England - the winter tours thread

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 08:55

First topic message reminder :

After the perfect ending to the summer, with Alastair Cook riding into the sunset with a hundred and James Anderson breaking Glenn McGrath's record to wrap up a 4-1 series win over the #1 side in the world...England head into a brave new world (in a mere 3 weeks time!) post Cook

Tour of Sri Lanka (Oct-Nov)
5 ODI's played between 10th October and 23rd October
1 T20i played on 27th October
3 Test matches played between 6th November and 23rd November

Tour of West Indies (Jan-Mar)
3 Test matches played between 23rd January and 9th February
5 ODI's played between 20th February and 2nd March
3 T20i's played between 5th March and 10th March

As ever there are many rumblings in the media on potential selections ahead of the Sri Lanka tour...

Rory Burns seems set to take Cook's spot
Will Jennings keep his place? Or will a Vince/Denly or complete wildcard be picked to open with him?
Which spinners do England take along with Moeen/Rashid?
Do Anderson/Broad get rested?
What pace options will be taken?

All questions that will be debated and answered in the coming weeks...so I start with a little competition between us selectors on v2...

Name your test squad for the series in Sri Lanka. Whoever gets the nearest to the actual squad, gets a pair of Ed Smith approved sunglasses Cool
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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 14:04

Alfie ...reading that Times article it seems hes more in the role we were discussing that Malan could fulfill than being seen a s a legit long term opener. More a horses for courses pick that gives them some flexibility to cover at the top, move Moeen around, and possibly only play two out and out spinners. In that context I can see the logic, the idea that hes in any way viable as a long term partner for Burns is lauaghable (poverty of other choices not withstanding)

If it is correct and Broad and Anderson go that really doesnt leave a lot of space for any other seamers to play.
Bearing in mind Broads place was getting whispered about at home when there were 4 seamers playing and more injuries ..combined with his poor record in Sri Lanka and Asia in general Im surprised to see him in. Anderson at leats has a decent (by medium pace seamers standards anyway ) record in Sri Lanka (averages 40). But really none of those pedestrian bowlers are likely to do much, the only  English one with a decent wicket taking record there is Caddick (9 wickets at 25). Otherwise its been almost entirely aggresive quicker strike bowlers and spinners whove taken the wickets on previous tours.
The likes of Broad, Woakes, Curran and Stokes are likely to toil, but at least the latter 3 give some lower order (in Stokes' case mid) batting. And if any of them ever are going to become a replacement for Anderson overseas then they need to get some more experience on these pitches.
England really do need to find a spot for that fast bowler as well though, whether its Overton or Stone. Not just for this tour but with an eye to the future as well. If the balls not moving off the seam (which is very hard with the Kookabura) then pace and height are a premium anywahere in the world (Curran woefuly lacks both).
Whilst both Anderson and Broad want to play, and Root wants their experience in the side, I dont think its the best thing for the long term devleopment of Englands bowling resources...and could even reduce their wicket taking threat if both play.


I agree with the suggestion in the article that theres little point in taking Pope. Its hard to see how he gets in the side unless theres injuries, and Vince gives more flexibility (covering anywhere in the top 6) should they really want a reserve. Pope would benefit more from actually getting to play with the Lions, whereas Vince doesnt really need that experience at this stage in his career. He was picked too soon and too high in the order for England, it shouldnt be seen as the door closing or that hes massively failed if hes not on the tour.


Dolphin ...seems a bit pointless to send Bess to me personaly. Again he'd be better off in the Lions...they just dont need 4 spinners ( plus three part timers) .

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 15:43

So the rumour mill was correct, and Joe Denly is in the squad. Rory Burns, too, no surprise there. Stone is more of a surprise, look forward to seeing him bowl. Glad to see Pope isn't forgotten about.

Jennings in - very disappointing. How many chances is he going to get?! No Vince, thank goodness.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 15:56

Jennings is (rightly, for me) surviving based on the lack of alternatives and the worry of two openers going at once.

He can lose his place here, or step up, but it’s just a sensible risk balance

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Post by Afro on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 16:04

Duty281 wrote:So the rumour mill was correct, and Joe Denly is in the squad. Rory Burns, too, no surprise there. Stone is more of a surprise, look forward to seeing him bowl. Glad to see Pope isn't forgotten about.

Jennings in - very disappointing. How many chances is he going to get?! No Vince, thank goodness.

Although expected, it is a relief to finally see Burns get the chance he deserves. Stone is clearly the current choice of trying to get express pace in the side. Thought was it was between him and Jamie Overton, and I wonder how much Overton's spell in the Blast might have added more doubt about him.
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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 16:31

Full Test squad
Joe Root (Yorkshire, capt), Moeen Ali (Worcestershire), James Anderson (Lancashire), Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire), Rory Burns (Surrey), Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire), Jos Buttler (Lancashire), Sam Curran (Surrey), Joe Denly (Kent), Keaton Jennings (Lancashire), Jack Leach (Somerset), Ollie Pope (Surrey), Adil Rashid (Yorkshire), Ben Stokes (Durham), Olly Stone (Warwickshire), Chris Woakes (Warwickshire).

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Post by guildfordbat on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 16:39

Afro wrote:
Duty281 wrote:So the rumour mill was correct, and Joe Denly is in the squad. Rory Burns, too, no surprise there. Stone is more of a surprise, look forward to seeing him bowl. Glad to see Pope isn't forgotten about.

Jennings in - very disappointing. How many chances is he going to get?! No Vince, thank goodness.

Although expected, it is a relief to finally see Burns get the chance he deserves. Stone is clearly the current choice of trying to get express pace in the side. Thought was it was between him and Jamie Overton, and I wonder how much Overton's spell in the Blast might have added more doubt about him.

Yep, although I'm not convinced that Burns will succeed at Test level, he could not have done more to earn the chance. A deserved call up.

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Post by jimbohammers on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 16:59

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Vince baffles me and I see his inclusion as a slap in the face to Malan. I’d rather see Stoneman, at least to have Burns come in with someone he knows and I also think Stoneman would do a good enough holdover job.

One is averaging 42 in Div One, the other 30 in Div Two. So not that baffling...

Anyway Vince doesn't get a call up, which is weird whether you rate him or not, as he was called up for the 4th test vs India.

Denly is an interesting pick. I think they've picked him because he can bowl some useful overs.
Jennings keeping his place is laughable.

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Post by JDizzle on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 17:56

Joe Denly has also played, and done very well, in both the PSL and BPL in the last year. No doubt that was factored in as a sign he must play spin well.

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Post by Afro on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 21:54

No doubt in my mind that Denly bowling a bit of leg spin was a decisive factor in his selection.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 23:33

Don’t think there can be many if any gripes about the squad bar Jennings inclusion - pretty much as good as we’re gonna get.

Interestingly I was at a talk with Strauss tonight at Norwich football club and a few little nuggets which are relevant to discussions;

Asked about who will keep - he explained that whilst logic says with Buttler at 7 and Bairstow at 5, with negligible difference between their glovework it should be Buttler keeping, that Bairstow having worked so hard to get better with his glovework to take them off him now would be a slap in the face - but he didn’t rule out Buttler keeping them

He was very non commital on Jennings - I think from his answer I can deduce he probably doesn’t believe in him (numerous times he said he needs a score in the very near future), sense he may agree with the public re: Jennings!

He also said about Stokes that obviously he did wrong but he was punished cricketing wise and everyone deserves a chance! Then quipped “but I have no idea how they looked at that video and found him not guilty” Laugh

And when asked about future England batsmen he was effusive in his praise of Pope - saying “he’ll be a gun bat for years to come”. He also mentioned Joe Clarke and Nick Gubbins as ones to keep an eye on.
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Post by Gooseberry on Sat 22 Sep 2018, 02:11

The last but does beg the question how did they go from Gubbins vying with Burns halfway through the summer to lets pick Denly ( but Gubbins is the one to watch)

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sat 22 Sep 2018, 08:40

jimbohammers wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Vince baffles me and I see his inclusion as a slap in the face to Malan. I’d rather see Stoneman, at least to have Burns come in with someone he knows and I also think Stoneman would do a good enough holdover job.

One is averaging 42 in Div One, the other 30 in Div Two. So not that baffling...

Anyway Vince doesn't get a call up, which is weird whether you rate him or not, as he was called up for the 4th test vs India.

Denly is an interesting pick. I think they've picked him because he can bowl some useful overs.
Jennings keeping his place is laughable.

I just can’t see why they’d keep going back and what he’s done here for England or abroad that would say “he could open.” Malan obviously has strengths to his game and was mentioned as this abroad specialist, and he hasn’t had half the chances Vince had. And he’s probably got the more calm and concentrated game you’d apply to opening. It seems forgotten that he top scored in the Ashes.

Vince seemed immediate cover as a known quantity before. I’d rate him lower down the order, but he’s one of about 50 who seem to be best suited to playing 5-7

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Post by alfie on Sat 22 Sep 2018, 09:51

A reasonable squad assuming they couldn't think of anyone better than Jennings... I really do hope he proves me wrong but cannot see it happening. Reading Smith trying to justify his selection I am moved to suggest he is in the wrong job : he should offer his services to Theresa May to try and explain what they are doing with Brexit Smile

I am not over the moon at the prospect of Moeen at three but at least it keeps Root at four. And five to seven look fairly covered , though I wish they would do the logical thing and try Stokes as a regular five ...as it appears Buttler isn't trusted above seven and surely by now it is clear Bairstow is far better at six/seven than higher up...

Bowling , well they have options , at least : I'd assume Anderson and Leach have to play and pick two others based on form and how the pitch looks. Not sure three spinners are essential - especially if Denly gets a game at the top of the order. I do not share the Goose theory that only tall fast bowlers can succeed on unhelpful pitches : Starc and Steyn have taken wickets there in recent years but that may also have to do with the fact that they are just very good bowlers. Anderson did well there on the last England trip. So I really don't rule out Curran (who is the man in possession - and form) or any of the other quicks. Would be interesting to see Stone - may depend a lot on how he does in the limited over stuff.

I do fear Pope is going to get very good at carrying trays of drinks...

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Post by LivinginItaly on Sat 22 Sep 2018, 16:02

Ok so it seems that the test squad doesn't really contain any surprises. Even if I don't necessarily agree with some of the picks (Jennings) I can't really make a case for who should replace him. Think maybe Pope is a waste of a place. If you want to give time experience send him to play with the lions. My team from the squad would be

Burns
Denly
Moeen
Root
Buttler
Stokes
Bairstow
Woakes
Curran
Leach
Anderson / Broad

I know they will never play Buttler at 5, but actually this summer he showed he is much better at adapting to the situation than Bairstow and is a good player of spin.

Both Woakes and Curran need to develop their skills on unhelpful tracks. Curran will provide rough for Moeen.

No need to play both Broad and Anderson. They can be rotated.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 22 Sep 2018, 18:10

I think the team will be a quite uninspiring:

Jennings, Denly, Moeen, Root, Bairstow, Buttler, Stokes, Leach, Woakes/Rashid, Broad and Anderson.

Can only see Burns, Pope and Stone coming in for the third test, if England are 2 down (or 2 up?!) by that stage. Curran will likely be harshly treated and behind Woakes in the pecking order. Whether England go with Leach and Rashid, or not, will come down to conditions.

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Post by guildfordbat on Sat 22 Sep 2018, 18:58

Of the squad selected, my own inclination would be to go:

Burns, Jennings, Denly, Root, Buttler, Stokes, Bairstow, Moeen, Curran, Leach and Anderson.

Most unlikely they'll do that at this stage but it ticks a fair few boxes for me.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat 22 Sep 2018, 19:02

Duty281 wrote:I think the team will be a quite uninspiring:

Jennings, Denly, Moeen, Root, Bairstow, Buttler, Stokes, Leach, Woakes/Rashid, Broad and Anderson.

Can only see Burns, Pope and Stone coming in for the third test, if England are 2 down (or 2 up?!) by that stage. Curran will likely be harshly treated and behind Woakes in the pecking order. Whether England go with Leach and Rashid, or not, will come down to conditions.

When did you lose the optimism? Think I prefer this new curmudgeonly persona.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 23 Sep 2018, 12:21

If England have a good team, I'm positive about their chances. If they don't, I'm not.

And England don't have a good test team, presently; outside of England, they could well be the worst test nation in the business (excluding Ireland). Hence why the 8/13 currently available on Sri Lanka to win the test series is an absolute gift.

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 08:15

alfie wrote: I do not share the Goose theory that only tall fast bowlers can succeed on unhelpful pitches :  Starc and Steyn have taken wickets there in recent years but that may also have to do with the fact that they are just very good bowlers.  Anderson did well there on the last England trip.  So I really don't rule out Curran (who is the man in possession - and form) or any of the other quicks. Would be interesting to see Stone - may depend a lot on how he does in the limited over stuff.

I do fear Pope is going to get very good at carrying trays of drinks...

I didnt say that at all. I said that pace and height are a premium for seamers when the balls not moving off the pitch (which is very difficult outside England with a kookabura after the opening overs). Players can be successful with just height or just pace, Steyn and Starc are two examples who are both genuinely quick unlike anyone form the core England squad ( and starcs 6 ft 6 to boot which kind of argues exactly against the point you were trying to make!) ...which is why its good to see Stone in. Steyns also good enough to make things happen with the ball even in very difficult circumstances, as is Anderson who overcomes his pace to a degree. But still averages 40 in Sri Lanka, which whilst being far better than most English seamers of his pace isn't going to win games. The seamers who have been effective for England there are Finn (when quick and aggressive), Caddick (tall), Gough (quick and aggressive), Harmison (quick tall and aggressive) ...all those guys have better records in Sri Lanka than the much feted Andersons medium pace. Whilst its a small sample of games to pick stats from the complete lack of any successful mid to low 80s short to medium height bowlers for England there is surely a sign that theres something in the theory that pace and height are useful as well as the technical ability that players like Steyn and Anderson (and Caddick) have.
Curran is short and slow, and not especially technically gifted. Hes a good bowler in county cricket, but not a great one. With a kookabura on a slow low wicket its hard to see how hes suddenly going to be a threat. All he really offers is the left arm variation and a chance to mix things up a bit. Now there is the argument that if hes ever going to learn how to bowl to an Anderson level ( and it took Anderson to his third tour to get it right in Sri Lanka) he needs to play, which has some merit. But you could say the same for Woakes...who is starting form a better position with both bat and ball (although I would say Curran looks to have more potential with the bat). Much better bowlers than Curran have absolutely sunk out there for England ( Sidebottom, Hoggard, Broad all really struggled)
Either way its unlikely either will be able to do more than break things up a bit and offer balance to the side. Anderson is capable of taking wickets there, and I fancy Stokes could nab the odd one with his aggressive play but needs to be used sparingly. Stone if theres room for him in the side could be a threat with his pace, but maybe its too much to expect of him to really make an impact there and hard to square a side that has him and Anderson in. England will need the spinners to perform, last time almost half the wickets were taken by Swann alone. But we have seen Rashid and Moeen are capable of troubling Asian batsmen in tests, and Leach in theory is the best attacking bowler of the 3. I personally would want to see England play all 3, rather than start with Denly just to hold up the batting. Rashid was Englands best bowler in the last Asia tour, dropping him for an average county batsman and part time bowler would be a bit off IMO, although it would enable them to pick the best wicket taking seamers without lengthening the tail too much and allow Moeen down the order to focus on his bowling.
Picking 4 seamers would be madness.

Options to me are:
Burns Jennings Moeen Root Bairstow Stokes Buttler Woakes/Curran Rashid Anderson Leach (Stone over Woakes/Curran to sacrifice batting depth for the best chance of 20 wickets, but I just dont see that happening)
Burns Jennings Denly Root Bairstow Stokes Buttler Moeen Stone Anderson Leach

Its likely they will rotate things about and swap Broad and Anderson, but Id be really disapointed to see both play. I dont see how it either gives the best chance of winning a game or helps the side long term. Having them around to help mentor the side and support Root is fine, but playing Broad to protect his ego not.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 08:34

Gooseberry wrote:
alfie wrote: I do not share the Goose theory that only tall fast bowlers can succeed on unhelpful pitches :  Starc and Steyn have taken wickets there in recent years but that may also have to do with the fact that they are just very good bowlers.  Anderson did well there on the last England trip.  So I really don't rule out Curran (who is the man in possession - and form) or any of the other quicks. Would be interesting to see Stone - may depend a lot on how he does in the limited over stuff.

I do fear Pope is going to get very good at carrying trays of drinks...

I didnt say that at all. I said that pace and height are a premium for seamers when the balls not moving off the pitch (which is very difficult outside England with a kookabura after the opening overs). Players can be successful with just height or just pace, Steyn and Starc are two examples who are both genuinely quick unlike anyone form the core England squad ( and starcs 6 ft 6 to boot which kind of argues exactly against the point you were trying to make!)   ...which is why its good to see Stone in. Steyns also good enough to make things happen with the ball even in very difficult circumstances, as is Anderson who overcomes his pace to a degree. But still averages 40 in Sri Lanka, which whilst being far better than most English seamers of his pace isn't going to win games. The seamers who have been effective for England there are Finn (when quick and aggressive), Caddick (tall), Gough (quick and aggressive), Harmison (quick tall and aggressive) ...all those guys have better records in Sri Lanka than the much feted Andersons medium pace. Whilst its a small sample of games to pick stats from the complete lack of any successful mid to low 80s short to medium height bowlers for England there is surely a sign that theres something in the theory that pace and height are useful as well as the technical ability that players like Steyn and Anderson (and Caddick) have.
Curran is short and slow, and not especially technically gifted. Hes a good bowler in county cricket, but not a great one. With a kookabura on a slow low wicket its hard to see how hes suddenly going to be a threat. All he really offers is the left arm variation and a chance to mix things up a bit. Now there is the argument that if hes ever going to learn how to bowl to an Anderson level ( and it took Anderson to his third tour to get it right in Sri Lanka) he needs to play, which has some merit. But you could say the same for Woakes...who is starting form a better position with both bat and ball (although I would say Curran looks to have more potential with the bat).  Much better bowlers than Curran have absolutely sunk out there for England ( Sidebottom, Hoggard, Broad all really struggled)
Either way its unlikely either will be able to do more than break things up a bit and offer balance to the side. Anderson is capable of taking wickets there, and I fancy Stokes could nab the odd one with his aggressive play but needs to be used sparingly. Stone if theres room for him in the side could be a threat with his pace, but maybe its too much to expect of him to really make an impact there and hard to square a side that has him and Anderson in. England will need the spinners to perform, last time almost half the wickets were taken by Swann alone. But we have seen Rashid and Moeen are capable of troubling Asian batsmen in tests, and Leach in theory is the best attacking bowler of the 3. I personally would want to see England play all 3, rather than start with Denly just to hold up the batting. Rashid was Englands best bowler in the last Asia tour, dropping him for an average county batsman and part time bowler would be a bit off IMO, although it would enable them to pick the best wicket taking seamers without lengthening the tail too much and allow Moeen down the order to focus on his bowling.
Picking 4 seamers would be madness.

Options to me are:
Burns Jennings Moeen Root Bairstow Stokes Buttler Woakes/Curran Rashid Anderson Leach (Stone over Woakes/Curran to sacrifice batting depth for the best chance of 20 wickets, but I just dont see that happening)
Burns Jennings Denly Root Bairstow Stokes Buttler Moeen Stone Anderson Leach

Its likely they will rotate things about and swap Broad and Anderson, but Id be really disapointed to see both play. I dont see how it either gives the best chance of winning a game or helps the side long term. Having them around to help mentor the side and support Root is fine, but playing Broad to protect his ego not.

Yes I would agree with much of that. The problem England have is that Broad and Anderson have been so good for them and they have come to depend so much on them. That makes it all the more difficult not to play them even if the pitch and conditions are not favourable to them. It is like the selectors have an addiction problem with them and need weaned off it. I cannot see it happening in Sri Lanka though.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 09:25

If you combine Anderson's efforts in the UAE/India/Sri Lanka (he didn't play in Bangladesh) his average comes out to around 29/30 I believe - which is decent, combined with the fact he generally changes his tact in those conditions to bowling tight lines and maidens, building pressure, rather than searching for wickets like he does in England.

Broad's average in UAE/Sri Lanka/India/Bangladesh comes out at 40+ I believe, which is more of a worry, and probably why they have selected Stone.

Actually think Curran might have some success in Sri Lanka. With his skiddy left arm whippy action he could be useful, sort of in a similar way to like Vaas was. Might not be this time around (he probably needs to get his pace upto 85mph consistently), but I think over time he'll be fine there
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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 09:38

...the one big thing for England on this tour (regardless of the format) is the hole Sri Lanka are following the West Indies down

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/24778687/the-full-text-angelo-mathews-letter-slc

It seems the "powers that be" are still intent on kicking an already declining team to bits. Sri Lanka will be lacking morale as much as ability.

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Post by alfie on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 10:45

Well now I really didn't intend to misquote the esteemed goose...I fear I was oversimplifying things a bit , sorry.
What I was getting at is that I am not convinced that pace alone -or indeed height - is necessarily going to achieve superior results on the kind of pitches being anticipated in Sri Lanka. The FinnCaddickGoughHarmison success claim is a little overblown I think : for one thing it takes in tours over a rather long time ...and on pitches which have varied considerably from tour to tour.(And how many matches has Finn played there anyway ...no wait , I just checked : he played one. And Gough and Caddick toured once ; while Harmison's figures are nearly the same as Hoggard's - also very small samples !
Anderson has only been there once since he really "clicked" as a Test bowler...and he did very well on that trip.  His poor average is down to a couple of Tests in 2003 and 2007 when he went for plenty.

None of the above proves anything. I merely contend that 1/ None of the available pace bowlers are likely to wreck the innings on their own 2/ although the spinners will need to do much of the heavy lifting there is still a need for a contribution from the quicks and 3/ Anderson is the most likely of any candidates to supply a measure of control and therefore contribute to wickets at the other end...apart from him I'd suggest there is no hard evidence that any of the other pace bowlers stand out as more suited to the (presumed) conditions...

Of course it all comes back to opinions about the skills of the bowlers etc...I'm with Olly in suspecting that Curran may do better than many expect : I may be totally wrong but I don't believe it is an unreasonable position to hold.  I wouldn't be keen to play Broad unless there is need for additional seam bowling ; and I am quite open to trying Stone if circumstances suggest the time is right.

Worth noting that last time England toured Sri Lanka they played both Swann and Panesar in the first Test and lost- whereupon they went with just Swann in the second and included Finn and Bresnan supporting Anderson .  And won.  Which again doesn't prove anything but does perhaps show that one cannot be too sweeping with statements about how to play in Sri Lanka...

To be quite honest I think England's chances on this tour depend largely on what they can do with the bat in alien conditions . If we are going to see pitches similar to the last Australian visit , for example , i I think the bowlers will more or less do a job whatever combination they actually end up with...but scoring runs will be the key. It won't
be easy...

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 24 Sep 2018, 22:29

Apologies as off topic for the winter tours but possibly relevant to England in summer 2019.

I've always felt that Tom Westley was jettisoned too quickly from the Test side, particularly when opportunities continued to be given to other newbies like Stoneman and Malan. Anyway, just to say I saw him score an impressive undefeated 93 today against a Morkel led Surrey attack. His innings was thoughtful combining patience and powerful driving. Oh, and just saying - he batted number 3. Wink

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 25 Sep 2018, 08:17

guildfordbat wrote:Apologies as off topic for the winter tours but possibly relevant to England in summer 2019.

I've always felt that Tom Westley was jettisoned too quickly from the Test side, particularly when opportunities continued to be given to other newbies like Stoneman and Malan. Anyway, just to say I saw him score an impressive undefeated 93 today against a Morkel led Surrey attack. His innings was thoughtful combining patience and powerful driving. Oh, and just saying - he batted number 3. Wink

...but another who's generally had a very quiet time since getting his chance.
Theres a few like Vince, Pope and of course very much Moeen ( and well Bell I guess) who've done whats been asked of them since losing their place but a much longer list of players who have crashed horribly after their time with England ( Habib the most extreme example, although that was initially injury driven) . Indeed none of Cooks opening partners have ever really looked like earning a recall, aside form Jennings and that didn't really work out

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Post by king_carlos on Wed 26 Sep 2018, 18:54

Lions squads announced:

Four-day squad: Dom Bess (Somerset), Sam Billings (Kent), Joe Clarke (Worcestershire), Nick Gubbins (Middlesex), Max Holden (Middlesex), Tom Kohler-Cadmore (Yorkshire), Liam Livingstone (Lancashire), Craig Overton (Somerset), Jamie Overton (Somerset), Matt Parkinson (Lancashire), Jamie Porter (Essex), Jason Roy (Surrey), Josh Tongue (Worcestershire - subject to medical clearance), Amar Virdi (Surrey), Mark Wood (Durham).

Limited-overs squad: Dom Bess (Somerset), Joe Clarke (Worcestershire), Alex Davies (Lancashire), Lewis Gregory (Somerset), Nick Gubbins (Middlesex), Sam Hain (Warwickshire), Max Holden (Middlesex), Tom Kohler-Cadmore (Yorkshire), Liam Livingstone (Lancashire), Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire), Craig Overton (Somerset), Jamie Overton (Somerset), Matt Parkinson (Lancashire), Jamie Porter (Essex), Mark Wood (Durham).

I'm really not sure what to make of Foakes being left out of the 4 day squad. Billings is a less accomplished batsman in the longer form and incomparable with the gloves. It seems Joe Clarke will need to bring his gloves as a reserve keeper as well...

Tom Kohler-Cadmore has turned his season round impressively after he was struggling for first XI opportunities early on after moving to Yorks.

Matt Parkinson looks a tidy young leg spinner, has good control for a young leggie.

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Post by JDizzle on Wed 26 Sep 2018, 19:17

The Foakes thing is weird. Not really sure what they are thinking there. Obviously Ed Smith is not a fan, probably because of his slightly nonsense theory of getting runs at the Oval count for less.

Excited to see how Josh Tongue goes for the 4-day game - he definitely has a little something about him, if he can shake off the injury bug. On another Worcs note, I wonder how close Pat Brown was to making the Limited over squad?

Banging on about Worcs (I haven't even got to the disgraceful decision to have no Ed Barnard in either squad!), watch out for Dillon Pennington next year. Has had praise lavished on him by Morne Morkel after playing Surrey and allegedly also had Kane Williamson in pieces when they played Yorkshire. Only 19 and definitely one to watch for the future - another who has already had a bad back injury though. Seems to be common place for young quickies these days.

A note on Parkinson too - I saw him play live in a List A game earlier this year, and he bowled lovely (took 3 for 30 odd his 10) but his fielding was dreadful. He could barely get the ball in on the full to the keeper from the fine leg boundary, and looking at his batting numbers he is very much a one dimensional cricketer. He will need to improve both if he is to push for higher honours.

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Post by king_carlos on Wed 26 Sep 2018, 21:14

Amar Virdi is in the same boat with needing to improve his bowling and fielding.

Dom Bess is a way ahead of both in that regard.

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Post by king_carlos on Wed 26 Sep 2018, 21:21

It's also interesting that Dom Bess is in the limited overs Lions squad given he barely makes the Somerset side in 50 or 20 over cricket.

I certainly feel for Stephen Parry there. Will Beer, Danny Briggs and Max Waller are continually putting in very consistent T20 performances as well.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 26 Sep 2018, 21:24

The rumour is Foakes asked for a rest this winter to rehab a lingering injury - not sure how true
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Post by guildfordbat on Thu 27 Sep 2018, 07:54

Just went you thought it might be safe to go back in the water Wink - Burns was in all sorts of trouble against Harmer bowling into the rough at the Oval on Tuesday. He obviously still thoroughly deserves the opportunity in Sri Lanka but ... well, we shall see.

Meanwhile, 2 possibilities for summer 2019 - Westley and Sibley - both ended the season with more tons. I'm not a fan of Sibley - his footwork seems slow against the quicker ball pitched up, frequently going lbw whilst, character wise, he gave the impression at Surrey that he thought his double ton as a teenager gives him a ticket for life - but if he carries on in Div One as he's just left Div Two, he'll be hard to ignore. 3 centuries in his last 4 innings whilst Westely has got two tons and a fifty in his last 4 knocks.

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 27 Sep 2018, 08:25

Rehab is the only explanation that makes sense regarding Foakes. Regardless its the third reserve spot anyway, so not one thats a big deal in short term. Although on that basis youd think a youngster would get the spot ahead of Billings but hey.
Bess barely makes the Somerset side in first class either, most of his cricket this year has been second XI, but I guess he did enough with his tests to show he has the temperament, plus a spinner who can bat a bit is pretty handy for balancing a side. Does seem t Theres a lot of depth to Englands spinner resources all of a sudden though with two promising youngsters in that 4 day side, 3 in test squad, another in the ODI squad, and Crane injured.. Still noone who stands out as world class by any stretch, but at least they have been playing this summer (Bess aside) and taking wickets on home tracks. Then theres still names coming out who couldve been selected, without going into the 40 year olds like we did a couple of winters ago. Less foreign spinners and some more helpful conditions for at least part of the season have maybe benefited this generation.
Not much to shout about in the batting reserves, Gubbins probably the one whos closest to knocking on the test door and arguably only missed out to Denly this winter because he can bowl some handy spin. Roy interesting too, he barely played CC this season but made quite an impact when he did. The others to me look a fair way off the test team unless theres a fundamental shift in the way its structured away from the all rounders. Its been a tough year for batting so hard for anyone to really stand out aside from the Surrey lads who made the test team.
No place for Malan seems rough on him.


Sri Lanka have named their test squad...5 spinners. Any questions about what type of pitches to expect should've been answered there. Its pretty much all Sri Lanka have to offer, a poor side all round now. Even Mathews has faded, one test century since August 2015. Two things will decide this series...Englands ability to take 20 wickets and their batsmens ability to cope with constant spin.

Dinesh Chandimal (capt.), Dimuth Karunaratne, Kaushal Silva, Kusal Mendis, Angelo Mathews, Niroshan Dickwella, Dhananjaya de Silva, Roshen Silva, Dilruwan Perera, Rangana Herath, Malinda Pushpakumara, Akila Dananjaya, Suranga Lakmal, Kasun Rajitha, Lakshan Sandakan, Lahiru Kumara

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 27 Sep 2018, 08:44

Think you're underrating Sri Lanka a tad. They're a very decent side on their own turf, and with Chandimal restored, they're an even stronger side than that which demolished South Africa earlier this year.

I'm going for a 2-0 Sri Lanka win.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 27 Sep 2018, 09:08

king_carlos wrote:Amar Virdi is in the same boat with needing to improve his bowling and fielding.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 27 Sep 2018, 09:17

guildfordbat wrote:I'm not a fan of Sibley - his footwork seems slow against the quicker ball pitched up, frequently going lbw whilst, character wise, he gave the impression at Surrey that he thought his double ton as a teenager gives him a ticket for life - but if he carries on in Div One as he's just left Div Two, he'll be hard to ignore. 3 centuries in his last 4 innings whilst Westely has got two tons and a fifty in his last 4 knocks.

Will Rhodes actually did better opening for Warwickshire across the whole season (4 tons, 4 half tons and just short of 1000 runs at 44 average) and is easily the best performing Yorkie opener this season. However whiel Yorkshire shoudl have given him more chances at teh top of the order (we seemed to treat him as a lower order all rounder) I cannot see him as a test player either.

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Post by wisden on Thu 27 Sep 2018, 13:06

Sri Lanka have named 5 spinners in their squad! 3 of which will defo play, they will only go one quick and he won't bowl more than 10 overs in any innings, the sri lanka way at home

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 27 Sep 2018, 13:40

Yeah as we've said all summer ahead of this tour, Sri Lanka ain't preparing anything other than huge turners from ball one - three day games maximum. A far cry from going to the sub continent and playing on pitches that were 600 plays 700!
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Post by guildfordbat on Fri 28 Sep 2018, 11:25

LondonTiger wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:I'm not a fan of Sibley - his footwork seems slow against the quicker ball pitched up, frequently going lbw whilst, character wise, he gave the impression at Surrey that he thought his double ton as a teenager gives him a ticket for life - but if he carries on in Div One as he's just left Div Two, he'll be hard to ignore. 3 centuries in his last 4 innings whilst Westely has got two tons and a fifty in his last 4 knocks.

Will Rhodes actually did better opening for Warwickshire across the whole season (4 tons, 4 half tons and just short of 1000 runs at 44 average) and is easily the best performing Yorkie opener this season. However whiel Yorkshire shoudl have given him more chances at teh top of the order (we seemed to treat him as a lower order all rounder) I cannot see him as a test player either.

Hi Tiger - I'm in no position to pass any judgement about Rhodes but my comment above about Sibley followed on from an earlier post in which I likened his approach to opening and run scoring - based on cautious, watchful and patient run accumulation - to that of Cook. In that regard at least, he could be viewed as a natural successor to Cook (as is or, sadly perhaps, was Hameed). That doesn't of cause mean Sibley has got the talent and consistency which will also be required. I rather doubt he has but 3 more centuries in his next 4 Championship innings would generate a lot of interest.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 28 Sep 2018, 11:44

guildfordbat wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:I'm not a fan of Sibley - his footwork seems slow against the quicker ball pitched up, frequently going lbw whilst, character wise, he gave the impression at Surrey that he thought his double ton as a teenager gives him a ticket for life - but if he carries on in Div One as he's just left Div Two, he'll be hard to ignore. 3 centuries in his last 4 innings whilst Westely has got two tons and a fifty in his last 4 knocks.

Will Rhodes actually did better opening for Warwickshire across the whole season (4 tons, 4 half tons and just short of 1000 runs at 44 average) and is easily the best performing Yorkie opener this season. However whiel Yorkshire shoudl have given him more chances at teh top of the order (we seemed to treat him as a lower order all rounder) I cannot see him as a test player either.

Hi Tiger - I'm in no position to pass any judgement about Rhodes but my comment above about Sibley followed on from an earlier post in which I likened his approach to opening and run scoring - based on cautious, watchful and patient run accumulation - to that of Cook. In that regard at least, he could be viewed as a natural successor to Cook (as is or, sadly perhaps, was Hameed). That doesn't of cause mean Sibley has got the talent and consistency which will also be required. I rather doubt he has but 3 more centuries in his next 4 Championship innings would generate a lot of interest.

Intersting article here about the apparent source of his sudden imporvement. The same coach Cook worked with before the Oval test ....

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/8204/report/1127737/day/2/warwickshire-vs-kentcounty-championship-division-two

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Post by guildfordbat on Fri 28 Sep 2018, 11:55

Thanks, goose.

I obviously need to do more reading - that's another article which had passed me by! Interesting, as you say. Not least for me as I remember Gary Palmer as a pretty ordinary bits and pieces player. I'm sure you would have been even less complimentary if around then. Wink

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 28 Sep 2018, 11:59

Haha it ssays pretty much that in the article Guilford...but it goes to show that the best coaches arent always the best players and vice versa.


Back on topic ... Mathews has been booted from the ODI squad altogether after being blamed for running out several of his team mates due to having the fitness levels of a post lunch Gatting.

And absoluetly not because he wrote that open letter to the board Whistle

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 28 Sep 2018, 13:16

Central Contracts announced:

Test-match contracts: Moeen Ali (Worcestershire), James Anderson (Lancashire), Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire), Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire), Jos Buttler (Lancashire), Sam Curran (Surrey), Adil Rashid (Yorkshire), Joe Root (Yorkshire), Ben Stokes (Durham), Chris Woakes (Warwickshire).

ODI/T20 contracts: Moeen Ali (Worcestershire), Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire), Jos Buttler (Lancashire), Alex Hales (Nottinghamshire), Eoin Morgan (Middlesex), Liam Plunkett (Surrey), Adil Rashid (Yorkshire), Joe Root (Yorkshire), Jason Roy (Surrey), Ben Stokes (Durham), David Willey (Yorkshire), Chris Woakes (Warwickshire), Mark Wood (Durham).

Incremental contract:
Tom Curran (Surrey).

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 28 Sep 2018, 13:26

Wood gets an ODI contract - not sure about that...

Otherwise as expected really!
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Post by guildfordbat on Fri 28 Sep 2018, 14:02

Hi folks - can someone please remind me what an Incremental contract - as awarded only to Tom Curran - means? Thanks.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 28 Sep 2018, 14:55

Its essentially a pay as you go contract. They will only pay his extra increments when hes used, and he will be payed as normal.by the county.
The others are garaunteed 12 month extra cash and fully paid by the ECB whether they play or not

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Post by guildfordbat on Fri 28 Sep 2018, 15:36

Gooseberry wrote:Its essentially a pay as you go contract. They will only pay his extra increments when hes used, and he will be payed as normal.by the county.
The others are garaunteed 12 month extra cash and fully paid by the ECB whether they play or not

Cheers, goose. Is that though really any different from someone else called up from his county side to play a Test or ODI? Such a player would surely continue to get his usual whack from his county plus an additional amount from England for the call up, wouldn't they? Possibly the incremental amount is more?

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Post by Jetty on Sat 29 Sep 2018, 01:33

5 points for a test match, 2 for an ODI/T20. If they get twenty points in a year, then they get a given a better contract. Can't see why Tom Curran isn't getting an ODI contract. His brother is likely to be a millionaire while he is only 20.

2018
Tom 1 Tests 5 points
7 ODIs 14
3 T20s 6

Incremental contract a few years ago one off payment of £50,000
Saw this just now so don't know what is going on.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-5431145/England-stars-dismayed-ECB-scraps-points-system.html

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Post by Gooseberry on Sat 29 Sep 2018, 15:11

Ok so as I read it Curran gets the 50k because hes been given the discretionary contract, whereas if say Darren Stevens were tonplay every test and ODI this season he wouldnt get that bonus because he isnt contracted,. Previously he wouldve under the points system.

In practical terms it makes little difference, its just a decent chunk of cash for a fewnpmayers who unexpectedly get to play a lot.

The article suggests its because they cant afford it with the bigger pool of players under central contracts now ...which makes some sense. Its also not a presictable and set cost which annoys the hell out of finance people.
Add to that Bayliss has made it clear he intends to use T20s as a chance to play feinge players, some of whome might get the ofd fame in another format too through injury, I guess they want to avoid having to pay out to real outsiders.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 05 Oct 2018, 13:36

England ease to a comfortable D/L win over a Sri Lanka Board XI that was pretty experienced in the batting but much less so in the bowling.

England used 7 bowlers in total - with the 27 overs from the spinners much cheaper than the 23 from seam. Olly Stone got a run-out delivering tidy figures. Woakes was expensive while Wood took some tap at the end.

Both openers will be disappointed to be out to seamers. Root and Morgan had valuable time at the crease.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 08 Oct 2018, 09:22

Lots of rain about in Sri Lanka at the moment (it is rainy season after all...) - so looks like this series is going to be disrupted quite badly.

But with the first game scheduled for Wednesday, what are our XIs? Mine is below;

Roy
Bairstow
Hales
Root
Morgan
Buttler
Stokes
Moeen
Woakes
Rashid
Stone

For me, I would much rather play Hales as an extra batsman, than say Wood as an extra bowler because I think that will have much more of an impact on the game. Root, especially in sub continent conditions, can do a fine job as a 6th bowling option if needed (and showed this in Australia last winter too). Would like to see Stone given the new ball and a run in the side
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