Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Go down

Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by miaow on Sat 06 Jan 2018, 5:10 pm

I'm a little confused about this law and it would be good to get some clarification on it. I thought it was an outdated element of amateurism that players could represent two countries - or a contravention of the laws, like Shane Howarth etc.

Cooper Vuna - twice capped for Australia in Union - is now playing for Tonga. How is that allowed; is there a specific Pacific Islanders law that allows a tier 1 player to also play for a PI test team if they're under a certain number of caps? Does it only work one-way - hence Isa Naceqa, once capped by Fiji, couldn't play for the All Blacks? Is there a similar law relating to any of the other tier 1 nations? The list below shows other players to represent two test nations - anyone know how/why this is allowed? Is it because they're tier 2/3? Cheers.


http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/records/player/representing_two_countries.html?id=1;type=class

miaow

Posts : 1369
Join date : 2011-03-31

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 06 Jan 2018, 8:08 pm

From memory wasn't this brought in when 7s got to the Olympics?

No 7&1/2

Posts : 15717
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by miaow on Sat 06 Jan 2018, 10:23 pm

Honestly I have no idea about how 7s comes into this. I thought the law was standardised a few years ago so U20s became the de facto 'second team' irrespective of whether a nation had an A team (avoiding scenarios like Steve Shingler's potential Scotland call up). Could be wrong, and I'm not sure how it really helps - it all seems quite confusing.

miaow

Posts : 1369
Join date : 2011-03-31

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 06 Jan 2018, 10:31 pm

Nope. Some u20s are 2nd teams eg wales. Some aren't eg england. This was brought in when the 8s got into the Olympics. So you could see some like Armitage swapping to France etc. Anyone can do it.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 15717
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 07 Jan 2018, 1:23 am

Olympic qualification rules and World Rugby qualification rules are different, so when Sevens became an Olympic sport, rugby had to bend a little.

For the Olympics, you need to be a citizen of the country you represent (you need a passport). A lot of players don't have them. Quade Cooper discovered he didn't have an Australian passport because he'd never applied for one. He had to hurry through the paperwork, although eventually didn't make the squad anyway. In Japan, you can't officially be a dual national, so some players are reluctant to naturalize and possible lose rights. (Many people actually keep both nationalities on the quiet but it's harder to do for high profile citizens)

There are many rugby players who have passports for countries other than the one for which they are playing Test rugby. They are entitled to represent those countries at the Olympics.

To stop a free-for-all, World Rugby decided that a player could turn out for another nation's sevens side, even if he has played international rugby for someone else, under certain conditions.

Not sure exactly how they stand now, but the basic idea is that you need to have been ignored for selection by your original country for something like two years. You then need to play sevens in one of the Olympic sevens qualifying tournaments. That's not easy to do if you are on a full time professional fifteens contract, so it's a sign of commitment if a player does that.

Lastly, to stop players abusing the process in order to switch allegiance with the primary aim of then playing Test rugby for a different side, rather than Olympic sevens, a panel is supposed to look at each case to approve the switch. In theory, a side can't get a lumbering prop back by pretending he's wanted for the sevens side.

Copper Vuna had a sufficient break from the Wallabies; he has a Tongan passport; he turned out for Tonga in an Olympic Sevens qualifier in summer 2016. As a 29 year old winger, he had a plausible case.

Rugby Fan

Posts : 4857
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by The Great Aukster on Sun 07 Jan 2018, 10:48 am

Why should it be OK for a winger to switch allegiance but not a lumbering prop?

The Great Aukster

Posts : 4577
Join date : 2011-06-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 08 Jan 2018, 3:37 am

The Great Aukster wrote:Why should it be OK for a winger to switch allegiance but not a lumbering prop?

World Rugby does not sanction switching allegiance. A player can only do so if he has a serious intention to play sevens. The route is not there to allow players to switch to a new international Test team under the guise of playing sevens. It's not that wingers are allowed but props aren't. Instead, it's just that it would be harder to say a winger was not serious about sevens. In general, anyone older, less mobile, and with no previous sevens experience, would be a hard sell. Even if an international team wanted such a player for fifteens, then they may not want to take the performance hit in sevens anyway.

Rugby Fan

Posts : 4857
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 08 Jan 2018, 9:02 am

I thought there was a rule that if a player represented a tier 1 side (AUs, NZ) but only 1/2 caps, and had an international break of 3/4 years they could then present the country of their heritage..ie Samoa, Tonga, Fiji.

Sounds like its still in place.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 20150
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by Scottrf on Mon 08 Jan 2018, 9:17 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:I thought there was a rule that if a player represented a tier 1 side (AUs, NZ) but only 1/2 caps, and had an international break of 3/4 years they could then present the country of their heritage..ie Samoa, Tonga, Fiji.

Sounds like its still in place.

No, not since 2000. Solely an Olympic 7s thing as far as I can see but you still need the 3 year break.

Scottrf

Posts : 13766
Join date : 2011-01-26

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 08 Jan 2018, 9:22 am

Ah right..is this how Stefon Armitage could potentially have ended up playing for france?

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 20150
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 08 Jan 2018, 3:04 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah right..is this how Stefon Armitage could potentially have ended up playing for france?
Yes, it was the Olympic route which opened up the possibility for Armitage to get into the French XV. The same with Toby Flood and Germany. France never seemed very interested in the idea beyond listing players who might fit the bill.

Meanwhile, Carl Fearns could play for France when he qualifies on residency, as he hasn't been capped for England. Still, France are now selecting only citizens, so he'd have to get a passport to be in contention.

Rugby Fan

Posts : 4857
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by miaow on Mon 08 Jan 2018, 8:42 pm

Cheers Rugby Fan, big help.

miaow

Posts : 1369
Join date : 2011-03-31

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by aucklandlaurie on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 2:41 am

Cooper Vuna also nearly represented New Zealand at Rugby League.

aucklandlaurie

Posts : 7496
Join date : 2011-06-27
Age : 62
Location : Auckland

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 9:07 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:Cooper Vuna also nearly represented New Zealand at Rugby League.

There are a few League/Union nationality switches. Brad Thorn is probably the highest profile but the list for England includes the likes of Henry Paul, Lesley Vainikolo and Shontayne Hape.

If a player already had three years under his belt a country with League, then he can qualify on residency grounds for that country in union. Residency isn't tied to the sport itself. That's how Solomona found his way in. Now, of course, it's five years.

Rugby Fan

Posts : 4857
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by aucklandlaurie on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 2:03 pm

Vuna would have qualified as a New Zealander on the grounds that he was born and raised here in Auckland.

aucklandlaurie

Posts : 7496
Join date : 2011-06-27
Age : 62
Location : Auckland

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 2:11 pm

Players can switch allegiance provided they have a passport for that country and haven't played international rugby for three years.

marty2086

Posts : 9723
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 32
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by Scottrf on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 2:18 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Players can switch allegiance provided they have a passport for that country and haven't played international rugby for three years.

That's not true though. Unless it's through 7s.

Scottrf

Posts : 13766
Join date : 2011-01-26

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 2:26 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Players can switch allegiance provided they have a passport for that country and haven't played international rugby for three years.
That's a necessary condition but not sufficient. The player must take part in an Olympic qualifying event too (a World Series event, or other designated tournament).

The NZ Herald looked at players who might be able to switch. Only Halai and Ioane look realistic (aside from the two they mention), and Ioane just for old-times sake. Manu Tuilagi probably included just as a bit of mischief.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11953313

Rugby Fan

Posts : 4857
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 2:50 pm

Piutau has told Tonga he wants to switch so can very much see him in Japan playing for them

marty2086

Posts : 9723
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 32
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by Scottrf on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 2:55 pm

marty2086 wrote:Piutau has told Tonga he wants to switch so can very much see him in Japan playing for them

Would require a rule change.

Scottrf

Posts : 13766
Join date : 2011-01-26

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 3:06 pm

Scottrf wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Piutau has told Tonga he wants to switch so can very much see him in Japan playing for them

Would require a rule change.
Why?

marty2086

Posts : 9723
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 32
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by Scottrf on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 3:10 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Piutau has told Tonga he wants to switch so can very much see him in Japan playing for them

Would require a rule change.
Why?
Actually he probably could if he plays in the Sevens World Series, nevermind.

Scottrf

Posts : 13766
Join date : 2011-01-26

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 3:20 pm

Scottrf wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Piutau has told Tonga he wants to switch so can very much see him in Japan playing for them

Would require a rule change.
Why?
Because the current rules wouldn't allow him to.

Except this year will see him complete three years without a Test cap and just needs to play an Olympic 7s qualifying tournament for Tonga of which there are quite a few ranging from the 7s World Series through to the different tournaments next year, most are In the summer in the months leading up to the RWC. He'd also need a Tongan passport

So what rules would stop him?

marty2086

Posts : 9723
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 32
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 3:45 pm

marty2086 wrote:So what rules would stop him?

Piutau has a route but it's no sure thing, For instance, Tonga aren't in the World Sevens Series series (they also didn't qualify for the 2018 Commonwealth Games), so he doesn't have a whole season of events to choose from. That means he has to play in a qualification tournament. If he turns his ankle, or is concussed, and can't make it that weekend, then his window is gone.

Rugby Fan

Posts : 4857
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 4:03 pm

Im not sure if the qualification process is finalised just yet but most of the qualification tournaments were in NH off season for 2016 so it would possible if he is fit, it's a long way from the rules barring him as Scott has claimed

marty2086

Posts : 9723
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 32
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 4:17 pm

He corrected himself straight away tbf.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 15717
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 4:57 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:He corrected himself straight away tbf.

Missed that Doh

marty2086

Posts : 9723
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 32
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: Representing two countries in Rugby Union - still allowed?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum