British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

First topic message reminder :

Fairly simple, champions cup aside, we have nearly all the information Garland will have to pick the Lions squad, so go ahead name your squad, your captain etc.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:12 players from the team that finished 5th in the 6N? RIP the Lions!

Says it all when the coach didn't turn up to watch Eng vs Scotland.

It is hard to quibble about many of the Welsh players when looked at individually. 1/2p is extremely fortunate, but other than that there are merits about all the guys selected (even the shock one of Moriarty).

Yes, I'll leave this thread to everyone else I think.

We all know what sort of comments are coming.

Well done on those selected.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:12 players from the team that finished 5th in the 6N? RIP the Lions!

Thankfully JJ is there instead of Roberts but still baffling that Wales are so over represented.

Moriarity is in on the back of a good five minutes against England it seems, his inclusion will leave Robshaw and Watson feeling rightfully aggrieved.

IanBru wrote:I'll respectfully say I disagree with a lot of that squad, and I'll leave it at that. Have a good day folks.

+1

aucklandlaurie wrote:Cant see any problems there. bit surprised about Hartley.

Why? He had a poor six nations. He was captain and yet was subbed off most games. He also has the worst disciplinary record of any international player in world rugby. It isnt really that big a surprise.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Bloody Gatland picking a good squad that most of us agree on, god I hate him!!

Don't think you'll get many agreeing with you from north of the border.

Not the squad I would have picked by any stretch of the imagination, think there's a few players not picked who would have been had the coaching staff been different and a few players who have been picked who probably shouldn't have been.
Nonetheless I hope the Lions beat New Zealand and I will always support them and the concept but I think it's just become much more difficult to envisage.

Very sorry for the Scots. Gatland has gone and done a Woodward and selected players he knows as opposed to selecting players on form. 12 from Wales and 2 from Scotland is just not right.

It's a better squad than trailed, but Biggar, 1/2p and Moriarty are lucky to be there. I can't understand why they seem unable to see the merits of the Scots players. Moriarty over Watson?

Good luck to the Welsh English Irish Tennessee & Ayr lions.

I too will not be contributing or watching. I like the idea of the Lions but we need to find independent coaches to select the team.

Griff wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Bloody Gatland picking a good squad that most of us agree on, god I hate him!!

Don't think you'll get many agreeing with you from north of the border.

Most being who?

Plenty of Welsh posters were saying before hand that some of the Welsh players looking likely to make it shouldn't be near the squad

Its a squad of quality but its unfortunate that some players in great form miss out for players who Gatland is hoping do a job, the rest of us are praying for it too

Hamish Watson should be in that squad ahead of quite a few players

Drip fed some crazy decisions so when the squad comes through we're more relieved than picking up some of the others?

hugehandoff wrote:Very sorry for the Scots. Gatland has gone and done a Woodward and selected players he knows as opposed to selecting players on form. 12 from Wales and 2 from Scotland is just not right.

Massive injustice for the Scots who played one bad game in the 6 nations.

Kruis over Gray
Moriarty over Watson
Davies over Dunbar

Those three alone would have made me OK with the selection.

Well done to those picked though and good luck

Ineffable wrote:Good luck to the Welsh English Irish Tennessee & Ayr lions.

I too will not be contributing or watching. I like the idea of the Lions but we need to find independent coaches to select the team.

Ayr? Hogg is from Hawick!

There are not enough Welsh players in this squad in my opinion but I'll be cheering on the Lions anyway

I hope Peter O'Mahoney gets into the team. He may not be eye catching, but he adds more to the Ireland team than anyone else. He is a natural leader too.

Winzer wrote:It's a better squad than trailed, but Biggar, 1/2p and Moriarty are lucky to be there.  I can't understand why they seem unable to see the merits of the Scots players.  Moriarty over Watson?

Moriaty and Watson are different positions. You needed to say 'Tipuric/Warburton over Watson?'.

Been keeping quiet on this, as prefer to not comment on the rumours beforehand

Will just put in red the ones I disagree should be touring - due to form over the last year


Backs

Biggar, Daly, JD2, Farrell, Halfpenny, Henshaw, Hogg, Joseph, Murray, North, Nowell, Payne, Sexton, Seymour, Teo, Watson, Webb, L. Williams, Youngs.

Forwards

Best, Cole, Falatau, Furlong, George, Henderson, Itoje, AWJ, Kruis, Lawes, Marler, McGrath, Moriaty, SOB, POM, Owens, Sinckler, Stander, Tipuric, M. Vunipola, B. Vunipola, Warburton (C).

Ineffable wrote:Good luck to the Welsh English Irish Tennessee & Ayr lions.

I too will not be contributing or watching. I like the idea of the Lions but we need to find independent coaches to select the team.

Ayr?

Ayr?

Has Hogg even ever played for Ayr let alone lived there?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:Cant see any problems there. bit surprised about Hartley.

Why? He had a poor six nations. He was captain and yet was subbed off most games. He also has the worst disciplinary record of any international player in world rugby. It isnt really that big a surprise.

 Who was that player I saw at the end of the six nations holding up the six nations trophy?

Pretty much agree with Risky, except I'd probably take Biggar.

Surprisingly a pretty good squad actually.

There aren't that many Scottish players that can be aggrieved IMO - perhaps Watson and J.Gray but as for the rest?

Not really.

When it comes down to a 50-50 - Gatland would always pick the players he knows.

Analyse each position -

Prop - Scotland's main man, Nel missed the 6 nations, the others got shunted around in the 6 nations.

Hooker - Brown isn't better than any of the others, his YC rattled Scotland vs England.

2nd row - J.Gray unlucky, R.Gray not as good, the rest, not good enough.

Backrow - Watson, unlucky, the rest of the backrow simply not good enough IMO. Scotland don't have a no 8 that can match the other home nations.

Scrum Half - Laidlaw isn't as good as the ones chosen.

Fly Half - Russell was hot and cold, that England game badly damaged his chances.

Centre - England game badly damaged their chances, Huw Jones is injured anyway.

Wing - Seymour made it, Maitland and Visser aren't as good as the ones picked IMO.

Full back - Hogg deservedly there.


So when you look at it realistically Scotland should have had 4 tourists not 2.

3rd time on the trot the English Captain has been overlooked.

Dylan as a dirt tracker, leader and nasty edge would have been good to have on tour.

By positions:

LH - Marler, McGrath, Vunipola
H- Best, Owens, George
TH - Cole, Furlong, Sicnkler
L - AWJ, Henderson, Kruis, Itoje, Lawes
6/8 - Faletasu, Moriarty, SOB, POM, Stander Vunipola
7 - Tupiric, Warbuton (or 6)

SH - Webb, Youngs, Murray
SO - Sexton, Biggar
IC - Farrell, Teo, Henshaw
OC - Davies, JJ, Payne
W - Nowell, Watson, Seymour, North, Williams
FB - Hogg 1/2P

aucklandlaurie wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:Cant see any problems there. bit surprised about Hartley.

Why? He had a poor six nations. He was captain and yet was subbed off most games. He also has the worst disciplinary record of any international player in world rugby. It isnt really that big a surprise.

 Who was that player I saw at the end of the six nations holding up the six nations trophy?

Hartley is unfortunate to miss out, but then again his has not displayed the required form. He has been unlucky with injuries this season and then with suspension (I think a bit unlucky again) came into the 6Ns totally uncooked and struggled for form. George should have started. But Hartley is now getting back to some good form and I would have gambled on him. But the hookers selected are good ones so not a major drama for me.

R!skysports wrote:Been keeping quiet on this, as prefer to not comment on the rumours beforehand

Will just put in red the ones I disagree should be touring - due to form over the last year


Backs

Biggar, Daly, JD2, Farrell, Halfpenny, Henshaw, Hogg, Joseph, Murray, North, Nowell, Payne, Sexton, Seymour, Teo, Watson, Webb, L. Williams, Youngs.

Forwards

Best, Cole, Falatau, Furlong, George, Henderson, Itoje, AWJ, Kruis, Lawes, Marler, McGrath, Moriaty, SOB, POM, Owens, Sinckler, Stander, Tipuric, M. Vunipola, B. Vunipola, Warburton (C).

One of AWJ or Kruis I'd be ok with but in an area of such strength I don't see the need to include one guy who's injured and another who has just returned from injury; I'd swap both for Launchbury and J Gray.

Halfpenny and Davies have absolutely no form.

I don't dislike this team but there are a few players very lucky to go IMHO.

Henderson
Teo
Biggar
Halfpenny

So, i think i've got this right

England 16
Wales 12
Ireland 11
Scotland 2

What has Biggar done to justify being selected? - answers on a stamp PLEASE.

beshocked wrote:Surprisingly a pretty good squad actually.

There aren't that many Scottish players that can be aggrieved IMO - perhaps Watson and J.Gray but as for the rest?

Not really.

When it comes down to a 50-50 - Gatland would always pick the players he knows.

Analyse each position -

Prop - Scotland's main man, Nel missed the 6 nations, the others got shunted around in the 6 nations.

Hooker - Brown isn't better than any of the others, his YC rattled Scotland vs England.

2nd row - J.Gray unlucky, R.Gray not as good, the rest, not good enough.

Backrow - Watson, unlucky, the rest of the backrow simply not good enough IMO. Scotland don't have a no 8 that can match the other home nations.

Scrum Half - Laidlaw isn't as good as the ones chosen.

Fly Half - Russell was hot and cold, that England game badly damaged his chances.

Centre - England game badly damaged their chances, Huw Jones is injured anyway.

Wing - Seymour made it, Maitland and Visser aren't as good as the ones picked IMO.

Full back - Hogg deservedly there.


So when you look at it realistically Scotland should have had 4 tourists not 2.

The problem I have with the squad is not that only two Scottish players were picked but rather that the second most represented nation was also the fifth best team in Europe this season. The idea that Dan Biggar is the second best fly-half in our Islands is a notion that is at the very least hard to understand for example. I think that in reality of the 41 man squad we should have been looking at 15 Irish, 16 English, 5 Scottish and 5 Welsh. Instead Warren Gatland has decided to use what is the pinnacle of many players' careers to take his buddies on a jolly.

Happy enough with the squad. Glad to see Payne and Moriaty there. Disappointed for Launchbury.

So I was so so convinced that Gatland was going to pick a more balanced Lions squad this time to reflect the current competitiveness of the home nations.. yet we have 16 England players Wales (12), Ireland (11), Scotland (2).

This answers a lot of questions I had floating around in my head prior to today I suppose, does coaching staff impact on the selections? Does prior experience in the Lions 2013 tour count for a lot? Does the fact that Gatland is the head coach of Wales mean we may have a Wales heavy team?

It's funny that a Scottish backrow that dismantled Wales in the 6N has 0 players touring whilst Wales will provide 4 back row players. I think that is my biggest gripe with this selection. By all means take Warburton and make him your captain but I think Watson should be replacing one of Moriarty or Tipuric to give that extra edge the Lions need to beat NZ.

It does however mean Scotland will have a brilliant Summer tour sqaud and will be able to test a new fullback out in place of Hogg without decreasing the potency of their attack dramatically.

A strong Lions team for sure but not one for Scottish Rugby fans to feel very pleased about considering how much Scottish rugby has improved since 2013.

I think it's a pretty decent squad, albeit rather bloated at 41 (although given a few are carrying injuries at the moment).

Halfpenny is lucky to be there and a bit of an unnecessary selection with Payne, Nowell, Williams, Hogg and Watson all included. I'm also not particularly happy with Teo being picked ahead of Alex Dunbar or Duncan Taylor.

Otherwise I don't have many gripes. Henderson/AWJ over Launchbury/J Gray must surely have been close, particularly with AWJ's injury situation, however these are four stellar players and I'm a big fan of Henderson. Not sure you can say he's there on merit over Launchbury or Gray, but he's a very good player.

Maitland might look at Jack Nowell and query that call, but it's pretty much 50/50 for me.

Hamish Watson has been superb, but Warburton was excellent in the 6 Nations and Tipuric is a class act. SOB isn't quite what he once was, but he's a very powerful player with bags of experience. I'm not sure I'd have picked Watson either to be honest.

I can see the logic of fellow Scots being hacked off, but I don't see any screaming injustices when you look at this individual by individual.

Based on the squad, my test backline would be :

09 : Murray
10 : Sexton
11 : Nowell
12 : Farrell
13 : Joseph
14 : Williams
15 : Hogg

It has to be bloated given the crazy schedule.

11 Irish players. I hope they all come back in one piece.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Jared Payne in and Roberts out according to reports.....not sure what is worse.

Not surprised. Gatland seems to favour Kiwis. Payne is an excellent all rounder too. Defensively very sound at 13 and excellent in attack at fullback. He would be a much better option than Roberts who isnt much more than a human cannon ball.

He's a bit of meh/meh selection though. Not really offering that much in attack at 13 and steady no more at FB. I just getting underwhelmed by these defence first type players, seems there is only Hogg with any real spark. Payne is a good defender though, I concur!

Lol.

eirebilly wrote:Based on the squad, my test backline would be :

09 : Murray
10 : Sexton
11 : Nowell
12 : Farrell
13 : Joseph
14 : Williams
15 : Hogg

Switch Nowell with Watson and I'm with you. Bench: Webb, Henshaw and North.

RDW_Scotland wrote:By positions:

LH - Marler, McGrath, Vunipola
H- Best, Owens, George
TH - Cole, Furlong, Sicnkler
L - AWJ, Henderson, Kruis, Itoje, Lawes
6/8 - Faletasu, Moriarty, SOB, POM, Stander Vunipola
7 - Tupiric, Warbuton (or 6)

SH - Webb, Youngs, Murray
SO - Sexton, Biggar
IC - Farrell, Teo, Henshaw
OC - Davies, JJ, Payne
W - Nowell, Watson, Seymour, North, Williams
FB - Hogg 1/2P

During the presentation they put up pictures of the players in kit with club, country and position listed. Farrell was down as a Fly Half on that (not to say he will not play centre of course)

Did not see what they listed Liam Willimas as, but I hope he is considered the back-up FB ahead of 1/2p.

Gotta feel sorry for Launchbury! What more did he have to do!!!!

The problem with such a big squad an a small number of games is that come the first test, if he is going to give every player a shot, most of the players will have only had 2-3 games and only 1-2 starts. Not much team to gel as a team.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Gotta feel sorry for Launchbury! What more did he have to do!!!!

Be an out of form injured Welshman!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Gotta feel sorry for Launchbury! What more did he have to do!!!!

Be an out of form injured Welshman!

Lol

GeordieFalcon wrote:Gotta feel sorry for Launchbury! What more did he have to do!!!!

Jonny Gray is in the same boat. It's just an extremely competitive position. Alarmingly, none are as good as Brodie Retallick.....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Gotta feel sorry for Launchbury! What more did he have to do!!!!

To hell with it, Geordie. He'll be with his own coach for England's tour (not a bad side to be touring with) or might even get a needed break.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Gotta feel sorry for Launchbury! What more did he have to do!!!!

Be an out of form injured Welshman!

AWJ could have been on the verge of losing a leg and Gatland would still have picked him, seemingly it's better to be outplayed than outplay your opposite number. Previous Lions experience will be the reason unfortunately.

Launchbury and Jonny Gray correct me if I'm wrong made more tackles than anyone else with less missed than anyone else?

In all seriousness though, I've identified two areas of grave concern!

1. He's taken one openside to tour (given that warbs seems to be a 6 these days)
2. What will happen when Sexton is injured? Left with Biggar (and no, Farrell is not a 10. He's a 12 and you don't want to be playing someone out of position against the blackness)

Representation by Club (correct I think):

Bath: 3
Blues: 1
Exeter: 1
Glasgow: 2
Gloucester: 1
Harlequins: 2
Leicester: 2
Leinster: 5
Munster: 3
Northampton: 2
Ospreys: 4
Saracens: 6
Scarlets: 3
Toulon: 1
Ulster: 3
Wasps: 1
Worcester: 1

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think it's a pretty decent squad, albeit rather bloated at 41 (although given a few are carrying injuries at the moment).

Halfpenny is lucky to be there and a bit of an unnecessary selection with Payne, Nowell, Williams, Hogg and Watson all included. I'm also not particularly happy with Teo being picked ahead of Alex Dunbar or Duncan Taylor.

Otherwise I don't have many gripes. Henderson/AWJ over Launchbury/J Gray must surely have been close, particularly with AWJ's injury situation, however these are four stellar players and I'm a big fan of Henderson. Not sure you can say he's there on merit over Launchbury or Gray, but he's a very good player.

Maitland might look at Jack Nowell and query that call, but it's pretty much 50/50 for me.

Hamish Watson has been superb, but Warburton was excellent in the 6 Nations and Tipuric is a class act. SOB isn't quite what he once was, but he's a very powerful player with bags of experience. I'm not sure I'd have picked Watson either to be honest.

I can see the logic of fellow Scots being hacked off, but I don't see any screaming injustices when you look at this individual by individual.

From my perspective, it's the very tight 50/50's.

You would lose very little/nothing in picking Maitland over Nowell, or Gray over Henderson, or Watson over Tipuric. You are right though, for the players he has chosen you can make great arguments, individual by individual. However, this is supposed to be the British and Irish Lions, and it doesn't feel that way to me.

I will still be looking out with interest, and wish the squad all the best, but my interest will be as a casual observer and not as an ardent fan.