weather that we'll have next Christmas.

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Cyril wrote:It's not stalking, it's 'shadowing'

Maybe I'm being shadowed for a job with the Lions too.

They could do with some Scottish representation on the management side. No one else from Scotland could be bothered

We provide a good doctor too!

I think Townsend did the right thing, taking Scotland on tour is important, but the Lions chances of winning diminish in his absence. Howley hasn't exactly been inspired this year!

Here we go again. Howley's only in because Townsend turned it down! You can't blame Gats or the Lions when their first choice turns them down. Someone had to go! I still haven't seen any concrete evidence that Townsend was asked to go as a deputy. Find me evidence to the contrary (I.e. that Townsend was earmarked as deputy to Howley. And not that one tweet by a Daily Mail journalist) and I'll happily eat my own words and buy you a virtual pint!

I don't know why you say "here we go again"? What would you like me to do? Ignore debate and let you have your say and not say anything in reply?

I'm not blaming Gatland for Townsend not touring with the Lions but  gregor Townsend and Rob Howley are not the only attack coaches in the world  In my opinion, which counts for diddly squat, taking Howley as attack coach is a great example of cronyism.

It's only cronyism, in the end, because others turned it down. Had Howley been approached and appointed first before considering anyone else, then yes that would be bad. But the Lions were left without an attack coach  and so Howley got a shot.

Townsend turned down the chance to be Howley's #2. Can't say I blame him

123456789 wrote:What I cannot get my head round is that any single Lions tour topic results in Welsh posters crying foul. The Six Nations are over now, the next time an international game takes place we will all be on the same side. I can say with some conviction I'd rather have a scenario like the last test in Australia with 13 Welsh players if it meant winning the series, than 13 Scottish players start and it meant losing.

I'm all over this. It's about the Lions now. The Lions shouldn't simply be a vehicle for, or an extension of your own team IMO.

123456789 wrote: The fact is neither of the two are the in the top two sides that comprise the Lions, that means that both will inevitably have fewer than 10 players on tour. If Gatland picks more than 10 it means he will have ignored the fact that the majority of Welsh players are out of form and it will be showing incredible bias

This I'm not quite in agreement with. I could see a situation where there are considerably more Welsh on tour than Scottish and I wouldn't consider it bias. The Welsh players may be out of form but the first test is still months away. Players in form now could drop of a cliff. The thing that the Welsh boys have that the Scottish do not is experience at the highest level. A fair chunk of that team have played in a WC Semi, won 6N, Grand slams and played a big part on Lions tours. Contrast that with a Scotland side whose biggest achievement is to have won three 6N games for the first time in a long time.

Fair play to the Scottish lads, they were decent this tournament, but if it's my head on the block, I'd want them to show they consistently excel at test level before I send them out to play in a scratch team against probably the greatest test side in history. It's the ultimate test and ultimately, when the chips are down, I'd back Roberts or Davies to do the business over Dunbar or Jones. Simply because they have time and time again. (I've picked those guys purely as an example, I'm aware Jones is out of contention anyway).

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Cyril wrote:It's not stalking, it's 'shadowing'

Maybe I'm being shadowed for a job with the Lions too.

They could do with some Scottish representation on the management side. No one else from Scotland could be bothered

We provide a good doctor too!

I think Townsend did the right thing, taking Scotland on tour is important, but the Lions chances of winning diminish in his absence. Howley hasn't exactly been inspired this year!

Here we go again. Howley's only in because Townsend turned it down! You can't blame Gats or the Lions when their first choice turns them down. Someone had to go! I still haven't seen any concrete evidence that Townsend was asked to go as a deputy. Find me evidence to the contrary (I.e. that Townsend was earmarked as deputy to Howley. And not that one tweet by a Daily Mail journalist) and I'll happily eat my own words and buy you a virtual pint!

I don't know why you say "here we go again"? What would you like me to do? Ignore debate and let you have your say and not say anything in reply?

I'm not blaming Gatland for Townsend not touring with the Lions but  gregor Townsend and Rob Howley are not the only attack coaches in the world  In my opinion, which counts for diddly squat, taking Howley as attack coach is a great example of cronyism.

It's only cronyism, in the end, because others turned it down. Had Howley been approached and appointed first before considering anyone else, then yes that would be bad. But the Lions were left without an attack coach  and so Howley got a shot.

Townsend turned down the chance to be Howley's #2. Can't say I blame him

There's no evidence of that. There's just a tweet from a Scottish daily mail journalist. Nowhere else online can I find anywhere where Townsend was offered the job as Howley's assistant. Show me a link to that and I'll happily eat my words. Everything I see related to it online is a reference to that one tweet.

Griff wrote:

123456789 wrote:Gatland spoke to O'Halloran, Townsend and a fair few over coaches involved in the Glasgow and Scotland set up and given the coaching merry go round at the moment in Scotland all turned it down.
I don't know the intricacies of the conversations but Gatland made out that he wanted Scottish representatives on the tour. Whether they had actual important roles in it is up for debate, pr whether they were token political gestures.
What I cannot get my head round is that any single Lions tour topic results in Welsh posters crying foul. The Six Nations are over now, the next time an international game takes place we will all be on the same side. I can say with some conviction I'd rather have a scenario like the last test in Australia with 13 Welsh players if it meant winning the series, than 13 Scottish players start and it meant losing. The fact is neither of the two are the in the top two sides that comprise the Lions, that means that both will inevitably have fewer than 10 players on tour. If Gatland picks more than 10 it means he will have ignored the fact that the majority of Welsh players are out of form and it will be showing incredible bias and the series will go the same way as in 2005, when an English coach ignored the in form Welsh players and took English players who had achieved success way the past.
If Gatland wins on this tour then there is a case to be made that he is the greatest ever coach of the British and Irish Lions, it is my and many others firm belief that if he has any chance of achieving that then picking a majority Welsh team/ squad as in 2013 will not result in a series win. Furthermore evidence suggests that playing Warrenball will not work against New Zealand, if you look at the era in which this Wales side has been together, two British and Irish sides have beaten New Zealand, neither of them played "warrenball".
This is not a slight on the Welsh nation, it won't have a detrimental effect on the Welsh economy if fewer than 10 players go. Support the Lions and enjoy yourself, nobody is out to get you.

Good post, numbers.  Apart from Gwlad, who likes to stir it a bit I feel (sorry Gwlad!), I haven't seen any Welsh fans saying that there should be a majority Welsh contingent.  All I see is fans putting forward the case for individuals we believe are in with a shot of touring and/or starting.  It's the same nationalistic bias that all 4 nations are having at this time on these threads.  We see a player week in week out (like Warburton or Tipuric), we recognize they're in perhaps the form of their lives, and we are told that Hamish Watson, for example, is much better and that we're 'deluded' for suggesting one of our own.  It's probably an unfamiliarity and lack of time spent watching someone like Watson that perhaps makes us plump for the Welsh player over the Scottish one.  And vice versa for the Scots.  No-one is out to get Scotland either, believe it or not, when we plump for x player over Seymour, Watson, Russel, et al.  It's opinion and debate.  

What I don't get on this forum though is the vitriol aimed at Gatland months before he's announced any team selection.  It's bizarre.  It's like whingeing about the weather that we'll have next Christmas.  

I have never really aimed vitriol at Gatland, he is a good coach and I feel that despite his penchant for overly physical rugby I think he can get the best out of just about every player under his charge.

I fully intend to give him the benefit of the doubt. I hope he will pick a balanced squad, bringing the best of Ireland, Wales, England and Scotland but there is this nagging doubt in my mind that he will just revert to type and bring a strong Welsh contingent circa the final Lions test in 2013. Now he was of course proven right in that final game and the large Welsh contingent put in very strong performances and the Lions won the match and the series with a bit to spare.

I just hope that selection won't be used as an excuse to pick more Welsh players who are out of form. When Scrum V reported that Lions Selectors were shadowing Gethin Jenkins what are we supposed to think? Marler, Mako, McGrath, Healy or Evans all playing through the six nations and playing well. If loosehead was an area of weakness I'd perhaps agree but it's not.

Griff wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Griff wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Cyril wrote:It's not stalking, it's 'shadowing'

Maybe I'm being shadowed for a job with the Lions too.

They could do with some Scottish representation on the management side. No one else from Scotland could be bothered

We provide a good doctor too!

I think Townsend did the right thing, taking Scotland on tour is important, but the Lions chances of winning diminish in his absence. Howley hasn't exactly been inspired this year!

Here we go again. Howley's only in because Townsend turned it down! You can't blame Gats or the Lions when their first choice turns them down. Someone had to go! I still haven't seen any concrete evidence that Townsend was asked to go as a deputy. Find me evidence to the contrary (I.e. that Townsend was earmarked as deputy to Howley. And not that one tweet by a Daily Mail journalist) and I'll happily eat my own words and buy you a virtual pint!

I don't know why you say "here we go again"? What would you like me to do? Ignore debate and let you have your say and not say anything in reply?

I'm not blaming Gatland for Townsend not touring with the Lions but  gregor Townsend and Rob Howley are not the only attack coaches in the world  In my opinion, which counts for diddly squat, taking Howley as attack coach is a great example of cronyism.

It's only cronyism, in the end, because others turned it down. Had Howley been approached and appointed first before considering anyone else, then yes that would be bad. But the Lions were left without an attack coach  and so Howley got a shot.

Townsend turned down the chance to be Howley's #2. Can't say I blame him

There's no evidence of that.  There's just a tweet from a Scottish daily mail journalist.  Nowhere else online can I find anywhere where Townsend was offered the job as Howley's assistant.  Show me a link to that and I'll happily eat my words.  Everything I see related to it online is a reference to that one tweet.

Fair enough

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Fair enough

Yeah, just do a little research next time and you'll be fine .

123456789 wrote:In the World Cup you'd have to say Scotland and Wales were the most impressive.

In terms of Tier one nations beaten, Ireland beat France, Wales beat England. No other Lions country (or even Six Nations country) won a game against top flight oppo.

Wales beat England (as noted), Fiji and Uruguay. They lost to Australia and South Africa.
Scotland beat Japan, Samoa and USA. They lost to South Africa and Australia.

Neither country should be overly impressed with their endeavours and to qualify either of those campaigns as a success is a very low bar, possibly dragged down by England's poor performance ("at least we did better than England", regardless of the fact we were all light years behind the SH).

Scotland have improved since the World Cup, but in trying to pinpoint their stand-out result since the World Cup all I can come up with are the home games against Ireland and Wales. While impressive, and certainly better than losing those games, playing away in New Zealand is another level entirely, and Scotland players are probably the ones with the least pedigree of winning these types of tests (England's whitewash in Australia, Ireland's win against SA away and NZ in Chicago, a number of Welsh players with important roles in the 2013 win).

This experience is at least as important as form, which can be fickle.

robbo277 wrote:

123456789 wrote:In the World Cup you'd have to say Scotland and Wales were the most impressive.

In terms of Tier one nations beaten, Ireland beat France, Wales beat England. No other Lions country (or even Six Nations country) won a game against top flight oppo.

Wales beat England (as noted), Fiji and Uruguay. They lost to Australia and South Africa.
Scotland beat Japan, Samoa and USA. They lost to South Africa and Australia.

Neither country should be overly impressed with their endeavours and to qualify either of those campaigns as a success is a very low bar, possibly dragged down by England's poor performance ("at least we did better than England", regardless of the fact we were all light years behind the SH).

Scotland have improved since the World Cup, but in trying to pinpoint their stand-out result since the World Cup all I can come up with are the home games against Ireland and Wales. While impressive, and certainly better than losing those games, playing away in New Zealand is another level entirely, and Scotland players are probably the ones with the least pedigree of winning these types of tests (England's whitewash in Australia, Ireland's win against SA away and NZ in Chicago, a number of Welsh players with important roles in the 2013 win).

This experience is at least as important as form, which can be fickle.

I certainly wasn't impressed with Wales' world cup showing, even as a Welsh supporter. Yes, we beat England. But were not that good elsewhere. Injuries did hamper us but overall we were not impressive.

robbo277 wrote:

123456789 wrote:In the World Cup you'd have to say Scotland and Wales were the most impressive.

In terms of Tier one nations beaten, Ireland beat France, Wales beat England. No other Lions country (or even Six Nations country) won a game against top flight oppo.

Wales beat England (as noted), Fiji and Uruguay. They lost to Australia and South Africa.
Scotland beat Japan, Samoa and USA. They lost to South Africa and Australia.

Neither country should be overly impressed with their endeavours and to qualify either of those campaigns as a success is a very low bar, possibly dragged down by England's poor performance ("at least we did better than England", regardless of the fact we were all light years behind the SH).

Scotland have improved since the World Cup, but in trying to pinpoint their stand-out result since the World Cup all I can come up with are the home games against Ireland and Wales. While impressive, and certainly better than losing those games, playing away in New Zealand is another level entirely, and Scotland players are probably the ones with the least pedigree of winning these types of tests (England's whitewash in Australia, Ireland's win against SA away and NZ in Chicago, a number of Welsh players with important roles in the 2013 win).

This experience is at least as important as form, which can be fickle.

It's a fair point, but you have to also look a previous Lions' successes as well, in which players have stepped up to the plate despite not having extensive experience in beating Tier One nations. Look at Keith Wood and Tom Smith in 1997, who both played like men possessed. How many Tier One nations had those two beaten prior to that tour? Wales have famously struggled to beat Australia over the years, and yet on the last tour we saw numerous Welsh players step up to the plate, particularly in that 3rd and emphatically decisive test.

Conversely you can look at 2005, which included some vastly experienced players who didn't perform and not just down to age.

Experience is obviously important, including experience of beating the team you're up against, but previous Lions tours have also shown us that talent and particularly form should count as well.

cascough wrote:

123456789 wrote:What I cannot get my head round is that any single Lions tour topic results in Welsh posters crying foul. The Six Nations are over now, the next time an international game takes place we will all be on the same side. I can say with some conviction I'd rather have a scenario like the last test in Australia with 13 Welsh players if it meant winning the series, than 13 Scottish players start and it meant losing.

I'm all over this. It's about the Lions now. The Lions shouldn't simply be a vehicle for, or an extension of your own team IMO.

123456789 wrote: The fact is neither of the two are the in the top two sides that comprise the Lions, that means that both will inevitably have fewer than 10 players on tour. If Gatland picks more than 10 it means he will have ignored the fact that the majority of Welsh players are out of form and it will be showing incredible bias

This I'm not quite in agreement with. I could see a situation where there are considerably more Welsh on tour than Scottish and I wouldn't consider it bias. The Welsh players may be out of form but the first test is still months away. Players in form now could drop of a cliff. The thing that the Welsh boys have that the Scottish do not is experience at the highest level. A fair chunk of that team have played in a WC Semi, won 6N, Grand slams and played a big part on Lions tours. Contrast that with a Scotland side whose biggest achievement is to have won three 6N games for the first time in a long time.

Fair play to the Scottish lads, they were decent this tournament, but if it's my head on the block, I'd want them to show they consistently excel at test level before I send them out to play in a scratch team against probably the greatest test side in history. It's the ultimate test and ultimately, when the chips are down, I'd back Roberts or Davies to do the business over Dunbar or Jones. Simply because they have time and time again. (I've picked those guys purely as an example, I'm aware Jones is out of contention anyway).

"I could see a situation where there are considerably more Welsh on tour than Scottish and I wouldn't consider it bias"

err how on earth couldnt it be bias ??


World Rankings

Rank  Team Points
1 New Z 94.78
2 England 89.53
3 Australia 86.35
4 Ireland 84.66
5 Scotland 82.18
6 France 82.00
7 South A      81.79
8 Wales 81.21
9 Argentina 79.91
10 Fiji        76.46

There is no rationale to pick more from lower ranked teams other than pure bias or because you want to pick not on form but on reputation, which is a sure fire way of losing before you have started.

"The Welsh players may be out of form"

in which case why are you advocating picking them over more form players ? if its reputation then take Gethin Jenkins. Oh hang on.....


"but the first test is still months away"

Hello. The date of the team selection is what matters and thats not months away, its in 3 weeks .  So Gatland needs to pick on form now not in a few months when the tests are already over .

"I'd back Roberts or Davies to do the business over Dunbar or Jones."

Oh dear, Davies has been very very average all tournament and Roberts has been p""s poor for yonks. Neither would get on the Scottish bench now.

And to make that point clearer

Wales scored 8 tries in 6n
Scotland 14.

Thats not an insignificant difference. Its 75pc more !!

So you are advocating picking players who struggle to score in the 6n  . Its nonsense

I fully expect more Welsh players to be selected and I don't think it would be bias at all, it's about forming the best team possible not necessarily just picking the best players.

A team consisting mainly of English, Irish and Welsh players would gel better in my opinion, using just the six nations as a form guide is too simplistic.

I wouldn't pick Davies or Roberts myself but they were exposed defensively the way Dunbar and Jones were against England, that isn't acceptable and will rightfully rule them out of contention. The All Blacks would exploit any such weakness tenfold and being good ball in hand is irrelevant if you're shipping seven tries in one game.

123456789 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I'm going to try and do this as sensibly as possible and try to avoid the thread being sucked down to the WUMmerry swamp of madness, no holds bard shoot out thread. I appreciate with the V2 clientele that might be a challenge.

14 English
12 Irish
9 Scots
8 Welsh

No. Too many Scots.

As I said I justified my selections based on the 6N table and the Lion representation in my squad reflects that.

For years when Scotland were performing badly we had all manner of posters on here saying we had to start winning 6N games to get better represented in the Lions squad.  We are doing that now, and Wales and the player who play for Wales are regressing. Surely this must have an impact on selection?

Wales have good individuals, no doubt but that barren 6N in terms of try scoring has to count for something.

The rules for Scotland and Wales are rather different. Wales have run riot in the 6 Nations until recently when Gats started to take his sabbaticals to win Lions tours, whereas the Scots have run and hid for years. First decent 6 Nations they've had in i can't remember how long and beating Wales isn't going to change it overnight. It will take more than that to suddenly become Lions.  

I would have both Scotland and Wales at between 5-10 each. But this idea of picking Welsh players on account of their form over the last 4 years is ludicrous. Wales don't have bad players by any stretch but the Lions won't win this series by basing their selection on the 2012-2013 form of Welsh players. They only just won it in 2013 doing that.

The Lions will only win the series if they pick the players playing the best currently and on that basis it's hard to warrant a large number of Welsh tourists. 5th in the six nations and no champions cup knockout representation means that making the case for Welsh players on the basis of form.

I do however agree to the extent that the rules are a bit different; there are some players who are so good that they should tour whatever. Players like Farrell and Sexton to name but two. Wales have 3-4 players in that category, guys like Alun Wyn Jones and Toby faletau, maybe Jonathan Davies and probably Jamie Roberts up until 18 months ago. And on top of that you'd expect 5 guys to go who aren't in that kind of top bracket.

But this notion of Wales "running riot" is quite inaccurate, in the four year period Ireland have won two and England have won two. In the World Cup you'd have to say Scotland and Wales were the most impressive. Domestically the French have dominated the premier competition up untik Saracens came to the fore so it's not realistic to suggest Wales were an all conquering side up until 12 months ago. Even if they were it has been shown time and time again that the tactics employed by the Welsh to great success in Europe are not as effective in the south, Garland and the Lions will have to something better than anything any (and this is not a dig at Wales rather a simple fact about British and Irish rugby) of them have done before. Wales have a very good team with very good players but not the extent that the Lions can gloss over what has been a poor 12 months by Welsh standards.

Well said.

Alive, a couple of points.

1. I don't think casgough is Welsh (English I think). So that's where there's perhaps no bias towards Wales.

2. Can I remind you that Scotland finished 4th! That's bottom half of the table. Admittedly you did beat Wales at home after having a better 2nd half. And beat us comfortably, and fair and square. But you'd think you won the tournament the way you're going on! That extra home game did it for you I reckon

Griff wrote:
2.  Can I remind you that Scotland finished 4th!  That's bottom half of the table.  Admittedly you did beat Wales at home after having a better 2nd half.  And beat us comfortably, and fair and square.  But you'd think you won the tournament the way you're going on!  That extra home game did it for you I reckon

Yeah, it's starting to get annoying now. Obviously beating Wales, who aren't that good anyway, is the biggest achievement ever for some fans.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote:
2.  Can I remind you that Scotland finished 4th!  That's bottom half of the table.  Admittedly you did beat Wales at home after having a better 2nd half.  And beat us comfortably, and fair and square.  But you'd think you won the tournament the way you're going on!  That extra home game did it for you I reckon

Yeah, it's starting to get annoying now. Obviously beating Wales, who aren't that good anyway, is the biggest achievement ever for some fans.

I think the point people are missing is -

We have had years of saying the form and winning in the 6 Nations (or not doing so) was reason enough for leaving players from the team a home. Regardless is they, as individuals were worthy

Scotland have addressed that, in the 6 nations and overall in the rankings -and have some players who are really in form

No-one has said we should have as many as the Irish or English - as they have done even better than us, and rightly have earnt the right to have the lion share of players

What Wales have done to deserve have 4 times the no of players (as suggested by some on here) than the Scottish seems strange.

Most Scottish fans are thinking Wales and Scotland will likely have around the same number. However that seems to be heresy to some supports of other nations - who feel unable to give any unbiased praise


Ah well

Gethin Jenkins for lions captain - you heard it here first - he has experience you know

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote:
2.  Can I remind you that Scotland finished 4th!  That's bottom half of the table.  Admittedly you did beat Wales at home after having a better 2nd half.  And beat us comfortably, and fair and square.  But you'd think you won the tournament the way you're going on!  That extra home game did it for you I reckon

Yeah, it's starting to get annoying now. Obviously beating Wales, who aren't that good anyway, is the biggest achievement ever for some fans.

Did our win against Ireland simply not happen? Over the course of the tournament we arguably played better than both Wales and Ireland, we certainly beat both of them in our head to heads!

It just seems that we are playing better but our reputation has been terribly damaged by bad results of the past and an anomolous game against England where our backline was in the hospital after 20 minutes...

Its so sad that despite having another good 6N, posters on here and (judging by sound bites and media reporting) the Lions coaches simply do not rate us.

Seemingly past performances mean more than current form.

I also have to agree, Jamie Roberts and JD wouldn't even make the bench for Scotland. I certainly wouldn't pick them ahead of Dunbar, Bennett, Taylor or Jones.

Yes Itoje can cover at 6, in the same way that I could - but it is somewhere between nil chance and no chance of happening. He had 50 minutes at "6" in the 6 Nations and was henceforward sent back to the second row, albeit that he wore the no 6 shirt. Can people not tell the difference between Itoje and Lawes who did play at "6" for the majority of the 6 Nations.

If you are relying on second rows to cover 6 in your Lions test team, then you must have gone pretty wrong with your selections. The size of the Lions squad allows for a minimum of 2 specialists in each position, plus a realistic cover like Warburton or O'Brien.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote:
2.  Can I remind you that Scotland finished 4th!  That's bottom half of the table.  Admittedly you did beat Wales at home after having a better 2nd half.  And beat us comfortably, and fair and square.  But you'd think you won the tournament the way you're going on!  That extra home game did it for you I reckon

Yeah, it's starting to get annoying now. Obviously beating Wales, who aren't that good anyway, is the biggest achievement ever for some fans.

Did our win against Ireland simply not happen? Over the course of the tournament we arguably played better than both Wales and Ireland, we certainly beat both of them in our head to heads!

It just seems that we are playing better but our reputation has been terribly damaged by bad results of the past and an anomolous game against England where our backline was in the hospital after 20 minutes...

Its so sad that despite having another good 6N, posters on here and (judging by sound bites and media reporting) the Lions coaches simply do not rate us.

Seemingly past performances mean more than current form.

I also have to agree, Jamie Roberts and JD wouldn't even make the bench for Scotland. I certainly wouldn't pick them ahead of Dunbar, Bennett, Taylor or Jones.

I wouldn't take either on the Lions tour either. Roberts can't even get in the Wales team, for one. JD actually had a decent 6N, stats wise. People will pinpoint a 6N moment when he didn't pass, or a try was conceded through the centre channel, etc. but he was one of the highest centres (if not highest) for stats like defenders beaten, yards made, etc. But since BOD-gate he's been under the microscope! But for me there's better 13s out there to take. Shame about Huw Jones. Looked excellent in attack against England.

R!skysports wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote:
2.  Can I remind you that Scotland finished 4th!  That's bottom half of the table.  Admittedly you did beat Wales at home after having a better 2nd half.  And beat us comfortably, and fair and square.  But you'd think you won the tournament the way you're going on!  That extra home game did it for you I reckon

Yeah, it's starting to get annoying now. Obviously beating Wales, who aren't that good anyway, is the biggest achievement ever for some fans.

I think the point people are missing is -

We have had years of saying the form and winning in the 6 Nations (or not doing so) was reason enough for leaving players from the team a home. Regardless is they, as individuals were worthy

Scotland have addressed that, in the 6 nations and overall in the rankings -and have some players who are really in  form

No-one has said we should have as many as the Irish or English -  as they have done even better than us, and rightly have earnt the right to have the lion share of players

What Wales have done to deserve have 4 times the no of players (as suggested by some on here) than the Scottish seems strange.

Most Scottish fans are thinking Wales and Scotland will likely have around the same number. However that seems to be heresy  to some supports of other nations - who feel unable to give any unbiased praise


Ah well

Gethin Jenkins for lions captain - you heard it here first - he has experience you know

Who has suggested 4 times Welsh players than Scottish?! Whoever it was needs shooting.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote: the Lions coaches simply do not rate us.

Crikey the only Scotsman the Lions head coach picked last time was the 2 time 6N player of the tournament to play out of position for the dirt trackers, what were you expecting to happen?

In seriousness I think the Scots played some of the best rugby of the tournament (in line with what Glasgow have been showing in recent years) but the poor defensive performance against England will be all the ammunition the selectors need to favour the Welsh in the 50:50 selection calls I'm afraid.

R!skysports wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Griff wrote:
2.  Can I remind you that Scotland finished 4th!  That's bottom half of the table.  Admittedly you did beat Wales at home after having a better 2nd half.  And beat us comfortably, and fair and square.  But you'd think you won the tournament the way you're going on!  That extra home game did it for you I reckon

Yeah, it's starting to get annoying now. Obviously beating Wales, who aren't that good anyway, is the biggest achievement ever for some fans.

I think the point people are missing is -

We have had years of saying the form and winning in the 6 Nations (or not doing so) was reason enough for leaving players from the team a home. Regardless is they, as individuals were worthy

Scotland have addressed that, in the 6 nations and overall in the rankings -and have some players who are really in  form

No-one has said we should have as many as the Irish or English -  as they have done even better than us, and rightly have earnt the right to have the lion share of players

What Wales have done to deserve have 4 times the no of players (as suggested by some on here) than the Scottish seems strange.

Most Scottish fans are thinking Wales and Scotland will likely have around the same number. However that seems to be heresy  to some supports of other nations - who feel unable to give any unbiased praise


Ah well

Gethin Jenkins for lions captain - you heard it here first - he has experience you know

The point you're missing is Gwlad doesn't speak for Gatland or Wales. I agree with you that Ireland and England will supply the most players, whilst Scotland and Wales will supply around the same amount.

It seems there's a few England fans on here who don't rate Scotland that highly, or as highly as some Scots which is fine, but then the standard response to that from Scotland fans is to slag off team Wales. I just don't get it.

I'm thinking back to Rugger Radge's selection here - it was quite well balanced and had a fair amount of Scottish and Welsh players. I couldn't see many disagreeing either.