The Rugby Championship

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It starts again tomorrow. As ever the interest will wane quickly if the ABs resume their usual dismantling of all opposition. They look extremely strong with Retallick and Whitelock back in harness. Their strength in depth at 10 is frightening. The Aussies do have Pocock back, but hard to look beyond another comfortable AB win.

Argentina away in SA will be interesting I think. SA look like they are improving and Argentina play some good rugby - one to watch I think.

Hoping that somebody pushes the ABs and an Aussie win tomorrow would be the perfect tonic for the tournament, however unlikely that is.

Yeah, I guess we will see. It’s building nicely for November and also next year for Japan. There are plenty of challengers and dark horses and it’s a great thing for the game. Everything is in flux.

Collapse2005 wrote:NZ have a chance to win the Raeburn shield back from Ireland in November. Ireland are the current holders having taken it off Australia.

They won't have a chance if Ireland lose to Italy or Argentina.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:NZ have a chance to win the Raeburn shield back from Ireland in November. Ireland are the current holders having taken it off Australia.

They won't have a chance if Ireland lose to Italy or Argentina.

That's true but Argentina have never won in Dublin and Italy aren't great at the moment and Ireland have a 100% record in games played in the US so it isn't really likely is it?

Collapse2005 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:NZ have a chance to win the Raeburn shield back from Ireland in November. Ireland are the current holders having taken it off Australia.

They won't have a chance if Ireland lose to Italy or Argentina.

That's true but Argentina have never won in Dublin and Italy aren't great at the moment and Ireland have a 100% record in games played in the US so it isn't really likely is it?

It's not very likely at all. However, Argentina play Ireland, France and Scotland. They could play under-strength against you, in the hope of being in better shape for lower-ranked France (who are in the same World Cup group). Or, they could decide to throw everything they've got at their biggest challenge on tour. Since Ireland are first up, then the Argentian players should be as fresh. Doubt it will be enough because their set piece looks a mess, but it's not impossible.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:NZ have a chance to win the Raeburn shield back from Ireland in November. Ireland are the current holders having taken it off Australia.

They won't have a chance if Ireland lose to Italy or Argentina.

That's true but Argentina have never won in Dublin and Italy aren't great at the moment and Ireland have a 100% record in games played in the US so it isn't really likely is it?

It's not very likely at all. However, Argentina play Ireland, France and Scotland. They could play under-strength against you, in the hope of being in better shape for lower-ranked France (who are in the same World Cup group). Or, they could decide to throw everything they've got at their biggest challenge on tour. Since Ireland are first up, then the Argentian players should be as fresh. Doubt it will be enough because their set piece looks a mess, but it's not impossible.

Of course you are right its not impossible because in neutral grounds they beat us 75% of the time but for some reason in November they tend not to be at their best but its also true their scrum looks quite weak at the moment and they lack consistency, losing to Australia after being 30 points up was quite poor IMO which suggests as a team they lack motivation.

The best teams all have a very clear reason why they want to win which they can visit in their minds when the pressure comes on that gives them that extra motivation when they need it most. Buster Douglas' mum told everyone that her son was going to KO Mike Tyson before they fought. She died a week or so before the fight. During the fight Douglas was KO'd by Tyson who was on a 39 fight win streak but luckily Douglas was saved by the bell before the ref could count him out. When he went back to his corner his cornerman flashed him a picture of his mother and reminded him that she said he was going to KO Tyson. When Douglas got off his stool to face Tyson in the next round he had a very clear reason why in his head he would KO Tyson and that was all the motivation he needed to end Tyson's unbelievable win streak in the 10th round after being out almost cold.  

Sometimes I feel that outside of the RWC the Argentina team lack the motivation they need to win games like the November tests but don't lack any in RWC games. Australia, by contrast had all the motivation they needed to turn that game around. That's said I think the Irish backs will definitely have keep guys like Sanchez and Delguy fairly quiet to win.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Thats only because you literally dont know who the Irish flankers are. I also never described Cane as poor I said he wasnt that good which I reckon you agree with.

Also I said back up 10s, your back up 10s are light on international experience not light although McKensie is probably the lightest 10 in world rugby in terms of weight. Mo'unga the real AB back up 10 only has a few international caps and suffers bad from nerves. He has said so himself in interviews. Wouldnt want him to get the yips would you.

You seem to have a lot of trouble reading what I actually said.

You mean like the simple kick Sexton fluffed in 2013 that would have nailed the win fir Ireland, those yips you mean? Or the yips that every single Irish team has every world cup quarter. These are the yips you mean?

Or the yips Barrett got against SA this year or the yips Carter got in 2007 v France, yeah those yips. Happens top the best of them.

Carter in 07? So injury is now included in the yips. Very confusing.

He couldnt have had more opportunities to drop a winning drop goal but he blew it. He knows it, you know it, everyone knows it. Blew it in spectacular fashion.

Collapse2005 wrote:He couldnt have had more opportunities to drop a winning drop goal but he blew it. He knows it, you know it, everyone knows it. Blew it in spectacular fashion.

From the sideline? Do you not recall him sitting in the stands when the final whistle blew. He wasnt on.
And, he has proved his ability under pressure to drop goals in both the semi and final of a world cup something sexton aint got near doing so... bad example.

Well Nick Evans then. NZ Henry and Hanson had the collective yips that day. Just goes to show that losing your best players can have a big inmpact on a side including NZ in a quarter final.

Collapse2005 wrote:Well Nick Evans then.

Evans got injured too.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Well Nick Evans then.

Evans got injured too.

Beauden Barrett then. Who cares the point is they blue it and also that missing key players can make a huge difference.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Well Nick Evans then.

Evans got injured too.

Beauden Barrett then. Who cares the point is they blue it and also that missing key players can make a huge difference.

Beauden Barrett wasn’t in the ABs in 2007

ebop wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Well Nick Evans then.

Evans got injured too.

Beauden Barrett then. Who cares the point is they blue it and also that missing key players can make a huge difference.

Beauden Barrett wasn’t in the ABs in 2007

With Tongan, Samoan and Fijian guys like Shannon Frizell, Nepo Laulala, Vaea Fifita, Ofa Tu'ungafasi and Waisake Naholo in the NZ squad are NZ at risk of becoming an South Sea Islander Barbarian side? Or is it just a case of business as usual?

Collapse2005 wrote:With Tongan, Samoan and Fijian guys like Shannon Frizell, Nepo Laulala, Vaea Fifita, Ofa Tu'ungafasi and Waisake Naholo in the NZ squad are NZ at risk of becoming an South Sea Islander Barbarian side? Or is it just a case of business as usual?

If you mean do a lot of people from the Pacific Islands immigrate to New Zealand for better opportunities and then their children grow up to play for NZ, then yeah, business as usual.

Most of those guys moved to NZ after they finished school in their respective countries. Not children of immigrants.

Show the proof, this kind of accusation has been thrown about often with scant proof

Biltong wrote:Show the proof, this kind of accusation has been thrown about often with scant proof

Yes, by the same usual clowns.

Biltong wrote:Show the proof, this kind of accusation has been thrown about often with scant proof

Its pretty easy to look each of them up Billtong. Doesnt take much research. Each guys wiki page for example shows what school they went to. There have been plenty of articles written on each of them. Shannon Frizel for example played under 17s football for Tonga. He was subsequently signed by Tasman after playing them in an under 19s Islander invitational side. He has been living in NZ since 2015.

Prove me wrong.

Vaea Fifeta
Born and raised on the Tongan island of Vava'u, Fifita attended Tonga College on the larger island of Tongatapu and while there earned selection for the Tonga Schools side ahead of their tour to New Zealand. Impressive displays against New Zealand and Australia Secondary Schools Teams brought him to the attention of Tamaki College who offered him a rugby scholarship.

At least we dont buy fully fedged Internationals as the clubs and six nations do. The recent 51 players selected is less than the number of firmer All blacks playing overseas. And geez, im sure fifita and frizzell are the core reason for success for the ABs in the same way Nacewa and Lowe are for Leinster.

Have to say it’s brave of Guns to raise this given the reliance of NH clubs and national teams on NZers and our SH cousins. Players, coaches and administrators. To be fair it was a meek effort from Guns to test the waters.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Biltong wrote:Show the proof, this kind of accusation has been thrown about often with scant proof

Its pretty easy to look each of them up Billtong. Doesnt take much research. Each guys wiki page for example shows what school they went to. There have been plenty of articles written on each of them. Shannon Frizel for example played under 17s football for Tonga. He was subsequently signed by Tasman after playing them in an under 19s Islander invitational side. He has been living in NZ since 2015.

Prove me wrong.

I am not making statements Collapse, I am suggesting that accusations of poaching against NZ is often unfounded.

What I don't get is someone who supports a country themselves rather astute in poaching players would have the audacity to accuse others.

From memory Argentina is just about the only tier one nation innocent of these practices.

There is a difference between "deliberate project style poaching" via the lure of big money and players moving to other countries with families for better opportunity.

The only South African that actually went on his own without being a big name and working himself up in the English system is Mouritz Botha.

The list of South African rugby players being poached is growing by the season.

Hendre fourie for another. Always going to be hard to keep players when they are underpaid in the global workplace.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hendre fourie for another. Always going to be hard to keep players when they are underpaid in the global workplace.

The convenient excuse of rich nations to exploit the poor.

First it was colonising and exploiting resources from far off lands, now it is exploiting for human excellence.

But as they say, the rich get richer and the poor , well suck the hind teet of the donkey, eh?

Petrus du Please almost did a Botha. Never quite played for England, but worked his way up from the lower reaches tongue peak of the club game over an 18 year window.

Yeah depends what you name by big name really. I'll bow to your knowledge biltong on a people being exploited.

Biltong wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Biltong wrote:Show the proof, this kind of accusation has been thrown about often with scant proof

Its pretty easy to look each of them up Billtong. Doesnt take much research. Each guys wiki page for example shows what school they went to. There have been plenty of articles written on each of them. Shannon Frizel for example played under 17s football for Tonga. He was subsequently signed by Tasman after playing them in an under 19s Islander invitational side. He has been living in NZ since 2015.

Prove me wrong.

I am not making statements Collapse, I am suggesting that accusations of poaching against NZ is often unfounded.

What I don't get is someone who supports a country themselves rather astute in poaching players would have the audacity to accuse others.

From memory Argentina is just about the only tier one nation innocent of these practices.

There is a difference between "deliberate project style poaching" via the lure of big money and players moving to other countries with families for better opportunity.

The only South African that actually went on his own without being a big name and working himself up in the English system is Mouritz Botha.

The list of South African rugby players being poached is growing by the season.

Thats the point Billtong we hear Kiwis talk about the 5 Ireland squad players including Joey Carbery (Irish parents) born abroad all the time. I dont see much difference in whats happening in NZ. The Saffers and Kiwis come to Ireland for the exact same reasons as the islanders go and have been going to NZ.

Dont kid yourself the only reason Arentina rugby doesnt have its fair share of bum Kiwis and Aussies is because they dont have a strong well paid domestic league.

Those bum Kiwis and Aussies are keeping a heck of a lot of local NH rugby players out of professional club contracts. The standard over there must be really low if those bums and hasbeens are keeping locals out of paid work. Some of those bums even make British and Irish sides, lol. More than 60,000 Tongans live in New Zealand and they don’t all play rugby. There’s around 2,000 kiwis living in Ireland and look at how much influence that small number has on your rugby. One of them, Plastic Joe, even coaches your national team.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Biltong wrote:Show the proof, this kind of accusation has been thrown about often with scant proof

Its pretty easy to look each of them up Billtong. Doesnt take much research. Each guys wiki page for example shows what school they went to. There have been plenty of articles written on each of them. Shannon Frizel for example played under 17s football for Tonga. He was subsequently signed by Tasman after playing them in an under 19s Islander invitational side. He has been living in NZ since 2015.

Prove me wrong.

I am not making statements Collapse, I am suggesting that accusations of poaching against NZ is often unfounded.

What I don't get is someone who supports a country themselves rather astute in poaching players would have the audacity to accuse others.

From memory Argentina is just about the only tier one nation innocent of these practices.

There is a difference between "deliberate project style poaching" via the lure of big money and players moving to other countries with families for better opportunity.

The only South African that actually went on his own without being a big name and working himself up in the English system is Mouritz Botha.

The list of South African rugby players being poached is growing by the season.

Thats the point Billtong we hear Kiwis talk about the 5 Ireland squad players including Joey Carbery (Irish parents) born abroad all the time. I dont see much difference in whats happening in NZ. The Saffers and Kiwis come to Ireland for the exact same reasons as the islanders go and have been going to NZ.

Dont kid yourself the only reason Arentina rugby doesnt have its fair share of bum Kiwis and Aussies is because they dont have a strong well paid domestic league.

Well if you bow to my superior knowledge then you should also accept there is a difference in buying developed talent and developing talent, the former being poaching and the latter being development.

If SA and Australia hadn’t lost so much of its talent to rapacious NH clubs they’d be perennial top 1-3 sides with NZ. We’d collectively wipe the floor with the best of Europe. It’s hilarious when the likes of Guns beats his chest because Ireland have always been a mid-tier team. They’ve finally hit a purple patch and he’s gone way overboard and thinks it’ll last forever. Just need to look at their underwhelming U20s to see the future. Maybe they can snare another foreign coach after Plastic Joe or poach a bunch of foreign professional players that were considered bums in their home countries to fill the talent gaps.

Is that the sound of the world's smallest violin I hear or whinging sh fans?

Not whinging 7.5. We’re back to back RWC champions going for the three-peat. You should be grateful your clubs have done a good job of halting SA and Australian long-term development. More Australia though because I fancy SA tipping up British / Irish teams despite the headwinds.

Biltong wrote:
Well if you bow to my superior knowledge then you should also accept there is a difference in buying developed talent and developing talent, the former being poaching and the latter being development.

Both the NZ players I mentioned came to the attention of NZ sides after they played a match there at which point they were offered a contract or scholarship to come play in NZ. Im pretty sure you are applying double standards Billtong.

Most of the Irish players from overseas were developed in part in Ireland,  even Joe Schmidt has coached at all levels in Ireland before getting the top job. Its not like he was coaching the All Blacks before Ireland swooped in to buy him out of his contract with big bucks.

Ireland have 5 players born and raised overseas NZ have 5. Dont see a big difference.

ebop wrote:If SA and Australia hadn’t lost so much of its talent to rapacious NH clubs they’d be perennial top 1-3 sides with NZ. We’d collectively wipe the floor with the best of Europe. It’s hilarious when the likes of Guns beats his chest because Ireland have always been a mid-tier team. They’ve finally hit a purple patch and he’s gone way overboard and thinks it’ll last forever. Just need to look at their underwhelming U20s to see the future. Maybe they can snare another foreign coach after Plastic Joe or poach a bunch of foreign professional players that were considered bums in their home countries to fill the talent gaps.

Australia have plenty of overseas players playing for them over the years. I dont feel sorry for them at all.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is that the sound of the world's smallest violin I hear or whinging sh fans?

Haha yeah the world is against us.

I think it’s because you’re not very clever Guns. Most of the players playing for Ireland were professional players with established rugby careers in their home countries before they moved to Ireland. I don’t count Joe Carberry, whoever he is, because he moved to Ireland with his Irish parents as an 11 year old. The NZ players you speak of were kids when they moved to NZ and took a chance with scholarships to better their education.

Sounds an awful lot like whinging.

Ouch, that’s coming from a whinging pom. Still looking forward to the day England do their own haka 7.5. You’re almost there.

Why would we do a haka?

ebop wrote:I think it’s because you’re not very clever Guns. Most of the players playing for Ireland were professional players with established rugby careers in their home countries before they moved to Ireland. I don’t count Joe Carberry, whoever he is, because he moved to Ireland with his Irish parents as an 11 year old. The NZ players you speak of were kids when they moved to NZ and took a chance with scholarships to better their education.

No they weren't they all went to school in their respective countries and came to NZ when they were older. Look them up, its you that isn't very clever especially when you say you don't know who Joey Carbery is and then talk about his life, you total dope. For example:

Shannon Frizel
School - Apifo'ou College Tonga
Came to NZ in 2015 aged 19/20 when offered a contract by Tasman after Tasman played Pacific Island touring side.

Vaea Fifita
Tonga College, Tonga
Came to NZ with Tonga Schools side ahead of their tour to New Zealand. Impressive displays against New Zealand and Australia Secondary Schools Teams brought him to the attention of Tamaki College who offered him a rugby scholarship.

Do you know how old Naholo was when he came to NZ? None of these guys were kids when they came to NZ. They are all naturalised overseas talent.

I think there is a real holier than thou attitude at play here.

I have to say, I agree with ebop on this. All the home nations are guilty. I hate it when we cap players after 3 years residency, it stinks.

It really does feel that if these players were good enough, then they would be playing for the country of their birth, not their adopted country.

I have no problem with already capped player coming north to earn a living, but when we are signing "project" players, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth for me.

Lol, you know the difference between ‘school’ and ‘working for a living’ Guns. There is no holier than thou attitude, just facts.

Why would england do a haka ebop?

ebop wrote:Lol, you know the difference between ‘school’ and ‘working for a living’ Guns. There is no holier than thou attitude, just facts.

Is there a professional league in Tonga? Poaching from schools and offering them contracts and scholarships is even more than cynical IMO or at the very least very little difference in this practice and signing project players.

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:Lol, you know the difference between ‘school’ and ‘working for a living’ Guns. There is no holier than thou attitude, just facts.

Is there a professional league in Tonga? Poaching from schools is even more than cynical IMO.

NZ has a responsibility to improve the standards of Pacific Island nations it has a close relationship with and this includes offering scholarships to Pacific Island kids across many fields. Not just sport. So nice try but you’re being a bit ignorant of NZ’s role in the pacific.

ebop wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:Lol, you know the difference between ‘school’ and ‘working for a living’ Guns. There is no holier than thou attitude, just facts.

Is there a professional league in Tonga? Poaching from schools is even more than cynical IMO.

NZ has a responsibility to improve the standards of Pacific Island nations it has a close relationship with and this includes offering scholarships to Pacific Islanders across many fields. Not just sport. So nice try but you’re being a bit ignorant of NZ’s role in the pacific.

Oh boo hoo. NZ doesn't give a toss about the Pacific islands. NH sides play the island sides more often that NZ does both home and away. Ireland have played Fiji more often that NZ and have toured there. New Zealand have never toured Fiji. Pathetic.

There you go again, being ignorant. Auckland has the largest population of Pacific Islanders in the world. Instead of being ignorant why don’t you listen and educate yourself.

LordDowlais wrote:I have to say, I agree with ebop on this. All the home nations are guilty. I hate it when we cap players after 3 years residency, it stinks.

It really does feel that if these players were good enough, then they would be playing for the country of their birth, not their adopted country.

I have no problem with already capped player coming north to earn a living, but when we are signing "project" players, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth for me.

Have to agree with you here LordDowlais, it really does annoy me when project players are snapped up and it does take away opportunities for home grown players to get a chance. Sometimes I do wonder how much home grown talent has been missed due to these signings, talent that could have been developed if given the chance. I also do not understand how players can play for a country that they are not from, I am fiercely patriotic and could not imagine representing any other country than Ireland.

Hey ebop. Why would england do a haka?