England Squad for Autumn Series - My take on who's in and why?

First topic message reminder :

It gets picked tomorrow.

My squad for the autumn series:

Brown (still the best defensive FB by far).
Daly (Must be in first XV. With only 1 year out from the WC, just stick with him at wing or else bet the house and put him at 13).
Nowell (back up wing. Injury hasn't helped him).
May (1st choice now with Daly).
Ashton (with Watson out good to see how he performs, albeit short of match practice).
Cokanasiga (Very raw, but looks a better bet than Solomona/Roko/Yarde as a brick house wing that EJ needs in his armoury).

Tuilagi (looking fit, fingers crossed...EJ needs to get that witch doctor into camp).
Twelvetrees (in for Te'o who is just back from injury and needs time. Twelvetrees has been in impressive form dovetailing with Cips in 10/12 axis. Experienced, a goalkicker, strong in tackle and fleet of foot).
Slade (utility back with pace and left foot kicking option. Prefer to see him develop his game at 12 but looks like EJ sees him as a 13).
Farrell. (This is the year to show us that he deserves to be recognised as the best fly-half England has ever had; next to JW)

Ford. (urgently needs competition for his place)
Cipriani (is he the man to bring out the best in this England backline? Yes!).
Youngs. (needs to maintain consistency and get back to his sniping best)
Care. (Is he better than Robson?)
Robson (Care needs to feel some heat).

B. Vunipola. (Indispensable. Seems to have lost more weight)
Hughes (just back from injury but too good to ignore as back up 8. Simmonds is too small and better 7s are already in place).
T. Curry. (Lead contender for 7 jersey with a better game in the loose than Underhill)
Underhill (Curry and Underhill to fight it out for the 7 jersey and if neither prevail, then bring back Haskell).
Robshaw (under threat from Shields or Rhodes who are both more athletic and comparable in terms of work rate).
Shields (hope that cheekbone heals in time. In for his highly credible tackling and carrying stats in SR).
Rhodes (Flanker/Lock who can displace Kruis and give Robshaw a run for the 6 jersey).

Lawes. (always 1st choice)
Launchbury. (needs to show he is a better player than Itoje.)
Itoje. (a big season after losing steam)

Cole. (well rested. Should see him back to his scrummaging best)
Sinckler. (needs to grow a little wiser on the pitch)
Williams. (could displace Sinckler as bench option)
Marler. (superior to Vunipola in the scrum and should start matches)
Vunipola. (needs to get back to his rampaging best. Should draw inspiration from Codie Taylor's recent displays in the loose)
Hepburn (in for injured Genge).
Hartley. (once again, he needs to prove himself.)
George. (perfect bench option)
Cowan-Dickie. (just got injured so may have to sit it out, in which case Dunn is a good option)

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wades leaving rugby full stop then apparently.

Runs very fast and can't tackle - his skill set is actually very well suited to a game in which the Offense and Defense are completely separate teams. I wish him good luck, though it's often harder to convert than people expect.

Really not sure what position Wade could play. Too small to be a running back so really only wide receiver is an option, but could he catch a ball coming over his shoulder?

LondonTiger wrote:Really not sure what position Wade could play. Too small to be a running back so really only wide receiver is an option, but could he catch a ball coming over his shoulder?

Kick off returner and that is probably about it. What a waste!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wades leaving rugby full stop then apparently.

I see he is leaving rugby to play in the NFL. That would be interesting if he got a contract.

lostinwales wrote:Dan Robson is listed amongst the unavailable, so I am hoping Wigglesworth is only there for back up purposes.

You do sometimes wonder though. Why one Curry and not the other? (Would we notice if they were switched?)

I don't know why people say this (not having a dig liw, I see it a lot). Tom is a genuine 7 with International caps and some cracking showings for England. Ben is not capped and was with the U20's in the summer, he's also a bit more of a 6/6.5. Tom is a level above currently and the likely starting openside, Ben hasn't really been in the frame at all.

Sale don't get the airtime that other clubs do and haven't featured in the top tier ERC for some years, so not in front of people as much. Tom is a class above Ben at the moment, although Ben may just be a slower developer. I just hope Tom doesn't suffer from injuries/burnout from going into the full England team when he is so young and still physically developing.

Funnily enough, I see Ben as more of the groundhog type 7 while Tom is slightly less adept in that area but has a bit more about him in terms of tackling power!

Manu's back then...

Many had a quality game apparently.

So I'm calling it now, Tuilagi to be England's player of the series...

Or injured first game.

Also from what I've read May was very good on his return, scored a good try, and Cole is responding to getting dropped.

yappysnap wrote:Many had a quality game apparently.

So I'm calling it now, Tuilagi to be England's player of the series...

Or injured first game.

Also from what I've read May was very good on his return, scored a good try, and Cole is responding to getting dropped.

I agree with all of that apart from Cole. He's still brilliant at scrum time. But the rest of his game seemed to consist of slowly jogging round the pitch and a couple of lazy penalties ( now I'm willing to admit I'm wrong but the only time I noticed him was when the above happened, maybe I missed a lot of unseen work)

PS I know for one try it was TPN s fault for not being tight enough but Cole didn't put much effort in to closing any gap or chasing back

Cole will not play for England again I feel. He is too slow now. However he secured 2 turnovers yesterday, carried much more than usual (including key carries providing quick ball in the build up to two tries) and made his fringe tackles. He knows he is too slow to chase down a back, So is concentrating on getting to the right place for the next phase.

I think England are going to shock NZ.

Well the discussion of should cips be in the squad is a mute point now after that red card. Would have missed the SA game most likely and possibly NZ.

moot

Agree on that LT. I've been a big critic of Cole but he was very good yesterday. Problem with Cole is he's from a different generation of props, he wasn't expected to run 100m in 11 seconds and do one handed offloads like today.

Ashton hatrick on his Sale debut. I wouldn't put him amongst my first choices but he might be useful if used in the right way

Well after Brown, Ashton has to be next in line for full back. He makes a very good bench option if not in the starting 15.

Daly surely starts at 15 though? Don't particularly trust Ashtons kicking either.

Problem is Daly has spent very little time there. Ashton spent a whole season there when at Toulon.

From what I've heard Ashton was able to okay as an extra Wong at Toulon, I wouldn't let his position fool you he's a winger. Brilliant poacher and tracker of the ball but he still gets found out in defense and his kicking is poor.

If Brown was out then putting Ashton at 15 would be courting a Monye to 15 situation all over again, looked fine for Quins but Int is another matter. I'd stick with Daly, he's proven at Int at 15 and needs the exposure.

Daly played fullback for wasps when Willie le roux was with south Africa. He did OK nothing stand out though. Would give him the opportunity to find space and exploit it and he has a monster kick as well.

Just thinking, perhaps Falcons and Exeter's respective Euro results show Baxter isn't quite ready for International coaching yet. Exeter for all their skills andeague success have underachieved in Europe and look mentally fragile every game. Newcastle while botttom of the league have just tonked two very good french teams.

yappysnap wrote:Just thinking, perhaps Falcons and Exeter's respective Euro results show Baxter isn't quite ready for International coaching yet. Exeter for all their skills andeague success have underachieved in Europe and look mentally fragile every game. Newcastle while botttom of the league have just tonked two very good french teams.

I was thinking that too. Not that it matters, as Borthwick is the anointed one.

Aye I wouldn't like to see him given the top job any time soon Yappy. Not only do I agree with what you said, I'm not actually sure if the qualities he has are really applicable to international rugby.

He's done an incredible job of taking a team lacking star players and having it perform greater than the sum of its parts. But this is using a simplified game plan that took 5 or 6 years to peak and it's never looked effective above premiership level.

International coaching is much more about bringing together a scattered group of stars and devising multiple game plans to get the best use of them. It would also be nice if it could work within a single WC cycle.

Mark Wilson can't have done himself any harm today having made the squad for the AIs. Gary Graham must be in the frame for any potential injury call-up as well.

On Exeter coaches I'd be very interested to see how Ali Hepher gets on in the top job when he inevitably moves onto one. Having worked under Baxter so successfully for so long you'd presume he must be eyeing the next step sometime soon.

Mark Wilson was so much better than Brad Shields was a day earlier. I hope EJ seriously considers him, though I fear he will play a Saracen at 6.

Thought shields was tremendous in the 2nd half. Quality carrying and tackling. As pointed out on rugby tonight though he keeps jumping out of defence. Tactics of some sort but it's causing problems.

Shields handling looked good but he was anonymous that first half.

LondonTiger wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Just thinking, perhaps Falcons and Exeter's respective Euro results show Baxter isn't quite ready for International coaching yet. Exeter for all their skills andeague success have underachieved in Europe and look mentally fragile every game. Newcastle while botttom of the league have just tonked two very good french teams.

I was thinking that too. Not that it matters, as Borthwick is the anointed one.

You think so? Hhmmmm

Honestly if no English coach actually seems ready, and I'm not sure any do. I'd happily take a coach from abroad if they were the best choice, why rush an English coach and potentially mess everything up?

englishborn wrote:Well after Brown, Ashton has to be next in line for full back. He makes a very good bench option if not in the starting 15.

If Ashton ever ends up as England's second choice full back, then something will have gone bady wrong with our squad selection.

Ashton may well get a call up or a shot in the Japan game (in my mind as a wing or 15) - depending on injuries.
Brown and Daly I am sure will both get a lot of minutes in the other tests.

On the note of injuries - as far as I am aware most of the squad came through the weekends fixtures without further problems.
On a bright note -
Underhill looked OK when he came on for Bath.
Tuilagi looked a bit more like his old self.
Cole looked much more like his old self (although not in latest squad)

Sir Clive recommends England playing Itoje at 6 as he has been playing well in that position for Sarries. Most of us think he should remain in the 2nd row, but anyone else now thinking it might be a decent option? Kruis and Lawes in the engine room with Maro at 6 and able to pack down in the 2nd row as required at times?

Its been mentioned before that the Sarries pack is built pretty much on power. There are very few breakdown guys in there - game plan is built on blasting the ruck and tackle count rather than genuinely getting over the ball and forcing a turnover. (before anyone says - I haven't got stats to back this up - its a perception).

Now, this works very well for Sarries in the club game - but internationally we have seen in the 6N last season England got bossed at the breakdown.
I cant help feel that we need to develop a back row with more strings to their bow.

If Underhill is fit then surely he will start. Curry needs more chances. No.8 issues are well documented.

Having Itoje (or Lawes) able to deputise in the back row is a real benefit for Eddie that allows him to cover other positions with the 'finishers'. But I would rather they both started in the engine room, and we start with natural back rowers.

On a side note: Itojes try over the weekend was excellent - he's got a lot more gas than I had previously thought.

Itoje can work in a back row if there's speed elsewhere there. Lawes Hughes Robshaw or whatever it was was horrendously one paced. There about 6 different combos jones could go with for sa.

I think Itoje works in the backrow when you have a power (bosh it up straight) centre like Brad Barritt to get the ball over the gain line and in front of the forwards.  It makes it a lot easier for players to hit a ruck or maul going forward than it does having to go backwards and then in.  Front 5 forwards tend to give away penalties coming in from the side, because they lack the pace and dexterity to get round the corner and in.

In an emergency I could see it is worthwhile playing an experienced second row in the backrow, but you would have to think that a Shields/Rhodes/Wilson are better 6s than they are.  If Itoje/Lawes/etc were genuinely great 6s they would be playing there fulltime for their clubs and not be stuck in the second row.  In the same way that you can play a winger in the centres at club level, you won't get away with it at international level.

Plus without a fit Manu or Teo, we don't have a centre (or winger coming in) who is capable of boshing it up straight.

I hope Itoje sticks at second row. I'm sure he could do a job in the back row, but I think you weaken your second row by not including him in there and I'm not sure if the back row will be sufficiently improved to compensate.

robbo277 wrote:I hope Itoje sticks at second row. I'm sure he could do a job in the back row, but I think you weaken your second row by not including him in there and I'm not sure if the back row will be sufficiently improved to compensate.

I suspect that although his top speed mat be good, he's probably slower at accelerating than Alex Cuthbert

I am hopeful that the lacklustre performance from Rhodes at the weekend means we will not see him make his debut. I still feel we may see a Sarrie at 6, but maybe Itoje. I hope not.

I would like to see a back row of Morgan, Curry and Wilson against the SANZAR teams and maybe experiment against Japan with Mercer, Curry and Underhill.

I keep flip flapping on who i think will be best tbh. Currently in my head I would.mind seeing underhill at 6 curry and mercer.

Underhill/Mercer/Curry would seriously lack carrying imo.

I'd like to see Armand/Curry/Morgan but Armand is obviously not fancied in the slightest.

On the Falcons....could we see Kyle Cooper be a bolter for the WC squad, he's eligible in the Summer. I think he's possibly the best hooker in the Prem and an absolute menace at the breakdown, 2 turnovers again at the weekend, all in 40mins.

I'm now intrigued why you think underhill or mercer lack in carrying stakes. Underhill has come.on leaps and bounds there. Last couple of weeks we've seen that from the bench. In terms of mercer when doesn't he make metres? Is it perception that he doesn't out muscle people? He still carries in heavy traffic and uses his feet to ensure he gets to and past the gain line. Morgan has the bulk to make it look like he carries hard but both look for the gaps.

Underhill carries hard but doesn't make many yards, he's more of a drive it up kind of option. He's never going to draw in many defenders or burst through tackles, but adds a decent option around the fringes, much like Robshaw. He made 4m(4 carries) at the weekend and 8m (2 carries) the weekend before.

Mercer is a strong lad and certainly punches above his weight...a big carrier, no. He's got good gas in the wide channels and can spot a break. I wouldn't be against starting him (at 6 rather than at 8), but I think we need to balance out the backrow to accommodate him with a heavy duty carrier.

Morgan has the bulk to make it look like he carries hard but both look for the gaps.

Yes he has the bulk and yes he can look for gaps. Difference for me is he can truck it and can carry from the base when retreating extremely well. Watch him at the weekend (or maybe the week before) when Gloucester were on the backfoot in the scrum. He was very safe from the pickup and made some vital yards allowing time for the pack to get back behind and not get counter rucked.

Again, it's all about balance. I'd happily see Mercer, Underhill or Curry start, but we need a heavyweight option to back them up. If we had Armand at 6, I think we'd perhaps get away with Mercer at 8.

I don't think their games back that theory up sarge. Mercer makes the same ground in a similar ish way. No point in talking of armond but strong carriers is shield or Rhodes then probably the former.

I don't see how they don't back it up tbh, perhaps we see different things. Mercer is never going to be a Billy type player, it's not his game. We need big carrying options against big defences, I can't see any in that backrow and not too many in the likely front 5. 8 is obviously the best position to have this due to time on the ball etc.

Because morgan isn't a carrier like Hughes or vunipola either. Yes he's big that's where it ends. I'm sure if picked he'll make metres but it will be kick returns and pop passes to him.

But he can make the hard yards if required, more so than other options anyway. There's only one Billy, but Hughes isn't far away.

If you don't think he is, I'm not going to change your mind.

Ditto! Suspect we'll see the ball kept alive more by the pack in the absence of Marler vunipola s and Launchbury else heavy lifting will be george shield and probably Kruis. We do have 3 hard runners in the backs though this time around.

It's going to be a fair change from the way we've previously played then...but, we need to adapt to life without Billy I guess.

So Manu to start, alongside Farrell I guess, I'm happy with that. I'd like to see Manu at 12 too and Loz outside him(big fan of this lad).

I like lozowski off the bench I think. I would.like slade to continue within the side. Maybe that means sliding Farrell to fly half. Don't know how much influence mitchell may have on how jones decides to set up either.